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Super-Dave
May 21, 2008, 07:33 AM
Is it unethical and immoral to hunt game for sport and not for the use of the carcass?

I have always been taught that hunting is fine as long as you eat the kill or if you desperately need the skin to survive the cold. The only other legitimate reasons would be to protect your self from an animal or to kill it to put it out of its missery.

Is this stupid to have been taught this and believe this?

My dilema is my friend wants us to go hunting for sport. He does not want the carcuss nor does he plan on eating it. I too am not going to be using the carcuss.

Now normaly I would never go on such a hunt because to me it is immoral.

The problem is that it is a hunt for ferral hogs, which in my state is classified as a nussance animal and there are basically very little if any restrictions on killing hogs. I have gone hog hunting before but I actually sliced and diced the carcus and put it in my freezer. I no longer have a freezer.

Where we are going, hunting is on foot in a vast area that might take 5 hours to get back to our cars. I know ferral hog will spoil after 3 hours so dragging it back to the car and throwing it in a cooler won't work.


Being that this game is a "nussance animal" Is it ok for me to hunt for sport and leave the carcus for the buzzards?

dustoff
May 21, 2008, 07:57 AM
Everybody has a different view of what is moral and ethical, you need to do what you feel is right. I personally would not kill the hog and leave it lay. I would probably try to hunt closer to the car or find a way to cool the carcas for the trip back to the car. With that said if it is legal in your state to leave the animal and you are ok with doing so then go ahaed and have your fun. If it really troubles you to leave the animal lay go on the trip anyway but arm yourself with a good camera instead.

SilentHitz
May 21, 2008, 08:11 AM
If I'm not going to eat it, I don't shoot it...just the way I was raised.

Being attacked is a different story, I will shoot to avoid injury or death. I've seen too many animals in the woods that were just shot and left there, just because someone wanted to kill something...to me a total waste:barf:

I agree, if you want to go on the trip, take a camera and try to get some good wildlife shots.:cool:

Art Eatman
May 21, 2008, 08:31 AM
Feral hogs? Think of yourself as an EOD guy dealing with four-legged IEDs. You're merely disarming a destructive device.

And recycling by feeding coyotes and buzzards.

Feral hogs are about the only edible animal of the US about which I have no real positive ethical view. They are destructive pests. They tear up pastures and destroy crops. As omnivores, they're known to kill and eat lambs and kids--as well as quail nests.

I could work myself into a real rant about the danged things, but I'll quit now.

Doyle
May 21, 2008, 08:40 AM
We frequently shoot large boars with no intention of eating them. Depending on how much testosterone has been flowing through that boar, the meat can range from mildly unpleasant to downright nasty smelling. However, filling the freezer is not the intent here - getting rid of the problem is the intention.

That being said, small boars (generally less than about 100lbs) and any sows are always carved up for the freezer. We won't waste good meat. Not having a freezer would mean that I would try to find someone else who needed the meat.

In the case you are mentioning, I personally would want to find some way of getting any "edible" pig out of the woods but wouldn't feel bad at all for leaving a boar for the buzzards. Have you thought about one of the game hauler carts? We have a home-made one that works great.

deanadell
May 21, 2008, 09:20 AM
Go thin the herd and feel no remorse..............there should be a bounty on those things.....

Kreyzhorse
May 21, 2008, 09:22 AM
I have a real hard time shooting something for sport only. What I shoot, I eat. Hogs however are a destructive, quick breeding pest. If I'm not mistaken, in a lot of states with those critters have an open season year round. Their population certainly needs controlled.

While I ethically don't have an issue if you shot hogs and leave them for eco-system to eat, I'm not sure that I could do it myself.

davlandrum
May 21, 2008, 10:48 AM
I don't think people eat the coyotes they shoot :barf:

So there are other things that you can hunt and not eat, without feeling guilty.

Pigs are way more destructive than coyotes and don't have any redeeming qualities. But they are fun to hunt :D

I would try and think of a solution to getting some meat out of the deal, but that is me. If a friend had a serious hog problem and my freezer was full, I would help them out. Not an issue here in Oregon, yet...

Super-Dave
May 21, 2008, 11:04 AM
This is a moral dilema for me.

Just the other day I caught a rat in my house and could have let it go, but instead I whacked him with a shovel 3 times and he died. Now I did not release the rat because I know he would return and continue to breed and bring in other rats. So I whacked him.

Now I had no guilt what so ever about whacking this rat for the mere fact that he exists and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now if I take it up to a larger species of animal and whacked something bigger, like a dog or cat. I would feel remose. I would not shot and kill a dog that constantly dug through my garbage. I would shoot him with rubber buck shot from a shotgun and scare him away for good.


Now suppose I am hunting for hog, rabbit, bambi or even a panda bear. If I hunt it and kill it for sport and leave the carcus is it any different than killing the rat in my house for the mere fact that he exists and was in the wrong spot?

.

SilentHitz
May 21, 2008, 11:09 AM
I don't think people eat the coyotes they shoot True, that's why I don't hunt them either, but if they're tearing up your land or killing livestock, I have no problem with people who want to hunt them...I just prefer not to.

Know some farmers who shoot a deer and leave it in the soybean field( it's legal) to keep other deer from ruining half their crop. It does seem to have a deterrent factor for the other deer...guess I would think twice about getting some goodies from a garden, if there was a dead body already there too. :eek:

SilentHitz
May 21, 2008, 11:15 AM
Now suppose I am hunting for hog, rabbit, bambi or even a panda bear. If I hunt it and kill it for sport and leave the carcus is it any different than killing the rat in my house for the mere fact that he exists and was in the wrong spot?
Personally, I think so...a rat is just a disease carrying thing in your house, the others aren't inside your home. JMHO

Super-Dave
May 21, 2008, 11:37 AM
Now I do completely believe it is immoral to hunt and kill an animal just for a trophy. That is to kill it to have it stuffed or to skin it and hang the skin on the wall.

Now, to kill an animal and leave the carcass so the buzzards can eat it is a different situation and makes me question if this is ethical or not.

hogdogs
May 21, 2008, 11:45 AM
I did pest control as a career for many years. I killed everything vile from A to Z as long as it was smaller than a rat...
Than I became a "Nuisance Wildlife Trapper" in Florida so I could garner better hunting grounds for hogs. You would be amazed at some of the details...
Some of what I could hunt was... hogs, non venomous snakes, possums, armadillo, coons (if damaging structure), squirrel (also if damaging structure), muscovy duck, mallard duck, ferral domestic cats, ring neck doves and a few other critters. Gators and yotes fell under different permits. I can toss a cat in the trash and not even bat an eye lash... But dang I sure tried hard to find someone needing the pork before I went to empty a trap. A few times they had to go to waste but not from lack of trying. Than they fed gators, yotes and buzzards so I reckon they were not fully "wasted"...
Brent

Pahoo
May 21, 2008, 01:59 PM
Whether you hunt or not, everyone has his personal hunting code of ethics. Even the "Bunny-Huggers" have a personal hunting code. The first rule should be to follow all hunting laws. In this case, you are actually performing a conservation effort. My hunting code dictates that I not only eat what I shoot, but retrieve, clean, cook and store it properly. There are hunters and killers and you have to make the sort. Some states dictate that you shoot a ferral hog. I personally have a problem when I can't find a deer I've shot but have no problem leaving a coyote or hog lay. It will not go to waste like the old meat we throw away out of our freezers. I salute you for asking and having these concerns. Remember that real hunters want to make good clean kills and limit unneeded suffering. Nature makes no such distinction as to how clean or fast. I teach Hunter Safety and one thing that I teach is that it's okay not to kill an anmial but if you do, you have a resonsibility to do the right thing.

