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jurupari
June 22, 2008, 05:00 AM
Hi everybody! first post here, so I greet everybody on this forum and excuse myself for my bad English.

I was redirected here on advice by TheBluesMan, in the General Discussion forum. I'm not a weapons expert, and need help, if I can say so, in the name of culture.

A friend of mine, a Brazilian, is in the process of putting up a museum of the Military Police. The weapon section is in really bad conditions: no labels, nothing in written form, no inventories... She sent me some 79 (!) photos of all kinds of firearms, asking me to help identifying them. I was able to information on some of the weapons, but many of them are totally unknown, without marks (or marks are not showing in the pictures).

What I need is basic information (brand, caliber, weight, barrel length, range...) that will go on the label when the weapon will be on show in the future museum. Of course, pointing me to a site where all or part of this info can be retrieved is also welcome.

The weapon in the attachment is an example: it's most likely a tear gas launcher (as Amp 44 in the other forum informed). I know it's an almost impossible task, but can some super-expert tell me more?


Thanks in advance for any reply
Tommaso

Jim Watson
June 22, 2008, 09:11 AM
The illustrated device is a Federal Laboratories 1.5 inch tear gas gun.
They were available as long ago as 1933 and were manufactured for many years, and kept in service even longer.
I could not find descriptions of its range and other capabilities.

(Modern tear gas shell launchers are usually rifled 40mm instead of the smoothbore 1.5" and 37mm guns.)

4V50 Gary
June 22, 2008, 11:30 AM
Post your pics here and we'll try to help. Try to include several angles of the same weapon.

BTW, what museum does your friend work for? I'm jealous.

jurupari
June 23, 2008, 01:51 PM
Thanks everybody for the replies. I already sent the good news to my Brazilian friend (Dr. Veralucia Ferreira De Souza, she's a freelance museologist, presently working for the government of the State of Amazonas - Brazil is a federal republic, like the USA, and has 26 states).

- Jim Watson: thanks for the exact identification, it's much more than I could find through my "crawl in the dark" research...

- 4V50 Gary: I hope you won't repent of your hospitality... :o) . The museum of the Military Police (official name: Museu Tiradentes da Policia Militar, or MTPM) is located in Manaus, the capital of the state of Amazonas. It exists from 1986, more or less, but was in disastrous conditions. Now both the building (a 100 years old palace and the museum are undergoing a thorough and long needed restauration. The weapons section includes ancient weapons, war weapons - for example some Hotchkiss 7mm LMGs- personal weapons and, as I can see from the photos, weapons belonging to arrested criminals: there's at least one "home made" pistol... Most of these arms are in bad conditions, and need a lot of work to be shown in a museum. Worst of all, there was not an inventory, some weapons have a label on them but most don't.
As for the pictures, I can only post the photos my friend sent me, but I can try asking her for more if needed.

And here we go... two more pictures. Remember, there are 79 of them...

Thanks in advance as always
Tommaso

Jim Watson
June 23, 2008, 02:22 PM
Pictures no 3 and 4 illustrate a Danish Madsen light machine gun. There were numerous models and calibers from 1904 through 1950. I do not have the reference material to say just which this is. Several of them were used by the armies of Brazil and other South American countries.

The 1950 model weighs 22 lb (10 kg), has an 18.8 inch (48cm) barrel. It loads from a 30 shot top mounted magazine not shown in the pictures, and the sights are graduated from 200 to 1800 metres. Actual effective range in combat would be more like 300 to 500 metres, subject to correction by military men. The extra long range sights of guns designed before World War I were for long range barrage firing, a job left for the artillery and heavy machine guns in later years.

jurupari
June 24, 2008, 11:21 AM
Thanks Jim. In this case I was able to match yours with other information, provided from Brazil. The weapon is the Brazilian version of the Madsen mod. 50, manufactured, under license, by Industria Nacional de Armas (INA).

I must say your comments are as precious as the information itself: I'm translating them directly to my friend.

Now for a really tough one: I have only these two (bad) pictures of this rifle, hope to find information is quite feeble.

Jim Watson
June 24, 2008, 02:37 PM
My, those ARE bad pictures, aren't they?
It is a good thing the outline of the rifle is so distinctive.
It is a Belgian Comblain single shot, most likely the type made for Brazil about 1874. Caliber is 11.4 x 53R Brazilian Comblain. That designation means 11.4mm barrel bore diameter, cartridge casing not including bullet 53mm long, rimmed case for easy extraction by a single shot mechanism.

In English units, it is firing a .45 caliber bullet weighing 486 grains at a claimed muzzle velocity of 1450 fps.

I do not have other specifications, my information comes from Frank DeHaas' book which concentrates on the actions.

There is considerable discussion of the Belgian, Brazilian, and Chilean Comblain rifles at:
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Belgium/BelgComb.htm

jurupari
June 25, 2008, 11:06 AM
So this is the famous Comblain! It played a major role (together with the Mauser rifle) in the most "glorious" (a very arguable glory indeed) episode of the history of the Military Police of Amazon, the so-called War of Canudos, 1896-97 (a short search in the internet will explain you all).

