PDA

View Full Version : How do you deal with an aggressive political protester??


LanceOregon
May 31, 2008, 08:33 AM
What do you do if you are ever confronted by an aggressive political protester who wants to use you in order to make a political point?

For example: We had a most bizarre protest here in Oregon yesterday, by a group called CPWP: Crazy People for Wildlife Protection. They were protesting the use of pesticides in keeping harmful insect populations down. Perhaps they don't want mosquitoes to die? Or maybe they feel there is an overall harmful effect to the ecology. Anyway, all of these protesters looked like they were hippies who had traveled through time from the late '60's

One protester put on a mock exterminator's suit, and then went around with a sprayer, spraying liquid on plants in the downtown mall, and then also on people passing by, without their consent. This upset some folks, who then called the police.

But what would you do in such a scenario? Would you just trust that the liquid was harmless, and allow a total stranger to spray some liquid on you in order to help them drive home their political issue?

When the police showed up, they asked the young 19 yr old man what was in the sprayer, and he told the officers that it was filled with poison. One word led to another, and officers decided to arrest him for disorderly conduct.

However, the young man resisted, and four police officers ended up struggling with him. And they also tased him twice, in order to subdue him.

Now the police are being condemned for police brutality. It really seems like a no-win situation, no? It seems to me that if any civilians had objected and tried to stop the man from spraying them, that they would have been accused of brutality too.

No really good answers here, I am afraid. I guess the best thing to do is just steer well clear of protests if you can. You never known when one will get crazy or violent.

Here is a link to the news story:

http://www.kval.com/news/local/19421239.html

And here is a link to a video news report about the incident:

http://www.kval.com/news/local/19411459.html?video=YHI&t=a


P.S. -- It turned out that the sprayer just had harmless water in it.

.

EastSideRich
May 31, 2008, 09:09 AM
Dont know if you'd be justified in shooting him, or rather you'd be convicted of manslaughter or murder.

It would be real hard to not beat the hell of him though.
The only reason I might not is fear of loosing my permit to carry.

I think the best way to deal with this type of @$$#0^* is to avoid them.
If you see people like this harassing passers-by, cross the street or do whatever it takes to not cross paths with them.

Their sole purpose or mission is to cause trouble, don't let them drag you into it.

St Paul is hosting the republican national convention this year and they are expecting ALOT of rowdy protesters. Not that I'd be hanging around there anyway, but I'll be avoiding the area like the plague while its going on.

armoredman
May 31, 2008, 09:12 AM
I'd hose him back with pepper spray.

Epyon
May 31, 2008, 09:29 AM
but if you can't for whatever reason, I would definitely report him to the police. Does anyone know if that could count as battery since it was an action done on another individual without consent?


Epyon

threegun
May 31, 2008, 09:45 AM
I would run like the wind before getting hosed. In todays world of poisons and terrorism if I couldn't flee..........well I'm not getting sprayed!

Thats not aggressive political protesting thats assault and battery with a deadly weapon (the fake pioson).

Rich Miranda
May 31, 2008, 10:25 AM
It's not a gun situation, I don't think.

OnTheFly
May 31, 2008, 10:49 AM
I'd hose him back with pepper spray.

I like this answer. Not a gun situation. Obviously avoiding him would be the less aggressive path, but why should we have to avoid certain public areas because of another person's actions? That is NOT right.

I think this could be construed as assault. If you perceive that you are being sprayed with a poison, then you have a reason to call the police or defend yourself by physical means depending on how aggressive he becomes. If I had my kids with me, I would have a hard time not subduing him until the police arrived...but then I'm not a mall ninja. :D

Fly

TexasSeaRay
May 31, 2008, 11:26 AM
Me? I'd stick that sprayer nozzle up his ass and then start pumping.

You wanna make your point, go for it--but leave me the hell out of it. The minute you invade my space or make physical contact, all bets, all understanding, and all restraint is done with.

Protesting is a part of living in a free society. Wacko protesting, distasteful as it might be, is still protected up to a point. But protesting that involves physical contact with unwilling participants is NOT covered nor protected by any law in any state.

Jeff

threegun
May 31, 2008, 11:52 AM
Who's to say that the sprayer doesn't contain a poison? Death or great bodily injury comes in many forms. Yes it would be nice to have an alternative to the CW however if you don't have the alternative (pepper or escape) getting sprayed is simply not an option and does constitute a potentially deadly threat.

