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clam
May 29, 2008, 09:16 PM
I was riding passenger in MY car in Atlanta, unknown to me during the "Phreaknick" festival.

There was much gang violance going on, and we took a wrong turn right into the middle of the affair.

We had the windows rolled down and when we turned the corner and was confronted with the "mob" of people, I reached into the glovebox and pulled my .40 pistol.

A guy jumped into my passenger side and wanted "our money now", I had my pistol aimed in his chest, point blank range, and he looked at it and said, "he didn't care, go ahead and fire".

The question is, with a man inside your car (leaning inside) and threatening you for your money, life, when is the appropriate time to defend yourself?

As an aside, we were able to pull away, and he fell out of the car. I didn't have to shoot.

What is the appropriate time to pull the trigger?

GPossenti
May 29, 2008, 09:26 PM
Having absolutely no experience, I probably would have smashed his nose with the butt of my gun to get him out of the car. Then called the police.

cxg231
May 29, 2008, 09:35 PM
When did this happen? :eek:

KCabbage
May 29, 2008, 09:36 PM
Greetings.
Good thing you didnt blast! I'm pretty sure thats murder, or at least manslaughter. Technically, I dont think you can shoot until he is actively trying to harm you. With you being in a car, you would probably be prosecuted because you didn't try to escape.
Sounds like you didn't call the police. Why not? He's most likely going to do this to someone else.
I think you did a good job!
Take care

Rich Miranda
May 29, 2008, 09:44 PM
The saddest thing about your story is that the guy really didn't care if you killed him or not. There are really people like that. Life must really hold no hope for them (at least in their minds).

When you have reason to believe that you life is in imminent danger, then you're ready to draw. When you're reasonably certain your life is indeed in imminent danger, then you're ready to shoot.

clam
May 29, 2008, 09:52 PM
The saddest thing about your story is that the guy really didn't care if you killed him or not. There are really people like that. Life must really hold no hope for them (at least in their minds).

When you have reason to believe that you life is in imminent danger, then you're ready to draw. When you're reasonably certain your life is indeed in imminent danger, then you're ready to shoot.


I agree...

imminent danger was present, the shot was not.

That weekend, the 'locals' defacated on the govenors lawn and set fire to the govoners house. I assumed the 'local law enforcement' knew.

The question I still have in my mind is "how long do we go before shooting"?

scoutleader
May 29, 2008, 09:56 PM
Wrong time and wrong place. Atlanta is a bad place to be at that time. In TN if you have a CCP and you are in a car our house and feel you life is in danger, then you have the right to shoot.
Danny

lanternlad
May 29, 2008, 10:00 PM
I'd have shot him. My "Do Not Cross" line in that situation is my car. You touch it (with violence) and I have a reasonable expectation that my life is in danger, or you are trying to steal my property - either is reasonable use of deadly force here in Texas. You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. From that scenario, it appears that you don't. If you don't, you really have no reason to carry a gun.

2cooltoolz
May 29, 2008, 10:06 PM
I'm disgusted by your bigotry. You should have invited him home to meet the family and offered him a significant portion of your lifetime earnings so he could spend his time doing drugs and procreating.:mad:

hoytinak
May 29, 2008, 10:20 PM
I'd have shot him. My "Do Not Cross" line in that situation is my car. You touch it (with violence) and I have a reasonable expectation that my life is in danger, or you are trying to steal my property - either is reasonable use of deadly force here in Texas. You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. From that scenario, it appears that you don't. If you don't, you really have no reason to carry a gun.

+1 Gotta love Texas...if he was inside or trying to get inside my truck...I would have shot.

TexasSeaRay
May 29, 2008, 11:28 PM
Good thing you didnt blast! I'm pretty sure thats murder, or at least manslaughter. Technically, I dont think you can shoot until he is actively trying to harm you. With you being in a car, you would probably be prosecuted because you didn't try to escape.

By that "logic," a woman isn't justified in shooting a would-be rapist until he has her clothes off, is on top of her and in the act of committing sexual intercourse.

