PDA

View Full Version : Citizen's arrest - what's the low-down?


AutoPistola
June 14, 2008, 08:16 PM
Is it only in movies?
I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.:mad::barf:

Slopemeno
June 14, 2008, 08:51 PM
The one time I CA'd someone, I caught a prowler in my neighborhood at about 3:00 am. Bottom line the offence better be in your presence, and I would (and did) get the cops involved ASAP. In my case the guy evaded me, and a good personal/vehicle description got him arrested by the cops who were on their way to meet me to take a report.

I would be "disentangling" your CCW and CA in your mind.

DMacLeod
June 14, 2008, 09:39 PM
My thoughts on CA; If you want to arrest someone go through the police academy.....................

#20fan
June 14, 2008, 09:46 PM
(Penal Code Section 837).

#20fan
June 14, 2008, 09:55 PM
keep droping between typing a reply and posting, only puts sig.
O well

hoytinak
June 14, 2008, 10:06 PM
I got woke up to 2 kids ( I say kids but they were 19 & 20) trying to steal my boat about 3am a couple years ago. I walked outside with my Mossberg and told them to get on the ground, they did and I called the sheriff (who is a good friend of mine and we don't have any city police in my town). They stayed there till he showed up and picked them up. I guess the sheriff's department had been looking for them for a while for stealing a bunch of other stuff. If I wasn't good friends with the sheriff I prolly would have just got their plate number called it in as they wouldn't haven gotten too far around here.

Recon7
June 14, 2008, 10:38 PM
if you f#(& it up you will get charged with kidnapping. imho there are too many lawyers in this world to be doing that stuff.

BikerRN
June 15, 2008, 05:27 AM
My thoughts on CA; If you want to arrest someone go through the police academy.....................

Exactly!

Nothing good comes from an amatuer trying to do a professional's job. There is a difference between "Holding Somebody At Gunpoint" until the LEO's show up and attempting to make a Citizen's Arrest.

Biker

johnwilliamson062
June 15, 2008, 06:23 AM
Holding someone at gunpoint holds the same risk of being sued for illegal detention(I believe this is the actual charge in this situation). When I was a security guard in college we were told not even to stand in the way of anyone as this could cause them to be intimidated and feel detained leading to a lawsuit.
Too many lawyers is right on. Per capita we have about three times as many lawyers as in 1960. It has been a while since I read this stat, but I am pretty sure 3 was the number. It would be nice if law schools would get alittle more selective about who they let in.

Keltyke
June 15, 2008, 08:15 AM
CA varies from state to state. Check the laws in yours.

If you're that down on CCW, then don't get your license or carry. The class I took contained a lot of good information concerning where I may carry, and when I can shoot. It also had sections on proper gun handling and safety. The test is a "no-brainer" only if you have no brains. Otherwise, it affirms what you know to yourself and to the authorities. Since I had my CWP the first time, the laws in my state had changed a lot and I was glad to be re-educated on them.

mes228
June 15, 2008, 09:11 AM
I know a man that heard a noise on his car port. Only to discover two thieves stealing several hundred dollars worth of his new bicycles. They ran to their open top Jeep car, pitched the bicycles in the back and fled. He jumped in his vehicle and pursued them. The thieves became lost/confused in the subdivision and ended up in a dead end with no escape. Long story short, not knowing if they were armed, he rammed them in the side of the Jeep pushing it over an embankment. He thought they might be armed, exit the vehicle and start shooting , so he rammed them. This took the flee and fight out of them. He made a Citizen arrest and held them until the police arrived. I don't think he was armed. Bottom line is he was in way more trouble than the thieves. And it cost him thousands to to avoid about a dozen charges and law suits. I feel he was justified in doing what he did. However, the system sure didn't.

Chuck Dye
June 15, 2008, 10:42 AM
My training in citizen's arrest in California, now decades old, was that there are two differences in the arrest process between the sworn and the unsworn. Sworn personnel have authority to act on infractions and sworn personnel get to say 'Oooops!" The sworn officer who makes an incorrect arrest may suffer departmental discipline but is more or less untouchable in civil court. Blow a citizen's arrest and you might get skinned in civil court. Use of force or a weapon sweetens the pot.

WIN71
June 15, 2008, 11:04 AM
837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

839. Any person making an arrest may orally summon as many persons
as he deems necessary to aid him therein.

840. An arrest for the commission of a felony may be made on any
day and at any time of the day or night. An arrest for the
commission of a misdemeanor or an infraction cannot be made between
the hours of 10 o'clock p.m. of any day and 6 o'clock a.m. of the
succeeding day, unless:
(1) The arrest is made without a warrant pursuant to Section 836
or 837.
(2) The arrest is made in a public place.
(3) The arrest is made when the person is in custody pursuant to
another lawful arrest.
(4) The arrest is made pursuant to a warrant which, for good cause
shown, directs that it may be served at any time of the day or
night.

841. The person making the arrest must inform the person to be
arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest,
and the authority to make it, except when the person making the
arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested
is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an
offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after
its commission, or after an escape.
The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is
arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being
arrested.

