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ISC
May 11, 2008, 11:52 PM
Years ago while I was training for SFAS, I had a regimen of alternating ruck days with run days. While I was rucking I carried an ax handle with me that I had taped a 1/2 inch pipe to. I had talked to a bunch of the soldiers in my unit that had been selected and they said that during the STAR land nav course (approx 30 Km cross country with a 50+ lb ruck) and all candidates had to carry their weapons the whole time (no slings) andthen in team week they had to also carry all kinds of other crap (buckets full of water or sand, 5 gallon water jugs, team boxes, sand bags etc). I was glad to have something in my hands a couple times when I felt threatened by dogs that barked alot and looked like they were going to get loose out of their yards. I was doing 5 mile ruck marches in an hour 3 times a week down the country roads near my old house.

I was running 3- 8 miles and working out before running on the light days; I was really pushing myself so it left me pretty exhausted. Because of the threat of dogs I started carrying the NAA .22 revolver in a grip holster I used to have when I was running. I could carry it anywhere, even in swim trunks or running shorts. It was only good out to about 10 feet with anything resembling accuracy but it made me feel alot better when I was otherwise much less able to defend myself due to exhaustion while working out. My thought was that if nothing else, the noise of the shot would scare off an overly aggressive dog even if I didn't hit it.

I was glad I had it the time I came across a 100+ pound rottweiler that started chasing after me. I stopped running and he bowed up at me with his hackles raised barking like crazy. He actually had white slobber and I briefly wondered if it might be rabid. I'm sure he wasn't, but he was going nuts and I was in the middle of nowhere. I took out the revolver, opened it, and cocked it, thinking that there was no way that 5 .22 shots would stop him from getting in at least a few good bites if he was determined to attack me. He ended up backing down though, and I slowly backed away until he stopped following me.

I started replaying the situation in my head and I think that the fact that I was armed changed the dynamic. I've always heard that dogs can sense when you're afraid and once I had a weapon in my hand maybe he sensed a difference in me and that was part of what made him lose interest.

Anyhow, I think that it's better to be underarmed than unarmed, and that little .22 was just right for the purpose I used it for. I always called it a good gun to bring to a knife fight.

primlantah
May 12, 2008, 10:29 AM
+1. I think too many people have underestimated the value of small calibers. Yes, the big bore is a safe bet... but ill take a small bore over no bore any day.

I either sprained my hand or cracked my schaphoid in my strong hand when there was an armed guy running from the cops in my apartment complex. my 45 would have punished the crap out of both of us if he broke into my unit... the 22 would have only punished him. Yes, its a small bullet and not very powerful...but i have shot thousands more rounds(2 hand and 1 hand strong and weak side) through my ruger mk3 than any other pistol. those well placed buggers will work just fine. I didn't feel undergunned at all...

David Armstrong
May 12, 2008, 11:09 AM
Agreed. Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.

bushidomosquito
May 12, 2008, 12:40 PM
I lived near a farm where people were always selling various melons at roadside stands and if you caught them at the right time they would send you home with half a truckload for $20 rather than find a place to dump them. I have shot more melons of human head size with a 10-22 and Buckmark pistol than most people and got pretty good at it. We would roll them accross the ground and swing them from strings while seeing how many rounds we could put in them and I could always make multiple hits wirh a .22 but was lucky to hit one with the first or second shot with a 9mm or .45.

A few years later I got my own place in a not so nice neighborhood and always felt safe with nothing but a loaded 10-22 by my bed. 11 CCI Stingers in the head weather moving or not will stop you, I don't care who or what you are. Little bullets work just fine when you can put them where it counts.

HKuser
May 12, 2008, 12:52 PM
I've always heard that dogs can sense when you're afraid and once I had a weapon in my hand maybe he sensed a difference in me and that was part of what made him lose interest.

Interesting. I was hiking once in forest when I sat down at at the bottom of a hill. At the top of the hill appeared a German Shepherd who barked then ran down toward me. I was open carrying a 1911 .45 in a side holster, I drew, cocked and leveled it at the dog's head. He stopped instantly and ran back up the hill, that animal was more sensible than most humans.

Dismantler
May 12, 2008, 01:00 PM
Back in 1980 I was accosted by two very large fellows that wanted to discuss my continued progress down the street. I put my hand on a High Standard .22 derringer that was IWB. They let me pass. :p

tshadow6
May 12, 2008, 03:27 PM
I carried a .22 Beretta for a few yrs. I never felt underarmed. Hits with a .22 are better than misses with a .45

KCabbage
May 12, 2008, 03:36 PM
I'll take the .45!

threegun
May 12, 2008, 04:33 PM
Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.

Mr. Murphy will see to it that I get that other 5 percent.

I'm in the larger is better club. Mouseguns are backups or when its impossible to carry bigger. Not convienient but impossible to carry bigger.

Hits with a .22 are better than misses with a .45

And hits with the 45 are better than identically located hits with the 22.


Most folks can shoot most fighting calibers well enough to get center mass hits with minimal practice. If one were to spend the same time shooting the bigger bored guns as they spent shooting mouse calibered guns they would more than likely shoot that gun just as well.............unless physical handicaps are present.

ISC
May 12, 2008, 07:19 PM
Sometimes carrying a concealed weapon that shoots full size cartridge is just not possible. When you're in running shorts on a 5+mile run is one such time.

cschwanz
May 13, 2008, 01:34 AM
i will agree that any gun is better than no gun, but given the chance, ill take a larger caliber any day over a smaller caliber. i trust a .45 to do a better job than a .22.....assuming i do mine.

MTMilitiaman
May 13, 2008, 01:45 AM
Considering the gun I want is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6nm-6eCzM

I guess I'll have to compromise with something else.

Double Naught Spy
May 13, 2008, 04:28 AM
I was glad I had it the time I came across a 100+ pound rottweiler that started chasing after me. I stopped running and he bowed up at me with his hackles raised barking like crazy. He actually had white slobber and I briefly wondered if it might be rabid.

Very excited dogs froth at the mouth. I think too many kid's cartoons have frothy dogs as rabid and we assume froth = rabid. It doesn't just like being aggressive doesn't mean rabib but is also a part of being rabib in many cases.

I started replaying the situation in my head and I think that the fact that I was armed changed the dynamic. I've always heard that dogs can sense when you're afraid and once I had a weapon in my hand maybe he sensed a difference in me and that was part of what made him lose interest.

Here, you are assuming that the psychic dog is only being aggressive because you were afraid and that you stopped being afraid when you pulled your mouse gun, yet from what you described, you were still pondering being bitten and so I would guess that you were still afraid. FYI, what they sense is adrenaline and it was still being emitted from you after drawing your gun.

I doubt the gun did anything but give you comfort. The dog had already stopped his approach before you pulled the gun. You simply stood your ground and while doing so, you pulled the gun.

Anyhow, I think that it's better to be underarmed than unarmed, and that little .22 was just right for the purpose I used it for. I always called it a good gun to bring to a knife fight.

Yeah, underarmed is better than unarmed, no doubt, but the NAA mini is a "real man's gun" because once you fire all five rounds, assuming you have that much time, and hit your target, there is a good chance that will will then have to use it as a rock and beat your attacker because the shots (the ones that may hit) are not likely to produce any sort of immediate physiological stops and there is no way you are going to reload it for more shots. In many ways, a knife is going to be better than a NAA mini.

ISC
May 13, 2008, 08:05 AM
I think that most dogs would be scared off just by the loud noise of a shot. I know it's only a .22, but dogs have sensative ears and most of them will hide or retreat from the sound alone unless they've been trained to ignore it. Granted, if the dog had been rabid then I would have been screwed, but I really didn't think that was the case. That thought did pass through my mind though.

I find it interesting how some will dismiss multiple shots from a .22, but give almost magical properties to a 12 ga. Think about this:

Five .22 bullets is about the same as a shell of 00 buck that had 1/2 of the shot that hit the target.

Here, you are assuming that the psychic dog is only being aggressive because you were afraid and that you stopped being afraid when you pulled your mouse gun, yet from what you described, you were still pondering being bitten and so I would guess that you were still afraid. FYI, what they sense is adrenaline and it was still being emitted from you after drawing your gun.

I doubt the gun did anything but give you comfort. The dog had already stopped his approach before you pulled the gun. You simply stood your ground and while doing so, you pulled the gun.


He actually was barking, then walked a litle closer, then barked more, then walked closer, then barked more. He was advancing on me after I backed away, and I continued backing away after I pulled the pistol. He stopped advancing after I pointed it at him and then I walked around him on the other side of thr road, keeping my front to him.

