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JWT
June 22, 2008, 01:57 PM
Went to the trap club this morning. A young man was shooting with a new Remington autoloader to the left of me. He didn't have a shell catcher on the gun and the empties were bouncing at my feet and sometimes passing in front of me almost at eye level.

His father/coach was with him and I suggested to the coach that the young man should have a shell catcher. His curt reply was "that's autoloaders". I said "I know, that's why they have shell catchers". His reply "It's not illegal. I said "no, but there there is common courtesy". His final retort was "only people your age complain about this".

I did not pursue the issue any further because my suggestions were falling on 'deaf ears".

Was I out of line to even suggest use of a shell catcher???

Odd Job
June 22, 2008, 02:06 PM
If that was me I would have asked to swap stalls with the other guy.
Failing that, unless the hulls were going down the back of my neck, I would put up with it and pretend it was an additional challenge.

If it was really distracting I might ask for a paper target to be hung between us.

There's often an uncomfortable situation because of brass, but generally I accept it as part of the experience.

hoytinak
June 22, 2008, 02:23 PM
I don't think you was out of line at all.

"only people your age complain about this"

Well, I'm one of the young bucks at the trap range I go to and I have a shell catcher on my 1100. When the older guys come up to me and start giving suggestions I like to listen...I've learned quite a bit from them. ;)

45Dave
June 22, 2008, 02:23 PM
I have no idea if you were at a public or private course. Would have to say if you were at a public course you often will find the attitude you encountered. Like odd job said, change sides if often the best option. At a private course, mine has a range officer to keep an eye on such things. Hopefully you shot something like a 25 or 24 and maybe the father would wake up and listen to your older age comments. So I wonder what lesson the son picked up from his dad from that lesson.

onemsumba
June 22, 2008, 02:25 PM
no you weren't out of line,

sounds like the dad was an a$$.

It happens all the time mostly with mall ninja's and their AR-15.

I agree that asking to switch positions might have been a good idea.

(note I shot aformentioned autoloaders, and AR-15's but am always aware of where my shell's/brass is landing.) A lot of people are not.

Sportdog
June 22, 2008, 02:57 PM
I don't shoot trap or skeet but during my CCW Class my 9mm semi-auto empties were spraying on the guy next to me. I did not realize this but when the instructor jokingly asked the guy how he liked all that brass coming at him I immediatly made a sincere apology and offered to change spots. He declined and there was no problem between us. I don't think that you were out line as long as you broached the subject in a respectful and friendly manner. I'm not saying that you did start off the conversation in an unfriendly manner and as other posters have stated the sense of common courtesy is quickly disappearing. :(

Lavid2002
June 22, 2008, 03:11 PM
I was at the range today and I asked three young teens to shoot away frm the rifle course and they gave me a huffy attitude. Later I started hearing the shot fall near where I stand to place my targets. I know its shot FALLING but still I dont want to get shot.
Is it that much to ask?

SilentHitz
June 22, 2008, 03:53 PM
That's just one reason I go out in the sticks to shoot...no attitudes, and no unwanted problems.

You can't beat me with a stick and make me shoot with people I don't know.

Bushwhacker
June 22, 2008, 04:36 PM
Wait till you run into some gang bangers.......talk about attitude problems....:rolleyes:

Hey RO! Can I use one of these GB's as a running target?:rolleyes:

JP Sarte
June 22, 2008, 06:05 PM
You were correct in saying what you did. It is a question of basic civility. The answer? We have lost it.

JP

BurkGlocker
June 22, 2008, 06:16 PM
i dont think you were out of line, JWT. Society is falling apart at the seams. Kids today arent taught basic common courtesy, and arent raised by their parents, but by MTV, YouTube, Myspace and Ipods. I am only 28 years old, but my father instilled chivalry and civility, and some common sense along with it. I have a 13 year old daughter, and she makes me feel alot older than I should, but I will try to instill the same qualities in her and my other children, but I see where her generation and mine differ quite a bit. How can you raise a child in a society where it is illegal to steal music, but we have companies producing storage devices for said 'ripped' music, and the government lets them. Thats why kids have the mindset that they do nowadays, its not alright to steal, buttttttt here, go ahead and do it because everyone else is doing it. Sorry for the rant...

But the brass flying in your face story reminds me when I bought my first AR-15, I put everything on the table, popped in a loaded mag, and just went to town. after the first 10 rounds, I just happen to look to the right of me, and the guy sitting next to me just got pelted with all ten rounds of hot brass. When i realized *** i just did, I was very apoligetic, but I couldnt help but chuckle when he was describing how every single piece of brass hit him right in the side of his head. He said the first 2 or 3 werent so bad, but when he got the hot brass right in the ear, that kinda stung. So i went in the shop and asked if they had a brass catcher, and luckily they did. But what the kicker is, everytime he went out to the range and saw me there, he would go back to his truck and get a hard hat out, but even the wave of reassurance with the brass catcher in my hand didnt make him take the hard hat off until I left. Taught me a lesson real quick... Dont shoot my AR-15 next to guys with a sense of humor...