If you don't want to be shot by a CWP holder don't spray them with something that looks like poison. Pretty simple. I'll rot in prison before I allow my family to be sprayed with an unknown agent. Anything would be better than living with that wrong decision if the poison turned out to be real.

Crosshair
May 31, 2008, 01:16 PM
If he is spraying me with who knows what, then I'm taking the rolls of nickels out of my pocket and delivering a beat down. Syringes are considered deadly weapons when used as such, don't see why a sprayer with an unknown agent in it would not be considered the same.

Deaf Smith
May 31, 2008, 02:34 PM
Lance,

Wny don't you go in front of the police station where this happend and protest FOR THE POLICE. Yes, support what they did. Call the local news station and tell them what you and others are doing.

How does that sound.

threegun
May 31, 2008, 03:12 PM
Deaf, Great suggestion:rolleyes: It seems the squeaky wheels get the grease. To often we sit aside and allow this non sense to happen unchallenged. I will keep this in my little bag of tricks for future events.

One must be very careful however if this counter protest causes unrest which leads to CWP holder gunfire might be harder to defense even if justified.

Erik
May 31, 2008, 03:38 PM
"No really good answers here, I am afraid."

Actually, the answers the responding officers came up with seem like good ones:

Respond. Investigate. Determine a crime was committed. Effect arrest using established guidelines and reasonable force.

HankB
May 31, 2008, 03:55 PM
A 19-year old with a pump up sprayer he claims is filled with poison is NOT the same thing as a mischevious 10 year old with a water pistol. If someone he'd threatened and attempted to spray HAD shot him, the story strongly suggests there would have been sufficient evidence that the intended spray-ee was in reasonable fear of grave or grevious bodily harm - probably enough to justify shooting the spray-er.

This is a lot like someone approaching you with a realistic-looking gun . . . it doesn't have to be real, you only have to be reasonably sure it is real to justify action.

The legal aftermath would certainly be VERY jurisdiction-dependent.

I like the pepper-spray response.

sw_florida
May 31, 2008, 04:01 PM
Of course it wasn't a gun situation. The guy wanted publicity for his opinion. Being sprayed isn't fun. A shove off should be enough. If he comes at you, use mace.

Sarge
May 31, 2008, 04:07 PM
The world is full of obnoxious idiots. If you shoot them all you won't have any ammo left for the fun stuff.

Musketeer
May 31, 2008, 04:10 PM
You point your sprayer at me and I'll point mine at you. I try to avoid such problems but if he were determined he would get a blast of OC at the minimum and worse if my family were threatenned.

CPTMurdoc30
May 31, 2008, 04:18 PM
I tend to get a little on the grumpy side if you invade my space. OC spray sounds good as does a good old fashion azz whoopin. I would not be too mad about you spraying me but if one drop comes near my wife or kids and buddy you are going to find out what it feels like to be stomped into the ground.

workinwifdakids
May 31, 2008, 04:51 PM
A whole lotta wall-to-wall counseling sounds like a fine idea.

It's fairly hard to justify shooting the guy to a jury. They're likely illiterates anyway.

It'd be pretty easy, I'd think, to justify beating his ass like a drum, when you say you were scared for your life so you tackled him after he said he sprayed you with poison.

threegun
May 31, 2008, 04:54 PM
How about a syringe filled with saline that its 19 year old wielder says is aids? Just a stupid kid right?

There is a point were it transforms from a political protest to a life and death split second decision. That is when this idiot stops spraying plants and starts spraying people. If I couldn't escape the spray by running I see no other alternative then to force a stop.

You psychics who know he's just a stupid kid with water disguised as poison just by looking should go play the lotto LOL.

LanceOregon
May 31, 2008, 08:09 PM
Wny don't you go in front of the police station where this happend and protest FOR THE POLICE. Yes, support what they did. Call the local news station and tell them what you and others are doing.

How does that sound.

I know that there are going to be letters written condemning the police for this use of the taser. Political activists here have blocked the police from getting tasers in recent years, much like they have done in San Francisco. In fact, only a few officers here have them, as they were just deployed 4 months ago, and only on an experimental basis.

So I am thinking of waiting for these attacks to come, and then I could write something to counteract any criticism.

Here is a photo of the protester that was tased. He is on the left, next to another environmental activist:


http://www.eugeneweekly.com/2008/graphics/052208shorts1.jpg


This is only the second person to be tasered by the department in these past months. The first was a man who got in a dispute with some teenagers, and then chased them through the downtown area screaming that he had a gun and was going to shoot them. The boys took off, with him in hot pursuit. People heard his threats of murder, and called police. So the call the police got was that a man was chasing after some teenagers and threatening them with a handgun.