Of the many reasons we live in Texas (and are natives, not transplants) is that our vehicles--be they cars, boats, RVs, trucks, airplanes, etc--are considered by law to be an extension of our domicile.

If the scumbag punk had stuck his head in my doorway at my house and demanded all of my money, he would not have even had the breath left to say "Go ahead and shoot me" before he was shot.

And the law down here say says there is no difference between my home and my vehicle.

Jeff

soccergod04
May 30, 2008, 01:17 AM
Wow I need to move to Texas when I graduate.

Hook686
May 30, 2008, 03:04 AM
Yesterday 09:28 PM

TexasSeaRay wrote:



... By that "logic," a woman isn't justified in shooting a would-be rapist until he has her clothes off, is on top of her and in the act of committing sexual intercourse....

Texas remember that 'logic' does not really play a role in any scenario. Here in California it all comes down to what your attorney, or the District Attorney, can convince a jury is 'reasonable' under the 'Facts' of the scenario.

In your example, suppose the 'Rapist' was a 'Date rapist'. He had just spent $100 on concert tickets, $100 on dinner and a few drinks, and now was simply going to partake in a little 'Love making'. He just figured she was playing 'Hard to get' and he didn't have a clue she was going to shoot me, til she did.

Sometimes it comes down to who can create the more entertaining illusion to the illusion, or who can 'Bore' the jury the most. 'Logic' often depends upon whose 'Logic' one is using.

To the OP, if you felt in fear of serious injury, or loss of your life, why did you not shoot. By your not shooting, I conclude you really did not fear these things, in which case you were wise not to shoot. There is no 'Cookbook' answer to your question. What I do suspect, is anytime you pull your gun, be prepared to pay an attorney for a legal defense. If you actually shoot, be prepared to spend a lot of money on that attorney.

gvf
May 30, 2008, 03:13 AM
Ignoring this nuts definition of a "failed" act of self-defense:
You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. (Right, a real failure: no injuries of any kind.... to anyone and the threat gone.....terrible outcome....),
your question: The question is, with a man inside your car (leaning inside) and threatening you for your money, life, when is the appropriate time to defend yourself? was actually answered by yourself:

As an aside, we were able to pull away, and he fell out of the car. I didn't have to shoot.

You didn't have to shoot, so, you didn't. You followed what is the usual foundation of SD law and its ethical intent: the necessity of having "the reasonable belief - [in the legal sense of the Reasonable Person : i.e., any reasonable person in the same circumstance would believe the same thing] - of one's IMMINENT death/serious injury with no other action possible but to take a potentially lethal self-defense action in order to stop this imminent attack" Sounds like prior to all those conditions prompting such an action, you tried one last, or the other person driving did: you pulled away, and fate intervened as the car moved: the attacker fell out of the car.

You did fine, you waited until that was nearly all there, the Reasonable Belief, the "appropriateness", but then bingo! you or another who was driving take off in the car causing the attacker to fall out and the threat to diminish. No reason then to shoot.
So, you weren't killed, the attacker wasn't hurt or killed, AND the attack stopped. You defended yourself by drawing your gun and being at the ready, and then by driving away. All of this worked. This was no failure, but a success.


What would have happened with other theoretical outcomes some posted,had they actually occurred? (E.g.., you had shot earlier on.) You don't know, anything could have happened. Likely though one or both of you would have ended up dead or very hurt or another person would have, and you'd have had monumental potential upset to your life, internal and external: a LOT of grief of all sorts.

And you state your question well: what was the APPROPRIATE TIME to shoot, for YOU to shoot in THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, AT THAT TIME, under the influence of YOUR instincts. Some others - even if they are legally correct that a person, once his car has been forcibly entered, CAN shoot - mistake that technical permission with the APPROPRIATENESS of such an act, which are not always the same thing. Nor were they in your moment of truth. Their criteria - ("he's in the car, legal green light, go do it")- treats CCWs as people desirous of shooting and killing, just needing circumstances that fulfill technical legal requirements before they can go at it and activate their true desires.