As usual, starting from your identification, I was able to put together more details, and the label is quite ready...

I'm afraid the average quality of pictures is only slightly better than the last ones -I know the photographer... :o( - but it's all I have, for now.

This time I'm posting two differents weapons, since these are the only pictures available. N.13 looks, in the trigger area, similar to the Hotchkiss LMG, maybe is produced by the same firm.

I thank you, again as usual, in advance... By the way, are you an expert about artillery guns, too?

SDC
June 25, 2008, 01:14 PM
I can help a little bit with some of these; picture 13 is of a Hotchkiss light machine gun, probably the Model 1922 in 7mm Mauser, and picture 14 is of a Madsen submachine gun, probably the Model 50 (in 9mm), but Brazil also made its own licenced copy in 45 Auto, as the INA 953.

Jim Watson
June 25, 2008, 04:39 PM
You have it all over me on the Hotchkiss, though that is certainly what it is.

The Madsen submachine gun is the Brazilian .45 calibre variant, there is no cocking handle showing on top of the action; it is on the right side of the INA made guns.
These were very popular in adventure cinema of a few years ago. I assume that some using nation replaced them and the Hollywood prop companies bought a number of them.


That is five, only 74 to go.

I don't know that I will be much help on artillery, though.

jurupari
June 26, 2008, 02:57 PM
ok, more two gone...
And, Jim: don't worry, there are less than 74 pictures to post... There many repeated photos, so I think that we are going through this in no much time.

SDC: welcome to this thread. You both are right about the Madsen LMG: it's a Brazilian INA, they called it mod. 1952, but it's quite surely the 1953 model.

I asked about artillery because of a heavy gun used in the Canudos campaign: the so-called Matadeira (Assassin). It is, as contemporary sources report, a "Whitworth 32" gun, weighing 1.7 metric tons. The beast is now (in bad conditions) on display as a monument in Monte Santo, in the Brazilian state of Bahia. I could find no reference to this (reportedly) siege gun on the internet, though I found similar shaped pieces of artillery, but branded as Armstrong. This is only my personal curiosity, nothing to do with the thread topic. Returning to which, here tonight's pictures: three pictures of what I think are three slightly different versions of the same weapon.

Jim Watson
June 26, 2008, 03:56 PM
The submachine gun with the bayonet is to all appearances a Bergmann-Haenel-Schmeisser MP28 II with a bayonet lug added.

I cannot identify the other two.

The one with the sling has an unperforated barrel jacket and what looks like a magazine appears to me to be an extended magazine housing. I would consider the possibility that it is a suppressed or silenced weapon.

The other has a pale strip on the buttstock, like it was once labeled. A pity that has been lost off.

SDC
June 27, 2008, 06:40 AM
I'd go with Jim on the MP28, but the first two are real oddballs; they both share the same form of stock, which makes me think that one has been heavily modified. The only submachine guns I can find that have that odd, deep pistol-grip style of stock are the Bergmann MP34 and MP35; both of these were made in Germany and Denmark, and should be marked as to their origin. Some of these were sold as export items to Bolivia, and most of them were sold off as surplus after WW2. The real identifier for these would be the bolt cocking handle, which your picture doesn't show. The handle should be a horizontal knob resembling that on a bolt-action rifle, sticking out the right side at the rear of the receiver. The one with the shortened stock may have had the support for the magazine housing removed, allowing it to swing down. I hope this helps.

jurupari
July 2, 2008, 09:37 AM
...been away for work.

The weapons in my last post should indeed be Schmeisser MP-something. From further research on the Net, the weapon with bayonet looks like a MP-18, like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MP18VWM.jpg

only differences being in the aiming system and, of course, the presence of the bayonet.

I'm posting two more photos of similar weapons, hoping in some more info. Unhappily, they're taken from the same side as the others, but maybe a revealing detail...

Thanks one more time for your attention
Tommaso

Jim Watson
July 2, 2008, 09:52 AM
I have still not seen anything to identify the submachine gun in the first picture with its long barrel, solid shroud, and protruding magazine housing.

The second picture looks like another of the MP 28 type without bayonet but with bayonet mounting bar. I think those are MP 28 or copies rather than MP 18 because most MP 18s were made to use the Luger drum magazine and have a slanted magazine well. Only a few were made or modified for conventional box magazines. But the appearance of the two models is close and I am not willing to go farther on the identification.

jurupari
July 5, 2008, 12:37 PM
Thanks for the efforts anyway, guys...

They sent me a picture of one of the mistery SMGs, taken from the other side. Problem is, the weapons are under custody of MP. This means a lot of bureaucracy just to take a simple picture.

I'm posting this new photo, along with two new weapons. The slim rifle does not look like a war weapon to me, but rather some hunting rifle: as I mentioned in a previous post, there are strange things in this lot...