"Do your best, in your own best ways" ;)

Sportdog
May 21, 2008, 03:04 PM
"Buzzards got to eat, same as worms" Outlaw Josey Wales:D Naw, I'm just kidding. We don't have feral hogs around here that I know of but our DNR passed a regulation putting them in the same category as woodchucks, racoons and other non-game species that may be taken at any time. I don't hunt woodchucks but will shoot every coon that I can. They are a menace to bird eggs and they raise h*ll with my farmer neighbors corn. Each of us has our own level comfort level with what we choose to kill and I don't pass judgement on others decisions, and I don't want to hear anything from them on my decisions.;)

Rembrandt
May 21, 2008, 06:31 PM
.....Is it unethical and immoral to hunt game for sport and not for the use of the carcass?...

You're mixing two different issues......ethics and law.

If it's a "game" animal where the state sells a license for harvest, it's not an ethics issue but a legal one. Many states have laws against wanton waste of game animals....in those cases it's illegal.

If the animal does not require a license to harvest, the wanton waste laws would not be applicable. Be mindful of the most recent laws that deal with animal cruelty....what you see as rodent control could be interpreted by an over active prosecutor as animal cruelty. People have been charged with dispatching of feral cats and other critters.

Ethics are the moral choices hunters make that are not regulated by game laws.

rem870hunter
May 21, 2008, 07:18 PM
yes and no. if its a pest like a rat ,mouse ,coyote,groundhog. and it/they were destroying property/livestock i would have no problem. shooting a deer/bear/elk/ moose ,etc just to shoot it and leave it for the critters. is wrong. why bother wasting a bullet on it. unless of course you can tell and or see its not acting right.

but i have yet to see a deer that walking funny with all four legs and foaming at the mouth. but if i did and got a clear shot at it during season i would take it. last thing i need to eat is a rabid animal. i don't know if a critter that eats it will get it or not. hopefully not.

yes if i thought my killed animal will spoil before i get it to my vehicle and cooled off. i wouldn't bother shooting it. why waste a bullet,make a loud noise, only to walk 2 hours back to my truck with a rotting animal that i hoped to eat. its crazy the way it used to happen. people shooting buffalo from slow moving trains and leaving them lay out in the fields for the buzzards to pick at. or shooting them and skinning them just for the hides. why? i think it was done to PO the native americans.

mikenbarb
May 21, 2008, 07:45 PM
I only shoot what I eat unless its a varmint thats inedible(some are edible). I have been raised to hunt ethically and only take what you or someone in need can use. I harvest alot of game for myself and family members that cant hunt anymore and a few oldtimers that "need" the meat because they cant afford to buy alot of meat because of their low income. I have never been a horn or trophy hunter and never will be. The way i was brought up is you dont kill something that you can eat just for the sake of killing it. Yes, I do kill varmints and coyotes because we own an active goat and chicken farm and if I didnt we would be out of business. I know theres different circumstances behind different things but If I went on a hunting trip like that I would try to stay within the limit of getting my game out so it dont go bad. We dont have hogs up north so im not aware of the damage they do. From what I have heard is their pretty destructive. And if you shoot and leave it then you are feeding the coyotes and other varmints that do more damage than the pig. Bring a camera and paintball gun and have a blast(and your rifle). LOL:D We shoot the problem deer in our gardens with a paintball gun and its funny as hell to see them a couple days later with pink and orange splatters all over them. And they learn pretty quick to stay out. Good luck with whatever you choose and post pictures of your hunt.

MeekAndMild
May 21, 2008, 07:45 PM
Wild hogs threaten the health of humans, farm animals and native animals. They carry brucellosis, plague and many varieties of parasites. They destroy plants, soil, ground nesting birds, and mice/voles.

Buzzards have to eat just like everybody else and eating a hog in the woods is a lot safer than eating road kill.

But if you have to eat what you shoot you could just bring an ice chest and harvest the hams from every hog you remove. ;)

Mainah
May 21, 2008, 08:59 PM
Is it ethical to shoot an animal that you don't plan to eat if it's a non-native species that is a threat to native animals? Seems pretty clear cut to me. Who among us wouldn't jump at the chance to hunt pythons and monitor lizards in the everglades with shotguns and bird shot?

Hey... did I just invent something really cool?

JAXX
May 21, 2008, 10:56 PM
Here in Wyoming, it is illegal to shoot an animal (requiring a tag or permit to hunt) and leave it lay. Predatory animals (yotes, coons, jackrabbits, and now WOLVES:D) are a different story all together. And, as far as I'm concerned, if someone is just out for a nice rack to mount on the wall, ebay is just a click away. There are a lot of families out there that could use the meat if someone else doesn't want it. When I hunt, it's all about filling the freezer. I mean, how could anyone not enjoy a tender Elk backstrap cooked over an open flame?

wpcexpert
May 21, 2008, 10:58 PM
Whack'em and let the scavengers have them. There are pleanty out there and they don't have a breeding season. As soon as a litter is weined, the sows can get pregnent again, with another 6-10. All year long.

As far as spoiling, it takes a little longer than 3 hours to spoil. I've had to let some lay, in a South Carolina summer, 5 hours or better before even getting them to the boat.(multiple tracking jobs/dragging) They were just fine. So if you kill a small one, under 50 lbs, field dress and tote it back with you. I like wild hog better than any pork I can buy at the store.

hogdogs
May 22, 2008, 01:20 AM
On my Florida NWP I am allowed to hunt the pythons as well as the others i mentioned.... I just forgot since I am now in the panhandle and they do not survive the winters here.
IMHO I want the animal dead and on ice in under 2 hours. If I cannot assure myself of that I either leave it lay or leave it live.
When I trapped pigs I would keep them alive at home awaiting phone calls from those I had informed I had the pig they requested. I did not dispatch that pig until I had a hand shake from them and they got fresh meat. Pork is easy enuff to taint.
Brent

Sidetracked
May 22, 2008, 02:43 AM
For managed species and big game, I won't hunt unless I have previously made arrangements for all the meat. I can't fit it all (even a small antelope) in my own freezer, so I have to call around and get friends to make room.


However, when it comes to nuisance species...

If I don't plan taking all of it, I don't take any part.
I leave them where they fall. Mother nature takes care of the rest.