I was pretty pumped up though, . I was about 3 1/2 miles into the run and feeling good. Lots of endorphins and adreneline just from the workout alone. I suspect that he was more motivated by a chase instinct than anything else, and he was probably between me and his driveway. I'm guessing that he had just gotten loose and was usually confined to a house or chain because I had never seen him before like I do alot of other dogs that chase me on the other side of their fence when I run next to it.

primlantah
May 13, 2008, 09:14 AM
bigger is better club,

Just to clear one thing up... my favorite gun to shoot and carry is a 45. With that said, I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting a .22 is better than a .45. I think were saying a .22 will do the job when a .45 isn't possible or practical. A 45 is always more likely to stop quickly but when physical disability or lack of practicality rule out the bigger guns a well maintained 22, with practice and confidence, can be effective.

threegun
May 13, 2008, 11:36 AM
Sometimes carrying a concealed weapon that shoots full size cartridge is just not possible. When you're in running shorts on a 5+mile run is one such time.

change shorts and carry bigger..............if the running shorts are mandatory then its not possible.


I find it interesting how some will dismiss multiple shots from a .22, but give almost magical properties to a 12 ga. Think about this:

Five .22 bullets is about the same as a shell of 00 buck that had 1/2 of the shot that hit the target.

ISC, You must understand your gun. A 22lr from a NAA mini revolver with a sub 2 inch barrel will penetrate way less than the when shot from a rifle. In fact a beretta jetfire in 22 short out penetrated my NAA 22 MAGNUM by double. My 22short penetrated only 13 pieces of thin cardboard compared to 7 from the NAA in 22mag. My Ruger 10-22 rifle passed thru all 30 pieces and the bullet is still at large.

Next you have to factor in your misses and the time it will take you to get 5 shots off with the NAA. You assume that the shotty will only get half its payload on target yet the far less likely of the 2 to hit the target gets 100 percent hits. BTW at distances less than 5 yards buckshot from every shotgun I own holds a fist sized pattern or less.

Your NAA served you well against the dog. What would worry me is the large mean dog that forces me to shoot and the ability of my defense gun to stop that attack. From what I have seen from my NAA revolvers tells me no they won't......unless the dog gives up. I believe that it would be all but impossible to MAKE the dog give up. I would rather use my Puma knife against a dog that wont give up.

I don't mean to second guess your victory against the dog. You won so who are we to talk. I'm just giving you fuel for thought for what could have been.

Wuchak
May 13, 2008, 12:03 PM
A kel-tec P3AT or Ruger LCP in a Smartcarry setup can be concealed comfortably and securely in running shorts.

ISC
May 13, 2008, 12:14 PM
I think that even a blank firing pistol would be an asset against most threatening dogs. They really don't like loud noises. Hell, I've scared them off just pretending to reach down onto the ground as if I was picking up a rock to throw at them. Maybe just seeing something in my hand was enough to get the response he showed.

Three gun, your right about the limited potential for an accurate high volume of fire from that little revolver, I do think that if he had gotten to knife fighting range that a .22 fired into his ear canal would have been more effective than a knife.

threegun
May 13, 2008, 03:24 PM
ISC,

I do think that if he had gotten to knife fighting range that a .22 fired into his ear canal would have been more effective than a knife.

I agree however getting that precise shot on a moving and biting target is the problem. Then you have entry angles. At that range you are going to be bit more than likely just like with the knife. If a charged up deer can run hundreds of yards after being heart shot by a 30-06 how much damage can a large vicious dog do in the time it takes him bleed out from 22 caliber holes.

Just think about it. Small caliber handgun bullets are slow and light. They lack penetration, the ability to create a large wound channel, and the ability to smash through bone to reach the vitals. They are much more likely to be deflected by the skull and bones.

That leave its users to hope for the perfect shot or the target giving up.

primlantah
May 13, 2008, 03:44 PM
i guess by 3guns advice we should all carry 50bmg 24/7.

just joking with you. you are right. bigger is always more lethal. bigger isnt always better.

threegun
May 13, 2008, 05:18 PM
Isn't more lethal always better when trying to stop a violent attack ;)

Hey I still own a few mice. The only one I rely on occassionally is the Kel-Tec p-32.

shep854
May 13, 2008, 07:59 PM
If you look around you can find some very compact guns of decent caliber. The classic snubby revolver comes to mind. A good .38 Spl is nothing to be sneezed at. .32 magnum is another option. Nowadays, there are excellent 9x19 pistols in the size range of .380s. Kahr, Kel-Tec, Skyye and some others will give excellent service, if you do your part.

Personally, I carry a Kel-Tec PF-9. It drops right into my trouser pocket and is almost unnoticeable. A true all-the-time gun!

Deaf Smith
May 13, 2008, 09:43 PM
Let's see. My carry guns are Glock 27 with Winchester T series 155s and Smith J with DPX .38s. The house guns? Same guns!

So that settles that.

Double Naught Spy
May 14, 2008, 06:21 AM
He actually was barking, then walked a litle closer, then barked more, then walked closer, then barked more. He was advancing on me after I backed away, and I continued backing away after I pulled the pistol. He stopped advancing after I pointed it at him and then I walked around him on the other side of thr road, keeping my front to him.

After reading your additional description, it sounds like you stared down a country driveway dog, nothing more. This is something paperboys and letter carriers end up doing a lot. You didn't need a gun to do it.

Five .22 bullets is about the same as a shell of 00 buck that had 1/2 of the shot that hit the target.

No.

Let's see, 5 .22 caliber bullets traveling at roughly 650 fps would never perform as well as 5 pellets of .33 caliber 00 buckshot traveling at roughly 1300 fps.

I do like your optimism however. You are assuming you are going to hit with all 5 shots of a .22 lr mini revolver that is single action and has a crappy trigger and sights that are equally crappy and you are going to hit a relatively small, quick moving target. Wow. I doubt it given that folks have trouble hitting stationary or much more slowly moving larger human targets under stress.

ISC
May 14, 2008, 07:40 AM
Well, all I have to say is that being chased by a huge rottweiler is scary. Not the most scary thing I ever experienced by any stretch of the imagination, but scary enough that I was glad I had something that couold bite back in my hand.

I've only been seriously (drew blood) bit once, and that was by a Chow chased me on my bike then bit my calf when I was about 14. I kicked him in the face and rode away faster. The rotty could have done alot more than a few puncture wounds and a tear.

David Armstrong
May 14, 2008, 11:36 AM
bigger is always more lethal. bigger isnt always better.
Actually bigger is not always more lethal either, and as you said bigger is not always better. More importantly, better frequently doesn't matter. We all make compromises in what we carry, the only question becomes at what point do you feel the compromise works out best for you. One can argue about it all one wishes, but the facts are overwhelming--caliber rarely makes much difference in self-defence situations, and when it does make a difference it is still way down on the list of priorities. It is my experience that most people who feel they can't defend themselves with small calibers usually can't defend themselves very well with large calibers either.

threegun
May 14, 2008, 04:34 PM
It is my experience that most people who feel they can't defend themselves with small calibers usually can't defend themselves very well with large calibers either.

I can defend myself with a variety of weapons from my fists to firearms. Still I want something bigger than a mouse. If I was in Africa armed with a 223 I would be happy to have that rifle if a lion was near. Still in the back of my mind I would be concerned that if the lion chose to attack, my 223 would fail to stop it before it hurt me. The mouse gun vs bigger is no different. You feel just as well armed with a mouse I don't. When you find yourself facing a determined attacker I believe you will rethink your strategy. We both may win or we both could lose. Only one of us will have left something on the table going in.

David Armstrong
May 14, 2008, 05:57 PM
To reiterate---if your success in a gunfight is based on the caliber you select, you've already gotten so many other problems that caliber is the least of your concerns.

ISC
May 14, 2008, 05:57 PM
the phrase "mouse gun" sounds ridiculous to me. *** is that supposed to mean?

David Armstrong
May 14, 2008, 06:03 PM
the phrase "mouse gun" sounds ridiculous to me. *** is that supposed to mean?
Actually it is rather ridiculous. It implies a gun that is only effective on mouse-sized opponents. Yet no one has ever been able to provide a shred of proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns.

Double Naught Spy
May 14, 2008, 08:41 PM
the phrase "mouse gun" sounds ridiculous to me. *** is that supposed to mean?

Well, if a deer gun is for deer and a duck gun for duck, then a mouse gun is for mice. The only real problem there is that mouse guns are usually very bad for varmitting.