Jim Watson
July 5, 2008, 01:12 PM
I have nothing new to offer on that submachine gun.

The "slim rifle" is actually a single shot shotgun. Apparently the inexpensive Brazilian made 12 gauge hunting gun sold in the USA under the brand name of "Boito."

The third picture is of a Mauser 1898 bolt action military rifle in "short rifle" configuration. It does not match the picture of a 1922 Brazilian model that I found but is more similar to the 1935 Chilean model. If so, it is in caliber 7x57 mm Mauser. (7mm barrel bore diameter, 57mm cartridge case length.)
But there are scores of different models and variations of Mauser rifles and they have been sold, resold, and traded around the world for over 100 years. So I am not confident of identification beyond the basics in the first sentence.

4V50 Gary
July 5, 2008, 01:51 PM
This gun http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33759&d=1214510217 with the bayonet appears to be a MP28II. It was probably manufactured in Belgium for some South American country and was adopted by Bolivia as the Mitraillete Model 34.

BADSBSNF81
July 5, 2008, 03:02 PM
These references might help:

World's Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns 1964-1980

Thomas B. Nelson and Daniel D. Musgrave

Military Small Arms Of The 20th Century

Ian V. Hogg & John S. Weeks


Machine-Guns Of Two World Wars

John Walter

Machine Guns of World War I

Robert Bruce

Machine Guns

Ian V. Hogg


Illustrated Directory of 20th Century Guns

David Miller

Fighting Submachine Gun, Machine Pistol & Shotgun

Timothy J. Mullin

World's Fighting Shotguns

Swearengen

Jim Watson
July 5, 2008, 05:10 PM
We got THAT one, Gary, what are the OTHER SMGs?

I have Hogg & Weeks and Mullin, they do not show the oddballs.

jurupari
July 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
- Jim, can the Mauser be a 1895 model? they were sold to many South American countries, including Chile and Brazil... I agree that it's almost impossible to go further based on a single - not so good - picture.

-4V50Gary, thanks for intervening... any contribution is welcome.
(A curiosity about your Latin signature: shouldn't it be iura, rather than jura? as far as I know, the letter J did not exist in the Latin alphabet).

-BADSBSNF81: great bibliography, but I'm only trying to help a friend... not directly interested in weapons.

New week, new weapons... here are three new ones.

Jim Watson
July 7, 2008, 02:26 PM
What is the Portugese equivalent of Bubba? That is the USA term for one of low education, few skills, and no social refinement who crudely alters firearms.
All of today's guns have been worked on by Bubba.

The first is a percussion muzzleloading rifle or musket that has been cut down in barrel and stock length. The alteration is so great and the condition so poor - the front of the trigger guard appears to be held on by a nail - that I cannot tell what it might have started out as.

The second is a Comblain which has had the stock foreend shortened to an approximation of a sporting rifle's. I see no rear sight. Perhaps it was meant to be aimed over the hammer or a notch in the receiver. Or perhaps the rifling was reamed smooth to convert it into a shotgun.

The third is any one of a number of single shot shotguns that has had the buttstock cut off and replaced with bent tubing, and a vertical front handgrip added. The intent was to give it the appearance and handling qualities of a submachine gun.

Jim Watson
July 7, 2008, 02:34 PM
Tommaso,

I am confident that the Mauser of post 16 is an 1898 model rather than an 1895.
It has the large receiver ring - the part the barrel screws into is larger than the action behind that area.
It has a thumb notch to help reloading with stripper clips - which hold five rounds to be placed in the internal magazine with one push.

In addition it has small clues like the pistol grip stock, less common on 1895s than 1898s, and the shape of the trigger guard and the trigger location within it are like the 1898.

There were 1898 Mausers sold into Latin America, as well as the many guns traded on the surplus market.

jurupari
July 16, 2008, 01:21 PM
Just a quick pass, I'll not be able to post until Friday 18.

Jim, really thanks for your constance...

- The Mauser will be reported as a mod. 1898 all right!
- as for the Bubba (portuguese equivalent should be "caipira") weapons, they're are probably taken from arrested criminals. It's just a miracle you got to know a Comblain in that mess!
... and prepare for the worse ... :D : when we get to pistol section, there are arms in really, really (repeat many times) bad conditions. And there's a "home made" pistol I'll post just as a curiosity.

Jim Watson
July 16, 2008, 01:49 PM
I will be standing by. Looking up things for you has improved my education.

The good news is that I have more references on pistols than rifles.

jurupari
July 20, 2008, 01:00 PM
but here we go. I'll try to keep a quicker pace - if work allows - to finish this search.

Here are three more rifles (by the way, does a clear definition of the terms rifle, musket and carbine - and of the differences among them - exist? in general they are used almost as synonymous).

The first one looks like a sports weapon, can't see a way to load a magazine into it. The second one is a muzzle-loaded rifle, and I think a better identification is practically impossible. The third one ... well, I'll leave it to you... maybe once again Bubba passed by? the barrel looks too short...