JohnKSa
May 22, 2008, 02:52 AM
In my opinion, this would qualify as pest control or varmint hunting. In the same way people don't eat or otherwise use the crows they kill, the mice they catch in a trap, the feral cats they shoot, the cockroaches they poison, I would say that it's fine to destroy (as opposed to harvest) destructive species, particularly those that are not native.

Of course, that's as long as it's legal and when there are good reasons or extenuating circumstances that prevent or severely complicate the harvesting of the carcass.

Super-Dave
May 22, 2008, 07:07 AM
Now not looking at it legaly but moraly,

What is the moral difference in shooting a hog and leaving it for the buzzards or shooting bambi and leaving it for the buzzards?

Both animals you can eat. Both animals are very rarely a threat to your safety. Both make cute pets. And in many cases some of the hogs are bigger than stags. (Hogzilla) http://www.flickr.com/photos/bunnyscotch/514869451/

.

mikenbarb
May 22, 2008, 07:48 AM
SUPER-DAVE, There is no difference in either. Its a living big game animal that you can eat the meat of. Until your state lists them under a varmint catagory then you should follow all rules and moral standards that apply. Its up to you to make the decision of what to do but I would try to stay within reason of getting the hog out to butcher and fill the freezer with some nice loins and chops. If you dont eat or want it im sure someone you know would be happy with a few packs of meat. Another question, Would you be able to bring some instant ice packs and roll foam for keeping the meat cool? Those things dont weigh alot and would keep the meat from spoiling. You would just have to line a larger pack with the foam, break the ice packs and layer the meat so it cools evenly. Those things may weigh only about 10lbs and put your mind at ease that you didnt make the wrong decision. Good luck, Mike

Gbro
May 22, 2008, 11:20 AM
Hogdogs, you posted;
Some of what I could hunt was...mallard duck

Could you explain that?

hogdogs
May 22, 2008, 12:07 PM
GBRO, Florida recognizes Mallard ducks that stay as invasive ... year round mallards are naughty little buggers....
http://askit.myfwc.com/cgi-bin/myfwc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2067&p_created=1144274425&p_sid=mOAhEn4j&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MjgmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9bWFsbGFyZCBkdWNr&p_li=&p_topview=1
It is a crime to feed them (including your own on your own pond)... if they move off your yard they are fair game!
Brent

hogdogs
May 22, 2008, 12:38 PM
As ya'll read the following please remember I asked these things of "momma" when I was but a 4 or 5 year old boy at first than I got more curious as I got a bit older. I am not in any way holier than thou...
So where does the line lie? What is okay to kill for sport and what ain't? We know it ain't okay to hunt humans but they are the only animal able to rationalize. deer don't harm us but do feed us.... But why swat a bug? Most don't inflict pain nor spread disease but pretty much all bugs are killed wantonly by humans. Where do we decide? The laws give us rights and restrictions.
So I leave it up to each and every individual.... it is a very personal decision... so long as we don't break the law....
Brent

Yithian
May 22, 2008, 05:03 PM
Hunting is a sport.
Ethical hunting is debateable for each instance involved.
There is no set standard of what is ethical, and what isn't.

If you, as a hunter, have issues with your decisions to hunt, don't repeat your 'mistakes', or stop hunting.
It wouldn't be a Sport if there was no risk of failure.

And remember; what you think is unethical, could be just the opposite to another person.

Wyldman
May 22, 2008, 05:33 PM
If it is a game animal, I DO NOT hunt it unless I am going to eat it. As far as "nuisance" animals, I guess that would depend on what the definition of a nuisance or pest/vermin animal is. Wild hogs are usually good eating in my experience however, they are problematic and can be extremely dangerous. I also, would say that this is a personal judgment call unless the animal is protected by law.

Nnobby45
May 22, 2008, 08:36 PM
If I'm not going to eat it, I don't shoot it...just the way I was raised.


It's not always possible for an avid hunter to fill an elk and deer tag and eat all that meat--- along with quail, chukar, sage grouse, and plenty of waterfowl, etc. I was raised to hunt. Not stop and eat it all before I went out again.

All game was properly processed for consumption, and that not eaten given to those who appreciated it. Unlike gamefish taken by the fly rod than can be released to fight another day.


Meat hunting and sport hunting are equally honorable pursuits, in my opinion, but quite different---though it's certainly possible to accomplish both at the same time.

mellow_c
May 23, 2008, 03:25 AM
We all love Native Americans, Right?

Just ask your self this.... What would they do?



And there you have it:)

TheNatureBoy
May 23, 2008, 05:05 AM
In my personal opinion yes it is unethical and immoral to kill a animal if you don't intend to eat it. Again I say that is my personal opinion and I don't attempt to impose it on others. I have over the years passed on many deer and turkeys because they were out of season or the rules stipulated that you could only harvest a particular sex.

Yithian
May 23, 2008, 01:33 PM
What would Native American have done with a feral pig problem?

If I kill 5 pigs, one was a sow with piglets.
Six piglets got away, orphaned.
I only intend on eating one pig.
It is going in the freezer with the deer, and fish.
Am I a unethical hunter?

Would I still be a bad hunter if I had bobcat meat in my freezer as well?
What about that coyote, or fox I killed?
Various rabbits and armadillos?

No?
Yes?

I follow the laws provided unto me.
Those laws are in place because of ethics.
If it is legal, it is fair game.
If I want it for food, I will take it. (bobcat backstraps)
If I don't want it, I leave it for the buzzards. (fox: of which I have its tail and face; and coyote's)

If you have an ethics issue with me, try and pass new laws and/or join PETA.
Until otherwise told, I will continue to enjoy hunting, killing, population controlling, and eating.
This includes my taking of trophys, as I see fit, within the law.

I'm no 'shoot it cause I see it', hunter.
Many tasty animals have passed my bore because I was hunting other prey. Far more than I actually shoot.
It is a sport, after all.

May your hunts be as enjoyable as mine. (salut' to ATTT)

Yithian
May 23, 2008, 01:49 PM
As far as ethics....

Here is a question.

I have a land owner asking me to come and take care of his mountain lion problem, near Abilene.
The mountain lions, about five of them to date, love feral pigs.
If I were to kill off a serious percentage of the population of lions in that natural funnel, feral pigs would find their way into Abilene.
On his property, about 20 miles south of town, hunting both animals is legal. .
In Abilene, firing even a pellet rifle is illegal.
Would it be unethical of me to hunt the lions?

There are two sides of this.
I can take trophy's and meat now, and possibly force hunting of pigs within Abilene upon its citizens.
Or, I can leave the status quo as is, and let this fearful family deal with the lions on their own.

I have yet to decide.
But I am thinking of hunting lions. :rolleyes:
Trophy's now, and pig meat later.
Both positives, from my selfish standpoint.