My true desire is to stay safe, and only to do so by shooting, or by any lethal SD action, if that is truly the last house on the street. Sounds like this describes you too. if so: Excellent! And an excellent job in that tight situation!

tecdv
May 30, 2008, 06:35 AM
our vehicles--be they cars, boats, RVs, trucks, airplanes, etc--are considered by law to be an extension of our domicile.

And the law down here say says there is no difference between my home and my vehicle.

I'm an ex-Texan. For some reason I now live in Ohio. The good news is:

Castle Doctrine and CHL Reform Passes Senate! Sub. S.B. No. 184 has been concurred by the Ohio Senate 25-7! This bill will now go to Governor Strickland for his signature, which he indicated he would consent to.

I'm glad it all worked out for you without a shot fired. Not all that glad this POS is still walking the streets. Not sure if I could have/would have done the same thing. Hard to say unless your in the situation. I don't want to have to shoot anyone, but I definitely don't have a problem with doing so if needed.

xrocket
May 30, 2008, 07:00 AM
I think you did fine and I live in Texas. You used judgment and rational thought as to how to protect yourself and remain in control. If he had come into the car with any kind of weapon in his hand or went for one or flashed one after the fact than you should protect yourself with all available means to make him stop. Whatever it takes.

Thank you for posting your experience.

Carry on.

Sigma 40 Blaster
May 30, 2008, 07:12 AM
I am no tactical or legal expert but seeing stuff like this amazes me. Asking Internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

There is no substitute for knowing your state laws concerning the use of deadly force and the existence of a Castle Doctrine law, and what it entails.

A second part of the equation is knowing what capacities you will and CAN use your weapon in. Will you use it deter a threat (potentially a crime, brandishing to create the apprehension that you will use it is not legal in all states, some it is if you would be justified in using force, like Texas)? Will you use it as a list ditch effort to escape harm to you and yours?

A third part of the equation is knowing how hard you will try to avoid using your weapon. How much crow are you willing to eat? How submissive do you plan to be to de-escalate a situation? How alert are you to your surroundings to always leave yourself a route to escape without using your weapon if possible.

There are probably several more parts to the SD equation that equals a good shoot, bad shoot, or dead good guy but those three are the problems I see with the scenario as described.

I think the old addage "Don't pull a gun if you're not ready to use it" is highly appropriate for this situation. My greatest fear in trying to run away in a vehicle is that the BG would pull a weapon and try to empty his mag into the car as we were pulling away. GG bullets rarely do any good in a situation like that but BG bullets can easily make it through glass, car frames, seat cushions, and seemingly every other obstacle.

I believe for all intents and purposes someone sticking their head in your car and demanding money demonstrates intent to do harm. Some states might require a gun or knife pointed at while hopefully most would not. Some have a Right to Retreat law, some have a Stand Your Ground law. Learn the laws, apply them to some realistic and not-so-realistic scenarios and think your way through it. I also believe at the end of the day that the best gunfight is the one that was avoided, remember that flight is just as viable as fighting and work that into your "scenario planning".

GPossenti
May 30, 2008, 09:45 AM
The saddest thing about your story is that the guy really didn't care if you killed him or not. There are really people like that. Life must really hold no hope for them (at least in their minds).

It could be that the guy just called your bluff. Maybe he saw you as a pansy-@$$ white boy (like me) who was playing with daddy's gun. He didn't think you had the guts. Maybe he's been around so many tougher looking guys that he didn't think you'd shoot.

As for lanternlad's comments, I'd rather have more people with guns who were afraid to shoot than people who are unafraid and were a little overzealous, shooting when another solution would have been better.

chris in va
May 30, 2008, 10:23 AM
Firing a gun is the LAST line of defense, not the FIRST.

A guy hops in your car with no knife or weapon and demands money, shooting isn't the first thing you do. The OP did right, just drove away and let him fall out.