So what is a mouse gun? Mouse guns are small-sized guns, usually of very small calibers, usually .380 or .32 acp and below. They tend to be light weight, short barrelled, and have poorer or rudimentary sights, but not always. Sadly, many have pretty crappy triggers as well. With these factors combined, they tend to be more difficult to shoot well, even though some are fairly accurate and this is reflected when they are fired by a practiced shooter.

Yet no one has ever been able to provide a shred of proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns.

And just what evidence do you feel would prove this? So you are saying a Swiss Mini would be as good as a S&W 500 magnum revolver?

LanceOregon
May 14, 2008, 09:00 PM
If you look around you can find some very compact guns of decent caliber. The classic snubby revolver comes to mind. A good .38 Spl is nothing to be sneezed at. .32 magnum is another option. Nowadays, there are excellent 9x19 pistols in the size range of .380s. Kahr, Kel-Tec, Skyye and some others will give excellent service, if you do your part.

Personally, I carry a Kel-Tec PF-9. It drops right into my trouser pocket and is almost unnoticeable. A true all-the-time gun!

Shep854:

I agree with you. A small 9mm offers the best compromise in stopping power, firepower, and concealability. Going smaller really starts to impose some significant compromises.

I went with Kahr's smallest model, the PM9. Here it is next to a Smith & Wesson J-frame snub-nose:


http://www.gunblast.com/images/Kahr-PM9/DSC02415.jpg


And here it is in the middle, with a Walther PPS on the left, and a Kel-Tec PF-9 to the right. Any of these three guns would not be that much to carry, with the Walther being the biggest of the three:


http://www.gunblast.com/images/Kahr-PM9/DSC02416.jpg

.

AKGunner
May 14, 2008, 09:21 PM
ISC said,

Sometimes carrying a concealed weapon that shoots full size cartridge is just not possible. When you're in running shorts on a 5+mile run is one such time.
__________________


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Last summer I went on runs up to 9 miles in distance on a regular basis with my 38 caliber model 642. (snubby) I carried +p ammo in it. I kept it in a Galco fanny pack. No problem.

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 09:36 PM
.22... FWIW...My choice for the best survival caliber. If I could afford only one weapon and ammo it would be a .22 and a trunk full of ammo.

Definitely would carry a .22. Yes...very comforting. Will definitely take a Rottweiler...even if you have to shove it in it's rib cage while it is swinging off your weak arm.

Fast, accurate, deadly. Good for home defense. If the S ever did HTF, after the dust settles, we will probably use .22 as currency.

...but I still carry a .45 ACP. ;)

shep854
May 14, 2008, 09:40 PM
LanceOregon,

Thanks for posting those photos. When I determined that pocket carry was what worked best for me, I carried a snub. After I outshot myself with a Kahr, I went in search for one. The "additional flatness" and quick reload appealed to me. I couldn't find one, and went with a Kel-Tec P-11 that I could find. Finally, I checked out the PF-9, and after getting used to it's quirks, I am very pleased and comfortable with it.

2cooltoolz
May 14, 2008, 10:27 PM
I agree with you about the "new Currency" being based on the .22 cartridge. I bought up a bunch of 500 rd boxes recently, on sale, and have been saving them back "in case". I plan to use them to buy 9mm and .45 ammo. ;)
Just kidding, I have several .22's and they need feeding, too. But I personally want more oomph for self-defense.

Seriously though, I carry a .32 all the time, but don't really feel it's adequate in the worst case scenario I can imagine realistically happening. I carry at least a 9mm more and more often.

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 11:11 PM
Buy a box of .22 CCI mini-mags every time I go to the store for the 45 ACP. I am trying to weigh my safe down with them... My wife thinks that 100 rounds of WWB 45 ACP costs $36.00. ;)

I like my 45, but just don't need much of them.

Since I can't have everything:(, best to have lots of .22, 12 ga., and 308. :)

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 11:32 PM
I agree with you about the "new Currency" being based on the .22 cartridge. I bought up a bunch of 500 rd boxes recently, on sale, and have been saving them back "in case". I plan to use them to buy 9mm and .45 ammo.

P.S. Now that's funny! :D Touche'

Firepower!
May 15, 2008, 07:07 AM
I agree that small calibers are under rated.

A .22 in need is far better then a 50AE in car or at home. What I am trying to say is what I heard from my elders. The best weapon is whatever you can use. I can be something simple as a stick or advanced as whatever the newer gadget is out there these days.

.351winchester
May 15, 2008, 07:22 AM
While I was rucking I carried an ax handle with me that I had taped a 1/2 inch pipe to.
Legal issues aside I'll take a 9 oz. blackjack over anything (bat, asp, even taser). Not a lot of reach, but lights out every time...you need a good aim and maybe even hold back a little to avoid fatal injury. The blows as seen in the film Heat would likely have been deadly.

bikerbill
May 15, 2008, 12:05 PM
I agree that bigger is always better ... but when I take my dog for a walk in my rural peaceful Texas neighborhood in shorts and a t shirt, I'm not strapping on my .45. I slip a Taurus PT25 in my front pocket, 10 rds of .25 HP ... it won't stop an army, but it will deter most local animals ... an annoying whitetail during mating season or a stray coyote ... I'm in far more jeopardy at the mall, and I carry accordingly ..

Deaf Smith
May 15, 2008, 05:28 PM
Stopping power roughly follows bore size. Roughly being the operative word as power is a combination of bore size, bullet weight, velocity, bullet construction, and most important, where the shot lands!

As Davis Spauling has wrote, in actual videotaped shootings you can see a definate difference in reaction between lower powered weapons and higher powered ones. The reaction is not huge, but there is a difference.

He also wrote that shot placement is more important than the bore size of the weapon. And that all goes back to Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, Speed). You balance all three.

As for the definition of mouse guns, well we all know farmers don't off mice with .45s or .357s. .22 short or such is used. And thus little guns in .22, .25, and to an extent .32s are 'mouseguns' as for the power they project.

The trouble with such small guns as .25s has to do with a) power, b) miniscule grips, c) lack of any realistic sighting system, d) poor triggers, and e) trigger guards (along with small grips) that make any speed presentation a real iffy thing. Their only advantage being you can hide it well, in fact very well, with little effort.

Double Naught Spy
May 15, 2008, 09:31 PM
A .22 in need is far better then a 50AE in car or at home.

This is one of the justification statements for not adequately being prepared, right? If you thought enough to bring along a pistol, then why did you pick the .22 and not the 50AE...or more realistically, a .380, 9mm, .40, .45, etc.?

ISC
May 15, 2008, 09:50 PM
Again, there is no way that you can carry even a 9mm in PT shorts and a tank top (what I wear running in the summer here in Florida). That little .22 was even an inconvenience, anything with any weight will throw off your stride and make your shorts start to sag before you break a sweat. I liked the NAA because I could disassemble it after a run and wash the sweat off with HOT water and then reoil it.

I keep looking for another one, but they're like $250+ for one with a grip holster in .22 mag.

primlantah
May 16, 2008, 09:31 AM
+1 ISC

The last thing i want when going for a jog or checking the mail in 90+% humidity and 120 degree heat is an 11+1 45. Thats 0.5-1 pound of ammo plus gun weight all strapped to your side...no good.

the aluminum j-frames are nice but at 15oz empty i still dont want that in my pocket when my clothes start getting heavy from sweat.

I guess internet commandos work out in BDUs. I wear shorts and will usually end up losing the shirt. a gun belt just doesnt work here.

ActivShootr
May 16, 2008, 09:55 AM
If you are using the weapon solely for defense against dogs, a .22 is sufficent. A .22 lr hollow point to the head will dispatch just about any dog.

David Armstrong
May 16, 2008, 12:41 PM
And just what evidence do you feel would prove this?
Just like I said--any proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns. Given that mouse guns have been carried a lot over the years, and used a lot, if they were particualrly problematic we should have seen it. We haven't.
So you are saying a Swiss Mini would be as good as a S&W 500 magnum revolver?
Perhaps. Bigger is not better, it is just bigger. A Toyota Corolla gets you to the grocery store jsut as good as a Toyota Camry. Both do the job. Defensive handguns are much the same. If the BG stops, having a bigger gun won't make the BG stop more.

David Armstrong
May 16, 2008, 12:47 PM
This is one of the justification statements for not adequately being prepared, right? If you thought enough to bring along a pistol, then why did you pick the .22 and not the 50AE...or more realistically, a .380, 9mm, .40, .45, etc.?
That makes the assumption that the .22 is not adequate. As I so often like to point out, history gives us some pretty good examples to look at. The mousegun calibers have been fine for CCW-type self defense. It is always a compromise, and virtually any gun/caliber combo will be adequate for what we are discussing.