An officer managed to intercept the man and confront him. He did not see any firearm present, so when the man would not comply with his orders, he deployed his taser and took him down.

There were no complains about that incident. In fact, many said that the officer had courageously risked his life, due to the fact that it had been earlier reported ( although incorrectly ) that the man had a gun.

As things turned out, that man was released on bail two days later.

.

LanceOregon
May 31, 2008, 08:25 PM
Respond. Investigate. Determine a crime was committed. Effect arrest using established guidelines and reasonable force.

Well, the problem here Erik is that there are folks here who are dead set against the police ever using Tasers against any political protesters. No matter how badly they misbehave. They believe that their protest is protected under the 1st Amendment.

The department tried to implement tasers 3 years earlier, but there were so many howls of protest, that they had to back off.

The city of San Franscisco to this day still does not have tasers, due to very similar political protests against the taser.

.

tony pasley
May 31, 2008, 08:57 PM
I would prees charges of assult with intent, the police should have charged with terrorist activities, assulting a LEO, then the mistermeaners.
A man was convicted of attemted murder of a LEO after he spit on an officer.

Deaf Smith
May 31, 2008, 09:30 PM
Here in Texas we have a law against 'Hoax' bombs. A hoax bomb is any thing made or designend or intended to cause alarm or panic. Surely they have a law like that over there. Strange they didn't charge him with 'teroristic threats' or using a hoax bomb.

LanceOregon
May 31, 2008, 09:33 PM
A man was convicted of attemted murder of a LEO after he spit on an officer.

Yes, but this guy does not have AIDS. He is mainly just guilty of being a hippie. And all he wants is for us to stop using pesticides.

He is actually a university student too. One would have thought that he would have been far more intelligent than to tell the responding officers that he was spreading poison.

I guess he thought it was OK to joke about such stuff.

.

Crosshair
May 31, 2008, 09:59 PM
How about a syringe filled with saline that its 19 year old wielder says is aids? Just a stupid kid right?
Nope, that is the same as robbing a store with a painted airsoft gun nearly everywhere. Even though it was fake, you presented it as if it was a real weapon.

Mike in VA
May 31, 2008, 10:09 PM
I'd try to avoid getting involved, but if some fool decided to hose me, I'da decked him and stood on his chest applying whatever pacification was necessary until the cops arrived (I liked the OC approach-), at which point I'd press charges for assault+, followed up with a civil suit.

I'm all for free speech & protest, but if you think you're going to use me to make you point, you'd better think again.

Boris Bush
May 31, 2008, 10:15 PM
These guys are easy to tear apart. Outside of a rodeo one time a protestor was wearing a leather coat........... :confused: I very politely informed him his leather coat was one time a cow and is a bald fur coat. PETA protestor, was even better, she had on some high dollar German sandels made with leather straps. She tried to rip my eyeballs out.

I have worked or run into these types on ocasion and they always seem to have a leather belt, wallet, shoes, couch, leather seats in their car, rawhide strap with stones around their neck.

With that said I worked with a guy that was 100% animal free. So I just told him carrots have feelings too...........

BillCA
May 31, 2008, 10:51 PM
So, minding my own business a man in protective clothing sprays me with a liquid he claims is "poison". What am I to do?

At this stage of the game, adding up the protective gear, his statment of "poison" and his unwarranted dispensing of the material on me, I'm going to assume that he has actually sprayed some kind of poison on me. This is gives me reasonable cause to believe a felony just occurred in my presence (and against my person). Life threatening? Maybe, but it doesn't seem so at the moment.

Response: Hauling his whacko a** to the ground and/or pepper spraying him. Then, use sufficient force to affect his arrest (and telling him he's under arrest).

When PD responds, inform them of the possibility that an unknown poison is in the container AND the surrounding area. Request an ambulance and HazMat team. When it is discovered to be "only water", the protester gets billed by the city for the Hazmat & ambulance response -- usually on the order of $8,000-$12,000.