AutoPistola
June 15, 2008, 03:23 PM
Keltyke, the only reason I'm down on my state CCW is because I recently took a class for the Utah licence; the instructor was a former lawyer and talked to us mostly about laws for 5 hours. A non-resident Utah CCW would grant me more rights than my state one (which is really only good for carrying on person or in car, nothing else). I learned a lot about how fickle the law can be, and honestly lost more respect for the way the system really works.

I'm not saying I want to arrest or detain someone, but it would be a great alternative to shooting someone who's obviously intentful on doing myself or others harm.

Lawyer Daggit
June 15, 2008, 05:27 PM
Detaining a private person at gun point under circumstances where they can say they were fearful of their life...

I do hope you can make the charge that they are allegedly guilty of stick. Incidentally it had better be a serious felony. Personally I would not use a firearm in respect to a property offence and in most situations I would concentrate on getting a good description and let the professionals deal with it.

Otherwise the person charged with a felony will be you- kidnapping.

In Australia you would also have all manner of problems retaining your firearms licence.

LostOne
June 15, 2008, 07:47 PM
Its not your place, you aren't the police. Your CCW is for self protection, not to run around thinking your the sheriff.

hoytinak
June 15, 2008, 08:09 PM
Your CCW is for self protection

and your property...depending on state of course ;)

Rich Miranda
June 15, 2008, 09:17 PM
I learned a lot about how fickle the [CCW] law can be, and honestly lost more respect for the way the system really works.

I have to agree. To actually use your legally-carried weapon opens the door to numerous legal problems, both criminal and civil.

On the other hand, if you really did defend your life, it doesn't matter, does it? Better to live with legal problems than to be dead. Of course, if you properly employ the use of defensive deadly force, the criminal risk should be low. Civil is more of a crap-shoot. Can you say tort reform?

aroundlsu
June 16, 2008, 10:50 AM
The non-resident Utah permit will not give you more rights than your state issued permit. You must abide by whichever states CCW rules that you happen to be at the time. If your state's permit is restrictive then your Utah permit will be just as restrictive.

Also, on the surface, all the restrictions may sound like a lot but in the end don't really add up to a whole lot in your day to day life. My states rules fill a handbook but about the only time I really seriously need to disarm is when exiting my vehicle on school grounds. "Accidently" breaking any of the other rules will only result in suspension for 30 days or (worst case) revocation of the permit for a year or so. It's a civil matter and no one is going to jail over it.

The important thing is to have the weapon on you when you REALLY need it, have a lawyer on retainer, and worry about the rules and regulations later if you're still breathing.

Ruthless4christ
June 19, 2008, 03:35 PM
Its not your place, you aren't the police. Your CCW is for self protection, not to run around thinking your the sheriff.

After WIN71 showed us that it is our legel right to do so I would be inclined to say you are wrong on that we are not the police. The original porpose of the Police was regular citizins who get paid to uphold the law and carry out justice. Now that the country is federalized and we look at the police more like soldiers we forget what the citizen´s arrest was placed there to remind us. that we the people need to run this country.

Its easy to run to the back of the store and hide, when we know the cops will get here in under three minutes NOW, but it would be good to remember that most of the rest of the world does not have this privalige and good things never last. I think it would be a good thing for people to start stepping up to the plate, preparing for the day when 911 is no longer an option.

B. Lahey
June 19, 2008, 03:41 PM
All I remember about the citizen's arrest from my criminal law class last year is that you MUST be right. There is no room for "I had a reasonable belief there was a felony in progress" arguments. If your arrest is not totally justified, you are the criminal.

It may vary by state, though, and I am not a lawyer yet.

travisdj
June 19, 2008, 04:55 PM
I look at it this way, if the offense is not enough for me to shoot them dead I'm not getting involved. CCWs are pretty much worthless. One small infraction and you are still in hot water.

AutoPistola
June 20, 2008, 04:15 AM
I don't place much trust in LE, 911, etc. I live rurally, but the last time we needed police help (domestic violence) it was in SLC and it took about 25min before they arrived.

BTW I am not about playing sheriff... sheesh! I find it kind of offensive when you jump to such conclusions.

PT111
June 20, 2008, 07:29 AM
I am not sure what the question about citizen's arrest and CWP/CCW/CHL or whaetver has to with each other. A CCW only provides the legality of being able to carry a weapon in places that you could not legally do so before. It does nothing to give you any more rights as far as protecting yourself or making arrests or playing sheriff.

If you thought that by having a CCW would allow you to make arrests, fight crime and play Dirty Harry or Death Wish then you should be very dissappointed and put your gun away. You go to Wal-Mart and stop a robbery in progress by shooting the BG the only difference between having a permit and not having one is with the permit you won't be charged for having a weapon ilegally. The rest of the laws are the same.

Keltyke
June 20, 2008, 08:50 AM
You people who want to run around making citizen's arrests scare me more than the perps do. Y'all sound like Gomer on Andy Griffith, "Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!"

The concept of UNTRAINED private personnel attempting to detain a BG is idiotic at best. The least case scenario is you get yourself shot. The worst case is you get an innocent bystander shot when the BG decides he isn't gonna just lay down and let you arrest him. A lot of people don't have much respect for the uniform/authority of a LEO. How much respect do you think they will show an individual in civilian clothing?

