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Boris Bush
June 11, 2008, 07:16 AM
Not the static range you go to. I want to know where you plan on shooting and how much if you ever have to. By where I mean placement of your shot.

We all preach shot placement but what exactly do you shoot for, how many times and what will you do if it fails?

I shoot like most will. COM. I practice 2 COM, assess the situation and plant one COF (center of face) if the first two fail.

Some go for the hip and some keep on blasting COM no matter the result.

Do you practice failure (to stop the BG) drills?

Anyone got a story to tell, not many do but we can learn from every real life happening..............

Sigma 40 Blaster
June 11, 2008, 07:34 AM
I don't go center of mass, I go center of chest. Usually in groups of three.

For headshots I go for a 2x4 inch rectangle that is between the outside edges of the eyes between the top of the eyes and bottom of the nose.

Up to seven yards NP. At paper targets geared towards DEA or FBI qualifications, not the super human silhouettes used for most CHL stuff.

bigbadbowtie
June 11, 2008, 08:03 AM
I usually practice hitting center chest and center head.

Keltyke
June 11, 2008, 08:25 AM
Center chest, at the nipple line. Shoot until the threat is negated. I don't know how many I'd fire at first, probably two quick ones, BAMBAM, then reevaluate.

xrocket
June 11, 2008, 08:48 AM
.



My personal routine is "3 on 3" ... always.

Focus is on a quick three shot string in a triangle from the Adams apple and nipple to nipple and here's why. Picture a high centerline between the shoulders.

This area holds four opportunities for successfully cessation of hostilities. Heart, two lungs and spinal column. If I miss high it's the head. Miss low and it's the COM. Miss left or right and it's a potential incapacitation of the gun shoulder or arm. If I'm doing my part I'll be moving off center and Bg could be turning or bobbing around and I now have the potential to hit significant multiple internal areas (ex: shoulder, lung, heart transgression) with any one through shot.

There is nothing wrong with a COM point of view and it has been taught and practiced for a very long time with success. I just choose to practice a few inches higher and always in threes.

Focused "3 on 3" weekly practice with a purpose yields excellent results.



I need to add one very important point about my practice. I don't shoot full-size human silhouettes targets like most. I use the rifle silhouette target scaled to 25 yards. Visualize a half size torso target. With the half size target I practice shooting at the normal 3,7,15 yards. The idea here is:

Think small.
See small.
Aim small.
Shoot small.

Equals tighter hits on smaller target area.




.

TheNatureBoy
June 11, 2008, 04:33 PM
Upper torso.

wnycollector
June 11, 2008, 04:52 PM
I practice 2 and 1's (2 to the chest and 1 to the head) EVERY time I go to the range. Since I carry a revolver (S&W J frame) most of the time, shot placement and ammo conservation are critical;)

AK103K
June 11, 2008, 06:17 PM
COM/head mostly, and that can differ with distance and gun.

Up close, I tend to shoot for that little depression under the nose, head on, or anywhere along that horizontal line that intersects the base of the neck.

As the distance increases, COM first.

If your range allows, and I know a lot dont, realistic targets with people on them are much better to practice on than most other types. Bullseye targets are pretty much a waste. You can also get targets with views different than most usually shoot, like off to the side and side, which give a different perspective. Not all shots will be head on.

Avenger11
June 11, 2008, 06:19 PM
When I go to the range, I practice accuracy, function, reliability and safety. I do not focus on how I would kill another human being!! I'll leave that to the internet Machismo's here that don't have a clue what they would do in a real life threatening situation!!

AK103K
June 11, 2008, 06:32 PM
So they wont let you practice realistically at your range then, eh? Bummer. :)

Boris Bush
June 11, 2008, 07:12 PM
Avenger11


Keep in mind some people here go to a job everyday where they might need to use a pistol to end a life. When I go to work I practice for a "real life threatening situation", thankfuly not in this country. This internet "Machismo" has used lethal force in a life threatening situation.

Everyday the war goes on there is even more that have, just something to keep in mind......

Erik
June 11, 2008, 07:46 PM
"Where do you shoot?"

COM and head.

"We all preach shot placement but what exactly do you shoot for, how many times and what will you do if it fails?"

I shoot for the COM of the best target presented, as rapidly as possible. Depending on rate of fire, I practice to transition, as necessary, from COM to head after 2-4 shots.

"Do you practice failure (to stop the BG) drills?"

Yes; COM to head. (95% of my failure drill time is spent on COM and head with COM to pelvic girdle worked in occasisonally. My "default" is COM to head, though.)

Avenger11
June 11, 2008, 08:02 PM
My range is all about the fun and hobby of the shooting sport. Not about how best to kill someone!!

Rich Miranda
June 11, 2008, 08:02 PM
I never really thought about precise shot placement, to be perfectly honest.

I always imagine that I'd shoot COM (first time using that acronym) but I'm not sure. My range does not allow the use of anything but their own targets, which are just orange rings and a bullseye.

I'm not sure where I'd shoot a person, but I can sure shoot the heck out of a piece of paper! :D

Rich Miranda
June 11, 2008, 08:05 PM
My range is all about the fun and hobby of the shooting sport. Not about how best to kill someone!!