As always, thanks for your kindness and... how can I say? ...persistence?...

Tommaso

SDC
July 20, 2008, 03:18 PM
The first one is easy; either a Remington Nylon 66, or its Brazilian copy (the Nylon 66 was made in Brazil for Remington anyway, and Companhia Brasiliera de Cartuchos (CBC) continued making it for domestic sales afterwards); it's in 22LR, and feeds from a magazine tube in the butt of the rifle.
The second one is a muzzle-loading percussion rifle of some sort, but it doesn't appear to be factory-made; there are still areas of the world (the Amazon Basin included) where these sorts of guns are still made and used by backyard gunsmiths.
The third one is a military Mauser carbine, but I'd need to know the markings on the receiver, the calibre, and the barrel length to know which specific one.

Jim Watson
July 20, 2008, 04:36 PM
Agreed, Remington Nylon 66 or the CBC copy and a backwoods blacksmith muzzleloader of some sort.

The third is what is known as a "small ring" Mauser, likely a model of 1893 or 1895. They were used by many South American armies, most in caliber 7mm Mauser also known as 7x57 from the barrel bore diameter and cartridge case length. As SDC says, it is impossible to identify more closely without reading the markings. It looks like the front end of the stock under the muzzle has been hacked on by Bubba the caipira.

Terminology:
A "musket" is a muzzleloading smoothbore military weapon standard in the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries. It may be fired by either flintlock or percussion cap. Or by matchlock for the very old guns.

A "rifle" is any shoulder fired weapon that has a rifled barrel. That is, it has spiral grooves down the length of the barrel bore to spin the bullet for gyroscopic stability giving greater accuracy and range. There are muzzleloading rifles, breechloading single shot rifles like the Comblain, manually operated repeaters like the Mauser, and semiautomatic or fully automatic weapons like the FN-FAL.

A "carbine" is in most cases a shortened rifle. When bolt action rifles were issued by many armies, a service rifle might have a barrel length near 30 inches, while the carbine had an 18 inch barrel but was otherwise similar. Eventually many armies struck a compromise near 24 inches to give a "short rifle" easier to handle than the earlier rifle but without as much disturbing muzzle blast and recoil as the carbine.

The distinction between rifle and carbine is different in sporting arms - a Winchester expert can go on at length about the differences between a carbine and a "short rifle" even though they both have the same length barrel.

jurupari
July 28, 2008, 01:12 PM
Late once again, but here we are. Last three rifles -and automatic guns: from next post on, only pistols!
Apart for the automatic SMG - should be a Brazil-made INA - the other two guns look heavily Bubba-ed. Is n. 39 a Winchester?

- Jim, two questions. First: what ring does the "small ring" of Mauser refer to?
Second: a "musket" only refers to muzzle-loading weapons? or does it have a more modern meaning? For example, the Comblain rifle was often called, in Portuguese, a "mosquetao Comblain", a Comblain "big musket", or simply a "mosqueto"; same for the Italian mod. 91 rifle, often referred to as "moschetto 91".

Bad news from my Brazilian museologist friend: the budget for the museum was cut of about 30%... hard times...

No need to say - as always- thanks for your patience and kindness

Jim Watson
July 28, 2008, 01:58 PM
In order:

I think no 37 is a .22 semiautomatic rifle but the make and model are unknown to me. The barrel is shorter than would be legal in the USA. Either it was made for a market where that is not the case or it was shortened. At least the front sight was re-installed after shortening the barrel.

No 38 is indeed another example of the Madsen submachine gun, likely made by INA.

No 39 is a model 92 (1892) Winchester lever action rifle or a copy thereof. The Winchester 92 has been copied by Rossi in Brazil and by Garate Anituay in Spain under the El Tigre trademark. El Tigres were traded all over the world, many in Latin America; the Rossi is a more modern reproduction.
Again, the barrel (and the tubular magazine under it) are shorter than usual. While Winchester did manufacture some rifles with 12 to 14 inch barrels, known as the "trapper model", this one may also have been cut down from a standard rifle. If so, Bubba was more consientious than many, he reinstalled the front sight and repositioned the supporting ring connecting the magazine and barrel.

Terminology:

The English dictionary definition of "musket" is a smoothbore muzzleloader.
Use of the term "mosquetao" for the Comblain and "moschetto" for the 1891 Carcano may be a holdover from earlier years or it may be due to usages in the Romance languages, I don't know.

I found that moschetto is in the Italian model designations for both the bolt action 1891 carbines and their many submachine guns. From this I assume that moschetto is the diminutive form because it is used for short shoulder weapons. Perhaps the cognate of the English "musketoon" for a short barrelled muzzleloader.
The long 1891 infantry rifle is the "Fusile Modelo 91". Historically the "fusil" was a long but light muzzleloader carried by officers who wanted a more effective weapon than a sabre and a pistol. The inexpensive muzzleloaders traded to Indians in the North American fur trade were fusils.