The downside is that during the struggle, if he starts spraying the solution into my face/mouth/nose and refuses to quit he's going to be "poisoned" with copper and lead.

rantingredneck
May 31, 2008, 11:24 PM
I agree /\

threegun
June 1, 2008, 02:47 PM
The crazy protester is coming toward you dressed in a protective suit spraying everyone he can with a liquid he claims to be poison. You can't retreat (cornered) and don't have pepper to deploy. Do you use your firearm or not?

txbirddog
June 1, 2008, 03:23 PM
The crazy protester is coming toward you dressed in a protective suit spraying everyone he can with a liquid he claims to be poison. You can't retreat (cornered) and don't have pepper to deploy. Do you use your firearm or not?

Sounds like my life, or those of my loved ones, is in danger of harm....what do you think?? :rolleyes:

threegun
June 1, 2008, 04:25 PM
Txbirddog, I agree with you. My question was posed mainly to those who feel that this doesn't warrant the use of deadly force.

Many of these same folks wouldn't allow themselves to be jabbed with a syringe claimed to be filled with Aids.

LanceOregon
June 1, 2008, 06:02 PM
Well, since people are already condemning the local police force for having used a taser on the fellow to subdue him, I think that if one of the civilians he sprayed had shot him, that these same folks would be demanding that person's hide.

This did take place at a high traffic downtown mall, where many people work and shop.

I think that this is an important issue to consider, for anyone carrying a handgun. Where do you draw the line at pulling your firearm or not?

It also brings up the issue of whether one should also carry some type of non-lethal weapon like pepper spray or a taser, to compliment your handgun.

I personally also carry one of the second generation Taser civilian models, the Taser C2. They are far smaller and lighter than the first generation models, and thus not at all hard to conceal.

Here is another press report on the incident. This one, however, does not mention anything about spraying people passing by, like the initial TV news report did. It claims that the police arrested the protester for blocking traffic, as well as disorderly conduct. But it does also say that the protester threatened to spray poison into the face of officers, when they spoke to him. That certainly would seem to me to go well outside the protections of the 1st Amendment, which the protesters are all claiming.

Two other protesters did attack the arresting officers, as they tried to arrest the first man. So they were also subdued and arrested as well.

It turns out the arresting officers were part of the city's downtown bicycle patrol. These officer all look very lean, fit, and muscular, as they spend all of their time patrolling the downtown area on bicycle. I certainly would not want to wrestle with any of them.

Here is this other news report:

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.cms.support.viewStory.cls?cid=105431&sid=4&fid=2

rampage841512
June 1, 2008, 06:20 PM
I'd hose him back with pepper spray.


Ditto.

threegun
June 1, 2008, 06:48 PM
Rampage, What if you didn't have pepper or an escape route?

Wildalaska
June 1, 2008, 07:39 PM
What do you do if you are ever confronted by an aggressive political protester who wants to use you in order to make a political point?


As soon as they get close, puke on em!:D

WilditsastatementAlaska TM

Sigma 40 Blaster
June 1, 2008, 07:56 PM
I had a similar thought, WA, but it would have been fluid from a different body part.

Short of someone running around in a Bio suit claiming to be spraying Nicin or something extreme I can't see shooting a political protester, as much as they might need it. :)

It kind of scares me that a lot of people are looking for reasons they WOULD shoot someone versus ways they could avoid shooting someone. Makes us look a little blood thirsty doesn't it?

ActivShootr
June 1, 2008, 08:01 PM
As soon as they get close, puke on em!

I like it. Tell 'em you must have eaten some bad vegetable soup. Then go get a cheeseburger.

:barf::eek::D

zxcvbob
June 1, 2008, 08:23 PM
What if you didn't have pepper or an escape route?

You release the *tiger*

grey sky
June 1, 2008, 11:54 PM
I have always wondered about the protestors throwing paint on furs or whatever and if they are charged with assault civil or criminal charges ect. It does not seem corect that an adult could afford to repeat this behavior considering legal cost of defense even if backed by some group?
It amazes me more thrashings don't result from this behavior?:confused:

TexasSeaRay
June 2, 2008, 12:03 AM
It kind of scares me that a lot of people are looking for reasons they WOULD shoot someone versus ways they could avoid shooting someone. Makes us look a little blood thirsty doesn't it?

Sigma,

When I got (voluntarily) recalled for the first Gulf War, several of my missions were inside Bagdhad and then west of Bagdhad. Every time Hussein would launch one of his damned Scud missiles, the chemical fallout some of us were exposed to did irreparable damage.

Some of the Israeli commandos I worked with were scared to death of Hussein's threat to use bio weapons--and trust me, I've worked with a lot of Israelis and NEVER seen them scared like that before.