Jeff Mulliken
June 22, 2008, 09:08 PM
Trap is shot all over the country with pumps and autoloaders and the ejected shells that land in front of the shooter to the right are normal and to be expected. It goes with the territory.

Most guys with pumps do make an effort to control where there shells land but you cant do that with an autoloader.

That being said the guy sounds like an a$$ but he was absolutly correct in saying "that's autoloaders". And in shooting a round of trap it makes no sense to switch positons because there will always be a shooter on the station to the shooters right in four out of the five stations in trap.

Jeff

JohnKSa
June 22, 2008, 09:42 PM
I agree with Jeff. Autoloaders chuck the empties. If you're standing in the right spot you're going to get hit and if you go to a public range, sooner or later you'll be standing in the right spot.

This falls into the same category, IMO, as people who go to the public pistol range and complain because there is a shooter there firing a magnum pistol and the muzzle blast is bothering them.

Here's an idea. Why not approach the range owner/operator and ask him to ban autoloaders if they don't have shell catchers, or perhaps segregate them to a special section so they won't affect those who have the decency to shoot guns that don't throw their empties around? ;)

JWT
June 22, 2008, 09:55 PM
The two guys I was shooting with talked with the manager of the trap club and she immediately said she'd speak with the shooter and remind him that if he had been shooting in a registered shoot he would be asked to either put a catcher on the gun or be disqualified if another shooter was distracted by his actions. I had not planned on going any further than the discussion I had with the 'coach'.

JohnKSa
June 22, 2008, 10:01 PM
Wow...

I meant the last paragraph of my post to be tongue-in-cheek, but I guess I was closer to the truth than I realized.

roy reali
June 22, 2008, 11:25 PM
The blackpowder shooters are fun to be near too.:rolleyes:

jrothWA
June 22, 2008, 11:35 PM
REQUIRE use.
Most clubs strongly request usage.

You were not out-of-line, but dealing with ignorance and attitude.
No known cure!

BigJimP
June 23, 2008, 12:06 PM
There are some autoloaders that don't have shell catchers available for them - like the Benelli Supersport but personally its not that big a deal to me in a non-tournament environement. As the kid exectutes his shot - just wait a second for the hull to land - then execute your shot. Yes its a little distracting - but it forces you to work a little harder on your concentration - and that isn't all bad either. A rubber band around the receiver takes care of the problem as well.

Autoloaders don't bother me nearly as much as someone shooting a 16" barrel next to me - the muzzle blast from that thing along side you is rude. I will not shoot next to someone with a short barreled gun - and I watch the squad sign up sheet to make sure that doesn't happen. If for some strange reason I can't avoid it - I will step back 2 or 3 yards as the guy next to me takes his shot - then step up and take my shot.

Trap shooters are only a few feet apart - if I had a kid with me shooting a semi-auto and I didn't have a shell catcher - I would ask the guy at the next station if he minded, as he signed up, just so there would not be a problem.

ISC
June 23, 2008, 12:33 PM
Alot depends on whether he was there shooting first and how you made your request, but it sounds like they were rude and inconsiderate. Of course, they may have a different version of what happened.

Wyldman
June 23, 2008, 12:58 PM
Went to the trap club this morning. A young man was shooting with a new Remington autoloader to the left of me. He didn't have a shell catcher on the gun and the empties were bouncing at my feet and sometimes passing in front of me almost at eye level.

His father/coach was with him and I suggested to the coach that the young man should have a shell catcher. His curt reply was "that's autoloaders". I said "I know, that's why they have shell catchers". His reply "It's not illegal. I said "no, but there there is common courtesy". His final retort was "only people your age complain about this".

I did not pursue the issue any further because my suggestions were falling on 'deaf ears".
I agree with "onemsumba" ... "Dad" was just an A$$!!!

This is one reason why I like living where I do. Here, we don't have to go to ranges or "Gun Clubs" to shoot although it is an option here. We just truck out to the desert to our favorite spot which isn't far away and there is NOBODY to give us grief or interfere with us ... it is also free!