We are NOT trained to act or serve as LEOs. To the poster who said a citizen's arrest is preferable to shooting the guy: If you don't have a 100% valid reason for shooting him, you should have never pulled your weapon.

A CWP is for self protection from an imminent threat ONLY. It doesn't enable or justify the holder to run around acting like some vigilante militia in the old West. Negate the threat, then let the official LEOs take over. Grow up, people, don't play cops and robbers (bang, bang, you're dead) or someone just might be.

Look at this scenario: You come upon someone mugging an old man. You pull your weapon and order him to stop, and you tell him he's under arrest. What's gonna happen? The first thing is he'll look at you, in civilian clothing, and he'll take off running with you chasing him hollering "citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!" Now that you've made your citizen's arrest move, what'cha now. Keep chasing him? You can't catch him, he's flying like the wind. You CANNOT shoot him. When he's running away from you, there is no imminent threat, and you can't use deadly force to enable a citizen's arrest. You're gonna stand there, out of breath, at a fence he scaled with one jump, and look really DUMB.

What should have happened: Same scenario - "Stop or I'll shoot!" He takes off running. You watch until you are sure he's no longer a threat, then you tend to the old guys injuries and stick around to give a good description to the LEOs.

The alternate way it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed.

Or, he could advance on you with a club in his hand and you have to shoot him dead. No citizen's arrest needed there, either.

nemoaz
June 20, 2008, 09:25 AM
The alternate way it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed.

Your legal analysis is flawed and shallow. This could easily be regarded as a citizen's arrest or, according to the scumbag's attorney, an illegal detention/false arrest or kidnapping. (Kidnapping usually requires asportation- meaning moving the person.)

Your (the whole thread not the poster in particular) knee jerk reaction to citizen's arrest is probablematic in my view. Citizen's arrest should be encouraged. This is exactly what should be happening in our streets, instead of these video beatings with thousands of people walking by and ignoring the situation.

I think everyone is hung up on the thought of walking up and saying "I'm making a citizen's arrest. Stop in the name of the law!" Those words aren't necessary to initiate a citizen's arrest. Holding someone using force or threat of force (implied or not) is probably a citizen's arrest. If it were not, you'd be committing a crime when you do these things.

Yes, carrying a gun for defense and-- God-forbid-- being forced to either use it for defense or to arrest someone does create some legal liability. Better to put on some birkenstocks and walk around unarmed? You make the choice. In my view. CCW laws, Castle doctrines, defense of property, and citizen's arrest laws all go hand in hand in our efforts to take our country back from the criminals coddled by the left and liberal judges.

PT111
June 20, 2008, 11:30 AM
Your (the whole thread not the poster in particular) knee jerk reaction to citizen's arrest is probablematic in my view. Citizen's arrest should be encouraged. This is exactly what should be happening in our streets, instead of these video beatings with thousands of people walking by and ignoring the situation.

I think everyone is hung up on the thought of walking up and saying "I'm making a citizen's arrest. Stop in the name of the law!" Those words aren't necessary to initiate a citizen's arrest. Holding someone using force or threat of force (implied or not) is probably a citizen's arrest. If it were not, you'd be committing a crime when you do these things.

Yes, carrying a gun for defense and-- God-forbid-- being forced to either use it for defense or to arrest someone does create some legal liability. Better to put on some birkenstocks and walk around unarmed? You make the choice. In my view. CCW laws, Castle doctrines, defense of property, and citizen's arrest laws all go hand in hand in our efforts to take our country back from the criminals coddled by the left and liberal judges.

I disagree with you analysis and though process about citizen's arrest. The average citizen and yes I mean average but that will be covered later can make a citizen's arrest but it would bevery east to screw it up beyond repair. Take the example of pulling gun on a BG and yelling "Stop, you are under arrest". Do you expect the BG to stop and wait patiently until the cops arrive, to hold his hands up or behind his back so the mall ninja can put handcuffs on him. I expect the BG to do exactly what they do when the cops yell stop, to run. What are you going to do if he runs away? If you shoot him you better hope I am not on the jury and I know I will get flamed for that. Let's say you get you ninja handcuffs on him and he runs, what then? As someone else posted this whole thing reeks of Barney Fife.

And to the topic about CCW's. If you are involved in something they are going to ask if you have a CCW to determine if you were legally carrying and that is the end of it. A CCW gives you no more right to claim citizen's arrest, shoot someone or point gun or wave it around than anyone else. People need to learn that by having a ccw and carrying a gun doesn't turn you into a deputy, you remain a private citizen and have less authority than Barney Fife. Go ahead with your citizen's arrenst but you better be right.

nemoaz
June 20, 2008, 02:13 PM
And to the topic about CCW's. If you are involved in something they are going to ask if you have a CCW to determine if you were legally carrying and that is the end of it. A CCW gives you no more right to claim citizen's arrest, shoot someone or point gun or wave it around than anyone else. People need to learn that by having a ccw and carrying a gun doesn't turn you into a deputy, you remain a private citizen and have less authority than Barney Fife. Go ahead with your citizen's arrenst but you better be right.Personally, I don't have to worry about citizen's arrest.