AKGunner
May 16, 2008, 02:13 PM
It all comes down to personal choice now doesn't it?

If I was running in the heat I'd keep my fanny pack on and run with my S&W 642 revolver. I'm not totally without hot weather experience. I lived in Texas for 3 years and southern Ohio for 3 years as well. The day I couldn't run with my 38 in a fanny pack is the day I'd give up running. Would I run with any sized gun in my pocket? No.

MY lower limit for personal defense is 38 sp or 9mm. A lot of people agree with me. So what. If you are happy with a smaller gun in a lower caliber than I then more power to you. Carry the 22. Just don't try to tell me carrying a slightly larger gun in hot, humid weather isn't doable or that it will break my stride.:rolleyes:

Chui
May 16, 2008, 03:23 PM
I'm a proponent of overkill in some areas and I like my all steel 5" 1911 or my polymer full size M&P9 pretty much everywhere. I'm not jogging at the moment and I, too, am concerned about dogs, first, and pesky humans, second. Needless to say, running with a 1911 or topped off M&P9 is considerably hefty. What's a sensible guy to do?

Short Background

I am a dog person. I had gamebred Pit Bulls growing up and they are phenomenally stable around people and unexcelled as athletes. American Bulldogs are similar but more protective - and a lot bigger. Since I'm keenly familiar with them I'm also concerned about these (and any Molossid/Mastiff/Bulldog/Bulldog-Terrier breed). Iff (if and only if) the Rottie been seroius about "his business" he'd have had you. I keep the "worst case scenario" spinning around my noggin and a .22LR would only get a good bulldog's attention; essentially letting him know your intentions aren't good and you'd then find out that they give as well as they take. Therefore, the full-size service pistol affection.

May I suggest pepper spray and a good fixed blade (preferable, if legal) or spring-assisted opening knife (if legal). Bear with me because I'm brainstorming this.

I no longer run on the street due to me not having my old high school companion jogging at my side to deal pain to the dog that chooses to engage me so I:


Ride my mountain bike with either my M&P9 or M&P45 in tow and pepper spray and fighting folder in my offside pocket; or

Run at the local high school track.


I choose this because I KNOW firsthand what a dog can do and while they usually sense & shirk real danger it's not always the case - and they will whip you if they are determined to get you (assuming it's about 2/3rds your mass and an appropriate breed - Pit Bulls/Am Staffs/American Bulldogs (and the like) and any of their crosses don't require any size guidelines as they seem to deliver punishment by the buckets full and absorb punishment like the proverbial sponge.

And even if you win you're horribly disfigured with possible nerve damage because they WILL get a hold of you. A Rottie will tackle you and then deliver even worse damage than a Pit Bull since he's twice their size. Where I live large breeds are not uncommon and Pit Bull/Pit Bull crosses aren't that rare, either. But keep in mind that it doesn't require a Molosser to inflict horrible damage or death. ANY well-motivated dog can do you in - especially if you panic.

Yes, a .22 LR is better than a popsickle stick, but if you can ride a bicycle (not "as good as" biking, perhaps) or running at a track (very boring if you're interested in mileage). Both are better than jogging through neighborhoods.

Where I am there are coyotes (Ann Arbor) and I'd HATE to be the first adult to be tackled by "Wiley & Co." :p:rolleyes: "It's just a mangy coyote!" Yeah, but I imagine that if they came for you it wouldn't be nice. So if I am running rural with a ruck I'd definitely have something (short cocabolo club) and a suitable blade and pepper spray. But my M&P with a spare magazine would be on my waist.

Comments?

Deaf Smith
May 16, 2008, 06:10 PM
ISC: Again, there is no way that you can carry even a 9mm in PT shorts and a tank top (what I wear running in the summer here in Florida). That little .22 was even an inconvenience, anything with any weight will throw off your stride and make your shorts start to sag before you break a sweat. I liked the NAA because I could disassemble it after a run and wash the sweat off with HOT water and then reoil it.

I keep looking for another one, but they're like $250+ for one with a grip holster in .22 mag.

Tank-tops? Well if your fashon dictates your weapons, then self-defense must be a low priority to. Why not speedos to while you are at it?

Yea you can pack many a good size guns. It's call dropping weight. Dieting. Working out. Getting fit. Or as I've posted on Glocktalk, Gut .vs. Gun.

I used to be 185+ for 5' 8". I'm now 165 for the same height. I workout alot and I fell ten times better. And yes, the size 36 pants lets me carry any Glock made in the summer. And that's wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

ISC
May 16, 2008, 06:22 PM
I have to talke the APFT for the army twice a year. Back then I had to take it every month. One of the things on the test is a 2 mile run and the only thing that will really prepare you for a running test is running.

I'm not in the shape I used to be and It doesn't hurt my feelings (much) that my run times are up to 15 minutes. I'm 37, I deserve a little break.

I still have to run though in order to prepare for the APFT (promotion points) and when I lead PT sessions full of 19 year old soldiers. I live in a different neighborhood now, but I still worry about dogs more than the 2 legged predators around here. Its funny how much respect one gets in my neighborhood where everyone looks different than me because they see me working out in my driveway or running around the hood.

I haven't been carrying but had a bit of a start the other day when I was running and a BIG black pittbull mix ran straight at his fence when I ran by him and I didn't see him until he hit the fence and started raising Cain. It startled me and made me jump because I wasn't expecting it and could barely see him in the dusk.

That incident made me think about the rottweiler and getting another NAA or possibly a .38 derringer. The downside to the derringer is that the possibility of a warning shot to scare off a dog isn't really there. If it attacks after your warning shot (admittedly unlikely unless it's had specific training) you've got one shot to kill it and no recourse for a kill shot while he's knawing on your kneecap.

Deaf Smith
May 16, 2008, 08:15 PM
ISC,

I'm only 53. Work out 5 days a week (and I'm not kidding.) Time to get back into shape before you can't do it.

threegun
May 19, 2008, 10:06 AM
ISC, All we are trying to say is that you can carry bigger and run. We have done it. Change your attire or get a fanny pack...it can be done if you want to.

threegun
May 19, 2008, 11:48 AM
To reiterate---if your success in a gunfight is based on the caliber you select, you've already gotten so many other problems that caliber is the least of your concerns.

David, My success in a gunfight might fall to my cartridges ability of penetrate past bone and skull. That has nothing to do with my ability to put rounds on target or the tactics I use while doing so. For you to continually suggest that "mouseguns" can cause, in equal amounts as bigger bored guns, the blood loss necessary to incapacitate is nuts.

It seems with you that everything revolves around statistics. Still you carry a gun when statistics say you will probably never need one. My adversary may not have gotten your memo that they should give up at the mere sight of any firearm. They may force me to shoot them. They may not give up with the pain. I will agree that at this point I am in deep trouble however having a gun that is harder to shoot, penetrates much less, and who's bullets cause less blood loss is only going to worsen that trouble.

I know a lady who shot and killed a home invader after taking a hit to the arm from a 22lr. One can only speculate what the outcome would have been had the bad guy been armed with a larger caliber considering that the little 22 went through her arm and into the rib cage but failed to break her humerus or puncture her vitals.

David Armstrong
May 19, 2008, 05:06 PM
My success in a gunfight might fall to my cartridges ability of penetrate past bone and skull.
And you success in a gun fight might fall to a large number of other issues also.
For you to continually suggest that "mouseguns" can cause, in equal amounts as bigger bored guns, the blood loss necessary to incapacitate is nuts.
There is just one problem here, one that is so common with you that I put you on “ignore” for quite a while---I never said that or anything like that. Once again you show that rather than deal with what is said you choose to make something up and then try to blame it on somebody else. Let's try to be honest.
It seems with you that everything revolves around statistics
It seems strange to me that you think you can make generalized comments like that about my life based on a relatively few postings on the internet. However, most peoples lives revolve around statistics. I may be a bit more cognizant of that fact, or more willing to admit to it, but each of us every day makes dozens, maybe hundreds, of decisions based on what we think the likely outcome will be.
Still you carry a gun when statistics say you will probably never need one.
What has that got to do with anything? It is not a black-white yes-no issue, it is an issue with a lot of gray, cost/benefit analysis, etc. And again, your lack of understanding about statistics is showing. An overall lifetime chance of needing a gun is actually fairly good. The chances of needing to shoot someone with it are much smaller, and that the caliber will play a big part is even smaller.
....however having a gun that is harder to shoot, penetrates much less, and who's bullets cause less blood loss is only going to worsen that trouble.
In some situations it might. In most it won’t. And note that to get to that spot you have already had to deal with three very unlikely events. BTW, penetration is more a factor of bullet design than caliber, and mouseguns do not have to be much harder to shoot, if any.
I know a lady who shot and killed a home invader after taking a hit to the arm from a 22lr.
I know a badguy who took 3 .45 ACP Gold Dots who wasn’t slowed down much, if any. As usual, individual anecdotes don’t mean much of anything. Maybe you should try understanding those statistics.

threegun
May 19, 2008, 05:44 PM
And you success in a gun fight might fall to a large number of other issues also.