I've done some hairy things and been in some even hairier situations, but NOTHING scares me more than bad, unknown chemicals being used on me or against me.

Talk about triggering an instead flashback/delayed stress syndrome reaction.

If the hairy hippie punk had told me it was just water and then doused me or my wife, I would've hurt him right then, right there. Your fist ends where my nose begins.

But if--as the reports are saying--he was dressed up in anything resembling a MOPP suit and claiming he had poison and pointed his sprayer at me, I would've shot and killed him instantly and without a second thought and never lost a minute's sleep over it.

There are some things and some people you just don't mess around with. Idiots with, or claiming to have, dangerous chemicals and threatening you with them fall into both categories.

Jeff

Wildalaska
June 2, 2008, 12:45 AM
There are some things and some people you just don't mess around with. Idiots with, or claiming to have, dangerous chemicals and threatening you with them fall into both categories.

Like Saddam Hussien ;)

WildgladsomeonehereseesthelightAlaska TM

grey sky
June 2, 2008, 03:53 AM
Is this not akin to shouting FIRE in a theater?
I have no sympathy for this citizen the police reaction to "I am spraying poison" a quick take down is appropriate.
When an accidental breaking of a mercury thermometer in a school gets a haz mat team response, this should have goten no less untill the unknown substance was identified. All the protestors should have been arrested on the spot as co-conspiritors to creating panick.

BillCA
June 2, 2008, 04:46 AM
TexasSeaRay,

Well said.

My only quibble is that if I can see people reacting to being sprayed and the only distress they show is one of getting wet, I may not resort to lethal force right away.

Sigma40 - I don't think it makes us look blood-thirsty at all.

If, in a public place, you have one person dressed in a bio suit (protective gear) who is spraying people with an unknown substance, preparing to draw on such a person is not unwarranted. If one has time to observe the reaction to being sprayed and sees no immediate harm the threat-reaction drops a bit. But if the person turns towards me as his newest target, he'll get to inspect the muzzle. If he decides not to abort his actions he will reap the result of his folly.

LanceOregon
Well, since people are already condemning the local police force for having used a taser on the fellow to subdue him, I think that if one of the civilians he sprayed had shot him, that these same folks would be demanding that person's hide.
Perhaps, but not with much legal basis. This is equivilant to the protester holding a rubber knife painted to look real and uttering "I'm going to kill you". It's a credible threat that must be dealt with immediately based on limited information.

grey sky
June 2, 2008, 05:09 AM
I never did care for hippies, throwbacks and hangers on are even worse. Read the signature line:)

threegun
June 2, 2008, 07:55 AM
It kind of scares me that a lot of people are looking for reasons they WOULD shoot someone versus ways they could avoid shooting someone. Makes us look a little blood thirsty doesn't it?

Considering that shooting the BG is most folks last resort and only to avoid getting sprayed with a claimed poison, I think you are way off base here.

B.A.
June 3, 2008, 01:23 AM
Not knowing the full details and not having been there myself, a couple of things spring to mind:

1. Assuming this was a large demonstration involving lots of people, banners, placards, bull horns, chanting and provocative costumes, wouldn't it be pretty obvious to a passer-by that the guy was pulling a prank?

2. Assuming (1.) was the case, wouldn't it be rather easy to stay away from the spectacle (and this clown)?

3. In the event that the guy did get close enough to you, would pepper/OC spray have helped? The guy was wearing some kind of protective gear; would that have included face/gas mask?

Pulling silly stunts like that certainly warrants a good hiding, but hardly deadly force, in my book. The guy is immature, ignorant and stupid and has a twisted idea of political expression, but doesnt necessarily need shooting.
Good on the cops and I dont see any police brutality in the way they handled it. Just imagine how he would have been treated if he pulled a stunt like that in an airport. Or on an airplane!

chadwimc
June 3, 2008, 01:55 AM
I'm getting too old, fat, and slow to wrestle with protesters. Can I just kick him in the balls???

LanceOregon
June 3, 2008, 02:08 AM
Looks like the complaint letters have started.

This letter complains about the electrocution of University Students:


http://media.www.dailyemerald.com/media/storage/paper859/news/2008/06/02/Opinion/Protesters.Right.To.Expression.Violated.By.Eugene.Police.Friday-3377543.shtml?reffeature=recentlycommentedstoriestab


You can see in this letter the sort of 1st Amendment argument that is being made to say that this sort of activity was legal.