I can't believe how many people put all their defensive strategy into carrying a gun.

Now Clam I do have one question. Were the doors unlocked, or did he jump in through the open window that...should have been closed to begin with?

gdvan01
May 30, 2008, 11:43 AM
+1 Gotta love Texas...if he was inside or trying to get inside my truck...I would have shot.Damn straight. The gene pool needs to be cleaned every now and again, chlorine or bullets, whichever is needed at the time.

Doyle
May 30, 2008, 12:25 PM
KCabbage, you must live in one of the states that doesn't have a "Stand your ground" law. Here in Fl, the fact that he opened the door, got in, and threatened you means he voluntarily forfeited his legal right to live.

primlantah
May 30, 2008, 01:26 PM
I'm a native Texan. When i was a teenager someone tried something similar to me. I reacted the same except for i wasn't old enough for a gun. If it happened to me again i would shoot instead. my .02

KCabbage
May 30, 2008, 01:40 PM
Yes Doyle, I do not legally have the option of "standing my ground". Legally, I must try to escape first.

By that "logic,"
It's not Logic stone cold killer Jeff(Texassearay), its law!
Most of the states here in America do not have the Texas standard.
I'm not sure how you came to your rape conclusion, but if a woman "reasonably" fears for her life she must do what she has to do.

Just because you are open to legally shoot(defend yourself) doesn't always mean you should. If you do shoot, it might hit you HARD afterwards if you really had to shoot/end his life.

On the up-tip, maybe this would be robber will have a appifany soon in life that will change his ways. :)
It's probably bleek, but it's possible. I've seen the light myself, and I wont even kill a bug, well, maybe i'll slay some mesquitos. But don't get me wrong, if I need to defend myself, family, or another innocent, you bet i'll blast!

I have a story that goes along with not shooting because you can, but i'm a little tired of starring at this computer. Maybe when i'll get some energy I will post.

Flame me if you must, but I want the best for all!
Take care gentlemen and ladies.

tplumeri
May 30, 2008, 01:57 PM
maybe this would be robber will have a appifany soon in life that will change his wa

do you mean "epiphany", as in the sudden realization,comprehension and or understanding of something?
like the guy in the Diner at the end of pulp fiction?
nah, not likely to happen.
tom

BTW, I would have fired.

KCabbage
May 30, 2008, 02:14 PM
Oh yes, thank you.

I thought the guy was just asking for money? In most states, you cannot legally take a life to protect property.

What exactly happened when he "jumped in the car"?

clam
May 30, 2008, 07:10 PM
Thanks for all the good viewpoints. I am mainly concerned with what DA would do with a case where an armed man shot an unarmed (?) man in his car.

I must address the multiple comments "if your not willing to pull the trigger, you shouldn't carry".

I agree, however, being military, several years ago, I pulled the trigger a lot. It was legal. I have no moral reservations about taking a life if necessary. I do if it is unnecessary.

The scenerio went down as:
1. wrong turn into "riot" area
2. drew pistol, just in case
3. man jumped in car.

I think "GVF" hit the nail on the head with the appropriate time comments.

I know a friend who shot a known murderer/rapist in his house, and the liberal DA tried hard to try him for manslaughter. We all cringe and cry foul, but I think you better be correct in the decision.

Thanks again for all the post.

clam
May 30, 2008, 07:12 PM
BTW, can someone point me to a good resource, or explain what exactly is Castle Doctrine?

Is it the same in all states that have the "castle doctrine"? I move around a LOT (7 times in 8 years), and I have looked at the quick reference gun books, and they list states that have or don't have the castle doctrine. I know TX is WAY different in their laws that say GA or FL.

wayneinFL
May 30, 2008, 07:50 PM
Personally, I think you would have been justified to shoot. You were the passenger. How could you safely retreat? The best way to retreat is to speed away in the car, and you were in no position to do that. So you jump out of the car and lose your best means of retreat? Doesn't make sense.