SPUSCG
May 23, 2008, 03:41 PM
cyotes are a problem in maine, especially when there so overpopulated theres unlimited bag year round and they walk around cities at night........kill them all day and how would you use cyote pelts anyway?

mikenbarb
May 23, 2008, 03:52 PM
Lets not all get stupid now. Hunting in the old days was a way to feed yourself and family and still should be. I dont think I have ever seen a section in the hunters education test or booklets that tell you to leave the animals you kill to rot. I think our forefathers would roll in their graves if they knew people are shooting game animals for the "sport" of it that they at one time survived and depended on. I for one cant believe that any ethical hunter would shoot an edible game animal without eating it. It dont matter if their destructive or not. What about all the deer that live in cities that dont allow hunting, Should we shoot and let them rot also??? They are in the same place of hogs with being destructive and eating themselfs out of house and home. I just cant believe what im hearing from hunters in this thread. Is everyone a hunter posting in this thread or are you a Tacticool guy that is offering an opinion? I think every ethical hunter that holds his head high should think of whats being said here of shooting and leaving a big game animal to rot. It dont matter if their a pain in the neck or not, Its still an animal that every hunter should respect the life they give up to put meat on our tables. Im DONE with this and your the ones that have to live with your decisions. And I can feel good about my ethics being passed down to the next generation of hunters that I teach.(including my children that love pork)

lamarr
May 23, 2008, 06:53 PM
I just got in from a spring squirrel hunt. Great day in the field. After carrying the one I was lucky enough to drop around in the woods for 2-3 hours, he smelled like fresh ass when I got him home. :barf:Eat that? Nope. Do I feel bad? Nope. Will I go out tomorrow? Yep. Will I bother to lug them around in the heat? Doubtful unless I meet someone else who would want to deal with them. Bottom line is TWRA says we need a spring hunt to control population so I will do my part and it's way better than being at work!

Nnobby45
May 23, 2008, 07:20 PM
In my personal opinion yes it is unethical and immoral to kill a animal if you don't intend to eat it. Again I say that is my personal opinion and I don't attempt to impose it on others.....

Well, you are imposing that on others by your judgement if you consider us immoral because we like to hunt so much that we have an abundance of game THAT WE CAN'T EAT ALL OF , but GIVE TO OTHERS TO EAT who, in my experience, have always greatly appreciated it, and in some cases, sorely needed it.

Also, hope you don't consider it immoral to thin out the pest population.:cool:

Maybe you didn't really mean it that way and you can clarify.

Yithian
May 23, 2008, 07:32 PM
Hunting is a sport.
Ethical hunting is debatable for each instance involved.
There is no set standard of what is ethical, and what isn't.

If you, as a hunter, have issues with your decisions to hunt, don't repeat your 'mistakes', or stop hunting.
It wouldn't be a Sport if there was no risk of failure.

And remember; what you think is unethical, could be just the opposite to another person.

What's going on in Texas? (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295120)

If you can M'n'B, come down and help us out.
Our freezers are full.
Our friends freezers are near full too.
We try to donate every pig we don't want, but the room to store them is depleting.
We are not going to let them breed and multiply freely.
The only respite they get is during deer season.

Next time we go out, next week prob, I will take pictures of the damage to property and fencing.
The issue here is not something ethics can fix.

As far as my question of the mountain lions, yes, you can bet I will take some meat from them.
But the freezer here is already crammed with pork and some deer, and all my friends think it is disgusting to think of eating cats.
That family with the lions on their property is afraid. They have two kinds of wild animals frequenting their property that can kill people.

bushidomosquito
May 23, 2008, 07:36 PM
Your state conservation department sets the minimum level of hunting ethics for you. Anything beyond that is up to you.

Dearhunter61
May 23, 2008, 09:33 PM
I love to Squirrel hunt...but I simply can not eat them any more. Tried more ways than I can count to prepare the meat and cook them in a way that is edible. Perhaps the fact that when I have hunted them in the past it was in the piney woods of E Texas. Maybe it was the Terpintine from all the pine seed they eat...not sure. But what I do know is that since I can not eat them I do not hunt them anymore. Sitting out in the woods the last few years deer hunting it was amazing how many squirrels I would see and the desire to hunt them has been amazing. But again I am not going to eat them so I choose not to hunt them. But if they were causing me problems around my house I would not think twice about eliminating them. I feel the same way about hogs. If they are destroying someones property and he asked me if I would help him with the control of these because they were destroying his property then I do not think I would have an issue killing a hog and leaving it lay. But short of one of these issues I simply can not bring myself to kill an animal just to kill it.

I live in Texas and hogs here multiply like crazy. The sows can give birth an average of 2 and a half times a year with litters of 6-10 if I have heard correctly. They are destroying land and need to be controlled. As far as eating them...if they are small and would be good to eat of course I would eat them. If I was not going to eat them I would try to find someone that needed the meat and give it to them. But even if I could not do that I would still be willing to kill hogs to control/reduce the population.

As far as predators they are just that and need to be controlled as well.

Trophy hunting...I do enjoy and try to get a deer every year that has a bigger rack than any I have taken up to that point. Do I eat the meat? Absolutely! And it would not matter if it had a small rack or a large rack. Does that mean I am unethical or do not have morals just because I want a deer with a large rack? I do not think so. Just the same the lease I am going to be hunting on this year mandates you take a doe before you take your buck. I am struggling with this a little. Not because I do not eat the meat. But because with it being only me and my wife we usually eat the one deer I take a year and that is all. I am concerned about the meat going to waste so I am looking for a place that can use the meat.

I was raised not to shoot and or kill an animal unless you intend to eat it or it was destroying your property. I like to think I honor that upbringing and will and do pass it on.

If you are assisting a land owner with population control of hogs go have fun. If there is a way to preserve the meat I think you need to do so but if not do not worry about it. They are a problem and we need to control them. At least here in Texas.

mikenbarb
May 23, 2008, 10:31 PM
I would like to point one thing out. Super-Dave stated that he may be up to 5 hours away from his vehicle in a vast area. In my world, Thats quite a few miles into the woods. Is a Hog that lives that deep in the woods realy a threat to some farmers fence or a homeowners garden??? I dont think any pig will walk 5 hours to rip up a fence or schrubery. So is it realy etical to walk for 5 hours to kill something to let it rot that has proably never come close to a fence or garden???? I think were getting off point of how far in the woods this hunt may take place and everyone is thinking its gonna be in their back yard.