And this fact changes our disagreement how. These other factors might always be present but the problem of lack of penetration and larger wound channel won't be.

There is just one problem here, one that is so common with you that I put you on “ignore” for quite a while---I never said that or anything like that

By supporting mouseguns and saying that they are "adequate" you are accepting the known limitations of those guns which are lack of penetration and small wound channel to name a couple. You never uttered the words but you are clearly a mousegun fan.

It seems strange to me that you think you can make generalized comments like that about my life based on a relatively few postings on the internet. However, most peoples lives revolve around statistics. I may be a bit more cognizant of that fact, or more willing to admit to it, but each of us every day makes dozens, maybe hundreds, of decisions based on what we think the likely outcome will be.

As you noticed I said "it seems". You have been posting for a couple of years now (that I have been reading)and this has been a common occurrence. Not that its bad mind you just that you seem to allow stats to dictate your actions an awful lot.

threegun
May 19, 2008, 07:05 PM
What has that got to do with anything? It is not a black-white yes-no issue, it is an issue with a lot of gray, cost/benefit analysis, etc. And again, your lack of understanding about statistics is showing. An overall lifetime chance of needing a gun is actually fairly good. The chances of needing to shoot someone with it are much smaller, and that the caliber will play a big part is even smaller.

The majority of civilians don't carry. Of those who don't only a small percentage have a need for a gun. I agree that the likly hood is even smaller that caliber will play a big part. Since both are unlikely statistically I asked you why do you carry yet feel caliber is not relevant. I think thats a fair question.

I know a badguy who took 3 .45 ACP Gold Dots who wasn’t slowed down much, if any. As usual, individual anecdotes don’t mean much of anything. Maybe you should try understanding those statistics.

Now given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a mouse? Thats my point. You won't risk going unarmed but will risk needing more power at a dire time.

Chui
May 19, 2008, 10:09 PM
Keep in mind that a motivated dog can:

(A) Move a helluva lot quicker than any human
(B) Dish out tremendous punishment in short order
(C) Hard to hit when they are covering ground as quickly
(D) Absorb a lot of punishment - more, it seems at times than a human

Caliber WILL matter on a large, fast moving, highly motivated dog; just as much as will placement. I don't know how many here work with dogs but they are extremely quick. It boggles the mind to see something the size of a Rottweiler 'drop it in gear' and cover ground at what appears to be twice the rate of a highly trained athlete. IFF (if and only if) it has targeted you as "IT" you'll have only one shot (pun intended) and he's got a hold on you.

I cannot put a large enough exclamation on this: CARRY AN ADEQUATE PISTOL. TRAIN Proper "Point" Shooting as well as Surgical Speed Shooting because that's just what it's going to be (assuming you have a date with a highly motivated Rottie, American Bulldog or German Shepherd).

If you "cannot" deal with this advice then run at a local High School Track.

Pepper spray also works well (iff you are upwind of the beast) - I'd always carry this. It's on my bicycles and I carry it - especially when I choose to go walking. It gives me a less than lethal option.

An aside: Here in SE Michigan an elderly couple was mauled to death by a pack of American Bulldogs. I think it was primarily two but another was involved. Your Derringer/micropistol would not serve you well.

A fighting blade is comforting but you'll take a bite to use it. But you may take a bite anyway...

Good Luck

P.S.

Several support your claim that you cannot run with a pistol in FL in the summer. I disagree: J Frame and fanny pack. I know because I'm from South Louisiana. I ran track in HS and I still jog (though mostly I do track workouts on a track).

As for the "11 + 1 .45 ACP pistol"; well, that's ridiculous. No one advocated a full-sized service pistol...

".22LR in your breast pocket is better than the (I'll say 1911) in the car..." I will call BS on this one. You SHOULD have brought the (I'll say 1911 though it could be the M&P, Glock, Sig, XD...) the PROPER tool for the job and the job is engaging several highly motivated persons or a highly motivated Presa Canario or Fila Brasilero. To me that would be a full-sized pistol and a solid fighting blade on the weak side.

Look, I know everyone is unique and what is "adequate" for some is "too much" for some and "inferior" for others. Carry what you wish. If you're comfortable then go with it. However, expect "heated" discussions as to the logic by others who feel haat micro/mouse pistols have no place in their collections.

shep854
May 20, 2008, 06:31 AM
One other point about dogs; I understand that they don't sense pain the way humans do (especially when aroused), and they certainly don't know that they are supposed to flop over when shot. So if the dog is in "fight" mode, don't expect it to stop until it is DEAD, or so many bones have been broken it cannot move, though the fighting breeds are likely to keep trying, so stay out of biting range.

Also, as calibers are discussed, keep firmly in mind that handguns (even the big bores) are WEAK, in the absolute sense. The .45 has about the energy of a pitched baseball.

Chui
May 20, 2008, 06:52 AM
Valid points about dogs, shep.

The energy isn't what does the damage, per se. It's the ability to penetrate skin, muscle, bone and organs. Sectional density and adequate impact velocity to get the projectile through the above mentioned is what does the damage. Yes, ultimately (from a Quantum Physics perspective) it's energy, but the comparison with the baseball isn't a good comparsion since the baseball (which would put you down temporarily) will not penetrate your skin: too much surface area.

shep854
May 20, 2008, 06:59 AM
Chui, you're right. A bullet concentrates the energy onto a much smaller area; hence it penetrates and does its damage. I used the analogy to hopefully help people understand that handguns are not all we want to think they are. And they are very useful, as long as we remain aware of their limitations.

dawg23
May 20, 2008, 06:23 PM
Decide which gun you need. This should be the one you shoot well, that holds a reasonable amount of ammo (you decide what's reasonable) and has a reasonable chance of firing bullets that will penetrate adequately and expand reliably (you define reasonable, adequately and reliably).

Then carry the dang gun. Get a good belt. Get a good holster.

Dress around the gun. Quit wearing the tight tank tops - get a looser fitting patterned shirt.

Quit looking for the "magic solution." You know .......the tiny piece of crap that drops in your shirt pocket. The one that you rationalize carrying by saying you can't conceal a Glock 19 in hot weather. The one you carry 'cause you've been told it will take care oof 90% of the potential threats you my face.

Carry the gun that you're gonna wish you had.

If I can wear a G19 OWB in south Louisiana, year round, all day, every day.......you can too.

shep854
May 20, 2008, 06:53 PM
Hear, hear, sirrah, hear, hear!! Well said, Dawg23!

"Carry the gun you're gonna wish you had"

That 120mm tank gun loaded with beehive will be kinda hard to cover with my shirt, so I'll continue to be happy with the PF-9 in my pant pocket. Ain't choice grand?

threegun
May 21, 2008, 07:52 AM
Shep, Can't hide a 120MM on my body. Can't even hide my AR which is the gun I wish I had in an armed confrontation. Of the guns I can conceal on my person I carry the one I would be wishing for in a confrontation.

Dawg23 sums up my position in a much more articulate way than I could have ever done. If you disagree thats fine carry your mousegun. However to poke fun at his position, especially with that silly comment is crazy.

shep854
May 21, 2008, 08:08 AM
Threegun, I too am in full agreement with Dawg23's statement, and fully respect each person's choice (even to NOT carry, if they choose). I also believe, though, that we can take issues too seriously, and loose needed perspective. I was poking just as much fun at myself as at anyone else. Like I said, "Ain't choice grand?"

My choice was based on my evaluation of my own situation. Your choice is your own, and is just as good as mine. I most sincerely hope none of us EVER have to put our individual choice to the test of actual combat.

threegun
May 21, 2008, 09:41 AM
Shep, Agreed.

I most sincerely hope none of us EVER have to put our individual choice to the test of actual combat.

My litmus tests for what carry gun is right for me is potentially having to actually fight with the gun. Thats why I won't carry a mouse unless bigger is not possible.

primlantah
May 21, 2008, 10:15 AM
My litmus tests for what carry gun is right for me is potentially having to actually fight with the gun. Thats why I won't carry a mouse unless bigger is not possible.

exactly... unless a bigger one is not possible. Some of you prefer uneven jogging with hip or nerve problems from a big gun. some of us prefer a comfortable and relaxing jog without the weight of a heavy chunk of steel itching to rust from sweat. thats the beauty of a small low cost gun... its light, takes less volume, and is cheap/mostly plastic.

