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Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 08:42 AM
A little while back I was walking my dog who is now a 150 pound Rottweiler, at the time however he was nothing more then a puppy barely as tall as a boot . A car drives by, sitting inside in the passenger seat was an a young unruly-looking sort that you just know has already done some time. Driving the car was his girl friend.

Now I am pretty darn sure that I didn't look at him cross eyed . . . I am pretty darn sure all I did was look AT the car to see who was inside because I hadn't seen the vehicle around before. As they round the corner and pass me (being that they had there windows open) I could just barely here him say as he looked right at me "keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you." and his girl friend covered her mouth laughing apparently happy with her choice in boyfriend . . . :rolleyes:

I guess years of proper hearing protection at the range as kept my ears in pretty good condition, because even though he said it mostly under his breath , I was still able to here it over the wind and the car engine. Of coarse, if he HAD tried to get out of the car and "beat the ****" out of me" the joke would be on him because I was CCW at the time. :)

So here is the scenario I'd like to cover today:


Lets say the car screeched to a stop and Mr. fantastic there got out of the car yelling profanities with a violent posture. At first I would back off away from him (being that my Rotty at the time was a puppy--he don't but up with garbage like that now!;)) and would most likely inform him in a calm but assertive voice that I want no trouble. Being that THAT has probably never worked in the history of mankind . . . I think I would draw him closer to me (and farther away from the car) as far as I could, and begin telling him to Back off! Back off! much more assertively.

And being that THAT barely works half of the time, rather then get into it halfway in the middle of nowhere with someone who is much bigger then me I would most likely pull my CCW.


Here's thing? Anyone ever think about what happens next? You DON'T want him running back to the car to go get what might very well be a gun of his own. (whether he was licensed to carry or not :rolleyes:)

1.) Lets say he instantly turns and runs back to the car as fast as he can? I don't think thatS justification to shoot in the eyes of the law. It would be a bullet in the back (and) the legal outcome would most likely depend on whether or not there was ACTUALLY a gun in the vehicle that he was going for. If not, you just shot a fleeing unarmed man . . . BIG trouble that will most likely mean that you will be meeting his friends in the big house.

2.) Your intuition says that this big mindless peace of meat is going for something. That he's not running . . . What do you do . . . your life is now on the line. You can't run, he's the one thats going to shoot you in the back as you flee.

Outcome as best as I can figure:

YOU chase HIM back to his car. If he doesn't instantly jump back in, if he REACHES for anything, you pump him up with several rounds of .45 ACP HST Hollow points.



Any alternatives?

Commence . . .:)

jfrey123
May 27, 2008, 08:53 AM
http://www.ceannmor.com/images/CanOfWorms.jpg


This explains my thoughts. I really can't even formulate a response to this one.

Musketeer
May 27, 2008, 08:54 AM
You do NOT chase him. Can you see the old lady who watched this from her porch telling the cops how you chased the guy to his car and shot him in the back as he tried to get in...

You learn to apologize and let the moron go on his way with his inflated ego. Your job is not to teach him a lesson or do anything else of the sort. You can call the police after the fact to report the confrontation and his threats. From your "intuition" he may already be on probation and such a call would not be good for him.

You are not going to get away with shooting him because you think he may have a gun on him or in the car.

If he is pretty close, making physical threats absent of obvious lethal force (knife, gun or a very large disparity in physical force), and is not allowing you to leave I would give him a nice shot of OC in the face, depart and call the police.

If your only tool is a hammer you treat every problem like a nail.

primlantah
May 27, 2008, 09:03 AM
Your gonna get a lot of answers. This will vary state by state. The advice i have for you would probably be bad advice if your practiced it... maybe not for me though.

primlantah
May 27, 2008, 09:04 AM
You learn to apologize and let the moron go on his way with his inflated ego

I think the OP is suggesting that doesn't work.

Musketeer
May 27, 2008, 09:32 AM
I understand but there is a strong possibility the response he indicated escalated the situation.

Such morons are looking to look good in front of their peers and women. I have experienced this before with a really ticked off biker in traffic who took the time to come to my car window at a red light and give every indication of looking to drag me through it and beat me in the street.

Being "assertive" with such a testosterone driven Neanderthal will not de-escalate the situation. To them it is a challenge, and to be honest it is often presented as one by the victim since eating crow for no "good reason" turns most people off.

I am saying apologize and really make him believe it. Let him know how sorry you are and that you meant nothing. Let him believe you are afraid of him and let it look so for his audience, the reason he often is performing. Anything less with such a moron will escalate the situation.

If that fails and you wind up having to kill the idiot you can honestly attest that you did everything possible to avoid the situation. In my case I did not have to pull the trigger, I never even flashed. I did have the gun in hand and out of sight though and knew exactly when I would use it if the situation went beyond the point of no return. Harley Head went back to his woman and friends looking cool for scaring the college kid and I got to avoid killing someone. Learn to be confident with the fact that acting scared to placate a moron does not mean one really fears the moron.

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 10:00 AM
"and would most likely inform him in a calm but assertive voice that I want no trouble."


"Hey I don't want no trouble man . . ." while I'm backing away. What else can be done? If at any point he would stop and continue his threats without approaching then it would be over with. If he keeps coming, then after a fashion you escalate as you reach behind suggesting that you are armed. What else can you do?

Musketeer your Biker quit after you showed your initial submission . . .

"Can of worms time"

Maybe I don't spend enough time one this part of the forum? Is stuff like this covered allot?

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 10:01 AM
Just to clarify, I had no pepper spray on me at the time. Nor did I have have a tazer. People who are CCW never really do . . .

buzz_knox
May 27, 2008, 10:04 AM
Chasing him puts you in the position of the aggressor, and provides him with a good argument that he was in fear for his life.

How about option 3? Find cover for you and the pup and wait to see what the subject does. If he comes out with a weapon, deal with the situation appropriately. If he doesn't and just leaves, then deal with the situation appropriately.

The key phrase there is "deal with the situation appropriately." Chasing someone who isn't displaying a weapon and hasn't committed a crime doesn't meet that description.

It's also a bad idea to state openly that a preferred tactic is to draw the potential aggressor in and then chase him to the car where you may "pump him" with rounds if he doesn't do precisely what you think he should in that case.

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 10:08 AM
"It's also a bad idea to state openly that a preferred tactic is to draw the potential aggressor in and then chase him to the car where you may "pump him" with rounds if he doesn't do precisely what you think he should in that case."


Hang on fella's before this gets out of hand. I said draw him farther away from his vehicle being that he may also be carrying a weapon inside of it. I did not say draw him in . . .

Quote:

"I think I would draw him closer to me (and farther away from the car) as far as I could"



I also said reaches for anything inside of the vehicle instead of just jumping back in . . .


And by chasing I meant maybe 4 to 5 yards at best . . .

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 10:13 AM
Option 3 doesn't work in Florida because there is literally almost no cover beyond the street. To much under brush to cut you up.


Besides, how many roads really have "cover" in close proximity. Even running to the nearest house can take some time?

buzz_knox
May 27, 2008, 10:23 AM
The key point in taking cover (which should have also included the term concealment) is that you are 1) breaking his line of advance thereby making it harder for him to get to you, 2) demonstrating to him that you don't want to fight, and 3) being able to demonstrate points 1 and 2 to a trier of fact, thereby establishing that you were the victim. Most anything would work to meet this need, including bushes, houses, ditches, etc.

Drawing him in and chasing him down tend to convince triers of fact that you are the aggressor. They are tactics that can be used in a civilian context in the right circumstances, but a street argument isn't one of those circumstances.

As for shooting him if he reaches for anything, that's the furtive movement concept. It applies where someone makes a movement inconsistent with either a stated command or which is consistent only with reaching for a weapon. But in your situation, you are chasing someone back to their vehicle and are planning to shoot him if he doesn't immediately jump in and reaches for anything . . . like the keys to said vehicle you didn't see him put in his pocket. After all, it's hard to get away from the crazy guy with a gun who's chasing you if you can't start the car, and darned if he didn't remember that his keys were in his pocket just before he jumped in.

Is that the most likely scenario? Maybe not. Maybe's he's reaching for a bat (which is a danger to you because you followed him), or maybe he's reaching for a grenade launcher. Who knows? Honestly, you won't be able to tell because you have indicated a plan to fire based on his reaching for something, and not the knowledge of what that something is.

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 10:33 AM
"After all, it's hard to get away from the crazy guy with a gun who's chasing you if you."

LOL . . . :D I guess that would be me.

You know I posted to ask . . . not to tell.


But, being a person who has not yet been involved in such an instance (Fingers crossed that I never will) BUT, on the flip side of that I do have VAST and I mean VAST experience on walking on the side of the road. (literally years of practice since I was in elementary school) I can say that "Running for cover" takes more time then it takes someone else to make it a few paces back to there car and pull out a weapon.


But basically your saying my theoretical technique is to aggressive . . .


Anyone disagree?

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 10:41 AM
And if we are going to get into technical specifics here, if we wasn't driving the car in the first place, and his girl friend was still in the drivers seat, then he's not "going for the keys" when he's reaching for the glove box is he?


I respect all opinions but if we are going to be REALLY REALISTIC here the most dangerous witness is his girl friend. God only knows what she might come up with REGARDLESS of how it went down. Take cover or not, manic with a gun chasing her boy friend or not . . . it won't matter.


Her boyfriend will be dead and innocent . . . and she will be the crying girl in the front seat . . .

Rich Miranda
May 27, 2008, 11:01 AM
Aqeous, my thoughts are that you'll have to wait and see.

I would NOT chase him, or even move quickly toward him. This makes you the aggressor, even though it's probably a normal reaction. In my view, even if you say you feared for your life, this just looks like you were peeved he confronted you.