And there had to be some reason you felt he was a threat. Even if he hadn't pulled a weapon, did he allude to one somehow? And having your sidearm out possibly prevented him from pulling his. I'd like to point put that in such close quarters, he could have had a weapon if he had taken yours, even if he didn't bring one himself.

The law isn't black and white. There is a certain point at which there is no right or wrong answer. At this point you would have to look to case law, and at convincing a jury to see it your way. If I were on a jury I wouldn't convict you. However, this starts to turn into a game of "Who's got the best lawyer, the most money and lots of luck?"

soccergod04
May 31, 2008, 04:36 AM
A new point to make. Why, if you knew you were in a seedy situation was he able to simple 'jump in' your car. You should have had the windows up and doors locked. You have to change your level of awareness to suit the situation around you as it evolves.

KCabbage
May 31, 2008, 07:46 AM
When I asked what happened, I meant, did he open a door and sit in the car or open and lean in? You keep saying he jumped in. Did he "jump" in through your window?
Just curious
Maybe its time to pack some mace.
Take care

MickGoBragh
May 31, 2008, 11:20 AM
I just took a CCW course and the guy was a retired gunners mate in the navy and retired sheriff of 20 years and went through most possible scenarios for "when to draw". Although most states don't require you go to one of these classes to get your CCP, I HIGHLY advise you to go. There is a lot of methods and rules to be understood in your state. I'm from Va where its an open carry state (I could legally walk around with a pistol strapped in plain view and its legal). In Texas you can kill anyone on your property regardless. And for the most part in Florida you can shoot anyone who pretty much looks at you wrong. LOL

When it comes to drawing in that situation, you have to use one common rule. Flight, Fight, or Fire. If you are walking down the street and an old man is 20 yds away with a knife and you are a 23 year old football player, then you are obviously not in imminent danger. Having said that if you were a 115 girl walking down the street at night and 2 guys at 230 lbs each, grabbed you into an alley, you would have every right to blow them away. Also drawing at the wrong time could bring brandishing a firearm charges so be careful. Enjoy

threegun
May 31, 2008, 12:20 PM
I'm going to Monday morning quarterback this. A you should have rolled your windows up immediately. Turned the car around immediately. Since you didn't you now have these concerns about your actions. You did great in that you escaped without injury and without having to shoot.

I would have shot only because I have decided to take my chances in court before taking a beating. This guy was trying to rob you and threatening to kill you.

Windows up so he had to break it.....then bang

Dean C
June 1, 2008, 09:31 AM
Been sittin' back on this one for awhile.
Guess I got ta' say my BS meter went up on this a bit.
Sounds to me like you might have been lookin' for a bit of action and got a bit more than expected. Oh ya', there might have been a bit of truth streatchin' here too.
dean

twhidd
June 1, 2008, 10:05 AM
"Castle Doctrine" or "Stand your ground law" Whatever you call it. Georgia has such a law. It was passed last year and Governor Perdue signed it. It removes the duty to retreat, and to provide that such person has a right to meet force with force. That includes deadly force. And the person who uses deadly force shall be immune from criminal prosecution. I was senate bill 396

Dusty Rivers
June 1, 2008, 11:42 AM
Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray to be in the glove box next to your gun. Gun in one hand, pepper spray the attacker right in the eye. In this case you had the time to use a less than lethal force defense, along with driving away. pepper spray is not always the choice, but it does give you an alternative option.

I live in Texas also.:cool: I don't think we want to give the world a wrong impression of us- and the use of deadly force. we have good CCW laws that allow us to protect ourselves. Sometime we actually think before we shoot:D
we still should be thoughtful and use escalation of force, and as someone else frequently says-run screaming like a little girl ( not a lady) is frequently the best first choice, even in Texas:) if necessary we can and do treat our property as if it were the Alamo. We can fight when necessary, or we can buy you a beverage!

Spade Cooley
June 1, 2008, 04:50 PM
I would say that rule number one in a city like Atlanta would be to keep the windows rolled up and the doors locked. I'm from Los Angeles and we had a large number of purses stolen near LAX Airport. Women would pull up to a red light and some scuz ball would leap out from the bus stop and get the purse through the open window.