A dog doesnt have to be shot and killed if it chases you. A water bottle with ammonia will likely deter a dog.

To me a mouse or snub is for 2 legged targets at close distance and not much good elsewhere. Yes, a service will do the job.... but a 380 wont break skin and bone at <21 feet? I mean, arent most gang/mafia shootings done with mouse guns or 22s? I have known some unsavory types and the only guns they have ever fired were .32 or less.

The Tourist
May 21, 2008, 11:00 AM
I have known some unsavory types and the only guns they have ever fired were .32 or less.

At the end of the day, don't you guys really feel that there are "horses for courses"?

"Unsavory types." If I was shooting for money, I'd take my Ruger 22/45 anytime. I've probably fired that pistol more than any other gun I have ever used. I don't think I could miss.

If I was in an IPSC style match utilizing scoring by maximum or minimum calibers, I'd use a Tussey pistol. Those are built to that kind of spec.

Varmint shooting? I have a flat-top with a Shilen barrel.

And truth be told, sometimes if I hear a bump in the night, I take a knife--and I leave the lights off.

But I feel I have to address the OP in somewhat of a traditional manner for the purposes of the thread. To that end, I'd carry a CZ 83. I could sweat on it, drop it, fend off dogs, take on multiple aggressors and not feel a pang when the arresting officer took it as evidence.

I even have a nice comfortable Bianchi holster for it that dates from the late 1970's.

ISC
May 21, 2008, 11:25 AM
I would rather not carry at all than carry a pistol that weighed more than a few ounces. I tried running with my keltec 9mm and it's too uncomfortable. On top of that, I don't see how you can conceal a pistol much bigger than a subcompact in comfortable running clothes when it's in the 90's.

It's not a matter of gut vs gun or not being able to handle the extra load. I ruck with a 60 pound pack about once a week. Running is different though. I have to take a PT test twice a year that counts towards promotion points and plays significantly in the selection for which soldiers get selected for schools. I want to be light and unencombered, and I would love to see how you do that with a .45, spare mag, back up pistol, cell phone, and collapsable baton. Lets be realistic, I've run thousands of miles over the years and the incident I related is the only time I was actually concerned I'd get bitten. A little .22 is plenty for a low scale threat like an over protective and excited dog and many would say even that is overkill.

I'm not saying that I doubt any of the members here that claim to work out while carrying large pistols, I just have never met anyone else in real life during my years as a soldier, collector, or cop that did.

I really think that a blank firing gun would scare off most dogs that are just satisfying their chase instinct and at worst would take a nip at your ankle. I choose not to get nipped and a little .22 served my purpose just fine.

threegun
May 21, 2008, 12:19 PM
ISC, Ditch the spare mag, back up, and baton. Anyway I live in one of the most humid and hot state in the union.....Florida. I can and have jogged while armed with a mid and full sized combat pistols. It isn't hard although carrying a NAA mini revolver is easier. Your choice is to carry small and thats cool. You will only regret that decision if your NAA fails to protect you. Those odds are slim. I just prefer to remove as much regret as possible before an incident.

David Armstrong
May 21, 2008, 08:50 PM
And this fact changes our disagreement how.
It should hopefully clarify it. There are many factors that go into success in a gunfight. Evidence indicates that of those factors caliber is probably the least important. For you to suggest otherwise is a distortion.
You never uttered the words....
So, just like I said, you made something up and then tried to accuse me of saying it. That is, at the least, dishonest. Furthermore it indicates (to me at least) that you cannot reasonably counter what was actually said, otherwise there would be no need to make the stuff up.
...but you are clearly a mousegun fan.
Certainly. Just like I'm a big-bore fan, a full-size fighting gun fan, a medium-caliber fan, a carbine fan, and so on. I am a fan of whatever works. In most DGU situations a mousegun will do that. In other situations a loaded AR-15 with a Remington 870 in support might not be enough. Every carry decision is a compromise, even if it is choosing between a Glock 17 and a Glock 19.
Not that its bad mind you just that you seem to allow stats to dictate your actions an awful lot.
They don't dictate near as much as they guide. And as I mentioned, we all do that. Some of us have more realistic understanding of the stats and what they mean, some have more information to more accurately do the analysis, and so on. I always find it interesting when people apparently advocate a course of action based on “let’s ignore the facts” and/or “the less I know the better.”
Since both are unlikely statistically I asked you why do you carry yet feel caliber is not relevant. I think thats a fair question.
The lack of relevance is to your (apparent) failure to understand how one processes information. The statistical likelihood of an event occurring is not the sole (or even sometimes the primary) factor in the decision-making process.
Now given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a mouse? Thats my point.

Now, given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a bigger caliber? That’s my point. Caliber just doesn’t make that much difference; everybody picks a point at which they compromise based on what they perceive as their risk is and how much it costs to relieve that risk to a certain level. If you want to carry a big gun and a major caliber go right ahead, but don’t think that somebody choosing a different point of compromise is going to be impaired in any significant way for the typical DGU.

David Armstrong
May 21, 2008, 08:56 PM
Carry the gun that you're gonna wish you had.
That's a very nice platitude, but one that simply does not work. You compromise on what you carry. As mentioned, I might wish I had an AR, or a shotgun, or a 6" .44 Magnum, depending on the fight. Wishes are nice, but they sometimes run head-on into the wall of reality. You choose to carry a Glock 19. I might argue that is a compromise over the Glock 17, or the Glock 21. I'll assume there is some reason you have made the choice to go with fewer rounds or smaller caliber. Fortunately our choices (compromises) rarely matter in DGU situations.

Chui
May 21, 2008, 09:13 PM
JEESH, RUN AT A HIGH SCHOOL TRACKS AND LEAVE YOUR PISTOLS IN YOUR SAFES. KAPEESH???

I mean, if you weren't accosted yesterday or the day before or the year before that or the decade prior then it CAN'T happen tomorrow, right???

I will go to my grave believing that one should take the pistol that one shoots best (and, NO, I'm not speaking about a Ruger Mk II). If it's a 1911 or a M&P9 or a Glock 19 then for God's sake carry it. If you can't take a defensive pistol class and put 500 rounds through that one day course and you can't shoot 200 rounds at a sitting with it then... why have it? It's not likely that you/me/we will RISE to the occasion. I don't accept that. Not at all. No practice, no results. Little practice, poor results.

A dog doesnt have to be shot and killed if it chases you. A water bottle with ammonia will likely deter a dog.

LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you. And we're not talking about "chasing" you. We should be looking at worst case scenarios. How about being ATTACKED by a dog nearly your own size? An example: When I was a kid I bought myself what we called "a genuine article": a gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier. He weighed about 70 lbs grown but I usually kept him at about 62 lbs by running him on a treadmill and on the road since I ran track and enjoyed running and let's face it: who will try you?? Well our postman (a close friend of the family) was ill and the replacement worker was deathly afraid of dogs. My dog would always bark at the postman even though there was no ill intent. We had the postman give him a vanilla wafer that we kept on the window ledge. But if you don't know dogs and are afraid of them, well, it's all "aggression", right? Well, Nimrod the replacement postal worker pepper sprayed because he was barking at him at the fence. It's a damned good thing I was home because by the time I got outside he had broken through the wires of the chainlink fence large enough to get almost all of his shoulders through and he was trying mightily - to good effect - to get at the terrified postal employee. By the time I grabbed him by essentially "the waist" his shoulders were through... and there would have been HELL to pay had I not gotten there in time. There's no doubt in my mind what would have happened if 62 pounds of lean, motivated Pit Bull got his highly ****** off jaws on that guy. He wet himself. I wanted to beat the Hell out of him but instead called the police.

It may seem "extreme" but feces happens, fellas. You've no idea what's just around the corner and neither do I. But rest assured just as there are predatory humans in this world there are predatory dogs, too. And just because you've not been bitten (yet) does not mean that you'll finish your life without one.

Good "luck" (i.e., Luck = preparation meeting opportunity)

David Armstrong
May 22, 2008, 03:44 AM
LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you.
But you do, whether one likes to admit it or not. Most of the time one is betting their well being on "likely". We drive to work because it is "likely" we won't get in a wreck. We go places on vacation because it is "likely" we will have a good time instead of getting mauled by a bear or drown in the lake or whatever. We carry a particular gun/caliber combination because we think it is "likely" to handle our needs.

primlantah
May 22, 2008, 09:40 AM
We should be looking at worst case scenarios.