Nnobby45
May 24, 2008, 01:32 AM
I would like to point one thing out. Super-Dave stated that he may be up to 5 hours away from his vehicle in a vast area. In my world, Thats quite a few miles into the woods. Is a Hog that lives that deep in the woods realy a threat to some

You don't have to be "deep in the woods" to be 5 hours from your vehicle. One could easily be hunting next to fenced land the whole distance.

fbrown333@suddenlink
May 24, 2008, 03:17 AM
In some states they have what is called hunters for the hungry. You can donate your kill to them. Problem solved, no ethics problem then. just my .05

shortwave
May 24, 2008, 06:12 AM
i and my siblings were raised to not kill it unless to eat it. exceptions being rodents destroying crop lands. that being said, my 12 yr. old nephew, which is a hunting machine, cannot eat meat as the result of PKU , which is a medical condition. we`ve had several conversations about hunting ethics and i`m very proud to say that he will not shoot something unless he`s made arrangement for someone to eat it. i mself do a lot of trophy hunting. the meat will always be eaten. to you guys out west with pig problem. we don`t have that here but watch alot of shows on massive distruction the pigs cause. isn`t there some kinda shelter or state funded org. that will take meat to feed people. if not, i`d sure want to know why if i lived there , as part of your tax $`s goes towards feeding less fortunate. we have crop damage permits here to let farmers shoot deer and they can keep meat or donate to feed the hungry.IMO, seems thats better than letting it go to waste.

hogdogs
May 24, 2008, 11:58 AM
A little hog biology will help a few out. They can and do travel many miles over the course of a week. They are often in separated packs. The boars will often be run off from the sows and little ones.
To be 5 hours from my truck is quite possible and I may have never been more than 20 yards from a crop. Due to excessively wet/dry weather I may not get to drive to the kill.
I have left a few pigs in the woods but try not to. It ain't about morals or ethics it is more important... I don't want the hunt gods to poop in my freezer. I don't break fishing rules cuz I don't want the fish gods crapping in there either...:o:D
Now I do insist that running hog dogs be it for fun or to help out a land owner is a "SPORT" and an EXTREME one too... But I do not liken it to "sport hunting" as referring to deer or other game. The hunt is an ambition but the dead animal is the trophy... In hog doggin' the removal of a pest is a trophy but so is getting it done without too much damage to dogs or injury to us humans.
I have no experience as a trophy hunter of any other game animals. If junior don't want the small game I hunt than it goes to dogs as a treat...
Brent

RedneckFur
May 24, 2008, 12:21 PM
I belive in eating/using what you kill. Hunting for sport is ok if you plan to use the meat from your trophy, but I have no respect at all for those who hunt only for antlers or a head to hang on the wall. Im my mind, hunters who hunt for sport only are only slightly higher than those who fight dogs for sport.

SPUSCG
May 24, 2008, 12:58 PM
ummm i dont thinking eating cyotes sounds that good.......isnt there some animals that should just be exterminated as pests?

Nnobby45
May 24, 2008, 08:58 PM
I belive in eating/using what you kill. Hunting for sport is ok if you plan to use the meat from your trophy, but I have no respect at all for those who hunt only for antlers or a head to hang on the wall. Im my mind, hunters who hunt for sport only are only slightly higher than those who fight dogs for sport.

For someone who makes such pungent comments, you could use some education where hunting is concerned.

We don't all live in the same part of the country. For some, deer hunting is about planning ones vacation and envolves quite a trip.

Some can knock off a deer from their front porch at their leisure. That's not hunting. That's selecting meat for the freezer.

I hunt because I can spend days high on a mountain where I can see a town 70 miles away (on a clear day) while looking for a big old buck who's past his prime, bred with his share of the does, and is living a solitary life on borrowed time.

If I'm successful, I'm going to have to make it back to camp, wait for friends, and then spend a full day packing him out while my friends give up a day of hunting time.

I'm not interested in knocking off the first forked horn that comes by. I'm more interested in seeing canyons I haven't visited before, hunting ridges where I haven't been and seeing lots of new country. Finding that big old buck is secondary. If I'm successful, every bit of that meat will be eaten, though not all of it by me.

Getting a little tired of the self righteous meat hunters who want to fill the pot and condemn those who actually enjoy the out of doors and use hunting as a way to do it.

As for the those pure meat hunters who aren't self righteous and condemning of others, I have no quarrel with you.

"Slightly higher than those who fight dogs for sport" ?
I think that falls into the category of the self righteous.:cool:

jneilson
May 24, 2008, 09:10 PM
I'm a meat hunter and I try to be a good steward of this good Earth we live on. Has I see it hogs and coyotes are vermin where I live. If you can use parts of the carcass after killing them, great, if not the worms and buzzards will enjoy the gift you've given them. The Earth doesn't waste anything.

Dearhunter61
May 24, 2008, 09:58 PM
I to think there are a handful of folkes commenting on this thread that seam to be a little self righteous. Until you walk in the shoes of others you should not judge.

If we are speaking strictly of HOGS then you all who are slinging the arrows need to do some research. Just because the hogs are 5 miles away does not mean they are not destructive.

You obviously do not live in Texas and have not experienced the destruction they cause. If you had cattle that have been affected or crops that have been destroyed or what ever else then perhaps you would have a different opinion...maybe not but before you sling arrows you should do a better job researching the topic.

As for those "HUNTERS" who hunt just to kill...I have no use what so ever for them. They give hunters who do hunt with a since of morality and ethics a bad name. :barf:

mikenbarb
May 24, 2008, 10:33 PM
Deerhunter61, Every state in the country has a "problem animal". But does this mean we should have a no holds barred hunt on them?? I think not because every "problem animal has a purpose for what it does. No, I dont live in Texas but have you lived in N.J.and seen the problems we face with our wildlife issues? We have alot of animals out of controll and its going to stay that way like it is with the hogs because we wont ever be able to control the population unless everyone in the state hunted. That being said, I think we should try to be ethical sportsman and women and do our part in respecting the animals we harvest instead of shooting them and letting them rot because they may or may not tear up farmer jones fence. Just think of all the people that would be out of a job if there werent animals trashing stuff. And as far as judging goes, You should not ask advice of others in public what to do if you dont want some comments that you may or may not like. This is the reason people ask questions. To get the response of others that want to reply and state how they feel on the issue at hand. And I also lose alot of livestock every year because of wild animals. So yes, I know this first hand and have done my homework many times over but I still dont kill for the thrill.
Theres too many hungry people around here to waste food and im sure there are down there also..

Dearhunter61
May 24, 2008, 11:51 PM
You obviously only read what you want to read and see what you want to see. No one and most of all me said anything about killing for the thrill of it and in fact if you would read the entire response I made before you would have seen that I in fact addressed this issue. Still most people, I am sure you are not one of these people, would not think twice about stepping on a cockroach, ant, killing a wasp, rat, or some other creature that would potentially do them harm. Now I am sure that if I went to your home you would be entertaining all of the above because to do otherwise would be repulsive.

We obviously see things a little differently. I have no problem if you choose to live the way you do...but to judge others as you have and say they have no ethics or morality because they choose to TRY to remove a troublesome animal and hopefully avoid destruction of their property all because of the ethics you espouse too seems a little much to me. Your response that you/we can never overcome them so we should just stand by and allow them to destroy propery does not make a bit of sense to me.

I wonder about a person who would put their "hunting ethics" above helping a neighbor with a problem with a pest or varmit that destroys his propery. It is obvious your "morality" means more to you than the neighbor.