P.S. - How could any parents manage to name their child "Planet" ???

.

NotAMonte86
June 4, 2008, 11:41 AM
That's what happens when your mama does acid while pregnant with you.

I would expect nothing less from someone named Planet... or Leaf, Star, Whisper, or any other blatant tree-hugging hippie name. Too bad they haven't heard of the name Shower.

SilentHitz
June 4, 2008, 12:00 PM
I'm getting too old, fat, and slow to wrestle with protesters. Can I just kick him in the balls??? Same here, and yes you can...several times. :cool:

vox rationis
June 4, 2008, 12:35 PM
Deleted Double Post

vox rationis
June 4, 2008, 12:38 PM
I'm getting too old, fat, and slow to wrestle with protesters. Can I just kick him in the balls???

Haha!

Or step on his toe, he's probably wearing Birkenstocks.

I love the pepper spray idea though!....I wonder if they make Organic Pepper Spray...


Like Johnny Lydon said:

"Never trust a hippie" :D

Mr. James
June 4, 2008, 03:15 PM
I'm with BillCA, leaning towards TexasSeaRay. The sumbitch is not walking away unscathed, that much is guaranteed. If I don't know what's in that tank, he's being stopped.

Lance, thanks for the updates - now write a letter supporting your local coppers!

Cheers,

Bob James

starshooter231
June 4, 2008, 05:26 PM
armoredman
I'd hose him back with pepper spray.


I agree. This is most likely what I would do.

.300H&H
June 4, 2008, 06:25 PM
According to the article, the protester was already handcuffed and on the ground and clearly subdued by 4 police officers BEFORE he was TAZED 2x's.


According to the article, the protester was clearly wearing a 'mock' exterminators outfit...and only claimed he was spraying 'poison' AFTER the confrontation with police... It wasn't poison and it wasn't presumed to be poison...and in the role of demonstrating...it was 'MOCK POISON.'
Poison wasn't the 'issue' inasmuch the 'confrontation' became the escalating issue...

If the protester was a right winger screaming in front of some clinic...
and resisting arrest, I would say the police would NOT be right to TAZE the
protester 2x's after beeing subdued. In the case of this left winger, I would also say the police are not right in TAZING the protestor 2x's after being subdued.

This is not a situation where you want to use a firearm. TAZERS are frequently misused. I think part of the problem is that because TAZERS are deemed nonlethal, some police tend to use them a bit too recklessly and hotheadedly without the same restraint or respect they might otherwise
show when using a fiream.

Not all police officers are good people, and not all protesters are good people. It could be a case of 4 below average police officers abusing a below average protester. Chose sides if you like, but no matter what side you chose, the use of a TAZER after someone is already subdued - is wrong no matter what the protester might have said or even alleged to have done.
Start recklessly tazing people at protests, and you will soon have a riots instead of protests.

:rolleyes:

Avenger11
June 4, 2008, 07:11 PM
How about a double 12 gauge loaded with rock salt???

BillCA
June 4, 2008, 07:38 PM
300H&H -

I'd generally agree that someone on the ground in handcuffs does not need or deserve to be subjected to a Taser hit. There are exceptions, of course.

I've seen & handled guys in handcuffs who just won't quit. They try to kick, spit, bite, claw and anything else they can. Before stun devices were available, the SOP was just pin him to the ground with a knee in the back and let him exhaust himself. If he was too unruly for that option, you'd resort to "benediction by MaceĀ®" and let that cool him off. :D If the suspect is kicking and flailing about hard enough, even in handcuffs, where officer's legs can be injured then tasing him might be appropriate.

.300H&H
June 4, 2008, 10:51 PM
Yeah...there's a judgement call... and I too have seen firsthand some difficult situations in trying to subdue someone...and have written a few incident reports. I remember a situation years ago when I was helping escort someone to another wing of the building<an institutional building:D>when the person in custody<who was high as a kite and crazy>suddenly smacked the security guard in the back of the head. The security guard whirled around and reflexively smaked the person back in the face with his fist. I couldn't blame him ie. it was instinctual and reflexive, but it went waaaay against policy and there were many many witnesses. Had to be written up and the security guard lost his job. I've had an 'ugly perp' walk up to me and spit at me<he missed becaused I ducked well in the nick of time>but it's up to me to be the one who keeps cool.Like Barney Fife once said after a lesson from Andy: 'This badge just doesn't represent me; it represent the people...'