I doubt I would have shot the man but I would have made him think that I wanted to. I would love to take him for a little ride up to about 60 before he fell off. I wonder how fast he would have backed off if a warning shot went near his ear? I doubt he wanted to die and had nothing to live for. That's a bunch of bull. He just knew he could call the average whities bluff.

As I've said before on this board and many have challanged my thinking on this issue. If you do shoot in this instance, make sure you have a good story. "I drew my gun and he reached for it". It went off accidently. Who are they going to believe if you go before a jury?

gvf
June 2, 2008, 01:17 AM
As I've said before on this board and many have challanged my thinking on this issue. If you do shoot in this instance, make sure you have a good story. "I drew my gun and he reached for it". It went off accidently. Who are they going to believe if you go before a jury?

Not you since this is now recorded publicly and electronically.

ImDisaster
June 2, 2008, 07:06 AM
I'm trying to understand your situation. You were in the passenger seat and the guy jumped into the passenger seat? He fell out when you sped away? Do you mean he leaned in through the window.

I have to agree with others that say they would have had the windows up and the doors locked in this scenario.

As far as drawing my weapon I will only do that when the situation has escalated to the point where I expect harm. Once someone is on top you, and you've drawn your weapon, but not used it, you have increased the chance that they could disarm you and use it on you.

I'm not saying I would have shot someone who was leaning in the window and asking for my money...especially someone who wasn't brandishing any kind of weapon. Speeding off, which was obviously possible was the best choice.

threegun
June 2, 2008, 07:45 AM
I'm trying to understand your situation. You were in the passenger seat and the guy jumped into the passenger seat? He fell out when you sped away? Do you mean he leaned in through the window.


I would like to hear a better explanation myself.

Moe Howard
June 2, 2008, 08:42 AM
Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray to be in the glove box next to your gun. Gun in one hand, pepper spray the attacker right in the eye. In this case you had the time to use a less than lethal force defense, along with driving away. pepper spray is not always the choice, but it does give you an alternative option.


Spraying pepper spray inside your car:confused:


Not really enough details, but going on what we have in the OP, my windows would have already been up when I noticed I was in a bad neighborhood. The OP was able to drive away and all ended well enough but, if that was the case why was a guy able to get in the window in the first place. No better starting place than being aware of your surroundings and reacting appropriately. However if you find yourself in that bad situation and since you can never tell if someone has a concealed weapon or not, if some guy caught me off guard and was in my car window demanding money and threatening me, and I stuck my gun in his chest the words "go ahead and do it" would never have made it out of his mouth, it would have already been done. I do not endorse vigilantism, but if someone is upon you threatening you with money or you life, that IS the appropriate time to defend yourself. I am not sure what some guys are waiting on. I guess some people have the mentality they need to be badly injured before defending themselves, or possibly they are more afraid of their states laws than of the BG, which is just sad and thank God I live in Texas.
I was not there, and in an internet post you can never give all the details and since I was not there I don't want to come across as, "this is exactly what I would have done" because I don't know that, it wasn't me. I guess I just have the mentality that if someone is upon me threatening me with my money or my life, that is not someone I will trust to NOT harm me even if he gets what he wants. I refuse to allow some BG to have that kind of decision to make over me. That is not to say it could not happen, the scenarios, are endless, but I refuse to allow my son to grow up without me because I handed the decision of, weather I live or die over to some scumbag.

Spade Cooley
June 2, 2008, 10:49 AM
And then there are the people who think the poor soul was depressed and had nothing to live for, that he was still bemoaning the fact that his ancestors were slaves, that he was a victim of descrimination, has nothing to live for, etc. These are the fools that become victims.

The ones who prepare tactical plans in advance are the ones who survive. They train cops to think, "What would I do if placed in this particular situation". When you have the program in your head it is very likely you will follow it.