You and I can I am sure go on and on and on about this and it is very obvious to me that in the end we will be no better off than we are right now. So I say farewell on this issue. I hope and pray you never have to deal with the destruction these or other animals cause because if you can not eat them you will have to move out and find another place to live.:D

Yithian
May 25, 2008, 04:27 AM
I'm not truly concerned about what MnB thinks of me.
They don't understand.
They aren't interested that crops are planted, for livestock feed or otherwise.
They don't understand how little rain we get west of the Mississippi River.
How alkaline the soil is, and full of limestones (some of which are bigger than houses).
How only one third of the land can be economically cleared and leveled for grain.
How uncultured land can support one cow for every ten acres, and planted fields can support one cow for two acres. (providing for water as well)
(NOTE: These numbers are without feral pigs)

They don't understand that the pigs we control still eat up half of the resources. (what would they do if we let them be?)
They ignore that pigs kill and eat livestock as well.
They are unaware that pigs adopt orphans. (killing a sow does not sentence the piglets to starvation)
All of this, and I haven't even discussed the danger to people physically.
Or, a swines reproductive capabilities.
Or even the devastation to native wildlife. (quail, turkey and deer)

I offered to show them first hand, and was ignored.
I will still get pics, but you can see some of it in pics I have posted.

Here is the full story...


(Our Second Pig Mafia) (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2871873#post2871873)

PS. Take a wild guess as to why ATTT has that elevated 'bed' on his truck.

mikenbarb
May 25, 2008, 09:54 AM
Deerhunter, My appology. I should have directed that statement different and it wasnt all directed to you. It was directed to the ones that just shoot and let lay. And I did not say to just stand by and let them do damage, I said we should do it ethically. And as far as destructive animals, I deal with livestock loss every week or month due to issues with wildlife. I try to eliminate the problem and when I do, The meat goes to good use. And I never said I would not help anyone if they had a problem with animal damage. I just stated that I would not let an edible game animal rot. And as far as judging others, I simply stated my ethics and morals and stated how I feel. I stated what my morals are and at no time did I direct towards or accuse a specific person that they had low morals or ethics. It is my own opinion. And I didnt state that a person has bad morals or ethics for trying to remove problem animals and im all for it. I just think its bad ethics to shoot a game animal that can be eaten and let it lay and rot and moraly I couldnt do that. Everyone has different morals and ethics than others and thats why we are individuals. My biggest question is if theres that big of a problem down there, Why dont all of the private property and ranch owners open up their land to the public for hog hunting without charging a fee? I Would love to come down and do some hog hunting for free and take home as much as my coolers could hold. And I got lots of big coolers.
Again my appology Deerhunter61, and no offense meant. I am simply stating how I feel with my morals and standards and my previous reply was not all directed at you.
And Yithian, I do understand what their dealing with. I am a livestock farmer myself and deal with these issues every day of the year. And I never said to let them be. Im just saying that the meat from the hogs should be put to good use. If you cant raise cows with all the problems from pigs,conditions,etc. why not eat pork? I understand you cant eat all of them but there has to be some kind of program down there for helping the hungry. If not, you should think of starting one with the agencies in the area. Alot of people would be grateful.

Dearhunter61
May 25, 2008, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the response and your apology is accepted. I wish I had the answer as to why the land owners here do not want hunters to come and assist. Perhaps I can provide some of the answers. Maybe some Texas land owners will respond and let me know if I am on track here. I believe land owners are more afraid of hunters they do not personally know and the damage they can do than they are of the hogs. Sad that we are at a place in our society when that is the case but unfortunately the very things you have brought up, Morality and Ethics are probably the same reason these land owners do not want people they do not know coming on their land to assist in ridding them of the hogs.

I hunted for years on public land here in Texas and this coming year will be the first time in quite a few years that I will be hunting on a lease...simply because of the cost and also the misrepresentation of leases I have paid for in the past and I can tell you a lot of the people in the woods especially on public land have little to no ethics. I quit hunting the first two weeks of the season for this very reason when hunting public land. Simply to dangerous. I am fortunate that Texas deer hunting runs from the first weekend of November through the first weekend of January.

Now before someone takes aim at me for pointing out the lack of ethics of some of the public hunters I have encountered here in Texas and takes offense let me say I know there are a lot of Texas hunters who do have ethics and morality, more do than don't I am sure but the ones who do not are the issue here and they are the reason for the issues mentioned above. It only takes one to create that perception and it is unfortunate but perception is reality to the one with the perception.

I think we have turned this into a new thread...

RedneckFur
May 25, 2008, 07:13 PM
For someone who makes such pungent comments, you could use some education where hunting is concerned.

I've been hunting for 20 years. I'm also a Forest Ranger. I'm pretty sure my hunting and wildlife education is up to snuff.

hunt because I can spend days high on a mountain where I can see a town 70 miles away (on a clear day) while looking for a big old buck who's past his prime, bred with his share of the does, and is living a solitary life on borrowed time.

I agree with you. Thats one of the best parts of hunting.

Getting a little tired of the self righteous meat hunters who want to fill the pot and condemn those who actually enjoy the out of doors and use hunting as a way to do it.

:confused:
Did I say there was anything wrong with enjoying hunting? No, I didnt. I said I didnt like folks who kill a deer, cut off the antlers, and leave the carcass for the buzzards.

Slightly higher than those who fight dogs for sport" ?
I think that falls into the category of the self righteous

Ever been walking through the woods and found 3 or 4 half-rotted bucks in a pile, their antlers cut off and the rest half eaten by buzzards and wild dogs? I have. I see this a dozen times every hunting season. (And often a few weeks after hunting season too) These deer are killed by people who only value antlers and have no intentions of using the meat. They kill for the fun of watching something die, then bragging to their buddies. Do you think that this is more sporting than fighting dogs?

Mabey you live in a pace where all hunters are honest folk who are good stewards of the land who take game ethically and make an effort to use the meat. Id like to live in such a place myself. Unforunately I dont, and I have to call it like I see it.

Socrates
May 25, 2008, 07:34 PM
Being that this game is a "nussance animal" Is it ok for me to hunt for sport and leave the carcus for the buzzards?

Up to you. I often wonder if such 'hunts' don't actually create a nussance worse then the one they are hunting?

We humans have a way of screwing up the ecology by doing things we shouldn't, and putting things in a bigger mess then when we started.

I'd take a long look at maybe your solution is worse then the original problem?

Pigs do positive things in their rooting around, as well...

By the way, the single most important thing to me is a clean, accurate killing shot. Animals don't deserve to suffer anymore then we do...Actually we probably deserve to suffer more then they...

Shooting pigs with inadequate bullets is really offensive. Just because some government calls a pig 'vermin' doesn't take away from the fact that they are REAL close to being human: very smart, skin character, well developed family units, etc. Do they mate for life, like crows?

SPUSCG
May 25, 2008, 07:39 PM
hunting anything that weighs more than your 22 rifle with a .22 is cruel

Nnobby45
May 25, 2008, 09:37 PM
Ever been walking through the woods and found 3 or 4 half-rotted bucks in a pile, their antlers cut off and the rest half eaten by buzzards and wild dogs? I have. I see this a dozen times every hunting season. (And often a few weeks after hunting season too) These deer are killed by people who only value antlers and have no intentions of using the meat. They kill for the fun of watching something die, then bragging to their buddies. Do you think that this is more sporting than fighting dogs?