Let me get it straight: You (feel threatened and) draw. He turns and runs. You fear he's going for a weapon. I'm not sure if I have the wits to actually do this in the same situation, but I think you should: maintain your stance and your aim. Wait until bozo actually chooses one option or the other. If he's running, he'll likely jump in the seat and tell his girlfriend to hit the gas (in other words it will be obvious). If he's going for the weapon, he'll probably give you signs such as leaning and reaching into the car, and not actually going to sit down. If he does try to pull a weapon, you'll still have the advantage as he's facing away from you and is not aiming, etc. As he turns, you shoot. I doubt he's going to throw a Bible at you. ;)

This is what CCW is intended for, immediate danger to life. Of course, I am the Official Armchair Advisor. Take all I say with a grain (or two) of salt. :)

Tim Burke
May 27, 2008, 11:29 AM
Just to clarify, I had no pepper spray on me at the time. Nor did I have have a tazer. People who are CCW never really do . . .Some us do, on the off chance that we meet someone that we don't need to shoot.

Musketeer
May 27, 2008, 11:43 AM
Just to clarify, I had no pepper spray on me at the time. Nor did I have have a tazer. People who are CCW never really do . . .

That is your choice. I do though, and know others who also do so. There are plenty of situations where lethal force is not warranted yet force is called for. That is where something like OC comes in. If all you have is a gun one could argue your only choice may be an escalation to lethal force. Depending on the jurisdiction that could be a problem.

My biker did not back down immediately. There was plenty of shouting and threatening, enough that I was hoping someone else would be calling 911 but this was 92 and cell phones were not common then. Not once though was I assertive with him. A 5'4" college student does not behave assertively with some deranged 6'+ biker if he wants to de-escalate the situation. If it had escalated I would have used force as appropriate. I had both OC and a gun although I would not have used OC in this instance. Being inside the car with an open window there was plenty of opportunity for the OC to affect me and inhibit my ability to escape harm. Likewise the traffic situation made driving away impossible.

Musketeer
May 27, 2008, 11:45 AM
In almost any circumstance chasing the criminal is a BAD idea. Distance is your friend and if he is running one way there is no reason you cannot be going the other. If you chase him with a gun in hand to prevent him from escalating the situation you have already done so.

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 11:49 AM
That is some darn good armchair advise :) I like it.

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 11:51 AM
Question guys?


I would honestly like to know how you conceal both gun and pepper spray? I haven't figured that part out yet?

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 11:53 AM
So maybe instead of chasing . . . getting into a better "shooting possition" would be better. You know a clear line of sight that is not necessarily right on top of him . . .

Makes sense . . .


Got to go to work now . . . by all means keep posting. ;)

Rich Miranda
May 27, 2008, 12:00 PM
I would honestly like to know how you conceal both gun and pepper spray?

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd bother trying to conceal pepper spray. I have no idea of what the law here in Texas is.

Musketeer
May 27, 2008, 12:07 PM
IWB holster for the gun and pocket for the OC... Not really that hard. You are not looking to carry a fire extinguisher around, a simple unit like is sold in most gun shops will due.

Kragax
May 27, 2008, 12:12 PM
Where I live you have the right to use a firearm to defend yourself ONLY if you honestly belive that your life or that of a third party is in jepordy. Even a smqack upside the head doesn't justify the used of deadly force. It is a last resort do or die situation. I would rather get a broken nose than kill someone. Pull a weapon though, tell Jesus I said hello.

David Armstrong
May 27, 2008, 12:22 PM
Any alternatives?
Yep. When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone.

kunlao21
May 27, 2008, 01:26 PM
Please be sure to check your State Statutes regarding self-defense and duty to retreat before reading any of my rambles :)

In this case, the only variables I could fathom would be if the assailant was within a few feet of his door and verbally indicated an intention to retrieve a firearm or other deadly weapon, then turned and went for it. Your case has a better chance if you acted with deadly force to terminate his perceived immediate threat. As in, "If I didn't fire, he would have got to his (Insert deadly weapon).

There is some understanding if you can properly... I mean very properly articulate your fear of death or great bodily harm. If he was a chasing distance away (4 or 5 yards) from you and/or the car, it's probably not going to put you in immediate harm, but enough to at least draw to low-ready or up on target in anticipation, depending on your level of fear.

I wouldn't give chase to position for a better point blank shot, but if you can run towards him, you could also likely run for cover/conclmnt. Showing at least some attempt to get away from the aggressor. Or just draw and stand your ground (depending on your state).

I personally find it bothersome that states are inconsistent with allowing their citizens to stand their ground. I'd hate to go on vacation to find myself in a situation where I'm trying to remember others' SD laws.

Also, notify PD ASAP, since in a few minutes, you might walk into some deputies mentioning something about a Sunday School teacher and his bible study girlfriend stopping to ask directions for the local Hebrew School when this crazy man with a puppy and a .45 tried to kill them. :p

That's why I just use..."High Karate!" :D

BikerRN
May 27, 2008, 01:26 PM
Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone.

+1 Mr. Armstrong.

As the original post was written it was not IMHO and knowledge of local laws, a "shooting situation". It could become one, depending on what transpires next. If this happened to me I would attempt to not make it become a "shooting situation".

Eating a little crow is cheaper than a civil or criminal trial.

Biker

Keltyke
May 27, 2008, 01:38 PM
You can only shoot to stop an immediate threat.

1.) Lets say he instantly turns and runs back to the car as fast as he can? I don't think thatS justification to shoot in the eyes of the law.

Right, you'll be up for assault or attempted murder or murder.

depend on whether or not there was ACTUALLY a gun in the vehicle that he was going for.

Nope, you had no reason to believe there was a gun in the car. Your free life is history in this case.

2.) Your intuition says that this big mindless peace of meat is going for something. That he's not running . . . What do you do . . . your life is now on the line. You can't run, he's the one thats going to shoot you in the back as you flee.

Again, wrong. If he's moving away from you and has shown no weapon, there IS NO THREAT.

YOU chase HIM back to his car. If he doesn't instantly jump back in, if he REACHES for anything, you pump him up with several rounds of .45 ACP HST Hollow points.
Partially right.

Let's look at it this way. You've all watched cops drawn down on some perp with a gun hanging at his side. You've all heard "drop the gun" countless times. Why don't the cops just blow the guy away? Because they have the drop on him. If he raises the gun one inch, they got him cold and he's dead meat.

Get the drop on him.
Assume a defensive posture with your hand on your weapon, but not drawn. Raise a hand and command "STAY BACK, STOP NOW!"
If he doesn't:
Draw your weapon, take one step back, and point it at his heart. Give a command "STAY BACK, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT YOU."
If he doesn't:
When he's about 10 feet away, take him out.
If he's down but still menacing you, finish the job. Shoot until the threat is negated.
BTW, this may all happen in the space of 10 seconds.

He had opportunity, ability, and intent.

If he steps back at any point and goes back to his vehicle, track on him. Even if he tries to bring out a gun, you still have the drop on him. If he drives off, stay where you are, get the license number and call the LEOs.

I watched my CWP instructor play out almost this exact scenario in class. When he pointed his weapon at the wall and issued the commands, I almost wet my pants. You HAVE to make the perp believe you WILL shoot him.

spacemanspiff
May 27, 2008, 02:51 PM
rather then get into it halfway in the middle of nowhere with someone who is much bigger then me I would most likely pull my CCW.
In my state, that isnt a lawful option. Your scenario has an unarmed aggressive butthead that wants to throw down. You can run. You can de-escalate the situation by apologizing, saying you are his beeyotch, you would perform many favors for him if he would just leave you alone.
Carrying a gun means you have to have the cooler head. It is for the defense of life, and a knuckledragging meathead may not exactly pose a deadly threat.

I watched a situation pan out similar to your hypothetical, just last Friday night. I was outside the bar, and refused one drunk guy, him and his less-intoxicated friend walked away. Another pair of individuals stopped the drunk guy, talked back and forth, trying to be all tough. The two I refused tried to walk away, went across the street, the other two followed and kept bothering them. Calling the skinny drunk guy out to fight, they wind up doing all the chest thumping, taking off their shirts, bumping into each other, all that good stuff. The skinny drunk guy finally had enough, and there was a throwdown. I couldnt tell who struck who first, but the skinny drunks friend had no part of it, his friend looked like he was going to be doubleteamed, but he was tougher than he looked, certainly more than the other guys figured him to be. Though it was two on one, the skinny drunk guy got the upper hand, connected on a good hit to the aggressors head, he goes down, his buddy flees. The skinny drunk then started stomping the guy on the ground, which is when we intervened, against the admonishment of a supervisor, we didnt like having to watch any of it, but we certainly werent going to just watch someone getting curbstomped.
The guy on the ground was knocked out, the skinny drunk went his way, 911 dispatch advised us not to detain, they sent an officer out, nothing came of it, or they would have returned for our statement and the video a passerby took of the entire incident.

Had this happened outside the bar I used to work at, we would have been involved and prevented it, the aggressor would have gotten pepper sprayed and put in cuffs to wait for police.

Keltyke
May 27, 2008, 03:22 PM
"In my state, that isnt a lawful option. Your scenario has an unarmed aggressive butthead that wants to throw down."

In SC, a gun can NOT be used to defend against a "simple assault". HOWEVER, disparity of sizes (a 6'5", 295 pound monster going against a 150 pound octogenarian), or a disparity of numbers (a biker gang against a sole jogger) makes a difference. If you feel you're in "imminent danger of grave physical harm"...

Also, the CWP carrier must be IN NO WAY at fault for the ocurrence of the incident in which he used his gun. In other words, if you call that 6'5", 296 pound guy someone a SOB and he begins punching you relentlessly, and you pull your gun and shoot him, it's your butt all the way.

tplumeri
May 27, 2008, 03:22 PM
Even a smqack upside the head doesn't justify the used of deadly force.

Really? If I have a weapon in my hand and have given appropriate warnings to the BG, do you REALLY think I'll let him get close enough to strike me?
Its great to imagine what you THINK you would do, but until youre in the situation you'll never know.
Ive been there. it took 5 yrs to clear the lawsuits. no criminal charges. my wife and i werent injured. BG survived.
BG was shot to death holding up a liquor store some years later. he shot and killed an innocent before the owner nailed him.
thats the bottom line. I plan to walk away, uninjured.
Ill take my chances with the legal system.

Musketeer
May 27, 2008, 03:26 PM
Also, the CWP carrier must be IN NO WAY at fault for the ocurrence of the incident in which he used his gun.
Excellent point that is overlooked often enough here, to say nothing of the media. Even states like FL with the "Stand Your Ground" law make an exception for when the shooter was dumb enough to escalate the situation.

threegun
May 27, 2008, 04:24 PM
I would turn around and leave. If he tries to pursue me I run. If he is gaining on me or I'm getting fatigued I draw and confront while retreating. If he continues to move in on me I now have no choice but to fire.