But the guy who thinks ahead and doesn't place himself/herself in jeopardy is the one who will most likely never have to use deadly force.

TINCUP AL
June 2, 2008, 11:14 AM
Something about this story just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe it's just me.

threegun
June 2, 2008, 11:45 AM
Sounds like the typical curbside pharmacy transaction gone bad story we see on the news everyday LOL.

I'm not accusing just poking fun.

CyberSEAL
June 3, 2008, 05:58 PM
As soon as he said "I don't care, shoot me". Kudos for handing yourself well and making it out.

Heraclid
June 3, 2008, 06:52 PM
Weird, I was just watching an episode of Cops and two guys told the cops to just shoot them in one episode.

I agree with those calling BS on this one, though...

Dusty Rivers
June 3, 2008, 08:59 PM
I never said you should peepper spray inside your car:barf:

Moe Howard
June 3, 2008, 10:41 PM
don't miss quote me
I never said you should peepper spray inside your car



Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray

Incident took place inside a car.:p

oneSoneK
June 3, 2008, 10:52 PM
I'd have shot him. My "Do Not Cross" line in that situation is my car. You touch it (with violence) and I have a reasonable expectation that my life is in danger, or you are trying to steal my property - either is reasonable use of deadly force here in Texas. You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. From that scenario, it appears that you don't. If you don't, you really have no reason to carry a gun.

+1 Gotta love Texas...if he was inside or trying to get inside my truck...I would have shot.

+1 I agree "DOA" if your willing to jump into someones car while ther in it then you must be prepared to do violence. My wife and son are most likely gonna be with me and if not for my self i would have shot just to protect them. I was once told that " A gun is not an intimidation factor, Never NEVER draw your weapon unless you intend to shoot, a gun has no place in a fist fight." In texas we can do that though im not sure about any other states.

AdamSean
June 4, 2008, 03:46 AM
I have been in similar situations twice. Each time, I did NOT shoot. It all happened so fast, but later examination caused me to realize the proper time to pull the trigger. The time to shoot is when you are left with no other option. If the guy had disabled your vehicle, cornered you, aimed a gun at you and left you no means of escape or alternatives, and you felt he would really harm you, then you have no other option than to shoot. And you can defend yourself in court and be within your rights.

Nnobby45
June 4, 2008, 04:17 AM
What is the appropriate time to pull the trigger?

I've never had to shoot in SD, and can't claim to be an expert, but it seems like anyone who ever had to pull the trigger made that decision on their own.

In my state, the same rules apply to a car as for your home--at least where a criminal attack like the attempted robbery you described is concerned.

Of course, all his buddies would have testified that he just wanted a ride and meant no harm.

I wonder how many of these "go ahead and shoot me" guys would feel that way about a .40 S&W gender alteration and testosterone adjustment? :D

MickGoBragh
June 4, 2008, 08:02 PM
not to mention if you shoot below the waistline you can't get charged with attempted murder:D

clam
June 4, 2008, 09:50 PM
So, lots of questions on how I got to a CCW situation.

If I were able to aviod it...probably would have.

Here are the details.

Left resteraunt at T- 2 minutes.

Drove through empty downtown for one minute.

at T- 30 seconds, made a turn into unexpected RIOT:eek: situation with windows down.

at T-20 secons, street person jumped into window (now surrounded by 1+ thousand roiters).

In retrospect, wouldn't have been in ATL that weekend.

Having been in ATL and seeing that, drew pistol @ T-20 seconds.

2 seconds later, guy jumped through open window.

had gun drawn at T-20.

@ T-18, guy is leaning inside car.

Threat made him leave.

For all those who recommend shooting, please let me know the legal prescedence for shooting a guy leaning in your window asking for money.

I have gotten lots of good replies, but a lot are shoot first, ask questions later.

Having taken lethal force before, not sure if this was justified in GA.

Any legit comments on GA law/cases. ?

It worked out NOT shooting here. If it had not worked out, would this be a justified shoot under law? Again, when is the APPROPRIATE time to shoot?