And I'm not going to argue with you about the legalities. You can believe me or not. I've got the JD and years of experience prosecuting and defending criminal case in court prior to entering my current position. I don't know what your experience is.

What I'm telling you is that many scenarios that have been mentioned ARE citizen's arrest, even if you don't yell "I'm making a citizen's arrest."

PT111
June 20, 2008, 02:26 PM
So you are saying that if you have a CCW then you should start running around arresting anyone that you think is breaking the law? Since you evidently are an attorney then can you provide us with your contact information so we can call you when we get arrested for shooting someone in the back while they are trying to escape. Are you going to defend us pro-bono?

M1911
June 20, 2008, 02:34 PM
I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.
The purpose of your CCW is to protect yourself and your family from death or grave bodily injury.

Your CCW permit does not make you a cop. If you want to arrest people, then join a police force and go to the police academy.

nemoaz
June 20, 2008, 02:35 PM
No one said anything about CCW or handcuffs. Stop playing the red herring game. Citizen's arrest has nothing to do with handcuffs or saying "Stop in the name of the law" or a CCW. Like I said, many of the scenarios mentioned are in fact arrests, probably legal but arrests never the less. YOU SAID "it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed." That is an arrest. Just because you are ignorant of the law doesn't change the application of the law. You see a street urchan beating up an old lady, approach with a baseball bat in your hand and hold him until the police arrive. You have probably arrested him. No CCW, no gun, no handcuffs, no yelling "I'm making a citizen's arrest."

No, I will not send you my contact info. I'm not soliciting ANY clients (not currently in a position that allows private clients) and probably am not licensed in your state anyway. You should seek counsel in your local area.

PT111
June 20, 2008, 05:34 PM
No one said anything about CCW or handcuffs. Stop playing the red herring game. Citizen's arrest has nothing to do with handcuffs or saying "Stop in the name of the law" or a CCW. Like I said, many of the scenarios mentioned are in fact arrests, probably legal but arrests never the less. YOU SAID "it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed." That is an arrest. Just because you are ignorant of the law doesn't change the application of the law. You see a street urchan beating up an old lady, approach with a baseball bat in your hand and hold him until the police arrive. You have probably arrested him. No CCW, no gun, no handcuffs, no yelling "I'm making a citizen's arrest."

No, I will not send you my contact info. I'm not soliciting ANY clients (not currently in a position that allows private clients) and probably am not licensed in your state anyway. You should seek counsel in your local area.

I have looked bac through this thread and don't see where I said, implied or inferred that statement. It was said but not by me that I saw.

KYCOP
June 20, 2008, 07:08 PM
A couple of weeks ago at our local WAL_MART a person with a CCW THOUGHT he saw a crime being commited. He undertakes to detain the alleged BG. Then he makes a really bad mistake . When the guy begins to resist him, both verbally and physically. He gets scared and tells the guy he is a policeman, he then puts his weapon to the guys head. He is lucky he didn't get disarmed at this point. Makes the guy lay down, and is sitting on him with his weapon still at his head when our guys arrive. He was promptly arrested and charged with WANTON ENDANGERMENT 1st, UNLAWFUL IMPRISONMENT, and IMPERSONATING A POLICE OFFICER. He is looking at a maximum of 10 yrs. in prison. The least that will happen, is he will lose his CCW for life, and a civil lawsuit.

AutoPistola
June 20, 2008, 07:25 PM
What an F'n power-trippin' idiot!

I'm really suprised to see what this thread turned into...A red herring arguement about Barney.

Unfortunately, we are now at the point in society where people are afraid of the legal repercussions of helping other people, even to the extent of ignoring those getting violently beat.

My course instructor (ex-lawyer) blatantly said "I am a hypocrite; if I see you getting mugged, I'll turn the other way. If I'm getting mugged, then by all means please help!"

I guess people are more afraid of legal injustices than physical ones.

Davis
June 20, 2008, 07:37 PM
Of course, Bounty Hunters institute a citizens arrest every time they apprehend a criminal.

Davis

nemoaz
June 21, 2008, 12:04 AM
My course instructor (ex-lawyer) blatantly said "I am a hypocrite; if I see you getting mugged, I'll turn the other way. If I'm getting mugged, then by all means please help!"That is unfortunately what most lawyers will say. The least legal exposure for the client is for him to simply walk away.

I know cops who feel the same way. "Hey, man. I'm off duty. Let the locals or on duty guys deal with it."

PT, sorry for misquoting you. I was confused about who wrote what.

Then he makes a really bad mistake . When the guy begins to resist him, both verbally and physically. He gets scared and tells the guy he is a policeman, he then puts his weapon to the guys head. He is lucky he didn't get disarmed at this point.He clearly doesn't need to be carrying.

gvf
June 21, 2008, 01:50 AM
The purpose of your CCW is to protect yourself and your family from death or grave bodily injury.
Your CCW permit does not make you a cop. If you want to arrest people, then join a police force and go to the police academy.

Well said. But even that gives a CCW holder some assumption of shooting rights. CCW law only refers to waiver from the Gun Law prohibition against carrying dangerous weapons (if there is one in your state). That's it. It does not bestow any rights or privileges beyond that: including shooting people, or citizen's arrest OR anything else to do with Self-Defense. None of this is mentioned.