"Small ring" (or "large ring") describes the receiver ring of a Mauser rifle. The reciever ring is the strong portion of the action that the barrel screws into. A small ring action, models from 1891 to 1896, had that ring the same diameter as the rest of the receiver. The large ring action of 1898 has a receiver ring larger in diameter than the balance of the action. It is most easily seen as a pronounced step on the left side at the front of the action opening over the magazine.


I am sorry to hear of the budget cut. That will indeed make for hard times for your friend the museologist. I hope we can continue, supporting the identification programme is a pleasure and an honor for me and I hope my amateur contributions are of use.

Hawg
July 28, 2008, 09:22 PM
My two cents on #39 is it's a Winchester model 92 short rifle. The pic is dark but it's obvious it has no barrel band as per rifles. Carbines had a barrel band with the front sight mounted behind it. Most repro carbines have the front sight mounted on the barrel band. Also there no band around the forearm like on a carbine instead it has a long forearm with a nose cap which is why the barrel looks so short. It's actually a 20 inch barrel. Hard to tell from the pic but the barrel should be octagonal. Here's a link to EMF repros which are pretty dang close to the originals. http://www.iar-arms.com/1892-winchester-rifle.htm

Jim Watson
July 28, 2008, 11:43 PM
I agree it is a short rifle, the foreend cap and dovetailed magazine tube ring are visible if you cross your eyes and squint a bit... or enhance the picture. Not to mention the crescent buttplate.

But it is a VERY short rifle. Unless the picture was taken at enough of an angle to introduce a lot of parallax, the barrel is about 12 inches long. Scaling off the computer monitor, the barrel is shorter than the length of pull of the stock. The pull on the '92 in the next room is just under 13 inches.

Winchester used shorter foreends on short rifles, this one has that but it still looks snubnose because of the very short barrel. The EMF copy does not bother with that and looks out of proportion even at 20".

Hawg
July 29, 2008, 02:03 AM
You may be right. I'm thinking the short rifle had the longer rifle forearm and the pic is so dark it's hard to tell.

jurupari
August 2, 2008, 06:39 AM
let's start with something easy... two of the three weapons have labels on them, only need to confirm the labels are exact. The third (no. 42) should be what in Brazil is called a "garrucha", a two-barreled kind of pistol that, I'm told, is still produced by, e.g., Rossi. Any more detailed information is welcome.

About the Winchester: what could be the "useful" range for such a short - or shortened - weapon? 300ft? 150ft?

As for the budget cut, it also means a reduction of displaying space, and only a small portion of the weapons are going to be visible to the public. Just a pity, but pistols are more likely - as they are smaller - to be on display.

Thanks - I'm becoming monotonous - to you, Jim, and to Hawg Heggen.

Hawg
August 2, 2008, 09:11 AM
I'd have said the top pic was a Howdah used for last ditch defense while hunting tigers in India. Maybe the garrucha is a rifled version of same.
I don't know about the second pic but the markings on the Beretta back up the label.

The short barreled Winchester would still have a good 75 yard range.

SDC
August 2, 2008, 02:38 PM
The "garrucha" is similar to a "boot pistol", and they were normally chambered for a short .38/9mm rimmed cartridge, and is (or was) commonly used by South American cowboys. The second picture is of an Argentine-produced revolver that is about as close to an RG without actually being an RG as you can get; a die-cast zinc or pot-metal frame that probably won't last longer than a full box of ammunition. The Beretta is just what its markings say it is, but someone managed to break the trigger-guard off.

Hawg
August 2, 2008, 05:16 PM
I'd say they cut it off for quick access to the trigger.

Jim Watson
August 2, 2008, 07:45 PM
I agree with SDC and Hawg on the identity of those pistols.
I will add that the Garrucha is normally a cheap simple pistol and this appears to be an example of the low end of the market. A pistol for someone who cannot afford even a cheap revolver like the next gun.

I agree with Hawg, the trigger guard has probably been intentionally removed from the little Beretta. It is a separate part, not integral with the frame as is common in other guns. It is readily removed. Sometimes that is done to make the gun faster on the draw. It also makes it unsafe to the user and bystanders. That is also a bad idea, because the trigger guard is also the spring for the hinged barrel - the gun is loaded by hinging up the barrel and loading the chamber, then inserting a loaded magazine. So it can be loaded without exerting oneself by pulling back the operating slide against the recoil spring. I don't know if removal of the trigger guard would affect mechanical operation of the gun. Probably not, although care would have to be taken with loading and unloading with no spring tension on the barrel hinge.

This is a small gun of the type once known as a "vest pocket pistol". It is small, light, and convenient to carry, but very low powered in the 6.35 mm (.25 ACP) calibre.

jurupari
August 4, 2008, 01:17 PM
with three more pistols. This time, I'm looking for two confirmations (no. 47 and 52) and sort of a post-mortem... see images. What's the caliber of no. 47?