If he runs back to his car at the sight of my gun I continue to get out of dodge while looking for cover or ducking out behind a home or business. At the site of a firearm I open fire while giving as small a target as possible. Likely prone if no cover is available.

In my neck of the woods knocking on someones door with a gun in your hand is a bad idea so make sure your gun is not exposed if you beat on someones door.

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 05:36 PM
Can of worms is right . . . where to begin?


First off Keltyke---thats actually some A+ advise. Thanks for your post. :)


Secondly, to be honest, I think my original post was a little bit vague. I was in a good mood this morning and I kind of wrote the post with a certain amount candor that I don't usually post with . . . I guess lesson learned . . .

I didn't actually mean "Chase after him" as in running after him as he fled. That would make me the crazy guy with a .45 :D. In the scenario as I visualized it, the car would be only a few paces away, far to close to "chase" him to. I was visualizing that the vehicle would have stopped around the same distance as I heard him make his comment.


What is interesting though is how many different interpretations and opinions a group of people can derive from words that are spoken on the fly, or are just not specific enough to truly convey the whole idea.


THAT is an important lesson for all of us. Because from the cop that questions you to the jury that may be deciding your fate, little details will either doom you or set you free . . . I know I learned something here and it doesn't have to do with CCW it has more to do with what comes out of your mouth AFTER something actually happens.


Also: (In hind sight its actually kind of funny that this was taken so literally) I didn't actually MEAN pump him full of lead in the literal sense people :rolleyes: Double or triple tap to me is "being pumped full of .45 HST" But again lesson learned . . . be specific.


Thanks for all of your posts . . . there was some real good advise.


Did I miss anything?

Aqeous
May 27, 2008, 05:41 PM
David Armstrong:

"When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone."


Respectfully, when in a real life CCW event will you have time to do ALL of that? If there was that amount of time I wouldn't be drawing my gun I would just be strolling down the road.


Kragax:

"tell Jesus I said hello."


Not sure what that is pertaining to:confused: but I am pretty sure that Jesus + Guns don't mix.

Dwight55
May 27, 2008, 10:35 PM
Since I am 63, retired, a cardiac patient, with various and sundry other physical limitations:

One knuckle dragging neanderthal who wants to make a federal case about my attested ogling of his female probably doesn't have a leg to stand on anyway, because they usually have Rosy O'Donnell's baby sister with them here in my area, . . . and I ain't interested.

If he presses the issue, . . . I will back away, apologizing, and trying to do my "I'm scared of you" impression as best I can.

BUT, . . . when he gets up to about 15 or so feet, . . . I will have a hand on the butt of my 1911, . . . and any closer, . . . he'll see what the inside of the barrel looks like, . . . and I'll take my chances with the legal ramifications.

If he runs, . . . I'm on my cell, . . . 911, . . . calling it in. If he comes out with a firearm or any serious weapon, . . . I'll be calling a lawyer next.

May God bless,
Dwight

PS: This is the exact type of scenario that makes me take my walks in the woods, . . . or down a township road that has no houses at all, . . . out in the boonies where most knuckle draggers can't even find.

teeroux
May 28, 2008, 12:30 AM
I would draw my piece and if he continued to advance he would be shot.

If he goes to his car the gun will stay trained on him till he leaves.

Then I would call the police and give them the plate of the car along with him and her's description.

TexasSeaRay
May 28, 2008, 01:07 AM
So maybe instead of chasing . . . getting into a better "shooting possition" would be better. You know a clear line of sight that is not necessarily right on top of him . . .

Makes sense . . .

No it doesn't.

Hypothetical situations have more "ifs" in them than Rosie O'Donnel has fleas.

First thing is do not do anything to draw unwanted or unfavorable attention to yourself. All this crap about "being aware of your environment" needs to come with a disclaimer about HOW to be aware of your environment without tipping every neanderthal playground/prison-yard bully off that you're watching them.

We were taught in our military unit to never make direct eye contact with folks when surveying/reconning. Ever "felt" eyes upon you? Bad guys sure as hell do. Bad guys are predators and as such, are much more acutely aware of their surroundings than most others--especially potential prey.

Learn to use your peripheral vision--and not just for possible trouble, but also for possible help, concealment and evasion.

And finally, even if you have the upper hand (ie, a weapon or specialized training/skills), always try to give the idiot trouble-maker a way out in which he can save face. It's called swallowing your ego, but it beats swallowing a stiff sentence from an unsympathetic judge or jury.

Example--

I had a dockworker in Houston get mouthy with me in front of his beer-bellied buddies one day. I was about six months out of the service and looking up a friend from basic training days down on the docks.

Tough guy makes some remark and I ignore him. But some people just gotta push it and don't know when or with who to quit.

Big guy runs up behind me and shoves me from behind. I get up and face him, ready to eat him alive. I see a typical anchor and USN tattoo on the guy's forearm. "You were in the Navy?" I ask him. He nods while calling me a few unflattering names, while turning around and grinning at his buddies.

"So was I," I tell him, rolling up my sleeve and showing him MY tattoo. "Just got out a few months ago."

Tough guy sees my tattoo and instantly recognizes it. His face loses a lot of color and his entire demeanor changes. This was back in the 70's before Hollywood and cable television and their BS myths. The guy takes a step back. "Jesus, man," he starts off. "Sorry, man. I don't want any trouble."

"So you know what's about to happen, don't you?" I tell him.

The guy is just standing there, not saying anything in spite of his butt buddies yelling at him to kick my ass. "Tell you what," I tell him. "Turn around and head right back to your buddies--but go ahead and call me an ******* and whatever else you want. But you better keep walking away while you do it. This way, I won't go to jail and you won't go to the hospital. Deal?"

The guy took the deal and called me a few names while trying to strut back to his buddies, but he just didn't have it in him. He went his way, I went mine. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got arrested.

I also had my Model 66 tucked in my waistband. In Texas, we have disparity of force. Four of them against one of me would've been more than enough justification to use whatever force necessary.

But was it necessary?

Not in this case, it wasn't.

Always be prepared to swallow your ego and do whatever, say whatever to get out of such situations.

Because speaking from experience, once you pull the trigger, you can never call the bullet back. Never forget that.

All so many of these hypothetical situations/scenarios really accomplish is for some folks to bolster up their mindset that shooting is always Option Number One.

And that is rarely the case.

Jeff

threegun
May 28, 2008, 08:03 AM
TexasSeaRay, I admit that I only glanced at most of the posts but I must say that I saw that most folks swallowed pride and retreated as option number 1.

You are dead on however I think more folks than you realize would fire only as a last resort.

David Armstrong
May 28, 2008, 11:14 AM
Get the drop on him.
Assume a defensive posture with your hand on your weapon, but not drawn. Raise a hand and command "STAY BACK, STOP NOW!"
If he doesn't:
Draw your weapon, take one step back, and point it at his heart. Give a command "STAY BACK, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT YOU."
If he doesn't:
When he's about 10 feet away, take him out.

Sorry, I think you get to spend a few years in the slammer with Bubba. Unless I missed something, the BG is in public, on a public walkway, where there is no law prohibiting his presence. Basically all you have is a guy with a big mouth. No weapons, no force actually used, the guy hasn't even touched you, just a lot of jaw-jacking. Sorry, but unless there is something else here you don't get to kill the guy. Being rude and obnoxious is not a capital offense.

David Armstrong
May 28, 2008, 11:19 AM
Respectfully, when in a real life CCW event will you have time to do ALL of that?
You don't have to do all of it. You can turn around and walk away. OR you can just go up the walk of the nearest house. OR you can..... You don't have to just stand there and wait for this guy to get out of the car and get close to you, you already know that there is a strong potential for trouble based on earlier contact.

teeroux
May 28, 2008, 01:25 PM
Well if we are both on my property I am not walking away he can leave or suffer the concequences.

bushidomosquito
May 28, 2008, 02:04 PM
I, for one, have a problem with letting some jerk feed his ego at my expense. If I am armed and someone wants to jump out of a car and threaten me for simply looking at him then, well... where I come from that's called ****ing with the wrong guy. Let him advance and threaten all he likes while you simply stand there and stare him down without a word. If he gets close enough to make you think he's intent on more than just fanning his tail for the hen then it's time to get a grip on your weapon without yet drawing it and say, "I have a very good reason for not being scared of you. Do you need to see it?" If he continues to strut or takes that as a challenge then let him see it. He made threats and no doubt will be making more as he makes his way over to you. In my state that's reason enough to draw if he's big enough to carry them out.

BikerRN
May 28, 2008, 02:34 PM
And finally, even if you have the upper hand (ie, a weapon or specialized training/skills), always try to give the idiot trouble-maker a way out in which he can save face. It's called swallowing your ego, but it beats swallowing a stiff sentence from an unsympathetic judge or jury.

Very true sir. I tip my hat to you. Take care and stay safe.

Biker

Stevie-Ray
May 28, 2008, 02:35 PM
Personally I think that theotherTexasRich has it nailed for pretty much all states. It's how I like to think I'd handle it.

Aqeous
May 28, 2008, 04:45 PM
Guess a can of worms don't die . . . :D


First off: TexasSeaRay that is some darn A+++ advise. Thanks for posting. :)


David Armstrong:

"You don't have to do all of it. You can turn around and walk away. OR you can just go up the walk of the nearest house. OR you can..... You don't have to just stand there and wait for this guy to get out of the car and get close to you, you already know that there is a strong potential for trouble based on earlier contact."

Being that this thread has taken on a life of its own . . . I will begin responding with a greater sense of clarity as oppose to cander.

Any event you can see coming is easily avoided. A car that you have never seen before that comes screeching to a stop carrying an enormous maniac is not something we can prepare for . . . thus why we all carry firearms.

Even though my post was a hypothetical event, I have seen and been through some stuff. And the only other option besides the readiness to fight, is a flight that is so fast and complete that it amounts to dropping everything (puppies included...which is not going to happen) and high tailing it away at full tilt. Then, if you are fast enough, and he has no resolve to chase (or chase you with his car) your safe.