Ditto here. I would like to take some tactical training classes, but this is different to me than my (usually) weekly range shooting.

AK103K
June 11, 2008, 08:16 PM
My range is all about the fun and hobby of the shooting sport. Not about how best to kill someone!!
Theres plenty of the fun and hobby stuff too. Not knocking that at all, I shoot a number of different disciplines of the "sport". Its just that things are not always about fun and hobby, and if you carry one, you had better be in the right mind and be proficient with it.

Epyon
June 11, 2008, 09:17 PM
afford to do IDPA. That'd be fun to do.

bhornjr
June 12, 2008, 01:31 AM
Maybe I'm boring but I shoot Bullseye targets at my local indoor range. I practice two-handed, dominate hand and weakside for the bullseye, just trying to keep good groups.

gunman2000
June 12, 2008, 02:06 AM
i normally go com to head and always double tap

B.N.Real
June 12, 2008, 07:29 PM
Center of chest.

By the time you're going for a head shot,the perps going to be so close,he's committing suicide anyway.

I practice with the hostage target as well at seven yards.

Just in case,I have to save my wife's life from a burgular or attacker one day.

I can guarantee you I won't be discussing options with him if that ever happens.

AK103K
June 12, 2008, 07:47 PM
I practice with the hostage target as well at seven yards.
Me too. :)

DA single shots from the holster at ten yards.....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d700b3127ccec27f07dcd87500000016100CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk

These work well too....
http://www.letargets.com/images/bt-5h-2.jpg

http://www.letargets.com/images/bt-10h2.jpg

bluetopper
June 12, 2008, 09:35 PM
Where do I try and place my shot?

Inside the 10 ring at 25 yards with one free hand.

I was taught that if a pistol was meant to be shot with two hands it would have two handles on it.

10-96
June 12, 2008, 09:53 PM
Don't sell yourself short by convincing yourself that you must shoot 1, 2, 3, or however many shots and then stop to assess. If it is you endeavor to deliver violence to a means of stopping violence directed to you- then it should be your primary intent to 'shoot to stop the threat, and shoot until the threat stops'. If it means getting one shot off- so be it. But if it requires more than what you've practiced to the point of shooting your standard amount, but the situation calls for more? Remember, some folks really do fight like they train.

As far as 'where'- I'm working on the practice of putting hits to the pelvic area. But not forgetting that any hit is better than none.

Swiper
June 13, 2008, 12:40 AM
Pretty much echoed what has already been said, was taught to "aim high, or aim low" going for head/center chest or the pelvic region. Nothing really vital in the "center mass" area, but I think people just generally assume that means center chest...I dunno.

Just started doing transition and reload drills as well, really fun stuff to get into.

-Swiper.

Breadslinger
June 18, 2008, 02:27 PM
2 to 3 quick shots at the largest surface area available. That will hopefully slow down the BG enough to concentrate the rest of my fire on vital areas.

Glck3419
June 19, 2008, 04:01 PM
You ALWAYS go for the center of the largest visible body part. A normal person standing, it would be center mass. If they are hiding behind a wall and all you can see is the leg, you mind should rationalize the leg has two parts, upper and lower, and see that the upper part of the leg is bigger and that should be your target.



Judged by 12 then carried by 6

TexasSeaRay
June 19, 2008, 05:14 PM
When I go to the range, I practice accuracy, function, reliability and safety. I do not focus on how I would kill another human being!! I'll leave that to the internet Machismo's here that don't have a clue what they would do in a real life threatening situation!!

When you paint with such a broad, sloppy brush, do not be surprised when some of that paint splatters back on you.

My shooting these days consists primarily of testing new loads, new cast boolits, etc. I enjoy it.

I also make sure that my self-defense shooting skills stay sharp and focused.

Unfortunately, some of us have had real life threatening situations. The fact that we're still here to discuss such issues is a testament to preparedness and reality for our own individual situations.

Jeff

Double Naught Spy
June 19, 2008, 08:14 PM
I also make sure that my self-defense shooting skills stay sharp and focused.

And so this is how I try to do mine...

I shoot a variety of locations, but mostly COM, COC, and Head shots. I do some static shooting, but prefer to have either the targets or me in motion. Based on what I have learned, somebody is going to be in motion in most gunfights/assaults, hence motion being used in practice.

Shooting on the move, moving laterally by the target...
http://www.vholdr.com/node/2862

Shooting on the move, retreating...
http://www.vholdr.com/video/com-retreat-drill

Single moving head-sized target...
http://www.vholdr.com/video/first-range-test

Double moving head-sized targets...
http://www.vholdr.com/video/shooting-dual-shaffer-shifter-targets

And no, my groups aren't perfect and my shots aren't placed as well as I would like, so I have to keep practicing...

exprt9
June 20, 2008, 02:21 AM
I shoot bullseye targets 95 percent of the time. However, I also do hostage taker scenarios but I still use two bullseyes. One overlapping the other about almost halfway. This is done at the max distance of 7 yards. If I can hit the bullseyes then I am pretty confident that I can place my shots where I want them. :)

exprt9

LanceOregon
June 20, 2008, 02:39 AM
If they are not armed with a firearm, then aim for their hip, and you will be able to stop your attacker from advancing on you.