If you 'd said that to begin with, instead of putting trophy hunters in the same category as the low lifes you mentioned, there wouldn't have been any disagreement.

Guess I don't define low life poachers as trophy hunters. Hope you don't either.

W. C. Quantrill
May 25, 2008, 09:45 PM
Hogs are destructive, nuisance animals. Think of them as cloven hoofed rats. Killing as many as you can find and leaving them for the others to eat is good management.

The thing that seems to get overlooked in these threads is the term management. If left unchecked, the hogs would take over. The only thing better than running into a herd of hogs and killing one, is running into a herd of hogs with a belt fed firearm, and killing all of them. Not to worry, as you cannot get around and kill all the feral hogs in this country. There will always be some left, because they can breed faster than you can kill them.

Take into consideration that the sow will farrow 9 to 12 pigs. Half will be females. They can breed by the time they are 3 months old. Gestation is 121 days (3 months, 3 weeks, and 3 days.) Half of them will be females and it starts over. If you take one sow and farrow her on Jan 1 and figure how many hogs result from that birth in the next year, it is geometric. So if you take that one female and figure no death loss, and an average of 10 pigs per litter, you could potentially have about 1500 births from that one sow in a years time. We know that lots of critters like piglets and they wont all live, but one sow can very be responsible for producing over 500 pigs by the end of the year. By the third generation you are looking at 125 females that can birth 10 pigs each.................It is difficult to attach moral issues to hogs.

As long as you use sufficient rifle to make a clean instant one shot kill, then there is no moral issue with killing hogs. The ones you kill will be eaten by the other hogs before morning. You are only accelerating the natural food chain.

Socrates
May 26, 2008, 12:39 AM
HMMMM. So, the solution is to kill the hogs, to provide food for the other hogs, so then can eat better, and bred faster???
:confused:

Since hog is pretty tasty, it sure would be nice if those sows went on someone's dinner table...

Nnobby45
May 26, 2008, 01:47 AM
Hogs are destructive, nuisance animals. Think of them as cloven hoofed rats.

They're awful cute when they're little, though.:p

Yithian
May 26, 2008, 02:15 AM
LMAO
+1 Nnobby45

And they taste really good too.
VERY tender.

shortwave
May 26, 2008, 10:24 AM
W.C. Quantrill, thats the sum of alot of pigs. I ask the question, "does the state of Texas(or any other states with pig problem) have a program to accept the meat for the needy or if not, why?

Yithian
May 26, 2008, 10:03 PM
To answer shortwave's question kinda...
The bigest problem in Texas is temperature.
Pig meat doesn't last long without it being chilled. The only chilly months here are January and February.
Other than that, it takes several coolers with pre-purchased ice to harvest all of it.
Then, the state is quite large. How far a drive is too far?
Gas prices didn't go down in the last year. Who's gonna pay that gas fee for a nusance animal?

We do the best we can by calling local folks and seeing if they can come get the hogs right then.
They can butcher them while we butcher ours.
If we can't find anyone quick, we drag them to the fencelines and let them 'be', for mother nature.
Feral pigs have already driven ranchers poor. Why force ranchers even more in debt while trying to get rid of them?

What logistics can you come up with that will satisfy timeline and budgets, for the entire state?
The current policy is, let the ranchers fend for themselves.
It is much cheaper for everyone involved.

mikenbarb
May 27, 2008, 07:22 AM
I gotta come down south with a bunch of coolers and do some hog hunting to fill the freezers. I could proably fit 5-6 of them in my big chest freezer.:D

roy reali
May 27, 2008, 09:01 AM
Some of you wonder why some private land owners don't open their properties up to the public for hunting. It might be the guys that leave mounds of trash behind. It could be the guys that leave gates open. It could be the guys that can't tell the difference between whitetail and a whiteface. It could be the guys that bring along a dozen buddies to party. It could be the guy that sues for twisting his ankle.

Yeah, makes you wonder why more private land isn't open for the public to use.:confused:

SilentHitz
May 27, 2008, 10:19 AM
RR, that's exactly why more private land is closed to hunters now days...used to be people respected other's property.

A few folks messed that up for the rest of us...at least in my neck of the woods.
Very few people let others hunt on their land now...not like it was 20 years ago.:(

roy reali
May 27, 2008, 10:29 AM
Not too long ago I overheard a local landowner talking about this issue. He was recalling an incident.

He allowed this fellow to use his land to hunt. This guy showed up along with a dozen of his buddies. They proceeded to have good ol' time with beer and loud music. They thrashed his land. Now, what do suppose the odds are that this guy will let someone else use his land? I'll give you a hint...zero!

SilentHitz
May 27, 2008, 10:45 AM
Seen it happen here over the years, trashed land, cut fences...owners just get tired of that crap and close it. I don't blame them, if my land was trashed, it would be posted too.

Mannlicher
May 27, 2008, 03:08 PM
Super-DaveIs it unethical and immoral to hunt game for sport and not for the use of the carcass?



nope, not at all. Try not to confuse "ethics" with "what is right for you personally".

LanceOregon
May 27, 2008, 07:16 PM
This is a moral dilema for me.

Just the other day I caught a rat in my house and could have let it go, but instead I whacked him with a shovel 3 times and he died. Now I did not release the rat because I know he would return and continue to breed and bring in other rats. So I whacked him.

Now I had no guilt what so ever about whacking this rat for the mere fact that he exists and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now if I take it up to a larger species of animal and whacked something bigger, like a dog or cat. I would feel remose. I would not shot and kill a dog that constantly dug through my garbage. I would shoot him with rubber buck shot from a shotgun and scare him away for good.

Now suppose I am hunting for hog, rabbit, bambi or even a panda bear. If I hunt it and kill it for sport and leave the carcus is it any different than killing the rat in my house for the mere fact that he exists and was in the wrong spot?


These are some pretty far out scenarios that you are making up here. Shooting an animal that is on your state's big game list, and then leaving it to waste would generally be a hunting regulation offense. You could be fined, have equipment used in the hunt seized, and have your hunting rights abridged. That is how it is here in Oregon.

Vermin like Feral hogs, coyotes, and rattlesnakes are no way in the same category. Here in Oregon, all of these animals are totally unprotected, and can be legally shot at any time.

And regarding killing a rat in your yard: My goodness, what else are you supposed to do? Capture it and take it to your local Humane Society, and have them put it up for adoption?

Your Guidelines here should be both legal, and then religious. First, if killing the animal in a particular way is illegal, then it should never be done. Secondly, consider what your own religion may give guidance on the issue. After all, God gave man dominion over all of the animals. None of them is considered to have the same rights as man. Only man was created in God's image.

That said, one should never be intentionally cruel to any animal, even the most destructive pest. All animals deserve to have a quick death. Many states even require that hunters not intentionally allow an animal to suffer, and quickly dispatch it if that is possible.