(It should be noted that I am not just making this stuff up either)--[and just to be clear that doesn't mean I was ever chased by a car encase anyone is wondering]


Allot of these scenario's we go over and over more often are not taking into account that there are true maniacs out there. Predators and people that seem to just have no remorse, people that seem to lack a soul. Turing around and walking away is fine if the person is not approaching you, BUT if he is . . . turning and walking is NOT going to end well if someone is coming towards you verbalizing obscenities. (not all of us have navy tattoos LOL! We might be small, old, fat, handicapped . . . who knows. Sometime predators want to save face--but just as often they want to prey on the weak.) And like I said before . . . I really wasn't checking out his girl friend, I just looked and only for a moment. For all I know he was high as a kite. OR as TexasSeaRay said, maybe he was just a predator who felt "eyes upon him." Who knows . . . I really couldn't care less. All I care about is my safety and the safety of my loved ones (puppies included :D)

As for walking to a house: On my roads there are no sidewalks. There are houses spaced by empty lots, and drain off separating the lots from the streets. Walking all away across an empty lot, through the drainage, up the mound to the house, knocking on the door, and waiting for a reply . . . all while a gorilla is closing the distance . . . is not really realistic.

I submit that sometimes we can get lost in scenarios. Its kind of fun sometimes. But there literally are infinite possibilities to any given event. And life rarely imitates what we imagine in our minds . . . If ever.


I like the sound of the tactics that allow for the aggressor to be satisfied and leave. I like that allot actually . . . ;) But when that doesn't happen, being able to turn from sheep to lion in a blink of an eye is a great strategy. I think thats going to be my new staple . . . Thanks Tex . . .:cool:




threegun: ;)

Socrates
May 28, 2008, 04:55 PM
Good stuff here. Let's see. Prior to carrying I wasn't a very nice guy. Guy got out of his car in Santa Cruz, CA, after he cut me off, and came towards me. I got out of the car waited...
He came over, started to say something.
I said, more like snarled,

"Let's fight. I didn't get out of the car to talk."

Shut up, glared, and waited...He figured his odds weren't good, got back in the car, and drove away as fast as he could.
Good move on his part.

Recently some persian guy wouldn't let me into traffic, so I moved in anyway. Didn't have any choice, the lane I was in was blocked by construction.
Went through a signal, then the guy cut me off, by cutting across my lane, and banging into the curb in front of me, blocking the lane, forced me into the curb. He got out. I decided I had a few choices.
One, I could flatten him, end up in jail. Two, I could pepper spray him, still probably end up in jail. Third, I could shoot out his tires, and drive off, but, my car is easily identified, and, end up in jail, with more charges, felonies I'm sure, loose my life as I know it.
Fourth wait till he punches me, then pepper spray and shoot him, more jail. Jump in the car, go up on the curb, and leave him and his rather ugly wife sitting there, and not go to jail... I picked the last one...

So, I guess the real point here is the statement,

"An armed society is a polite society."

Having boxed and done martial arts, I enjoy fighting, when I win, and even sometimes when I loose. Most scumbags don't run up against guys that spend 5 days a week in the gym, and fight professionals for fun. None the less, my teachers would rip me a new one, and then take my head off if they felt I was using their art against their principals.

I suggest that the ultimate martial art is CCW, if you know what you are doing. And, with that art, goes the ultimate responsibility.

So, to answer your question: with a gun, retreat is ALWAYS my first option. Get away from the guy, don't say anything, leave. If corned, fight like a cornered cat. Do whatever you have to do to get away from the guy, and run, watching the entire time. If the guy has a weapon, AND HE POINTS IT AT YOU, or starts to, then shoot him.

Recently 3 kids, drunk, pulled into a liquor store I had stupidly parked in front of, hit my car, and walked into the store, with me watching the entire thing. I tried to take pictures with my cell phone, got the license, but couldn't ID the kids later. The kids ran in the store, jumped back in the car, and drove off. I did not spray them with pepper spray, I did not drop all three of them on the spot, nor did I pull my .357 and shoot them. I did NOT go to jail, either...I did not get sued...either.

Aqeous
May 28, 2008, 05:01 PM
HOLY ROAD RAGE SOCRATES! :p


Wow . . . glade I don't drive with you. :D


Great advise though. Next time I won't post a scenario in such a good mood . . . way to much room for interpretation. ;)

Aqeous
May 28, 2008, 05:07 PM
1.)You're walking on the street. (Near to your home but there is not really much around.)

2.) Your alone.

3.) To the left there is the road, to the right palm trees and underbrush so think if you jumped in you could almost bounce right back (and get cut up in the process.)

4.) A car you haven't seen before comes down the corner road. You look to see who's inside.

5.) Big shaved head dude speaks some obscenities before his car screeches to a halt very near to to you.

6.) He gets out, (more obscenities) and is approaching steadily with a enraged expression.

7.) In your right hand is a leash leading to a 3 month old puppy. At your side is your CCW.



What do YOU do . . .?


Lets here it . . .

threegun
May 28, 2008, 05:16 PM
Sorry, I think you get to spend a few years in the slammer with Bubba. Unless I missed something, the BG is in public, on a public walkway, where there is no law prohibiting his presence. Basically all you have is a guy with a big mouth. No weapons, no force actually used, the guy hasn't even touched you, just a lot of jaw-jacking. Sorry, but unless there is something else here you don't get to kill the guy. Being rude and obnoxious is not a capital offense

"keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you."

BG with the "big mouth" made a threat. He then began to close the distance needed for him to carry out the threat. His body contains the weapons giving him the ability to carry out the threats. So you have intent, ability, and opportunity.

I'm with you on the retreat. I just disagree with your assertion that the BG in this case didn't meet the criteria for being a legal defensive gun usage.

threegun
May 28, 2008, 05:29 PM
To the new scenario I put as much space between me and BG as possible. As long as he is not armed and not closing the distance on me I'm ok. I will run away dragging the dog if necessary. I will also access my CW if being chased but will keep it hidden if he isn't gaining on me. If he begins to gain on me or I'm tiring I will be forced to display my weapon then stop and fire if he continues.

Aqeous
May 28, 2008, 05:39 PM
1 + 2 + 3 sounds good. Who could argue with that . . .


If an approach turns into a full fledged run . . . would it change?

threegun
May 28, 2008, 05:51 PM
For me its all about distance. If I can maintain a safe distance that is. I'm not very fast so I have to be real careful here. I want to leave enough time for the BG to stop the attack at the sight of my gun. If he is at a full run that will require me to show my weapon much earlier.

Avenger11
May 28, 2008, 06:19 PM
There is no such thing as a "completely realistic tactical scenario" PERIOD!!! Scenarios, by definition are not real, complete or tactical!!

Aqeous
May 28, 2008, 06:22 PM
O.K . . . . . . . .:rolleyes:


I'm starting to think there is one in every thread . . .

spacemanspiff
May 28, 2008, 06:35 PM
Been there, done that.

Couldnt make much distance due to snow berms, icy roads, etc.
Though the person was not aggressive, they did set off my spidey senses. As soon as he came too close for comfort, my hand was on the grip of my gun, but i did not present because i saw no weapon.
Had there been a weapon, or the person made threats and behaved aggressively, so that I feared for my safety, I would have drawn down on him.

Come to think of it, I have been followed by someone who wanted a fight. He was able to read my lips enough to see I called him a badname as he tried to goose the gaspedal as I walked in front of his truck. I de-escalated when he tried to get me to go outside the gas station with him, told him there was nothing else left for us to talk about. He left, then I left.

Carrying a gun doesnt mean you can draw on anyone who is mean to you or rubs you the wrong way. It does not give you the license to pull it out whenever you want to look like a tough guy who takes no lip from anybody. Rather it means you have the responsibility to avoid ever having to use it. Exhaust all other options, if they exist.

KingofAttendance
May 29, 2008, 11:39 AM
"passenger seat was an a young unruly-looking sort that you just know has already done some time"

Does anyone else find this extremely biased assumption a bit more than discomforting? :rolleyes:

Aqeous
May 29, 2008, 02:00 PM
"Does anyone else find this extremely biased assumption a bit more than discomforting? "


You must live in a good town. Congratulations, and don't ever move. Mine has went down the crapper in the last ten years . . .

threegun
May 29, 2008, 07:24 PM
KingOA,

Does anyone else find this extremely biased assumption a bit more than discomforting?

Are you suggesting that you don't make judgments based on appearance? How do you identify potential threats?

No I don't find this discomforting but rather enlightening. I believe that Aqeous correctly identified a **** with just a glance. This identification gave him an edge in alertness IMO.

I'm looking for every edge possible in keeping myself and family safe. Political correctness has no place in my self defense. A gang banger type trumps a well dressed clean cut man in my potential threat spectrum.

Besides mom always said that you only get one chance to make a first impression. Don't want folks to assume you are a gang banger then don't dress like one.

mpage
May 29, 2008, 08:52 PM
What about the option of beating the guy's ass?

Aqeous
May 29, 2008, 09:01 PM
Not always possible.

Socrates
May 30, 2008, 03:48 AM
It's late, and this brings up a really funny war story, at least for me. In the late 70's, my friend Charles Halliday was training a super heavyweight, number one ranked Olympic boxer named Mike Dixon. Mike was about 6'2" ate donuts all summer, and still looked like a 235 pound cross between a body builder and Arnold S. at his best Mr. Olympia form, totally ripped, with 6 pack. His record was 35 wins, 0 losses, and 5 DQ's. In free boxing, it was not unusual to get DQed for knocking out the home town favorite. In Hayward, MIke knocked the guy out, and got DQed for hitting the guy as he was falling to the ground, knocked out.

Anything with NCAA or Olympics=corrupt...

So, Mike makes the then to be 80 Olympic team, and, the team is going to England to fight. Mike, being a typical knothead heavyweight, doesn't get on the plane, but, ends up quitting, marrying a very rich white girl, working as a bouncer in her home town in Central Kali, and, finally ends up as a prison guard.

Now, I said all this for this story.
Mike's working as a bouncer, and, he has to kick some white red necks out of the bar. Mike keeps his temper, which for him, was an incredible accomplishment, and, the 5 guys leave, still standing, but calling him the n word, and his family etc.