As for the previous post, really the "Italo GRA" pistol looks more a cast-iron toy than a real weapon.

As for the Winchester rifle of two (my) posts ago, I found so much information about it! too much, indeed... What's the caliber? It looks that were issued three types going from .44 to .32.

SDC
August 4, 2008, 02:09 PM
The first one appears to be a Smith & Wesson 38 Hand Ejector of some sort, but there are people here that are a lot better on S&Ws than I am, so I'll leave that one to them; it looks like someone first removed, and then tried to re-install a trigger-guard on it.
The second one is a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless, and I'm sure someone here can even give you a date of manufacture with the serial number visible.
The third one APPEARS to be a Remington Model 51, in either 32 or 380 Auto, in pretty rough shape, but it should be pretty clearly marked as a Remington on the other side of the frame.

Jim Watson
August 4, 2008, 02:22 PM
I think No 47 is a COPY of a Smith and Wesson Hand Ejector revolver, probably from Spain. A real S&W has the trigger guard integral with the frame, this gun has pin holes to retain a separate trigger guard which is missing here. Perhaps it came from the same Bubba as the little Beretta. The hammer pivot below the latch to swing out the cylinder is not a screw on a real S&W. The hammer is not quite the right shape. The pearl handles appear to have a S&W monogram medallion but they do not fit properly and are not likely original to the gun.
The second digit in the label is not readable. It might be caliber .38, there is a black powder .38 cartridge that is the Spanish equivalent of the old .38 Long Colt. It might be recent enough to be a .38 Special.
It might be caliber .32 which could be the .32 Winchester Center Fire also known as .32-20, that was a popular cartridge in Spanish copies. I am sorry there are so many "mights" but that is all I can tell.

No 52 is a Colt model of 1903 Pocket Hammerless in caliber .32 ACP = 7.65mm Browning. The serial number is legible, it was made in late 1919.
Condition is better than most guns in the collection, it still has its magazine, and it is still a desirable firearm in the USA.

No 55 is what remains of a nearly destroyed Remington Model 51 pistol made from 1918 til 1934. Caliber is (was) probably .380 ACP = 9mm Browning Short. They made some in .32 ACP but they are much less common. In that condition, it hardly matters.

Jim Watson
August 4, 2008, 02:35 PM
As SDC said, the ITALO revolver is a cheap copy of the cheap German Rohm RG 25. It is a real functional (sometimes) firearm, probably caliber .22.
[Editorial comment: The avalability of RGs contributed to the passage of legislation to restrict the importation of small firearms to the USA. That had little effect on criminal activity but protected US gun companies from foreign competition.]

The short or shortened Winchester rifle, no 39 above, is a model of 1892 and was available in a number of calibers, .25 WCF, .32 WCF, .38 WCF, and .44 WCF. It is not possible to tell for sure which from that picture. The size of the magazine tube indicates that it is either a .38 WCF (also known as .38-40 from the nominal caliber and the standard charge of black powder) or .44 WCF (.44-40.) It is most probably a .44 WCF.

jurupari
August 5, 2008, 02:05 PM
Three revolvers this time, only one with label.

I liked that "sometimes" adverb about the Italo... excuse my ignorance: what are RGs? Do US gun companies need a protectionist policy? never thought about that, they look they're doing pretty well.

What do you think about "personalizing" arms? I visited a site about the Mauser rifle, and there were pictures of modified guns that had almost nothing to do with the original weapon, only the action still persisting. If I had the luck of owning such a nice weapon (in good conditions, of course) I think I would keep it with no alterations.

Just for a change, thanks to you, Jim and to you, SDC. As I said once, not only identifications, but - maybe more - your comments are precious in this search, and I'm reporting all of them to my friend in Brazil.

Jim Watson
August 5, 2008, 03:30 PM
No 54, labeled as "Goliat, cal. .38" is a Spanish copy of a Colt Police Positive Special revolver. I have nothing about the maker other than the country of origin. The actual cartridge might be either .38 black powder similar to the obsolete .38 Long Colt or .38 Special.

No 56 is an interesting gun, a Spanish revolver which is made to look like a Smith & Wesson Military and Police but actually operates like a Colt. I do not know the name of the maker. The cylinder rotates clockwise like a Colt (S&W is anticlockwise) and the sideplate over the action parts is on the left side instead of the right like a real S&W. Caliber may be .38 as above or .32 WCF/.32-20.

No 57 is a Smith & Wesson Safety Hammerless, caliber .32 S&W. The design came out in 1888, I think this is a third model as made from 1909 til 1937. It is an ugly little gun but very popular, they made about 250,000 of them in three models, and as many more in five models of .38 caliber. It is not truly hammerless, just that the hammer is internal. The bar down the back of the grip is a safety which must be depressed by the grasp of the shooter to let the gun fire.