Thats the word people! Get your Abrams tanks in case shtf. If your running in the park you might be approached by a band of mercenaries in the worst case scenario. :rolleyes:

+1 David Armstrong

The Tourist
May 22, 2008, 10:41 AM
What exactly classifies as a "worst case" scenario.

For example, about one month ago on cable they showed some security camera footage of the Angels and Mongols duking it out in a public gambling casino. One of them pulled a gun, one person was shot to death.

Well, my wife and my SIL like to go to an Indian gaming casino nearby for the afternoons until their roll of pennies is gone. They also have a time-share in Vegas from a deceased uncle.

So, the worst case scenario for my wife is being caught in the crossfire of a national biker gang war.

My wife is a suburban teacher who's never even gotten a parking ticket. She's so squeaky clean I cannot figure out how we got together in the first place.

So let's go to the other extreme. The worst I've seen is pool cues and knives. Got my nose broken twice watching drunken bubbas spit up all over themselves.

By the parameters of the debate, my wife has a greater scenario risk. I'm not sure they sell GE mini-guns to teachers.

Chui
May 22, 2008, 12:33 PM
"LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you."

But you do, whether one likes to admit it or not. Most of the time one is betting their well being on "likely". We drive to work because it is "likely" we won't get in a wreck. We go places on vacation because it is "likely" we will have a good time instead of getting mauled by a bear or drown in the lake or whatever. We carry a particular gun/caliber combination because we think it is "likely" to handle our needs.
No, I choose to carry a full sized pistol with at least one magazine... No "mouse guns" here. Yes, it's easier in Michigan - it was probably 45 degrees last night, but I travel home (South Louisiana) during the summer and I work with my father's construction crew while I'm there - with either a full-sized, all steel Gov't Model with two extra magazines or my Smith & Wesson M&P with one extra.

When I'm out in the field I have a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun for curiously aggressive Black Bears.

It's all called COMMON SENSE where I'm from. Your perceptions are obviously different.

Thats the word people! Get your Abrams tanks in case shtf. If your running in the park you might be approached by a band of mercenaries in the worst case scenario.
Yep, it's attitudes like this that catch people wholly unaware and unprepared. "I didn't think it could happen..." Go sing it to a frog.

So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect???

primlantah
May 22, 2008, 01:07 PM
So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect??

because the firearms i choose are not for the worst case scenario. I accept there is some possibility... but i wont go for a jog with an ak-74 over my shoulder.

As stated earlier, no one here is saying a mouse gun is better... were saying a mouse gun is a tool for a job that the bigger weapons dont fit in.

you can go secure yourself an attack helicopter incase the neighbor wants your wallet... but my neighbor wouldnt be getting that easy smash and grab with a mouse lodging a little pea in his guts. the pistol is to give an edge when someone doesnt get the idea your dont want to be messed with... not gurantee you can kill 10 armored guys with black rifles.

if you want to talk about preparing for a revolution, your words have merit. Were talking about getting to the mail box.

Mannlicher
May 22, 2008, 03:00 PM
David Agreed. Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.


.....or at least we hope they will.

However, with a lack of dependable data to prove that point, and while the choice of a mouse works for you, it does not work for me.

That said, I don't feel the need to carry a Lupara on a daily basis, but I do draw the line with a J Frame Smith or a compact 9MM semi auto. :)

Chui
May 22, 2008, 03:10 PM
because the firearms i choose are not for the worst case scenario. I accept there is some possibility... but i wont go for a jog with an ak-74 over my shoulder.

This is a "fool's argument". Where has it been advocated to carry a carbine??? Is it legal to carry an AKM concealed where you live?? I didn't think so...

The "debate" is whether or not it is wise to carry something that you would actually WANT to have if you were confronted with deadly force or carry something that is ubber convenient and less than ideal.

And last I checked being physically assaulted by someone(s) or something(s) with intent to do grave bodily injury or worse would, in fact, be a "worst case scenario". The probability and the possibility are entirely different. The end result is the same. The kind of thinking being advocated leaves too much of the door open for many scenarios - multiple assaulters, highly motivated assaulter(s), very combative dogs. I feel it's much better to have a proper fighting pistol and not need it than the reverse...

(usmc)optic
May 22, 2008, 06:15 PM
the gun i carry, 45
my house gun pistol grip 12 guage(7 shot, 18 inch barrel)

Chui
May 22, 2008, 08:38 PM
I've had an epiphany. I'll just get a tattoo of a mouse and a Kel-Tec on each bicep and it'll act as a talisman. Now I can leave all of the polymer & steel at home. :D

shep854
May 22, 2008, 08:45 PM
FWIW, my Kel-Tec PF-9 could be referred to as a "rat gun," since it has a bit more bite than a mouse gun, being a 9x19.:cool:

The K-T P-11 is 9x19 also, and can be easily converted to .40 S&W (then you have a P-40) ;).

I am not a mouse gun fan, either. 9x19 is as low as I care to go, given a choice. I am also going to shoot it in IDPA matches. Even though I do my best to NEVER have to use it in earnest, I try to be prepared if the worst comes.

Chui
May 23, 2008, 05:36 AM
Good for you, shep. Few who carry micro-pistols ever really run them.

From the CPL classes I've assisted in they don't seem to last. That would be my first comment and the micro-pistols, as a genre, are difficult to really run: securing a good grip, runing failure drills, magazine changes and engaging and effectively hitting multiple targets (A zone) beyond, say, 7 yds at speed. I've tried them in El Presidente drills & "mini' El Presidente drills and they do not give me much confidence, but neither does a J frame.

Both are intended as Back-Up weapons. All silliness aside I'd like to see you (and others) transition to something else.

Some I've found to be concealable and more than adequate for the type of shooting you're considering:

HK P7
HK P2000
HK P30

essentially something much easier to draw, shoot multiple targets with multiple shots at speed and keeping all shots within a fist-sized group, reload and run failure drills at speed, under pressure.

You'll find yourself with more confidence in your ability and, at least for me, I began to actually enjoy carrying. YMMV

shep854
May 23, 2008, 07:22 AM
In nearly 20 years of CCW, I have gone from full-size (Colt Commander) to the rat gun.

The PF-9 has a remarkably easy trigger, for a DOA. I do most of my shooting at 10 yd, right hand, both, left. At 10 yd, keeping shots center-mass is pretty easy.

The IDPA thing is to help imprint tactics in my responses. While IDPA was conceived to reflect the real world, the temptation to let it become another game is strong. I doubt I will ever win a match, since simple speed is not my goal. While the timer does add some pressure, I strive to do things like use available cover effectively or keep distance from the targets, as much as I would want to do if I were actually shooting for my life. For example, at the last (well, actually the first) match I shot, there was a stage which was simply draw and shoot 10 rd at 5 targets (threat determined by distance). There just happened to be a couple of barrels standing at the firing line, to place gear on while preparing. When the timer sounded, I dropped behind them for cover, then shot. And so on through the match. As expected, I came in dead last, but if I build reactions that could save my bacon, it is worthwhile.

primlantah
May 23, 2008, 09:27 AM
I have gone from full-size (Colt Commander) to the rat gun

I know the feeling... though im lacking the years. My first gun was a doublestack 45 and my last gun was a pm9. nothin wrong with that :D

Chui
May 23, 2008, 10:36 AM
For those who like to jog off of the beaten path please take a look here. This just in from Southern Indiana:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ind-canids/

Chui
May 23, 2008, 12:30 PM
From www.getoffthex.com forum. You have to register so I simply cut and pasted some responses from the LE guys who are either dog handlers, agitators or had run-ins with aggressive dogs while on duty.

National Geo clip on different styles of dog attack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc

70% of this clip is valuable

I was chased down by a chow mix. That f%$#$ closed the gap so fast that he got a piece of me before I could touch him. He went high then low. I won, but shudder to think about what a trained or truly badass dog could do.

I shot a 90lb psycho-mutt about four years ago, that incident still makes me twitch. I was going around the back of a house on a domestic call, and as I rounded the corner I looked down and saw two big eyes and a really big set of teeth. Started backpeddling, and promptly stepped on some snow and fell flat on my butt. That dog was on me insanely quick. I fired the first round when he was about two feet from the soles of my boots, it missed him slightly low. Second round skipped off his chest plate and hit him in the nuts (sorry). I was pulling the trigger for #3 when he clamped down on my right foot, breaking two toes and destroying a nearly new boot. Now I had two problems - get Cujo there off my foot and not shoot myself. #'s 3, 4, 5, and 6 went into a fist size group centered on his face, finally dropping him. #7 was on the way when the lights went out, and went high and hit a tree in the backyard.