Tatsumi67
June 23, 2008, 02:33 PM
I can relate to this as I was pelted with hot brass from a brand new pistol before, and I know how annoying that is. You could have switched stalls but no, you were not out of line. That guy probably just transgressed and though somehow that you had said something about his kid or something. It is common courtesy and he was wrong to be such a schmuck about it.

mikenbarb
June 23, 2008, 04:54 PM
Your not out of line and im finding that alot of new shooters are shooting their hunting guns or guns they just got and want to try out and dont understand the common courtesy at ranges. I run 2 semi's at the range(1 at a time) but dont use shell catchers either. But when I know im gonna run some hulls past the guys face next to me, I have the courtesy to ask him to swap places. If he declines, then its open game and im not even looking over to see where their going except to pick up the empties when im done. You should keep an extra semi in your case for guys like that. Get it on the next round and stand upside of him and his dad and let them know what it feels like. Noone says you have to hit the targets if it means missing them with the hulls. :D

kozak6
June 23, 2008, 07:30 PM
If more people used Ithaca 37's, this wouldn't be as much of a problem :D.

mikenbarb
June 23, 2008, 07:56 PM
Too bad their not semi's.:(

olddrum1
June 25, 2008, 01:00 AM
What BigJim and Mulliken said. Autoloaders are standard fare and not a lot of people use shell catchers when they start out. Shell catchers are used to catch the empty and not have to hunt around on the ground for a hull that your planning on reloading. I would rather have an auto next to me than a short barrel ported gun any day of the week. I would say the first comment was justified.

T.A.Sharps
June 25, 2008, 02:55 PM
I don't shoot skeet or trap, but target shoot a lot. I have had someone's cheap 7.62x39 brass fall all over me and my $2000 rifle. I know some nice shotguns can cost as much.

Anyone here that wouldn't mind someone chucking out pieces of metal from their POS AK at their expensive rifle or shotgun raise your hand.

Let alone, if you were there trying to get precise groupings, to evaluate some ammo, or a new rifle.

Some cases you can't do anything about it but leave if the guy is just wanting to be as ASS.

Maybe you can sit there and throw the hulls back at their head, then give him the same answer, so the trip isn't wasted.

buzz_knox
June 25, 2008, 03:01 PM
Anyone here that wouldn't mind someone chucking out pieces of metal from their POS AK at their expensive rifle or shotgun raise your hand.


I've had someone toss hot cases onto my face and neck, which I consider far more valuable than a rifle or shotgun, and have had the same strike a rather expensive rifle I was using. Honestly, I don't mind because 1) they have a right to be there, just like me, 2) I'm likely to do the same thing to someone else when I'm training so why be a hypocrite, and 3) I don't usually deal with trap, so shell collectors aren't something I'd expect to see.

So, consider this a raised hand.

WacosSon
June 25, 2008, 04:20 PM
Sounds like daddy was teaching his son to have an attitude problem. People like that **** me off.

I don't think you were out of line at all. Hopefully the kid saw the way you reacted and learned something - his dad's obviously not doing his job.

oneounceload
June 25, 2008, 07:49 PM
You weren't out of line, but maybe this is a sign to shoot 5-stand or sporting clays!...;)

556A2
June 26, 2008, 02:19 AM
I think both parties are out of line

When you see a guy shooting a auto-loader, you should know that shells are going to be hitting in your general direction if your station right next to it. There is a good chance they didn't have a shell catcher, and unless the range provides them that is just extra expense. Unless its specifically in the rules of the club, its should be a non-issue. I think the Dad could be more polite, and the last comment was completely uncalled for.

I just think if you take a station next to any autoloader (Rifle, Shotgun, Pistol) you should expect to have brass/shells to come into your station. If you have a problem with it, then move to another station. Thats the way every range I've been to has been setup, and the only time you talked to the Rangemaster is when someone is doing something dangerous.

predator86
June 26, 2008, 03:06 AM
i agree with 556A2, if they were falling at your feet who the hell cares?? its not like they were bouncing off your head or hitting above the waist, i'd take it as a challenge to shooting, how about you be happy that a father is getting his son into shooting?? instead you might have left them with a bad taste in their mouths for "fudds" which does nothing but make the rift between shooters and hunters even bigger.




or you could have said something like this," excuse me, sir? i think that it is great that you are bringing your son out here and getting him involved in the outdoors and shooting sports, but i was wondering if i could get you to move over about a foot? the reason i ask is the empties are hitting my feet and ankles and its kinda distracting, and with ammo prices now i really want to concentrate on not missing.........


think back, could there have been a better way to say it?? you came right out and told him to buy a brasscatcher and put it on his gun.....not very polite on your part telling him what he needs to put on his gun, maybe he is primarily a hunter who has no need for it.

556A2
June 26, 2008, 02:12 PM
you came right out and told him to buy a brasscatcher and put it on his gun.....not very polite on your part telling him what he needs to put on his gun, maybe he is primarily a hunter who has no need for it.