As far as Self-Defense: you have the same rights as anyone else - and no other. SD Law doesn't mention guns either, is not about guns, or shooting people either. It's simply not mentioned.Nor is any other tool, method, implement etc. It's not about that. It defines conditions under which a potentially lethal defensive action rises to the level of a Justification for homicide for anyone.

Citizen's Arrest? Same. Whatever the local laws are, they are for anyone, not carriers of guns.

So, you have the right to legally have a certain tool on your person.

And you're just a citizen walking down the street like everybody else.

If you understand that, you are much more likely to do what everyone else does: live your life and if some extremely rare event happens, only defend yourself or anyone else if it is truly the last resort because you are going to die NOW. And you won't likely be running around looking to arrest people, but call the cops : who are completely different in powers and training than you are.

nemoaz
June 21, 2008, 10:41 AM
+1 Gvf.

M1911
June 21, 2008, 11:03 AM
A couple of weeks ago at our local WAL_MART a person with a CCW THOUGHT he saw a crime being commited. He undertakes to detain the alleged BG. Then he makes a really bad mistake . When the guy begins to resist him, both verbally and physically. He gets scared and tells the guy he is a policeman, he then puts his weapon to the guys head. He is lucky he didn't get disarmed at this point. Makes the guy lay down, and is sitting on him with his weapon still at his head when our guys arrive. He was promptly arrested and charged with WANTON ENDANGERMENT 1st, UNLAWFUL IMPRISONMENT, and IMPERSONATING A POLICE OFFICER. He is looking at a maximum of 10 yrs. in prison. The least that will happen, is he will lose his CCW for life, and a civil lawsuit.

Thanks for the vivid example of the perils of intervening in the "defense" of a third party. I'm not saying I would never come to the aid of a third party, but my inclination would be to stay out of it, get to cover, and call 911.

Here's a scenario. You are in the parking lot at the local strip mall, about to get into your car. You see a man burst out the door of a store, running as fast as he can. A couple seconds later, another man bursts out of the store chasing the first man. The second man has a gun in his hand.

What have you just witnessed? A jealous boyfriend chasing a rival? The shop owner chasing a robber? An undercover cop chasing a suspect?

nstoolman1
June 21, 2008, 11:22 AM
All I can say to this thread is be grateful you guys that live in states that are CCW friendly. In California you have to show "good cause". And no "it's my 2dA right" doesn't cut it. You have to show good cause where your life or family has been threatened. Or your job is one where you need it. IE: transporting large amounts of cash or valuables. I pass every requirement on the list that prevents someone from CCW except the "good cause". I thank God I have not had me or my family in the position to show "good cause". I'm sorry about the rant but for someone to say their CCW is just about worthless I wish I had the opportunity to CCW and be in a legal position to carry the tool(s) necessary to defend my life and my family.

Dewhitewolf
June 22, 2008, 10:14 AM
NJ's law on citizen's arrest requires the arrester to have witnessed an indictable offense. The arrestee is under no obligation to submit to an order for citizen's arrest, but by clearly asserting "citizen's arrest," the arrester reduces (does not eliminate) liability. It becomes a liability on the arrestee if the arrestee resists arrest or assaults the arrester. The arrester still acts at his own peril and must be willing to defend his actions in court. Both the police, as well as the courts, will be quite curious as to why you initiated a citizen's arrest, and why you didn't use other options (such as contact police or flee the scene). They will also inquire as to your knowledge about the application of law regarding citizen's arrest. As far as drawing a weapon on somebody, as a civilian you are guilty until proven innocent.

The arrester must also use restraints that will not cause harm to the arrestee. The arrester must also transport the arrestee to a magistrate (the law is quite outdated; if it were to happen today, it would be to a county jail). However, I cannot imagine how jail officers will react to a civilian bringing in an arrested individual.

Police departments (and even private security) have specific regulations they have to follow regarding arrest procedure; some are state requirements, some are department requirements. All requirements are in place for a reason; to prevent the police from acting in a "Dirty Harry" fashion. What's to stop an armed citizen trying to make a citizen's arrest from acting in such a way?

A carry permit (whether here or anywhere else) does not give power of arrest. It only gives you the right to carry in public. Using it, whether to defend yourself against an armed threat, brandishing it to scare someone, or drawing it to try to arrest someone, becomes an action that you must be able to defend in court. Assuming that the law will be on your side is foolish.

I think the only reason that citizen's arrest existed in the first place was because of a lack of law enforcement earlier in history. I further think that NJ's current law assumes that the arrester is a former or retired police officer, and that is the only reason that it is not outlawed altogether. Just my opinions, though.

My advice is this--don't try to make a citizen's arrest unless you are willing to accept all consequences for your actions.

TexasSeaRay
June 22, 2008, 04:50 PM
Take the example of pulling gun on a BG and yelling "Stop, you are under arrest".

Hmmm. I can't remember in all the years I was in LE ever pulling my gun and yelling, "Stop, you are under arrest."

When I pulled my gun, a whole string of expletives left my mouth, usually ending with "Get on the (more expletives) ground right (more expletives) now!" or "Hands up (expletive expletive expletive expletive) or I'll (expletive expletive expletive) shoot you!"