Personally, I don't like TAZERS, but it's not the tazer's fault; they're just so easy to misuse. If used properly, the tazer is a good thing to have...but there are some folks who seem to want an excuse to use one...and when 'group think' kicks in ,it seems the tazer gets used a bit too much... It's
a judgement call, but when the alleged perp.is already down and handcuffed,
that's not the time to start tazing him. It's almost as if the tazer becomes a kind of psychological validation for having taken the person down. Ya see we had to even taze him!:rolleyes: Unfortunately, witnesses and cameras might tell another story.

What disturbs me though is that some folks seem to think a firearm was needed to handle the situation. :barf:

GoSlash27
June 5, 2008, 05:47 AM
I wonder why it is that armed people are expected to respond to provocations like these more rashly than unarmed people. :confused:

LanceOregon
June 5, 2008, 07:33 AM
According to the article, the protester was already handcuffed and on the ground and clearly subdued by 4 police officers BEFORE he was TAZED 2x's.

I'm afraid that your statement here is totally false, unless you want to also claim that the police are lying about what happened.

If you look back at the first news report that I linked to, police say that they only had ONE hand of the man handcuffed, and the protester was wildly swinging his other arm, when they tased him.

Do you also believe that University of Florida student Andrew Meyer did not deserve to be tased by the University police? He was in the same exact situation, with many officers on top him, who were struggling to get him handcuffed.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/308713/1_21_091707_StudentArrested.jpg


A total of 6 officers were unable to subdue Meyer, before they tased him:


http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/uploads/arrest1.jpg


And when that case was reviewed by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, it was determined to not have been any abuse of power by the officers to have tased him. Here is a link to the report:

http://www.president.ufl.edu/incident/FDLE-Executive-Summary.pdf

Meyer agreed to write letters of apology regarding his actions to everyone concerned, in exchange for all criminal charges against him being dropped. He is now back as a student at the University. See this article for details:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/31/State/Tasered_student_is_so.shtml


The University of Florida Police actually showed restraint in the Meyer case. For they had a taser on him at the very start of the arrest, as you can see here in this photo:


http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2007/09/19/1190191768_7150.jpg


They only tased him after he REPEATEDLY refused to obey their instructions and struggled with numerous officers while fighting them all the way to the back end of the auditorium.


.

Musketeer
June 5, 2008, 07:42 AM
Every time I go to the Pac NW I turn on the news talk radio and hear a news report about some eco terrorist group torching houses, destroying construction equipment or otherwise carrying out attacks. It is almost always some group of young white kids with more money in their pockets than is good for them, no real jobs and no need to focus on school to get one. So if I see one of these overprivileged brats walking around in a exterminator get up and spraying people down with who knows what I am under no expectation to assume it is harmless. At the minimum it may be assumed to be destructive to clothing and a skin irritant. That alone warrants resistance, if not lethal then a full blast of OC in the face if needed.

Musketeer
June 5, 2008, 07:43 AM
Meyer agreed to write letters of apology regarding his actions to everyone concerned, in exchange for all criminal charges against him being dropped. He is now back as a student at the University. See this article for details:

Hopefully the deal falls through if he commits another such act within 10 years. If he does the initial charges should be reinstated with a guilty plea. That SHOULD have been part of his agreement.

LanceOregon
June 5, 2008, 08:05 AM
I wonder why it is that armed people are expected to respond to provocations like these more rashly than unarmed people

Well, that was my reason for posting this incident. We need to know both when to make use of our weapon, and also when not to do so.

It is a huge responsibility to carry a gun.

.

sqShane
June 5, 2008, 02:16 PM
Looks like the complaint letters have started.

This letter complains about the electrocution of University Students:


http://media.www.dailyemerald.com/me...ntedstoriestab


You can see in this letter the sort of 1st Amendment argument that is being made to say that this sort of activity was legal.


P.S. - How could any parents manage to name their child "Planet" ???

.

I'm so glad I live in Texas and not Oregon. It's interesting to read through the thread and see how Texans respond versus those from OR & CA-type states.

Shane

obxned
June 5, 2008, 04:46 PM
Spraying me or any of my family with an unknown substance is NOT 'political protest'. It is assault. Telling me it is poison would make it a deadly assault and will be met with deadly force.

Chui
June 5, 2008, 06:20 PM
"I'd hose him back with pepper spray."