Knowing MIke, that was incredibly difficult for him to contain his both ability, and rage.

Fast forward, 2: 30 AM, after the bar closes. The 5 drunk white guys have mistaken Mike's professional restraint for some sort of weakness. They think that if they catch him all alone, he's going to wilt, turn into a pansy, and beg for mercy.

They confront him outside the bar, and call him out. He doesn't quite react the way they expect, and, they all sort of have one of those epithanies in life where they realize they totally didn't realize the situation, and, they made a huge mistake. Some how Mike didn't act like a cowering
Muhammed Ali, who, by the way, Mike was near as fast, hit harder, but had shorter arms.

The conversation went something like,
"I think it's time we leave."
Mike said something like,
"It's too late for that."

Given the odds, the weapons the guys had, and the confrontation after work, after the guys had come out of the E.R. they were arrested, and prosecuted. This was a GREAT prosecutor, and, felt that it was in his towns' best interest to put gangs of guys that would assault people after work in jail, even if they have to eat their food out of a straw for 6 months, due to their poor choices...

Mike was a great guy, but, even he had his limits. It was good to hear that for once, the law got the right guys for their crimes.

Charles had a similar situation, and, the judge begrudgingly let him go, given the odds. However, it was REAL close to being another Conair scenario: War vet comes home, gets assaulted by a gang of guys, slaughters them, and breaks them into small pieces, and ends up in
prison for A&B, when in fact, the other guys tried to kill him...

PS:
It might have helped that his in laws pretty much owned the town....

mpage
May 30, 2008, 04:22 AM
marrying a very rich white girl

I don't know why you threw that in, too...

David Armstrong
May 30, 2008, 06:00 PM
And the only other option besides the readiness to fight, is a flight that is so fast and complete that it amounts to dropping everything
Perhaps that is the only option you see, but I see several others. You don't have to run away, walking works just fine.
BUT if he is . . . turning and walking is NOT going to end well if someone is coming towards you verbalizing obscenities.
You don't know that. I've seen plenty of potential fights defused by one guy walking away. And if it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything.
Walking all away across an empty lot, through the drainage, up the mound to the house, knocking on the door, and waiting for a reply . . . all while a gorilla is closing the distance . . . is not really realistic.
Seems a lot more realistic than standing there waiting to start a gunfight.

threegun
May 30, 2008, 06:04 PM
What about the option of beating the guy's ass?

Tobi Keith has a song about my response to this. I'm not as good as I once was. Like everybody before me I'm getting old. My body just can't respond physically as I could years ago. I still have knock out power only I might as well hold up a sign that says "here it comes duck". After a few combo's the sign should be changed to "there it goes" as in my KO power. Besides who's to say that this BG isn't some Tapout prodigy. Heck if Elijah Faber stepped out of the car and challenged you.............you wouldn't back down unless you watched him fight.

My story.........I manage a pawn shop an one of our customers was a mild mannered man about 5'9" maybe 180 built soft (as in not muscular). Occasionally he would be a pain in the butt and I often though how much I would love to belt him one. One day detectives come in to place his pawns on police hold (stolen from his dad) and told me the following story. Mild Mannered BG broke lose before officer #1 could finish cuffing both hands. Beat officer #1 pretty good and took his gun (tossed it and ran). BG hid under a house until a K9 officer was deployed. BG fought the K9 officer and 3 police officers with what the detective described as super human strength.

Had I gone by this guys appearance and chosen to defend myself with my arms and legs I would have been in a world of trouble.

David Armstrong
May 30, 2008, 06:05 PM
I just disagree with your assertion that the BG in this case didn't meet the criteria for being a legal defensive gun usage.
Disagree all you want, but you might want to check with an attorney. Even in Castle Doctrine states simple threats do not justify shooting. There is no weapon, there is no obvious disparity, there isn't even much of an intent. You don't get to shoot people for being a jerk.

Aqeous
May 30, 2008, 07:20 PM
"there is no obvious disparity"

We are imagining things differently. I was after all the one standing there. ;)


But I will ask strait out . . . are you saying that if an approaching aggressor speaking violent profanities is steadily making his way towards you, you are not aloud to draw you gun to make him back off before he over takes you. (be it you standing your ground OR you backing off and running?)

(yes any number of things can happen before he overtakes you. You can run, you can say "I'm your b**** son . . . don't hurt me . . . have a puppy." You can stand you ground and say "Army rangers! You walk onto the wrong street!" but BEFORE he actually jumps on you, are we not aloud to draw our guns???)

TexasSeaRay
May 31, 2008, 03:15 AM
There is no weapon, there is no obvious disparity, there isn't even much of an intent. You don't get to shoot people for being a jerk.

David,

You and I have both worn badges and dealt with this kind of human sewage more times than we probably care to remember.

Did you ever encounter one of these pukes who wasn't armed with some sort of a weapon?

Better than nine out of ten times that I encountered these oxygen thieves, they were armed with not just one weapon, but several.

What's more, after I had them on the ground and secured and was calling in, I'd find out that the guy had priors--lots of them, and was known to local LE as someone in dire need of being measured for a casket.

These same guys always liked to fight and "resist" with us--imagine what they'd do with an ordinary citizen who they thought was both unarmed and unwilling/unable to defend themselves.

I'd have zero problems with the original poster in question drawing down on this guy PROVIDED he was also hitting the 9-1-1 speed dial on his cell phone. And if you're goin to walk in a bad or questionable neighborhood, you damn well better be carrying a cell phone in addition to a weapon.

However, the proverbial Catch-22 is that with scumbags like this, they dare cops and ordinary citizens alike to shoot them, and will often escalate the situation just to call someone's bluff.

Again, I advocate swallowing your ego for as long as you safely can. But if/when the situation denigrates further, well, there is a reason the majority of states passed CCW laws. . . . and being in absolute fear for your well-being and life is at the top of the list.

Jeff

Socrates
May 31, 2008, 03:59 AM
Quote:
marrying a very rich white girl
I don't know why you threw that in, too...

One, I thought she was beautiful, and, Mike was a great guy. Two, I thought it might have been relevant in the local police, and or DA's decision on a course of action. It was a small town, also, it was in an area where few blacks live, and, the cops, and system showed what appears to be absolutely no racism. Kudos to them.
Three: your financial ability to buy the best lawyers in town
ARE a consideration in small town DA's choices.
Fourth: His in-laws owned most of the town...

Aqueous:
I just had a night similar to that. First kid in school walks up behind me, slams his fist into his palm, right behind my
neck, so close I could feel the wind, and walks back to his seat rapping,
"I knocked the O.G. out!!!"

Next was an all-star game between East Oakland and another similar area. One point game, partners didn't call stuff tight enough, so, I ended up with double fouls, double technicals, emptied benches, and police on the floor. To quote the other ref,

"I know how you guys can get down, and, we're shutting it down for anything from here out."

Pepper spray, a stun gun, and a .357 would be my choices for this situation, or, maybe a 45 Super snubbie, but, that's a bit heavy, for running up and down a basketball floor...

For your situation, pepper spray would have been perfect, followed by a stun gun, and, backed by your CCW...

Welcome to my world...

threegun
May 31, 2008, 06:30 AM
Disagree all you want, but you might want to check with an attorney. Even in Castle Doctrine states simple threats do not justify shooting. There is no weapon, there is no obvious disparity, there isn't even much of an intent. You don't get to shoot people for being a jerk.

"keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you."

The guy made a threat........no longer a jerk but an assaulting jerk. The guy is in the process of turning the threat (assault) into a battery.......not just using the public sidewalk. Unless he is directly from the cast of The Wizard of Oz or void of arms he is capable of causing you great bodily harm or death.

I will continue to disagree. Also the Castle Doctrine simply removes then need to retreat. All other criteria for justification are the same.

You want to risk fist fighting with a 20 year old buck go right ahead. Your age and declining physical ability or perhaps a lucky punch by the thug and you are at their mercy. I expected more from someone so tactically savvy. Heck maybe you have a giant S under your suit. I don't though. I certainly don't want my firearm getting into the hands of someone who just beat the crapola out of me.

My fighting days are over. That doesn't mean I can't fight. I'm just realistic in my understanding that I'm on the other side of life's ladder.

I will make every attempt to retreat, diffuse, and avoid the situation. Once I cannot do one of the above I will present my weapon in order to prevent a beating. Once my weapon is exposed to the BG if he continues the attack it can be argued legally that he risked death or great bodily injury and must have been willing to give such.

threegun
May 31, 2008, 06:35 AM
Socrates, Places of nuisance are much different than being alone and out for a walk. I do like the pepper spray option though. I have been looking at the Kimber Guardian for a while now.

Aqeous
May 31, 2008, 07:16 AM
TexasSeaRay +1 :cool:


Socrates: "For your situation, pepper spray would have been perfect, followed by a stun gun, and, backed by your CCW..."


I think I am going to pick up some really good pepper spray. That does actually seem like a good idea. I think it might be a bit easier to justify spraying someone then shooting them in the eyes of the law. (and if not the consequences are far less) And a real + is that if he keeps on maintaining significant violent aggression after he pumped full of a face of hot stuff that will probably help sway a case in favor of the good guy should you have to end up shooting him to. (sometimes the spray don't work . . .)

The reason why I haven't picked some up so far is simple . . . you can get yourself. It may sound a little funny, but I am a wimp when it comes to spicy food (I've got food allergies something fierce too :eek:) I know pepper spray will blind me . . . and I can only imagine what would happen if I started falling into anaphylactic shock to boot because some backwash got into my eyes on a windy day.

Any suggestions on the do's and don't's of pepper spray?


P.S. Socrates: I have been noticing that you spelling my name differently in your posts Aqueous instead of Aqeous are you trying to tell me something :D . . . like maybe I'm a bad speller . . . :p

Spade Cooley
June 2, 2008, 08:31 AM
You could keep your gun in the holster ala Hopalong Cassady and beat the &%$# out of him.

The posture you present to him is most important. If you act freightened this will feed his ego. If you act like you can't wait to shoot him and will enjoy it, this will make him flee in terror which will make him look stupid in the eyes of his girlfriend.