Maybe our sisters in the FBI would yell, "Stop! FBI! You're under arrest," but we sure didn't.

Jeff

bds32
June 23, 2008, 01:19 PM
This whole debate is why I love Texas. The defense of self, property, third parties and third parties' property is perfectly lawful as long as it's to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary...

Heck you can put a guy down for stealing your car at "nighttime" and not face any criminal charges.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.002.00.000009.00.htm#9.01.00

There isn't a Grand Jury in the State of Texas that would indict a citizen who stopped the criminal actions of a felony suspect by holding him at gunpoint (the equivalent to a "Citizen's Arrest"). Most Texas police officers don't even blink an eye and would be glad for the help (I know am).

Know your state laws and know yourself before acting. Just don't let some innocent die because you are afraid of getting sued. I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier statement that we need to take the country back from the criminals.

spacemanspiff
June 23, 2008, 01:37 PM
Up here in Alaska, this is called Private Person Arrest, I have done several while working at the bar. It would also be the same as when a stores loss-prevention department arrests a shoplifter.

Any citizen has the right to detain and apprehend an individual they observe committing a crime. Most of my arrests were for minors trying to get in the bar, the rest were for assault & battery. Almost everyone has cooperated, those who didn't wish they had.

The next step of the PPA is to complete a statement, this will have all of your pertinent info (name, address, phone number, drivers license number); the info of the person being arrested, and detailed account of what happened. It is important not to speculate on this, but give exactly what you saw/heard, not what someone else saw/heard. You have to be willing to testify to everything you put down in writing, and expect for your statement to be challenged by a competant attorney. Often the police that take your suspect will help you with your statement. You need a copy, as does the officer.

Of the 25+ I have arrested or assisted to arrest, only twice have I been subpoenaed (sp?), both times the defendant changed plea so I didn't have to appear.

Creature
June 23, 2008, 01:44 PM
Everyone should re-read gvf's post (#37) over and over. In it, gvf makes a very important point that everyone who does CCW should understand thoroughly.

PT111
June 23, 2008, 03:12 PM
Everyone should re-read gvf's post (#37) over and over. In it, gvf makes a very important point that everyone who does CCW should understand thoroughly.

I agree. This thread started with the OP being disturbed that a CCW was a waste since he couldn't use his gun for a "citizen's arrest". I don't think anyone has argued the point that it can be but haveing a CCW doesn't give you any additional authority to perform CA or personal defense than you would have otherwise. That is a very important detail that should be driven into the head of every CCW holder or average citizen to start with. There are many that think just because they have a CCW or even a notary public seal they all of a sudden become a deputy sheriff. Why else would you want to run around with a Concealed Weapons Permit badge on? But in the same vein there are some that think the same way if they OC even when there is no requirements other than not being a felon.

How many posts have we seen by someone asking if getting their CCW requires them to get involved in a crime they see happening. Simple answer is the same laws that require you to get involved if you don't have a permit.

Th0r
June 25, 2008, 04:19 PM
In the UK anyone making a citizens arrest can be arrested on charges of kidnap. Nevermind the severity of the crime the arrested individual commited...

FerFAL
June 27, 2008, 05:07 PM
Is it only in movies?
I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.

Your gun is to be used in defense of your life, and the life of others against illegitimate aggressions that could end up in death.

This applies in my country and I’m sure it works in USA that way too.

Even if you can arrest someone, if someone threatened me in such a way I had a legitimate right to use my gun against him, do I want him coming back for revenge?

I know many cases where people did just that and they later got killed, hurt or had to move because of the constant harassment by the criminals and their family and friends.

The only situation where I’m not shooting is when the bad guy turns and runs like there’s no tomorrow. Otherwise I’m ending this threat to my life right away.

FerFAL

PT111
June 27, 2008, 05:40 PM
An old fellow that I used to hang around with had been shot, cut beaten and been on the sending end of those many times. How he had never been involved in a fatal altercation is a miracle. Anyway he used to tell me that if you wanted to make sure someone left you alone after a fight you had to cut them and leave them holding their guts in their hands. Otherwise they or thier family would come after you. However if you left them holding their life in their hands it would break them on that bad habit.

I don't know but I do know that he had more experience at that type stuff than anyone else I have ever known so I put faith in what he said. he would not ride in the middle of the seat of a pick-up. He either rode against the door or on the back due to experience.

Derius_T
June 28, 2008, 02:06 AM
Your Concealed Carry Permit is ONLY for carry for personal self defense. It does not grant you any powers to arrest, detain, question, or otherwise harass another person, UNLESS that person is attempting to do serious bodily harm to you, or kill you or yours.

If you feel the need to arrest someone, please go through the police training necessary in your state and get a badge. That citizens arrest crap is nothing but ammunition for the lawyers who will eat you alive for playing at johnny law.

PT111
June 28, 2008, 08:09 AM
Your Concealed Carry Permit is ONLY for carry for personal self defense.

Technically that is not correct. Your permit only provides that you may carry a concealed weapon in certain places without getting arrested, nothing else. Any self-defense actions are covered under separate laws and would be the same whether you have a permit or not. Having a permit grants you no special self-protection status or any other right other than "permission" to have the gun on you rather than resorting to a knife, brass knuckles or some other type of protection.