That would be my issue.

When I shot trap I used a 870 Wingmaster. I would NEVER slowly pump it to eject the shell at my feet because I hunt with 870s. I never wanted to get in the habit of doing it in the field, and possibly causing a malfunction. I shot trap & skeet every weekend (min. 4 rounds), and there was never an issue as long as you picked up your shells during/after the round.

Rocked
June 26, 2008, 06:06 PM
Guess Im lucky, the rifle range here has a heavy screen you can easily hang between each shooter. I have had one incident at an indoor range. I was behind my friend who was shooting. It was crowded that day with every stall full so me and two friends were alternating turns. He had a round pop out and bounce off the wall straight down my shirt and another lodge in my glasses. Not the most fun, but I didnt get mad, just stepped another foot back. If I had been in the next stall shooting, the walls between them are long enough I wouldnt have been hit anyway.

6thMichCav
June 26, 2008, 08:11 PM
I don't consider your comments to be out of line, and I, too, think that the kid's coach was inconsiderate. While I'm pretty new to my club's trap line (3 months), I've shot the rifle and pistol ranges for enough years to know that any kind of hull from another shooter's gun bouncing at, on or around me is distracting to my shooting.

I never realized the mental size of trap shooting until I tried it. The closest thing I can compare it to is archery. The least distraction in your equipment, environment, or downrange can ruin your focus. I've had people complain about dropping empty hulls "loudly" in a hull bag, for pete's sake! So, no, I wouldn't appreciate an autoloading shotgun pelting me with hulls, any more than I appreciate sand in my face, burning cigarette butts on my car's windshield, or people who light off 4-inch mortars at 2am on the 5th of July.

I also agree with the poster who noted that in many clubs, autoloaders without a shell catcher are illegal. My club is pretty tolerant; by that, I mean that you can pick up dropped hulls, shoot a second bird if your gun misfires, and call for a second bird if the first is broken by the trap. The best response, in my opinion, is to say something, move away, and don't shoot near that person again.

Lest anyone think I am hypersensitive to brass, I have shot all day next to M1's and AR-15's with brass raining on my elbow. I just laughed it off and kept shooting. Target shooting with a rifle at a bench, however, was (and still is) much different to me than shooting trap. A line of trap shooters are having a competition with each other, whether spoken or not. A line of rifle shooters at a range are rarely in direct competition. Distracting someone in this manner is not only inconsiderate, to me, it is unsportsmanlike.

T.A.Sharps
June 27, 2008, 02:26 PM
So, consider this a raised hand.

You wouldn't mind the guy on the urinal next to you to **** on your shoes a little too right?

A shell bouncing off my neck would just be annoying, a shell bouncing off my rifle could damage the finnish on it, or even scratch the lens of my scope.

Generally if I'm shooting brass on someone I try to reposition so I'm not, or am not shooting it in their face, I don't just keep doing it like an ass.

oneounceload
June 27, 2008, 03:14 PM
I had a situation when I lived out West once - public gun range, 30+ covered shooting benches - I'm the only one there and sitting at one extreme end and here comes another person - sits at the bench right next to me and proceeds to shoot some 30 caliber magnum with a muzzle break.....I wear plugs and muffs for pistol and rifle, and this still hurt....got so bad I just pushed back and sat on the rear bench until he was done - he just didn't get it

TheNatureBoy
June 27, 2008, 03:46 PM
No you were not outta line.

B. Lahey
June 27, 2008, 05:03 PM
If there was room, I would have just moved. Brass and hulls tend to fly around at ranges, but very few I have ever been to are so crowded you can't find a place away from the downpour.

Asking a kid to strap some goofy plastic deal to his shotgun would have been the last resort, and I don't think I would have had the heart to do it. I had a whole burst of brass from some kind of belt-fed medium MG rain down into my shirt collar once, but I was able to laugh about it after doing a little hot-brass dance. I can't imagine a few shells would be any worse.

JohnKSa
June 27, 2008, 08:51 PM
You wouldn't mind the guy on the urinal next to you to **** on your shoes a little too right?Incredible... :eek:

The idea that someone could actually draw the analogy between having an empty shell fall near them or cross their line of sight and having someone urinate on them is just incredible...

Socrates
June 27, 2008, 08:58 PM
For general rudeness, I pull out something that has a ton of blast, and noise.

Rifle problems? Break out the 375 H&H with full house loads and the muzzle brake on it.
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/500%20Nitro%20Express%20and%20375/Seanshooting375inrecoil.jpg


Handguns? Break out either the .475 Linebaugh, or, the .500 Linebaugh Max. Also, the 360PD with magnum loads if I'm really mad at myself...;)