It is highly unlikely that he is going for a weapon because a gun would trump most of them. If he goes for a gun it is time to take cover and start the gun play.

In the end it is best just to let them move on and ignore it. He will be spending a miserable life with that kind of attitude.

threegun
June 2, 2008, 11:51 AM
Better hope a Uriah Faber doesn't get out of the car. You'll be beating the crapola out of the pavement with your skull LOL.

David Armstrong
June 3, 2008, 04:12 PM
We are imagining things differently. I was after all the one standing there.
But you are the one who has to convince a jury that your actions were reasonable. FWIW, most courts have consistently rejected the concept of disparity of force for a one on one encounter barring some very unusual circumstances.
are you saying that if an approaching aggressor speaking violent profanities is steadily making his way towards you, you are not aloud to draw you gun to make him back off before he over takes you.
As a general rule, you don't get to use your gun to threaten someone with deadly force when it is not a deadly force situation.

David Armstrong
June 3, 2008, 04:17 PM
Did you ever encounter one of these pukes who wasn't armed with some sort of a weapon?
Found a lot that carried, found a lot that didn't. But more to the point you don't get to act based on "I thought he probably would have a weapon."
However, the proverbial Catch-22 is that with scumbags like this, they dare cops and ordinary citizens alike to shoot them, and will often escalate the situation just to call someone's bluff.
Exactly. That is why I tend to suggest waiting. At the time, the OP has numerous options available to him. Once he draws and threatens, he has narrowed that range of options down significantly.
But if/when the situation denigrates further, well, there is a reason the majority of states passed CCW laws. . . . and being in absolute fear for your well-being and life is at the top of the list.

No disagreement. But I think that is very different than standing there waiting for the BG to get closer and closer.

David Armstrong
June 3, 2008, 04:29 PM
The guy is in the process of turning the threat (assault) into a battery.......not just using the public sidewalk.
Prove it. The guy is still just mouthing away. No particularly threatening gestures, no weapons, etc. Girlfriend in court: "Your Honor, I don't know why that horrible man shot my boyfriend. He had just gotten out of the car and was going over to apologize for being rude -OR- He had just gotten out of the car to find out why that horrible man kept staring at us and making obscene gestures." etc.
Unless he is directly from the cast of The Wizard of Oz or void of arms he is capable of causing you great bodily harm or death.
Using that criteria you need to start shooting everyone who walks by you and mutters anything bad about you.
Also the Castle Doctrine simply removes then need to retreat. All other criteria for justification are the same.
Exactly. And simple threats (which is all we have here) do not justify lethal force.
You want to risk fist fighting with a 20 year old buck go right ahead.
No, I don't. That is why I turn around and go the other direction. If he chases me and escalates the situation then maybe we will reach the point that lethal force is jsutified and needed.
I expected more from someone so tactically savvy.
Savvy to me indicates trying to avoid a fight when possible.
Once my weapon is exposed to the BG if he continues the attack it can be argued legally that he risked death or great bodily injury and must have been willing to give such.
Uh, no, there is no legal doctrine that supports that conclusion.

Socrates
June 3, 2008, 04:45 PM
Any suggestions on the do's and don't's of pepper spray?

I also get a bit concerned about this issue. One of the companies has a combined pepper/mace/dye gel.http://www.defensedevices.com/mace-gel-pepper-spray.html

This was recommended by a guy at the gunstore. Said he's used it once on a guy with a knife on Bart, and, his mom on a purse snatcher. Worked great both times, and, did not get anyone else. Haven't shot the stuff myself, but, as with CCW, don't really expect to every have to use it.

Use it for jogging, for dogs or maybe fierce cats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4i3jKwpp8k&feature=related
;)

I should use it. I'm really more concerned with a dog, or wild basketball player late at night then anything else.

YOu might think about a bear quality spray, for walking with a dog...

I was thinking about taking my cat for a walk, and, pepper spray would be with me, and probably a steel baton. Come to think of it, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea for such walks as well...http://www.tbotech.com/telescopicbaton.htm

I've got one sort of like it from Martial arts, and it's probably illegal.

http://www.tbotech.com/dogchaser.htm


http://www.tbotech.com/bearspray.htm

Given the situation described, a blast of this stuff would probably do the trick, and, if the guy runs to his car, and you see a gun, you can hit him from distance with it.

littlelikesand
June 3, 2008, 06:02 PM
In this day and age your first line of defense is speed dial 911 on your cell phone. Get the operator on the line and barring a bad connection, service failure or a marginal operator start getting the situation recorded. If you don`t have a cell phone by virtue of too poor or your technically challenged, then your taking a serious chance just going to the corner market (if they have them anymore). Most have cameras in case of an accident or just to get a plate number.

I stopped at a circle K out here in AZ. A scruffy woman walked up to me and said her car was broke so she and her really scruffy boyfriend needed a ride just down the road. As she talked, her partner was circling around my truck behind me. I grabbed my phone and called 911 and made it clear that I was calling 911. I had my concealed carry .44 on my belt and my hand on it as I slowly turned to keep an eye on both of them. They listened to me for a few seconds, jumped in the BROKE car and took off. I had the plate number and announced it to the operator. I received a call from the Sheriff and hour later. They had been stopped and detained on outstandings. I didn`t follow up, but I didn`t have to shoot or bruise myself pounding on anyone.

John "little like sand"

spacemanspiff
June 3, 2008, 06:18 PM
A very similar situation is already under discussion here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296905
My brain is tired at the moment, but if memory serves correctly, this current thread has more responses to NOT use deadly force, and in the above linked thread, there are more response in favor of using deadly force.
I'll check back on it later, maybe tomorrow and see if thats right, if so, what are the differences?

threegun
June 4, 2008, 11:31 AM
Prove it. The guy is still just mouthing away. No particularly threatening gestures, no weapons, etc. Girlfriend in court: "Your Honor, I don't know why that horrible man shot my boyfriend. He had just gotten out of the car and was going over to apologize for being rude -OR- He had just gotten out of the car to find out why that horrible man kept staring at us and making obscene gestures." etc.


"keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you."

Followed by the guy getting out of the car and coming toward you. All the proof I need.

I certainly hope you can fight with the young bucks David. With your thinking pattern in this scenario you are going to need to. BTW Why would you retreat if you didn't consider this guy a threat? He's just coming to apologize right?

Using that criteria you need to start shooting everyone who walks by you and mutters anything bad about you.


It was satire. I used it to explain that unless this BG didn't have the physical ability to defeat you, that they posed a threat of death or great bodily injury. As you are acutely aware in this scenario I said that I would retreat first. That means the BD would have to pursue me after threatening to beat the crap out of me. Thats hardly just "muttering" something bad and walking by.

Exactly. And simple threats (which is all we have here) do not justify lethal force.

Again re read the thread. A threat followed by an action to execute threat. Followed by a chase.

Savvy to me indicates trying to avoid a fight when possible

As most have agreed already.....including me.

Prove it. The guy is still just mouthing away. No particularly threatening gestures, no weapons, etc. Girlfriend in court: "Your Honor, I don't know why that horrible man shot my boyfriend. He had just gotten out of the car and was going over to apologize for being rude -OR- He had just gotten out of the car to find out why that horrible man kept staring at us and making obscene gestures." etc.


Again if this quote doesn't suggest that you are going to wait until punches are thrown I must be reading it wrong. Waiting for escalation is not tactically sound IMO.

Uh, no, there is no legal doctrine that supports that conclusion.

It can and will be argued legally if it was necessary to defend yourself in court. I will instruct my lawyer to use it as a defense in court. I will trust the jury to understand that anyone who is willing to risk death to attack you was themselves willing to kill you.

Aqeous
June 6, 2008, 01:55 PM
Well then . . . when can we draw what we carry?


I am guessing that you are in law enforcement so you probably have a good idea what you are talking about. However, your are making it sound like we can only draw after we are being beaten down. Is that what you are saying?? In your opinion when can we actually draw? Please post a variation of my initial scenario that will include a point when you feel drawing your CCW is a valid option. I would like to discuss it here on this thread.



Socrates: Pepper spray gel . . . never heard of it. Looks like really good stuff though. ;) Seems to me like a face full of sticky gel might really do a number on the BG.

Socrates
June 10, 2008, 12:58 AM
You'll love this: Kali limits the size of the container you can carry.:eek::rolleyes:
So, you want bear spray in the car for gang bangers in LA? You breaking the law...:barf:

Stevie-Ray
June 10, 2008, 11:44 PM
I was thinking about taking my cat for a walk, and, pepper spray would be with me, and probably a steel baton. Come to think of it, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea for such walks as well...http://www.tbotech.com/telescopicbaton.htm

I've got one sort of like it from Martial arts, and it's probably illegal.We used to call those Sipos, and at one time they were legal in Michigan, as were all "batons" which these were classified as. Somewhere along the line they became illegal. Of course, can't have anybody bopping criminals around can we? Why, that would be violent and improper, not to mention infringing on his rights of safe passage, and taking from you what he wants.:rolleyes:

KingofAttendance
June 11, 2008, 11:22 AM
"Are you suggesting that you don't make judgments based on appearance? How do you identify potential threats?

No I don't find this discomforting but rather enlightening. I believe that Aqeous correctly identified a **** with just a glance. This identification gave him an edge in alertness IMO.

I'm looking for every edge possible in keeping myself and family safe. Political correctness has no place in my self defense. A gang banger type trumps a well dressed clean cut man in my potential threat spectrum.

Besides mom always said that you only get one chance to make a first impression. Don't want folks to assume you are a gang banger then don't dress like one."

Threegun, I am suggesting exactly that. I do not make judgements based on apperance because I am a better person than that; I don't judge books by their covers. Some guy was wearing a baggy shirt or a hoodie, he must be a criminal right? Are you so out of touch that you don't realize young people's styles today? I wear hoodies all the time and I'm certainly not an unruly type that you *KNOW* has committed crimes beforehand therefore should be considered a threat. A threat is someone that threatens you, not that looks different.