Seawolf_504
July 1, 2008, 01:50 AM
Some of you guys need to go back and really re read this post -

You people who want to run around making citizen's arrests scare me more than the perps do. Y'all sound like Gomer on Andy Griffith, "Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!"

The concept of UNTRAINED private personnel attempting to detain a BG is idiotic at best. The least case scenario is you get yourself shot. The worst case is you get an innocent bystander shot when the BG decides he isn't gonna just lay down and let you arrest him. A lot of people don't have much respect for the uniform/authority of a LEO. How much respect do you think they will show an individual in civilian clothing?

We are NOT trained to act or serve as LEOs. To the poster who said a citizen's arrest is preferable to shooting the guy: If you don't have a 100% valid reason for shooting him, you should have never pulled your weapon.

A CWP is for self protection from an imminent threat ONLY. It doesn't enable or justify the holder to run around acting like some vigilante militia in the old West. Negate the threat, then let the official LEOs take over. Grow up, people, don't play cops and robbers (bang, bang, you're dead) or someone just might be.

Look at this scenario: You come upon someone mugging an old man. You pull your weapon and order him to stop, and you tell him he's under arrest. What's gonna happen? The first thing is he'll look at you, in civilian clothing, and he'll take off running with you chasing him hollering "citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!" Now that you've made your citizen's arrest move, what'cha now. Keep chasing him? You can't catch him, he's flying like the wind. You CANNOT shoot him. When he's running away from you, there is no imminent threat, and you can't use deadly force to enable a citizen's arrest. You're gonna stand there, out of breath, at a fence he scaled with one jump, and look really DUMB.

What should have happened: Same scenario - "Stop or I'll shoot!" He takes off running. You watch until you are sure he's no longer a threat, then you tend to the old guys injuries and stick around to give a good description to the LEOs.

The alternate way it could go down is you draw down on the guy and he lays down in surrender. Then you hold him for the cops. No citizen's arrest needed.

Or, he could advance on you with a club in his hand and you have to shoot him dead. No citizen's arrest needed there, either.


The only thing I will say as an LEO is that some of you people in this thread scare the crap out of me with your logic and decision making. If you aren't carefull you are going to end up behind bars yourself.

There is a popular phrase around the CWP crowd that says, "I carry a firearm because I can't carry a cop" well that doesn't mean you suddenly become one either.
Now don't get me wrong. If you are confronted with a deadly threat and you fear for your own life then by all means front site, push, and drop that SOB, but do not let the power of having that gun confuse you into thinking you are now some sort of citizen cop and bullet proof because you aren't.


Something else I want to mention while we are on this subject. If you are ever involved in a shoot/no shoot situation and the Police arrive on scene with you standing over a guy with your gun pointed at him just remember that to us EVERYONE is a threat and a possible bad guy until we can secure the scene and determine what happened. Don't be surprised to have several guns pointed at you if this is the case and you will be treated like an armed suspect until proven otherwise so be prepared.

gvf
July 1, 2008, 02:33 AM
Your permit only provides that you may carry a concealed weapon in certain places without getting arrested, nothing else. Any self-defense actions are covered under separate laws and would be the same whether you have a permit or not. Having a permit grants you no special self-protection status or any other right other than "permission" to have the gun on you rather than resorting to a knife, brass knuckles or some other type of protection.

I've posted much the same, and the LEO poster above is posting much of the same, so do others, yet many still don't seem to understand the basic legal premise of the CCW they have in their wallets.

How can this BE?? How can so many be oblivious to the basic purpose of what they must have been licensed to have. It's like having a driver's license and believing you can cite others for traffic violations or transport the ill to emergency rooms with it.

If you don't understand CCW and you didn't have to in order to get it, for the love of heaven go do so now. It is not ethical to carry around a little machine that can kill people by pressing a switch and not understand what you can do with it under CCW Law (JUST CARRY IT) - and what you can't.(EVERYTHING ELSE)

And what you can do under SD Law (WHAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN) and what special powers you have in addition to that (NONE)

Yet these are often the same people who brag about how easy it is to get a CCW in their locale and look down on "tyrannical other states" for requiring some basic knowledge or skills. Well, the perfect argument for continued restrictions on licensing - within the limits of the 2nd A. under the recent SCOTUS ruling - is these woefully oblivious cowboy posts. Yes you do need more restrictions, a primer class in basic CCW and SD Law with a requirement in testing - or some objective evaluation - that this information is actually understood. You live in society with 300,000,000 others, not on a mountain top by yourself.

Derius_T
July 1, 2008, 04:54 PM
Your Concealed Carry Permit is ONLY for carry for personal self defense.

PT111 wrote:

Technically that is not correct. Your permit only provides that you may carry a concealed weapon in certain places without getting arrested, nothing else. Any self-defense actions are covered under separate laws and would be the same whether you have a permit or not. Having a permit grants you no special self-protection status or any other right other than "permission" to have the gun on you rather than resorting to a knife, brass knuckles or some other type of protection.