What if's aside?

rburch
June 4, 2008, 11:01 PM
Glad you got out okay, you're in a bad situation in a car, it means you're close enough for the other guy to take your gun very quickly, and you're not free to move. Also that close you're at real risk of knife attack.

If your standing in the open, and the other guy is 20 or more feet off or there's a car or something keeping him away, then I would give him the chance to run.

If there's nothing keeping him off of me, or he's armed with a weapon, then I'm pulling the trigger.

Now a little legal advise. If you are going to use any type of self defense, then erase the word KILL from your vocabulary. The objective of any type of self defense is to STOP or PREVENT the, for lack of a better term, "bad guy" from hurting you or anyone else.

If you carry a gun, take the time and money to get training, both in how to use the gun for self defense, and in some type of martial art or unarmed self defense class. You may very well find yourself in a situation where your gun is not available.

And make sure your chosen training deals with defense against guns and knives, they may take yours away.

oneSoneK
June 4, 2008, 11:09 PM
It worked out NOT shooting here. If it had not worked out, would this be a justified shoot under law? Again, when is the APPROPRIATE time to shoot?



I think it all depends on where your at.
Its easy to play monday q.b.after the threat is gone but you have to remember you might not have time to analyze the situation its a matter of life or death in those few seconds that you worry about him.. that could cost you your life. Im just glad it worked out for you.

Moe Howard
June 5, 2008, 12:04 AM
The question is, with a man inside your car (leaning inside) and threatening you for your money, life, when is the appropriate time to defend yourself?


This is from the original post, Inside your car and Threatening you for your money, life.

Then in a more recent post you asked.

For all those who recommend shooting, please let me know the legal prescedence for shooting a guy leaning in your window asking for money.

Notice anything missing?

As I stated before this would be an appropriate time to defend yourself. No one can make that call for you, but defending yourself in this moment is not shooting first and asking questions later, it is defending yourself plain and simple. State laws will vary on when to use deadly force which causes a lot of internet confusion, and is a big reason you get differing opinions. Some of us live in more free states and are allowed to exercise our God given right to defend ourselves and loved ones. Remember the onus is on the BG, that is the root of the problem. BGs take their own lives into their own hands when they decide to commit an offense on a fellow human being.
Assuming all is true here, replay it in your head, this time put a gun in the guys hand and you don't shoot. Is not shooting still the right move? There is not a right or wrong answer it is a personal decision.

gvf
June 5, 2008, 01:28 AM
The need to shoot - which has to be to stop an imminent lethal attack - would, if it existed, already have been proven: the OP, having refrained from action to stop that attack, would not be posting because he would have been killed or grievously injured. He wasn't, he's fine, there was no attack. He judged aright

On top of this: he was there.

Second guessing a positive outcome of a situation you weren't involved in? Kind of wacky. Especially as it involves killing people.

HKFan9
June 15, 2008, 01:12 AM
As soon as those words left his mouth, my hollow point would of left my pistol. Then theres 1 side of the story, and thats from the law aibding citizen side. Just MHO. The way I look at it is, if infact the crowd was a RIOT, than it was an illegal and unlawful gathering of people that did indeed had hostile intent. 1 the man risked life/injury to jump into a moving vehicle even if you were going 2mph i saw the same thing happen n watched someones leg get mangled, not pretty. 2 HE CLEARLY showed he had no concern for his life when you had a pistol to his chest and said yea go ahead do it. Him not having concern for his own life shows he has no concern for yours. You are lucky he fell from the car, who knows what would of happened if he did not, you do not know if he was armed with a gun knife or other form of a wepon, or worse yet grabbed yours. Many people keep referring to the man being unarmed, but what if he latched onto your throat with his hands. A double carotid choke is a pretty quick and easy way to injure/kill someone. I'm glad to hear you did not shoot, and will agree you were probably right in doing so, but I could also see someone justifying shooting. I would think/hope a jury would not punish you, but sadly we know due process isn't always right.