What your mom says should be of no concern to us, because other moms say different things and nobody's mom is neccesarily 'right'. There are more well dressed criminals than poorly dressed ones. Stop using the term 'gang banger' to refer to anyone that isn't behind on the times.

gvf
June 11, 2008, 12:52 PM
Delete

Hook686
June 13, 2008, 11:46 AM
Prove it. The guy is still just mouthing away. No particularly threatening gestures, no weapons, etc. Girlfriend in court: "Your Honor, I don't know why that horrible man shot my boyfriend. He had just gotten out of the car and was going over to apologize for being rude -OR- He had just gotten out of the car to find out why that horrible man kept staring at us and making obscene gestures." etc.

Again if this quote doesn't suggest that you are going to wait until punches are thrown I must be reading it wrong. Waiting for escalation is not tactically sound IMO.


Interesting, but in California the law seems to me to suggest that a beatdown is to be endured in lieu of drawing a weapon.

3. THE USE OF FIREARMS IN DEFENSE OF LIFE AND PROPERTY

The question of whether use of a firearm is justified for self-defense cannot be reduced to a
simple list of factors. This section is based on the instructions generally given to the jury
in a criminal case where self-defense is claimed and illustrates the general rules regarding
use of firearms in self-defense.

Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body

The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the
attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person
in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit
a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being
accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to
save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime.
Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

Self-Defense Against Assault

It is lawful for a person being assaulted to defend himself or herself from attack if he or she
has reasonable grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that he or she will suffer
bodily injury. In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a
reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent
great bodily injury or death. An assault with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon
in self-defense unless the person being assaulted believes, and a reasonable person in the
same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the assault is likely to inflict great
bodily injury.It is lawful for a person who has grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that great
bodily injury is about to be inflicted upon another to protect the victim from attack. In so
doing, the person may use such force as reasonably necessary to prevent the injury.
Deadly force is only considered reasonable to prevent great bodily injury or death.
NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal
penalties.

Protecting One’s Home

A person may defend his or her home against anyone who attempts to enter in a violent
manner intending violence to any person in the home. The amount of force that may be
California Firearms Laws 2005 31
used in resisting such entry is limited to that which would appear necessary to a reasonable
person in the same or similar circumstances to resist the violent entry. One is not bound to
retreat, even though a retreat might safely be made. One may resist force with force,
increasing it in proportion to the intruder’s persistence and violence, if the circumstances
apparent to the occupant would cause a reasonable person in the same or similar situation
to fear for his or her safety.
The occupant may use a firearm when resisting the intruder’s attempt to commit a forcible
and life-threatening crime against anyone in the home provided that a reasonable person in
the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the intruder intends to commit a
forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there is imminent danger of such crime being
accomplished; and (c) the occupant acts under the belief that use of a firearm is necessary
to save himself or herself or another from death or great bodily injury. Murder, mayhem,
rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his
or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of
death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force
is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully
and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person
using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry had
occurred. Great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury. (Penal
Code § 198.5.)
NOTE: If the presumption is rebutted by contrary evidence, the occupant may be
criminally liable for an unlawful assault or homicide.

I personally do not think it wise to advocate lethal force in a potential fist fight as 'Tactically sound' to be in the best interest of all who read the material on this board.

Socrates
June 18, 2008, 02:25 AM
Hook686:
It's traditional, both in forums and law, to give a link, or cite where the quote you are using came from.

Please link, or cite the statute this came from...

threegun
June 19, 2008, 08:33 AM
King,

Threegun, I am suggesting exactly that. I do not make judgments based on appearance because I am a better person than that; I don't judge books by their covers. Some guy was wearing a baggy shirt or a hoodie, he must be a criminal right? Are you so out of touch that you don't realize young people's styles today? I wear hoodies all the time and I'm certainly not an unruly type that you *KNOW* has committed crimes beforehand therefore should be considered a threat. A threat is someone that threatens you, not that looks different.

For starters, I don't believe you. I don't believe that you are so above the normal human response as to not make mental judgments based on appearance. We are programmed to use looks to judge. That said if you are above us regular folks and don't judge based on looks, you are leaving a precious tactical tool out of your arsenal.

BTW I can and have picked out trouble makers simply by looks. When someone looks like a thug, dresses like a thug, acts (body language) like a thug, guess what they usually are a thug.

I would pay extra attention to a man wearing a motorcycle helmet in a bank or a man poking around my neighborhood at night dressed in black both solely on appearance.

In public I regularly scan the area noting anything I perceive as potential threats. I don't treat these folks any differently other than paying them extra attention.

You can bet though that the way you dress alone will get you extra attention in stores by security, by police on the beat, and by savvy CWP holders on the street. You might not like it but it goes on everyday. It is natural.

Some guy was wearing a baggy shirt or a hoodie, he must be a criminal right?

Nope, He's a guy wearing a baggy shirt and hoodie. Now if you have Mr. baggy shirt and hoodie in a room with a granny, preacher, and a man dressed in a suit, who you gonna give most of your attention to?

*Most of the people I sell guns to who have been robbed or attacked in the past knew they were in trouble before it happened based much on looks. There stories indicate that they sensed the trouble about to come from a distance. I can't remember one saying that the criminal was well dressed or homely looking.

gvf
June 19, 2008, 10:27 AM
Now I am pretty darn sure that I didn't look at him cross eyed . . . I am pretty darn sure all I did was look AT the car to see who was inside because I hadn't seen the vehicle around before. As they round the corner and pass me (being that they had there windows open) I could just barely here him say as he looked right at me "keep looking you **** I will come out there and beat the **** out of you." and his girl friend covered her mouth laughing apparently happy with her choice in boyfriend . . .

I guess years of proper hearing protection at the range as kept my ears in pretty good condition, because even though he said it mostly under his breath , I was still able to here it over the wind and the car engine.

This is silly stuff. This is muttered tough talk. Happens all the time. This is life in the big city. And you want to FANTASIZE about the legality of shooting someone in the BACK, who IN YOUR FANTASY, is RUNNING AWAY from you.

SD is for real - imminent -NOW -- about-to-die - once a in many life-times event, that legally has nothing to do with gun law or guns. It's for everyone. And CCW is merely a waiver against the usual penalty for carrying a gun, and also does not deal with shooting people.

And it is not for anyone based on anything else - no other situation, no other internal bias, fear, opinion, 2nd Amendment stance, hatred of "scum", fear, stance on crime or anything else.

Lastly, violent crime - as it has since the 19th century - continues to lower markedly. And is now at historic low levels. New York, as an example, is the safest largest city in the country, and out of all locales with populations of over 100,000, lies near the bottom in terms of violent crime.


So someone mutters tough-talk. So what. Were we all to shoot each other based on that, half of us would be dead.

The half-victim/half-cowboy attitudes some people have, has "0" to do with Self-Defense - and makes mistakes based on predispositions a real risk since you carry a gun around with you.

Hook686
June 24, 2008, 09:11 PM
2008-06-18 12:25 AM

Socrates wrote:

Hook686:

It's traditional, both in forums and law, to give a link, or cite where the quote you are using came from.

Please link, or cite the statute this came from...


Here is link:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf


p 30-31

Jermtheory
June 24, 2008, 10:49 PM
sorry,i dont come arround this forum too much and i didnt read every post...

but pepper spray is a bad idea imo.ive seen it used on half a dozen or so occasions.

worked out well once or twice...

the other times it either failed to stop the threat and/or affected the person spraying it as much or more than the person being sprayed.

the latter actually happened to me just testing a bottle,even after testing the wind to make sure it was at my back.i dont know if the wind changed or i misjudged or what...but that wasnt even under stress,so no thank you.

if i were to carry a non-lethal...it wouldnt be any type of spray...

Socrates
June 25, 2008, 12:43 AM
OK:
Advantage of gel spray is it doesn't come back at you.

"Interesting, but in California the law seems to me to suggest that a beatdown is to be endured in lieu of drawing a weapon."

Thanks for the cite. Locklear is the AG, and, as such has only power over the Assistant AG's, who are used for trying cases in Supreme Court cases, in Kali. His interpretation of Kali law is much like what you get in law school, an overview of the law. However, you have to go to case law that most closely represents your case to get an idea of what that phrase means:
In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a
reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent
great bodily injury or death. An assault with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon
in self-defense unless the person being assaulted believes, and a reasonable person in the
same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the assault is likely to inflict great
bodily injury.It is lawful for a person who has grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that great
bodily injury is about to be inflicted upon another to protect the victim from attack. In so
doing, the person may use such force as reasonably necessary to prevent the injury.
Deadly force is only considered reasonable to prevent great bodily injury or death.
NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal
penalties.

The situation is the key to the entire issue. If Bernard Geotz had been 40 years older, and kept his mouth shut, it
would have been very difficult to anyone to try him, much less convict him. Law is determined by specific cases, and, the back chair, after the fact quarterbacking of first a police officer, and his crew, then the D.A. and their rebooking D.A., then the D.A. Once filed, and, it's usually got to be real strong for a D.A. to file, or, very high profile, since the D.A. is an elected official, then a judge has to determine if the case has sufficient content to take to trial, according to the laws of California. If he finds it's triable, then a jury or judge trial is picked by the Defense, and, you proceed to trial. Depending on the prior cases that most closely resemble yours, that have gone to the appellate divisions, and the Kali Supreme Court, and, the U.S. Supreme Court if the Kali Supreme Court's decision was appealed to a Federal level, only on an issue based in the Constitution. In other words, Bill Locklears' opinion is a restatement of the Kali Supreme Courts' trial decisions on cases in self-defense. I would suggest a look at the actual case law on the subject.. That said, Locklears' position is elected, and therefore dictates that his public statements serve the public interest, which is non-violence.

Locklear's writing on the Kali self-defense law will only become relevant if it's an accurate reporting of a summary of Kali case law on the subject, and, just as with any other case in law, your circumstances will make the result change. General commentaries on law are nice guidelines, but, you need case law to get a really good idea on where you stand.

Dr. S J.D.