I said it allows you to CARRY a gun for self defense purposes. I guess I should have emphasized the carry part more for our slower readers? Sorry I assumed people who had them understood what a CARRY permit was. I also assumed everyone knew that a human being HAS THE RIGHT TO PRESERVE THEIR OWN LIFE, and needs no law to tell us so.

PT111
July 1, 2008, 05:58 PM
I also assumed everyone knew that a human being HAS THE RIGHT TO PRESERVE THEIR OWN LIFE, and needs no law to tell us so.

Exactly and you do not need a gun to do that. People get all hung up on the only protection available is a gun and without one you are doomed. There are many other methods of protection besides a gun. A CCW permit does not say that you can protect yourself and it does not say that you can use a gun to protect yourself. I "allows" you to carry a gun and what you do with it is immaterial to whether or not you have a permit or whether or not you use it to defend yourself. It is not a self-protection permit. You don't need a permit for that as you so bluntly put it.

.300H&H
July 1, 2008, 06:12 PM
A citizen's arrest is one of those things that 'can' be done, but should be strongly strongly avoided. Sorta like ice skating on a frozen river - it can be legally done in certain areas in early Spring, but I sure wouldn't recommend it. The only citizen's arrest I remember that was appropriate and carried out well - was when a local physician some years ago followed <pre-cell phone era>and stopped an extremely intoxicated individual/driver from getting back in a car. Incidentally, no firearm was used and the physician making the citizen's arrest verbally told the person that he was making a citizen's arrest and persuaded the individual to wait until the police arrived.<in the cell phone era even that would probably not be required these days.>



If there was a situation even where someone demanded or begged me to make a citizen's arrest, I wouldn't do it. I'll call the police. I'll be a good witness and I'll defend myself and others - but when a person injects themself into a situation and starts becoming a 'legal enforcer' rather than a 'personal defender' - the ice gets very thin and things get nasty and start boomeranging. I'd rather explain how I had to defend myself on my own property than how I had to chase after someone and make a citizen's arrest on somebody else's property...;) They're not very fun. There's more pleasant things to do in life. If one needs an adrenalin rush, I'd suggest noodling for catfish or ridin a roller coaster at the amuzement park. :D

zxcvbob
July 1, 2008, 06:41 PM
I said it allows you to CARRY a gun for self defense purposes. I guess I should have emphasized the carry part more for our slower readers? Sorry I assumed people who had them understood what a CARRY permit was. I also assumed everyone knew that a human being HAS THE RIGHT TO PRESERVE THEIR OWN LIFE, and needs no law to tell us so.

I believe the permit just allows you to legally carry a gun. Full stop. No presumption of *why* you want to carry it.

Recon7
July 1, 2008, 07:06 PM
Sorta like ice skating on a frozen river

but... but... I've been carrying the "skates" IWB and am just itching to use it.:D

Too many lawyers out there.

Derius_T
July 2, 2008, 01:09 PM
Look nitpickers, we all know that a carry permit is to carry a gun, and gives you no other rights and privleges. We also know what 99.9% of people carry a gun FOR, so why the ball busting? Nothing better to do, or are you lawyers? Sheesh. :rolleyes:

And all this blah, blah, full stop. crap. Do you actually talk like that with your friends, or just trying to look self important on the internet? I vote for the latter.....

bigjack59
July 2, 2008, 02:22 PM
IN SC the law that allows you to carry a gun with a CCW is called "The Citizens Self Defense Act of 1996." No quibbling there. A citizen's arrest goes back to ye olde English Common Law, and in SC is only good for a felony. That problem is, are you sure it is a felony and are you sure you can handle what may happen when the BG doesn't comply?

PT111
July 2, 2008, 08:45 PM
Look nitpickers, we all know that a carry permit is to carry a gun, and gives you no other rights and privleges. We also know what 99.9% of people carry a gun FOR, so why the ball busting? Nothing better to do, or are you lawyers? Sheesh.

And all this blah, blah, full stop. crap. Do you actually talk like that with your friends, or just trying to look self important on the internet? I vote for the latter.....

If you go back and read the original post it did not appear that everyone knew that and was the start of this entire discussion.

Is it only in movies?
I was under the impression that you cannot legally detain a threat with a gun; perhaps the exclusion being if a criminal broke into your home.

I'm starting to think my CCW is just about worthless; it only allows me to carry in a way that my 2A rights already guarantee...but I have to submit personal info, take a no-brainer test, and pay $50+ to get my (neutered) guaranteed 2A rights.

vanguard_anon
July 4, 2008, 12:24 PM
I only scanned the thread but I'll add this. In my North Carolina CCW class they drilled into us that there is no citizens arrest in our state. He said it in the class, he had a handout with it, and it was on the test.

I'm sure it varies state to state but there is no citizens arrest in NC, period.

WIN71
July 4, 2008, 02:57 PM
there is no citizens arrest in NC, period. But there is a "Citizens Detention" under certain guidelines.

Seawolf_504
July 5, 2008, 02:39 PM
All I'm gonna say is 1- Good luck getting them to stop and 2- You better have your ducks in a row because some defense attorney is going to own your ass if you screw up.
You willing to give away everything you have worked for to the scumbag's family? I sure as hell ain't.