Hell, I like you. You can ride shotgun with me anyday, dude. :thumbsup:

rickdavis81
June 5, 2008, 08:39 PM
I didn't see where it said that everybody knew it was some retarded hippie just dressed up trying to make a point. If he had a sign that said "I'm a dumb hippie trying to make a point" I probaly still wouldn't have believed him and thought it was still a terrorist. Because he is a terrorist for what he did. He dressed the part of a man spraying poison and acted like a man spraying poison then he is a man spraying poison. I think down at gun point till the police arrived, or shooting if he sprayed me after that, or certaintly my kid or wife. I think he should be tried as a terrorist and imprisoned. There are smarter and better ways to get your point across.

LanceOregon
June 5, 2008, 11:03 PM
There were a lot of protest signs at the event. Unfortunately, I cannot find any press photos showing it. But I did see news video, and it looked clear to me that a protest was going on.

The problem here is that the police and the demonstrators have such a drastically different view of the incident. Protesters are now claiming that the fellow was tasered three times. And they are claiming that the police violently slammed his head into the pavement repeatedly, and were beating him.

They also claim that neither Van Ornum, or the other two arrested protesters, ever resisted the police in any way, or physically attacked them. In fact, one of the other two men arrested for interfering with the arrest and assaulting officers claims he never got closer than 10 ft to them. And that when he was arrested, he was completely peaceful.

So who do you believe? Either this is a police conspiracy, or the protesters are crying wolf. There was no news media initially at the event, when everything went down. Reporters only arrived late to the scene, after things got violent.

The city does have a civilian police auditor, who does do independent investigations of alleged police misconduct. Needless to say, these protesters have all filed complaints with her, and there thus will be a through investigation done.

If you want to see how the protest supporters are reacting, here is a news story all about it today in the far left local weekly paper:

http://www.eugeneweekly.com/2008/06/05/news1.html

So far no letters have been published in either this minor publication, or in our mainstream local newspaper about the incident. But I am sure that these will be coming soon.

The previous letter that I referred to was just published in the local University's newspaper.

Meanwhile, another demonstration is taking place this Saturday, at the same downtown location, to protest how the police handled the earlier demonstration. That protest could get real ugly fast.

Perhaps I'll attend and take some video of the event. Hopefully a riot will not break out between protesters and the police, as it did before when the city had to cut down some trees to make way for a combo shopping and housing development with underground parking.

Protesters were so enraged at the sight of the trees being "murdered" before their eyes, that they started smashing the windows of nearby businesses, and threw rocks at the police. The police had to then respond with massive amounts of tear gas, gassing an entire two block area.

Funny thing is that they planted a bunch of new trees to replace the old ones, and the area looks more lovely than ever, with apartments for people to live in that are above shop space for local businesses, with lots of underground parking for the area.

.

vox rationis
June 7, 2008, 11:59 AM
Hey that's the "DON'T TAZE ME BRO" guy...even he admitted he was being a dufus and deserved to be tazed after the fact :)

Ruthless4christ
June 8, 2008, 01:17 PM
down here in guatemala there was a recent situation where a bunch of green people (not sure what thier title was) came to a area of guatemala where there is alot of logging being done. whithout so much as a transalator they came down into the jungle with a helacopter and came at the local people to try and convince them of the errors of thier ways.

they had on man dressed as a giant rubber tree, and another man with a big rubber axe chopping him down, screeming out memorized one liners in spanish, and generally ******* the poeple off.

well after a little bit they had had anough of that and got a few cans of gasoline and planned on torching them before local authorities were able to get them out.(by the way public live burnings of troublemakers are pretty commenplace around here.

Chui
June 8, 2008, 01:40 PM
"I would say the police would NOT be right to TAZE the protester 2x's after beeing subdued. In the case of this left winger, I would also say the police are not right in TAZING the protestor 2x's after being subdued."

Agreed.

LanceOregon
June 9, 2008, 04:28 AM
Quote:
"I would say the police would NOT be right to TAZE the protester 2x's after beeing subdued. In the case of this left winger, I would also say the police are not right in TAZING the protestor 2x's after being subdued."
Agreed.

Well, but the police don't consider someone to be subdued until they are handcuffed. That is the point when officers can begin to feel safe and be more relaxed. And a person is not considered to be handcuffed until BOTH hands are cuffed.

And there has been nothing stated to suggest that either this suspect, or the Florida University student, were tased after they were successfully handcuffed.

If one is resisting being handcuffed, then you are actively resisting arrest, and thus committing a crime.

The smart thing for people to do is to cooperate with officers when they arrest you.

.