Jim Watson
August 5, 2008, 03:39 PM
Comments:

RGs are cheap pistols and revolvers made in Germany by Rohm GmbH. I have seen revolvers from .22 short up to .44 Magnum; automatic pistols in .22 and .25 calibers, and a double barrelled .38 derringer. Their importation to the USA was banned in 1968 under the guise of crime control by preventing the sale of small pistols. Here described as "Saturday Night Specials" due to the custom of people in poor districts getting drunk on Saturday night and starting fights with knives and such cheap guns as they could afford.

It was not long before there was a domestic industry in cheap guns to fill the vacancy in the market, the law did not affect local manufacture.

However, the law, the Gun Control Act of 1968, also banned ANY gun below a certain size and kept many high quality small guns off the US market too. It greatly reduced sales by Browning and Walther here. These are the pistols that Colt and Smith & Wesson were just as glad to see removed from the market. They did not care about the cheap guns, but were glad of the trade protection from good quality imported weapons.

Jim Watson
August 5, 2008, 03:46 PM
Personalized guns:

There has been a good business in custom firearms in a big market like the USA for a long time. The practice of converting military actions to handsome sporting arms is commonly called "sporterizing." It can be done very nicely, reasonably well, or at the Bubba level.
One of the most famous here is the Springfield rifle converted to sporting style for President Theodore Roosevelt for an African Safari in 1909.

There is now a good deal of opposition to modifying firearms of historical interest, both military and commercial. Almost any alteration of a sound service rifle or pistol will be dismissed as Bubba work, even if well done and to the taste of the owner. There are so many guns available that have already been altered to some extent that you can have one redone to produce a "personalized" gun without devaluing what many see as a Historical Artifact.

I know that a Colt model 1911 .45 automatic pistol in good condition and unaltered as issued to the US armed forces in World War I or II is worth substantially more money to a collector than a new pistol of the same type.

SDC
August 5, 2008, 04:01 PM
No problem at all, Jurupari; playing "name that gun" is a time-honoured hobby among gun cranks, and it's enjoyable to boot. An "RG" is one of a large number of cheap handguns built by Rohm Gesellschaft, a German company; before the US Gun Control Act of 1968 (passed as a result of the assassination of Kennedy), large numbers of these cheap guns were imported into the US. Italy, Spain, and other countries all had similar makes and models of cheap handguns that were essentially "dumped" into the US, and they made up the bulk of what are called "saturday night specials". The generic RG design was so popular, that after the GCA '68, the rights to produce those revolvers were bought by an American manufacturer so they could be built in the US (the bill outlawed the importation of those guns, but they could, and can, still legally be built in the US). Anyway, an "RG" is basically shorthand for any cheap handgun that you could basically consider "disposable", and that might or might not last for more than a box or two of ammunition. With that out of the way, onto the fun :-)

Picture 54 is of a Spanish-made "Goliat" revolver, made by Antonio Errasti of Eibar, in either 32 S&W Long, or 38 Special; it's a copy of a Colt Police Positive, but this one looks like the barrel has been chopped off, because it should have a half-moon front sight.

Picture 56 doesn't have enough detail for me to make out the logo on the grip, and the grips (and cylinder latch) may or may not even be original to the revolver to begin with; it appears to be another Colt Police Positive copy.

Picture 57 looks like a Smith & Wesson 38 Safety Hammerless, made in five different variations before 1940, it should be a 5-shot revolver in 38 S&W.
I hope this helps.

Edit to add: Jim posted THREE times while I was still looking through my books for #2 :-); the S&W Safety Hammerless was made in both 32 and 38 calibres.

Jim Watson
August 5, 2008, 11:24 PM
The Safety Hammerless appears to me to have the proportions of the .32 caliber version.

I don't have much to show the maker of those obscure copycat revolvers. There seem to have been a lot of them, though; even one pretty fair Triple Lock.

jurupari
August 17, 2008, 06:20 AM
It looks I can't keep a quicker pace; on the other side, works on the building in Brazil are being delayed (political reasons), so there's no need to hurry...

Three more pistols to search: one semi-auto (I think) and two revolvers.

I agree on most weapons - particularly pistols - being cheap copies: police - even military police, that is NOT a federal corps, but is State based and payed by, never was over-funded... not to speak of criminals, of course.

SDC
August 17, 2008, 07:35 AM
Image 58 is of a VERY-heavily-used FN-Browning M1900, in 32 Auto.
Image 59 looks like a Rossi Model 13 "Princess", in 22 LR, but it should have the calibre marked on the right side of the barrel.
Image 60 looks like a Webley Mark IV revolver in .455, but so many of these were copied by other manufacturers in other countries that I think we'd need to know the calibre or at least the markings to give you a more definitive answer. Most of these markings were stamped on the left side of the revolver, but I can't see them in the photo.

Jim Watson
August 17, 2008, 07:48 AM
No 58 is a FN (Fabrique Nationale of Belgium) model 1900. It was designed for them by renowned US gun inventor John M. Browning. It was very popular in its day, with over 700,000 made from 1900 until 1911. There were numerous Chinese copies, it was well known in the Orient. Caliber is 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP). This example is very worn.