I, for one, could never ever bow hunt. The effectiveness and reliability of a bow in quickly dispatching game just cannot come close to that of a modern rifle. When I kill an animal I don't want it to suffer for any length of time. I thus make every effort to take only what I personally consider to be ethical shots where I have high assurance that I can place my shot so that the animal quickly expires.

Now, does that mean that bow hunting is unethical, just because I am personally not comfortable doing it? I certainly don't think so. Humans have been hunting animals for thousands of years with bows. If someone else wants to hunt by bow, I'm all for that person having the right to do so.

We all have to make our own personal choices regarding what we are comfortable doing. And we all need to fully obey the law, and all hunting regulations.

But you are fretting far too much over this, in my opinion. Feral hogs are indeed very destructive. They are considered to be a harmful invasive species here in Oregon. Thus, just like the Nutria here in our state, there are no limitations on killing them. Both of these animals don't belong here, and are harmful to the natural ecosystem.

.

LanceOregon
May 27, 2008, 07:23 PM
I'm a meat hunter and I try to be a good steward of this good Earth we live on. Has I see it hogs and coyotes are vermin where I live. If you can use parts of the carcass after killing them, great, if not the worms and buzzards will enjoy the gift you've given them. The Earth doesn't waste anything.

That is very well put. I have been on varmint hunts where I have returned to locations the very next day, and the animal's body is already practically picked clean.

In fact, some birds like crows, magpies, and even huge turkey vultures seemed to be attracted to our hunting. It was practically like we were ringing the dinner bell for them. They were often feeding on animals only a few minutes after they were killed.

.

Art Eatman
May 28, 2008, 11:14 AM
During the big Guadalupe River flood in 1998, my cousin trapped 34 feral hogs within a hundred yards of his house. And I've seen photos of over a hundred feral hogs around a deer feeder.

When you have those sorts of numbers of destructive feral animals, you just can't worry about using or leaving the carcasses. You have to kill as many as you can. If you have time and energy to take the meat, great. You do what you can.

Protecting your property from damage is far more important than worrying about feeding buzzards and coyotes.

Yeah, sure, you can make a sport out of going out hog hunting. No problem. But that's not the same as eradicating a pestiferous and harmful animal--which has nothing to do with "hunting".

mikenbarb
May 28, 2008, 08:17 PM
My thought is that if someone is stupid enough to leave a place where he was granted permission to hunt in worse condition than when he got there than he shouldnt have the right to hunt anywhere. Me and a few friends were granted permission a long tim aga to hunt a piece of property and we still do because we leave it better than when we got there. We also lend a helping hand to the owner on weekends or whenever we can. Its good ethics and all hunters should respect the land no matter where we are.
Roy, Its a good law that we have in NJ that noone can sue someone if their engaged in an outdoor activity on another persons land. Its a great law and every stste should adopt it to protect the landowners and to make it a little easier to gain access. Also, Our game law book has a card that the hunter signs and gives to landowner to release him from any lawsuit.

Art Eatman
May 29, 2008, 09:15 AM
Years back, a group of us leased a ranch near Uvalde, Texas for about three years. Dunno why, but that particular ranch just didn't have all that many deer on it. The guy from whom we leased, as a response to our grumping, suggested a ranch which had never been hunted. He called the owner, telling him, "These guys are okay. They leave a place better than what they found it."

Being helpful to a landowner can improve one's life...

Art

LanceOregon
May 29, 2008, 12:29 PM
They don't understand that the feral pigs we control still eat up half of the resources. (what would they do if we let them be?)
They ignore that pigs kill and eat livestock as well.
They are unaware that pigs adopt orphans. (killing a sow does not sentence the piglets to starvation)
All of this, and I haven't even discussed the danger to people physically.
Or, a swines reproductive capabilities.
Or even the devastation to native wildlife. (quail, turkey and deer)

Yithian:

Here in Oregon the Oregon State Department of Fish and Wildlife considers feral pigs to be a grave environmental threat to the state. They are doing all they can to encourage the compete ERADICATION of the animals. In fact, two populations of them in the state have so far been completely wiped out.

While it is currently estimated that there are only a little over 1,000 of them in scattered locations around the state, ODFW knows how prolific feral pigs are, and that populations can thus quickly boom.

The state is actually frustrated because some landowners are lousy stewards, and don't take care of their land, or care about the situation.

One recent study that ODFW did here in Oregon showed that where feral pigs had fed, weeds often replaced the natural vegetation, due to the damage the pigs do. Thus, a wildlife food resource useful to other animals gets replaced by something that is totally inedible for any wildlife.

.

Yithian
May 29, 2008, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the support LanceO.
I feel it is important to let some hunters know why "Ethics" while hunting is truly a relative term.
One ethical hunting experience may not be appropriate for a different animal.
My instance of having to hunt pigs in order to control its population (to attempt extinction) is the dire extreme.
I would never condone that same ethic for any other animal I hunt.
The TPWD says I should do the same for mountain lions, but I know that they help control the pig population.
...As evidenced by 5 lions frequenting a natural funnel for overpopulated pigs.
I may choose to hunt the lions soon, but only plan to harvest two or three.

I am glad to hear that the population in Oregon is so well controlled.
I posted a link somewhere here from a Texas A&M publication...

Found it..
http://icwdm.org/Publications/pdf/Feral%20Pig/Txferalhogs.pdf

The interesting part of the pub. is the fact that a Major University of Agriculture seems to recommend the use of snares.
One land owner I help uses them by the dozen. He checks them twice a day, as they "catch" everything, not just pigs.

Yithian
May 29, 2008, 09:35 PM
Here is a good ethics poll for whitetail...

Assuming all these photo's were taken during the proper season...
Which photo represents an Ethical opportunity, and where would you place the bullet?

A: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/White-tailed_doe.jpg/300px-White-tailed_doe.jpg
60 yards

B: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Quivira-Whitetail-Buck.jpg/300px-Quivira-Whitetail-Buck.jpg
85 yards

C: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/38/Two_Bucks.jpg/300px-Two_Bucks.jpg
55 yards

D: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bb/WhitetailedDeerFawn.jpg/300px-WhitetailedDeerFawn.jpg
2 yards


What would have to happen, for you to take the shot, in those opportunities that are unethical?

Yithian
May 29, 2008, 09:52 PM
My answers for Texas durring deer season...

A: Maybe... 30-30 or larger, thru the ribs, straight to the heart. That water would seriously worry me.
This is a perfect example of a "focus'ed'" deer but, the twig is in the way of a head-shot.

B:I never take this shot.
If the deer didn't spook, and then turned his body to 'focus' elsewhere, I may take a shot.

C: I wouldn't shoot either here.
The one in the water doesn't appear to be legal by Texas standards.
The one at the waters edge may be legal with further glassing, but I would still wait to see if I could get a shot away from the water.

D: MMM, tender.
But cute.
I would probably let this one go... It depends on my hunger levels.