David Armstrong
June 25, 2008, 01:49 PM
Followed by the guy getting out of the car and coming toward you. All the proof I need.
Strangely, the courts seem to need a lot more proof than that. Again, simple threats constitute a misdemeanor (even in Florida). Deadly force is not an appropriate response.
BTW Why would you retreat if you didn't consider this guy a threat?
Because I want to maximize my options both for an immediate response as well as a legal defense. The better question is why wouldn't you retreat if you consider the guy a threat?
Again re read the thread. A threat followed by an action to execute threat. Followed by a chase.
Maybe you are the one that needs to re-read the thread. No chase (OP: "I think I would draw him closer to me (and farther away from the car) as far as I could, and begin telling him to Back off! Back off! much more assertively.") and no action to execute the threat (BG just continues yelling profanity).
Again if this quote doesn't suggest that you are going to wait until punches are thrown I must be reading it wrong. Waiting for escalation is not tactically sound IMO.
As usual, yes, you are reading it wrong, as nowhere in there do I suggest waiting until punches are thrown. As I have to tell you so often, deal with what is said, not what you make up. And your opinion is duly noted, but escalation is not only tactically sound, it is almost required in this situation if you are trying to determine the point at which one uses deadly force.
It can and will be argued legally if it was necessary to defend yourself in court. I will instruct my lawyer to use it as a defense in court.
You can instruct your lawyer all you want to, but unless you can convince the judge there is some legal ground for the claim odds are it will not be allowed. Again, there is no legal support for the idea that "Once my weapon is exposed to the BG if he continues the attack it can be argued legally that he risked death or great bodily injury and must have been willing to give such." Such an action indicates ONLY what you were willing to do, not what the BG was planning on doing.

David Armstrong
June 25, 2008, 02:00 PM
Well then . . . when can we draw what we carry?
Depends on the exact wording of your state law, but as a genereal rule when you REASONABLY feel that you are in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily harm. The key is "reasonable" (can you convince a jury that they would have done what you did). The other big issue is what constitutes "great bodily harm." Just getting in a fight doesn't count. Getting your nose broke probably doesn't count.
I am guessing that you are in law enforcement so you probably have a good idea what you are talking about.
Sort of retired now, but I still teach/train, and I'm a Concealed Handgun Instructor for my state, as well as a few other certs. Plus this is a research area of mine, so I think I'm fairly well read on the subject.
However, your are making it sound like we can only draw after we are being beaten down. Is that what you are saying??
No.
Please post a variation of my initial scenario that will include a point when you feel drawing your CCW is a valid option.
If BG grabs any sort of weapon, or if he chases you when you attempt to flee. Either of those would change the dynamics significantly, IMO. We move away from the "Well, he might..." scena and closer to the "He did this..." area.
Pepper spray gel . . . never heard of it. Looks like really good stuff though.
One of those other certifications I mentioned is that of a pepper spray instructor. IMO the gel is the most restrictive and least useful of the variants. I would recommend a good stream delivery.

threegun
June 25, 2008, 08:21 PM
David as usual your word play has not only myself but a few others feeling that you were suggesting that one would have to wait until punches were thrown to act.

You feel the need to flee in this scenario as do I. The difference is I feel that the threat which caused you to flee is still the same threat if you didn't flee. You indicated that the BG that just threatened you and was now coming at you was not a threat. Yet you would retreat from him. Kinda talking out of both sides here.

The fact is he did make a threat to harm you and was coming at you (completely out of his way). If one was not able to flee, to make a better defense as you put it, the threat remains the same.

Socrates
June 26, 2008, 04:34 AM
Fight like a cornered cat. Do everything you can to get away, then tear the holy heck out of him if he corners you, or won't let you get away.

David, which is your favorite pepper spray, and why?

I like the gel because sometimes we take BART, or are in confined areas with lots of people around. Also, when we walk the cat, it's usually windy. Any help here would be good.

Thank you.

David Armstrong
June 27, 2008, 05:43 PM
David as usual your word play has not only myself but a few others feeling that you were suggesting that one would have to wait until punches were thrown to act.
And as usual if you will deal with what is actually said instead of what you feel is being said, or what you think is being suggested, one will be better off. Using words precisely and expecting them to be considered as they are said is not word play.
You feel the need to flee in this scenario as do I.
No, I don't feel the need to flee. It is an option that is available, and I think that a controlled retreat from the scene gives improved dynamics should a self-defense situation arise.
You indicated that the BG that just threatened you and was now coming at you was not a threat. Yet you would retreat from him. Kinda talking out of both sides here.
Nonsense. You can (and probably should) retreat from a number of things that are not immediate threats. Such withdraw can serve to either defuse the situation or help you identify an actual threat to you, at the very least.
If one was not able to flee, to make a better defense as you put it, the threat remains the same.
And if gas was $.25 we wouldn't be griping about prices. What is the "IF" nonsense? Why is it that you seem totally incapable of discussing things as they are actually presented? Yes, the threat is the same--a verbal encounter at the misdemeanor level. You don't get to draw your gun and shoot people for that.

David Armstrong
June 27, 2008, 05:47 PM
David, which is your favorite pepper spray, and why?
I like the Fox brand with the spray delivery. It provides a good all-around type of delivery that you can use for precise shots or wide area dispersion.

threegun
July 9, 2008, 08:52 PM
David,

And if gas was $.25 we wouldn't be griping about prices. What is the "IF" nonsense? Why is it that you seem totally incapable of discussing things as they are actually presented? Yes, the threat is the same--a verbal encounter at the misdemeanor level. You don't get to draw your gun and shoot people for that.

Now please show me were I said that I would shoot someone for that.

Striker071
July 10, 2008, 12:00 AM
OK this thread has changed about 4 times... but here is my 2 cents.

1 Avoid the confrontation all together- If the car stops just turn around and go the other direction. Dont run but change your direction.

2 If you cant do option 1 then put something .. a mail box post, a bush a tree anything in between you and the person coming at you.

3 Make some noise.. draw attention to the situation so other people can get involved and be witnesses. Most people dont want an audience so they can get caught up later.

4 Ask the person to leave you alone.... then tell .... then give an order.. you can gauge your persons intent by that. If they keep coming then its time for you to act.

5 There is what some people call the 21 foot rule... average time it takes a person to cross that distance is about 2 seconds. Keep a person farther away than that.

6 De-escalate de-escalate... de-escalate.... do whatever it takes to make the situation go away without violence and injury to you or the person coming at you.

7 Your sidearm is your last option.... and should be treated as such... your best weapon is your head and your wits and should be considered a more viable option at all times. I believe that a person carrying a CCW has to do it better than everyone else. Has to be more level headed and more responsible and if they arent they shouldnt have a CCW to begin with.

Your CCW is a final solution... final.... Having to live with a decision that you may have to carry around with you for the rest of your life can be hard at times. I am not talking about the legal stuff... the deep in your head stuff.

Good Luck and be safe

David Armstrong
July 10, 2008, 11:09 AM
Now please show me were I said that I would shoot someone for that.
Since that is the question at hand (would deadly force be appropriate) and you have advocated the use of firearms in this situation, your advocacy is apparent. For example, let's look at just a few quotes from you on the topic:

"I would turn around and leave. If he tries to pursue me I run. If he is gaining on me or I'm getting fatigued I draw and confront while retreating. If he continues to move in on me I now have no choice but to fire."

"BG with the "big mouth" made a threat. He then began to close the distance needed for him to carry out the threat. His body contains the weapons giving him the ability to carry out the threats. So you have intent, ability, and opportunity.
I'm with you on the retreat. I just disagree with your assertion that the BG in this case didn't meet the criteria for being a legal defensive gun usage."

"If he begins to gain on me or I'm tiring I will be forced to display my weapon then stop and fire if he continues."

"It can and will be argued legally if it was necessary to defend yourself in court. I will instruct my lawyer to use it as a defense in court. I will trust the jury to understand that anyone who is willing to risk death to attack you was themselves willing to kill you."

If, however, you now wish to change your position and agree that in this situation we have no justification for deadly force, feel free to do so. Again, just verbally threatening you, or even following you cussing at you, are still misdemeanors. You can't threaten the BG with a gun and threaten/use deadly force for a misdemeanor. That is what most have been saying all along, and you have been disagreeing with it.

Socrates
July 11, 2008, 04:18 PM
I think the standard, at least in our state, is if you reasonably believe your life is endangered. So, you have to convince 12 folks, doing monday morning quarterbacking, that the threat was enough to make you in fear for your life. Depending on your physical condition, and that of the bad guy, you may, or may not be justified in using deadly force.

If the guy getting out of the car is a Hell's Angel, and he's wearing colors, or some other group that you know of that will fight to the death, and requires all other members present to join in the fight, once it's started, the situation maybe easier to sell then your average thug. Physical size can have a big part in it as well.

Another factor can be the mental state of the attacker. Seems to be a sympathy point if you are attacked by someone that's mentally challenged. I think there is a case where a jury convicted a 56 year old teacher in Arizona, who, when charged by a mentally retarded
guy, probably with intent to do serious harm, and shot him.

I have a hard time with this, since 40% of the crimes in San Francisco are by homeless people, people that are really in need of homes, and, about 90% of those never go to court, or actually higher. I also tried to keep in jail a retarded guy that was fine on meds, but, when off, shot a police dog, killed it, and shot a couple officers. Kali law put him up for a half way house in less then 6 years.

On the otherhand, I guess it's ok for a homeless guy to walk up to my 5'2" 105 pound girlfriend, punch her in the face on 7th street, right next to the Court building, and, get away with it...

jabineer
July 11, 2008, 07:44 PM
I study self defense from a retired CSI dude who is as deadly as there is on two legs. Based on scientific analysis of crime scenes, he says the number one reason for escalation of an event that ends in homicide or life changing injury is machismo.

His first rule of self defense is to run. Too many good men and women are dead, vegetables or in lock up for way too many years because they didn't check their ego. Is my family's meal ticket and welfare worth less than getting my ego bruised? I think not.

So, relative to this scenario, I would assume a wuss posture, profusely beg for forgiveness and exit stage right.

If and only if I could not retreat then I would immediately attack the attacker with maniacal ferocity until an escape route is open and then flee.

If and only if I could not retreat and he raised the stakes by displaying or appearing about to display a weapon that would give me the feeling that I was in imminent danger of my life would I draw and fire COM as I make myself as small a target profile as possible until the threat is stopped.

Then I would wait for the cops at a reasonable distance to not disturb the crime scene, call the gun lawyer's number I carry in my mobile and politely keep my mug shut until I talked to him.

In case any of y'all want some of the training I am getting, you can find it at http://www.attackproof.com