No 59 is a Rossi "Princess" revolver made by Amadeo Rossi S.A. in S. Leopoldo, Brazil. Caliber is .22 long rifle. It was sold in the USA as the "Ladysmith" because it resembles the old small Smith & Wesson revolver of that (informal) model designation.

No 60 is a copy of a British Webley Mk II (or III, IV, or V). It is most likely of Spanish or Belgian origin, and is a more faithful copy than most such guns. Caliber in the original was .455 Webley but a copy might be in some other caliber suited to the market. The trigger guard is a replacement bent out of strap iron. Several other guns in this series have missing or damaged trigger guards, I don't know what it is about service in Brazil that is hard on that area.

I see that SDC has beaten me to the punch this Sunday morning. But we do agree, which has to be worth something.

jurupari
September 12, 2008, 11:29 AM
... but I'll be able to post during the week end, hoping there's still someone out there...

Cheers everybody!

Jim Watson
September 12, 2008, 11:45 AM
I subscribed to this thread to watch for posts and am still here for whatever help I can provide. I will be absent until Sunday afternoon. SDC will probably provide identification in the meanwhile.

SDC
September 12, 2008, 12:10 PM
Always free to help, and I THINK I've identified one of those oddball submachine guns as well; from Nelson's "Submachine Guns of the World", it appears to be a Spanish-made MX 1935 (sometimes called a "Gollat MX 1935", from the designer), in 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. This is apparently a fairly rare model, as not many were made, and should be marked "Eibar" and "Gollat" on the right side of the receiver.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/MX1935.jpg

jurupari
September 14, 2008, 07:24 AM
Back again, and finding good news! Thank you, SDC! Can you please specify the picture in my posts that corresponds to the Spanish-made MX 1935? There is one sporting a barrel jacket with round holes, but the barrel looks way shorter than the one in your picture.

Let's get to today pistols (only five posts remaining, this included!), all revolvers. As for the museum, there isn't yet a date for the opening, it should be some time between the end of this year and the beginning of next one... let's hope for the best.

SDC
September 14, 2008, 09:32 AM
Glad to help :-) I believe your picture 16 is the MX 1935, as it shares the ventilated barrel shroud, the magazine well at 90 degrees, the deep pistol-grip, and the rear receiver cap that slopes down slightly. Your picture 65 appears to be an Italian Bodeo M1889 folding-trigger revolver; these were chambered for the 10.4mm Revolver cartridge, and used through the First and Second World Wars, but were made by five or six different manufacturers in Italy; the manufacturer of that specific revolver should be marked on the frame, ahead of the cylinder. Picture 66 appears to be a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector of one type or another (if you can get the serial number, it will narrow down the possibilities), but it's in pretty rough shape; the finish is mainly gone, the cylinder latch has been replaced with another home-made piece, and the grips have been replaced with a pair from a Harrington & Richardson revolver that just happened to fit. Picture 67 APPEARS to be an early (1870s or so) Nagant-style revolver, built in either France or Belgium for military use, but I think we'd need some more information on any markings to be able to nail it down past that. Sorry I couldn't be more help on these, but revolvers tend to be a little out of my area of specialty.

Jim Watson
September 14, 2008, 11:27 AM
I have nothing to add on No 65, the Italian Bodeo revolver.

Just from the proportions of the gun, I think No 66 is a Smith and Wesson .32 Hand Ejector, caliber .32 S&W Long. These were made in large quantities from 1903 til 1942 in several "changes" identifiable only by serial number and other markings. The model resumed production after WW II, but with visible differences. I think this a pre-war revolver or possibly a very early post WW II example.

No 67 looks very like the Belgian Model 1883 Nagant noncommissioned officer's revolver, caliber 9x22R mm. (9mm bullet, 22mm cartridge case length, rimmed case for revolver use.) E.C. Ezell's book 'Handguns of the World' states "Revolvers similar to the Nagant were adopted by the Brazilian and Argentine armies..." The extractor rod under the barrel is a replacement of different shape than the factory part.

jurupari
October 25, 2008, 04:10 AM
... Back after so long time, just to thank everybody for your help and patience.

Dr De Souza, my Brazilian friend, told me that, due to fund cuts and related cuts to the museum's dimensions, she has already gathered enough information to fill up the museum space she reserved for weapons, and - for now at least - needs not go further.

So, again, thank you Jim, SDC and all others that helped us in this project: the information you provided was precious, and those labels will be a permanent acknowledgment to your kindness. I must add that, personally, it was an experience from which I learned a lot, an enriching one.

As I promised, I'all post a last image, no need to identify it... it's a odd custom made (or Bubba made) pistol, I can't even how (and if) it could fire...

Good bye everybody!

Jim Watson
October 25, 2008, 05:22 AM
That is really a finale. I have never seen the like. I think it is incomplete and incapable of being fired as is.