For they will not be able to reach you without a functioning hip.

But if they do have a gun, then aim for the center of their heart/lung area.

.

Double Naught Spy
June 20, 2008, 06:39 AM
Lance, interesting. What makes you think you are going to be able to make their hip not function?

Just what part of the "hip" are you going to shoot and where are you going to aim to make it happen? The largest part of the hip, the ilium, mostly supports soft tissue and can be penetrated without losing integrity and can even break without causing a loss of locomotor integrity.

If the person is a lethal threat to you, then why not put them down in the same manner as if they were armed with a gun?

dadofsix
June 21, 2008, 12:04 PM
Injuries to the hip are breathtakingly painful. A bullet to the hip will shatter bone and immobilize. While not an exact analogy, experienced hunters faced with a charging bear will try to "dismantle" the mobility of the bear before trying to kill it.

When I am carrying a large caliber weapon, it makes sense to shoot to COM. On those occasions, however, when I am forced to carry a mouse-gun, COM shots while eventually lethal, may not have the stopping power as shots to the pelvic girdle. FWIW, I agree completely that if the BG is holding a gun, shots to COM and the CNS are the only ones that make sense.

Perhaps someone with a medical background could offer their insights.

<><Peace

AK103K
June 21, 2008, 12:28 PM
If I'm forced to use my Seecamp, I'm not going to be shooting at someones "girdle".

I'll be doing my best to get them to say..."Ahhh". :D

Huskerz85
June 21, 2008, 12:50 PM
Depends. I'm most accurate with my Model 10/K38.....so I'll usually divide my 6 shots in half (3 to the head, 3 to the chest).

With my PPK-S, I've been leaning towards the chest......not only is that a larger target area, but being that I fire that puppy DA, it's probably a safe bet that I've got a better chance of getting a hit and taking the hypothetical bad guy down. The more I practice and the better I get, I might start popping some in the head area.

Double Naught Spy
June 21, 2008, 03:38 PM
Injuries to the hip are breathtakingly painful. A bullet to the hip will shatter bone and immobilize.

Breathtakingly painful? I thought gut shots were supposed to be breathtakingly painful.

Unless you are using a centerfire rifle or shotgun slugs, don't count on shattering the pelvis. Even then, if you hit the blade of the largest bone, the ilium, you can get a round that simply passes through with no structural failure or even breaks off a chunk of the blade, but this likely won't result in structural collapse. Keep in mind that the iliac blade provides a lot of lower abdominal cavity support for soft tissue. If you want real structural insult, you need to impact at the acetabulum (where the femoral head articulates in the socket with the ilium, ischium, and pubis) or hit the pubic symphysis. Note that the pubic symphysis (very small target) and ischium (the bones you sit on[left and right]) are located very low down on the abdomen.

It is a myth that impacting the pelvis with a handgun shot will break the pelvis and drop the person that is often further glorified by saying the pelvis will collapse or will shatter. People shot in the pelvis may go down, err, drop, but then again I have seen footage of people shot in the thigh (no bone involvement) drop, gut, chest, shoulder, etc., all places that didn't have load bearing collapse.

While not an exact analogy, experienced hunters faced with a charging bear will try to "dismantle" the mobility of the bear before trying to kill it.

More likely, they are doing their best to stop it any way possible and often bears get stopped without being killed and have to be finished off.

Of course, when it comes to a "charging bear," the best target presented is the shoulder as there are two to choose from and offer the dual possibilities of giving you the best chance for penetration of the body and the possibility of breaking the shoulder girdle. The head is a big target between the shoulders, but with a strong, sloped skull, necessary penetration into the brain may not occur and the head actually protects much of the vital organs behind it.

So it isn't so much that they are dismantling the the mobility of the bear as much as making the most optimal shot available on a charging bear.

Don Lu
June 21, 2008, 04:30 PM
COM=center of whatever is presented for a target.
its not a good idea to set out aming for the hip, head,leg or even heart. When you are shaking from adrenaline, heart pounding and your target is in motion, chances are pretty high that you wount hit the targets I listed above. Go for the center of whatever is presented for a target instead of ..Ill shoot him in the ankle so he cant walk...

dadofsix
June 21, 2008, 06:06 PM
I stand duly corrected.:)

Double Naught and Don Lu, thanks for your insights.

<><Peace

Spectre
June 21, 2008, 10:33 PM
People under stress tend to shoot high.

I therefore, practice shooting a little low on my "COM" shots, aiming about where the diaphragm is. I more carefully shot failure to stops aiming for about where the bridge of the nose would be.

If I had the option on a slow shot on profile target, I would always aim for underneath the ear. I've seen deer that refused to believe they were dead persuaded this way.

Th0r
June 25, 2008, 04:22 PM
The heavier stuff, rifles and such...

Only at the range.

Airguns and Airsoft I shoot in my rent's back garden.