That has been, thus far and knock on wood, the only time I have been injured on duty, but hey, I did it with class.

In my experience as a Police K9 Handler, I can tell you that out of the (14) apprehensions my dog has had in the last four years, every BG didn't know what the f*ck to do when the dog latched on. When the BG fights the dog, it kicks in the dogs "fight drive"... then your really f~*%$d! When the dog, at least mine, is in "fight drive" the "out" **** is just that... ****! When the dog reaches that level, you have to choke them off the bite... its almost like a shark at a feeding frenzy. I've seen guys square up to the dog as the dog is sent, analyzing how they are going to defeat 30 mph of pure ass hammer, EVERY time, they lose, bad! So... if you don't have a gun to shoot a charging dog... well, you're just screwed... PERIOD!

What many folks tend to not understand, or underestimate, is these dogs can kill you.

Now, is it likely? Maybe, maybe not, depending on various factors. Is it possible? Yes. These dogs bite with enough strength to shatter bone and destroy nerves, tissue, etc. A single bite, without the dog thrashing, can leave you permanantly disabled. Most often the harder you fight, the harder the dog is going to fight back. If they latch on, you've got literally fractions of a second to fix the problem before you have a very bad day.

The best answer is not to get into a situation where you'd have to deal with it. Use your situational awareness and the tools you have available, and put obstacles between you and the dog. Read the last as: hard obstacles. A ****ing screen door isn't going to work; neither is a 3ft fence.

After that, your best option is a firearm, and a fairly large one at that, with a shot to the brain bucket. As others have stated, a trained & motivated working dog intent on ruining your day can withstand an incredible amount of damage before they finally die.

The "water jug on a rope" idea is fine, but having someone pull it isn't going to be fast enough. I'd recommend attaching it to a vehicle or a 4 wheeler to get it some speed.

I'd also suggest http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/192106881/m/5121068773/p/2 from last year, with your focus on the replies from the resident K-9 handlers.

Phil

OCs does not allways work, so do not count on it as a stand alone technique. I have sprayed / engaged several dogs of various breeds during work and have the OCS fail. I mean godd full on full muzzle / hot sauce donwn the throat and for some it worked and for ours it limited effect. A highly motivated mongrol can bite and open up a leg, arm and or hand for stitchs just as well as a pit bull and or other breed.

After my first OCS failure, I learned my lesson.

shep854
May 23, 2008, 07:31 PM
Chui, THAT is scary!

I have had enough interaction with dogs that I can usually "read" them; sound, posture, hair, ears, etc. Recently, though, I had encounter with a friend's pit bull that was plain eery (scary eery). My friend got the pit when she (dog) was about a year and a half old, so she had already been conditioned. During the evening, is seemed that I had "made friends" with the pit; she was playful and friendly.

Just before I left, I was standing and talking to my friend. The dog was near my feet. I glanced down, and suddenly, there was a change in her. She didn't move a muscle, but her eyes went cold. I had done nothing provocative, but suddenly she went aggressive. My friend saw it also, and immediately pulled her back. Until that night, I have always been able predict, to some degree, a dog's behavior; even the pit of another friend who had raised her from weaning.

Chui
May 24, 2008, 07:37 AM
Yes, I was raised around "bulldogs" (i.e., APBTs or American Pit Bull Terriers) but these dogs were from dogfighting bloodlines (and stock) so we never had any issues with them around humans but they'd inhale other dogs - except for the incident with the reserve mail carrier who sprayed him with mace.

I've asked a friend and police officer to put on a dog sleeve and allow his working dog to attack me such that I can "see for self" and use this as some sort of "fear innoculation". I don't think it's a good idea from a liability perspective, however.

I love dogs and they never cease to amaze me when playing with them how agile and quick they are. Their ability to accelerate and change direction in mind boggling. I always remind myself that "a predator is showing signs of affection" as opposed to "hey, the nice dog wants to be petted". I adore them just the same but I've witnessed, first hand, the raw athleticism of dogs - from my own gamebred Pit Bulls (words defy their ability) to my cousin's French Bulldog-Standard Poodle cross (jaw dropping agility and strength). My brother owned a working strain Rottweiler pup and Caesar and I got very close as I'd always encourage him to wrestle when he was little. By the time he was 8 months old he must have weighed 70 lbs or more and he while I had him on his back wrestling with him a neighbor walked up. The speed in which he rolled, jumped and grabbed the guy's coat (only because he hit me on his launch) left me cold.

Again, my biggest concern is to be ATTACKED not by two thugs though that would be horrible but to have something like an American Bulldog or Rottweiler deciding that I don't belong on the planet. ALL of your martial arts/pistol handling/pistol shooting will be severely tested. In fact, it's one of my recurring nightmares: American Bulldog interrupts whatever dream I'm having; his head is as large as mine and his teeth are the size of my thumbs. It aint pretty. This is why I've repeatedlyt suggested running at a local track and riding your bike with a full size pistol. That Labrador Retreiver down the street may well be friendly, but I cannot read their minds - only their body language - but this afternoon it may decide that you deserve nothing less than a full bore attack. Yes, you may be bitten but I'd like to read here that you vanquished it (i.e., DRT = dead right there). And just as your experience I had a Bassett Hound do the same damned thing to me. It snarled and snapped at me. Thank God I was really paying attention. I was ******. I don't know what upset me more: me for misreading him or the dog for trying to bite ME, of all persons.

Stay safe,

threegun
May 26, 2008, 03:36 PM
Mannlicher, Some folks are fixated on statistics and probabilities. They choose to carry despite the high probability of never having to use the gun. Then they get crazy when we prepare for something slightly more improbable (having to force compliance by causing massive trauma and blood loss to the bad guy).

All IMO to justify not being willing, able, or both to carry bigger.

I wouldn't go into bear country armed with a 9mm for the same reason I won't rely on a mouse against two legged critters.

Lets break this down in probabilities. I am not statistically likely to be attacked by a bear despite being in bear country.....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does threaten me just the sight of my 9mm might frighten it away....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does attempt an attack firing a few rounds might frighten away the bear....so a 9mm is adequate. The last and most unlikely event is having to stop the bear still most sane folks who choose to carry in bear country carry bear medicine calibers. Self defense on the street to me is no different.

The above is for those who carry mice on purpose only. for those who simply cannot carry larger anything is better than nothing.

David Armstrong
May 26, 2008, 06:57 PM
So, the worst case scenario for my wife is being caught in the crossfire of a national biker gang war.
And do you really think that pulling out a high-cap large caliber gun and starting shooting at either or both sides in this event will improve the chances of survival??

David Armstrong
May 26, 2008, 07:07 PM
No, I choose to carry a full sized pistol with at least one magazine
But you are still betting on "likely." You are saying that it is likel.y that whatever you encounter will be solved by that particualr gun. You won't need at least 2 more bullets, or a different design, or anything else. That particular gun, with that particular ammo, and that particualr number of rounds, will "likely" take care of you.
When I'm out in the field I have a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun for curiously aggressive Black Bears.
You prove my point. You don't carry that normally becasue it is not likely you will need it. In a particualr situation you do choose to carry it becaseu you feel it is likely to be what is needed. You apprently do not feel thta it is likely you will need "either a full-sized, all steel Gov't Model with two extra magazines or my Smith & Wesson M&P with one extra" or you would carry them.
It's all called COMMON SENSE where I'm from. Your perceptions are obviously different.
One of the most interesting things about "common sense" is that it is not that common, and quite ften it doesn't make sense. I think we have that here. You don't get to argue that one doesn't base their decisions on what is likely and then discuss how you select different guns for different situations. Somewhat contradictory.
So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect???
Because that scenario is so rare and improbable that it just doesn't concern most folks. That is why few carry full size guns with multiple reloads and so on, yet manage to do just fine.

David Armstrong
May 26, 2008, 07:11 PM
or at least we hope they will.
No, we don't hope they will, we know that they will. We have tons of data that show us just exactly that. There is no guessing here. No study of DGU incidents has ever indicated that caliber plays a significant role in the outcome of the event.

David Armstrong
May 26, 2008, 07:19 PM
Lets break this down in probabilities. I am not statistically likely to be attacked by a bear despite being in bear country.....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does threaten me just the sight of my 9mm might frighten it away....so a 9mm is adequate. If a bear does attempt an attack firing a few rounds might frighten away the bear....so a 9mm is adequate. The last and most unlikely event is having to stop the bear still most sane folks who choose to carry in bear country carry bear medicine calibers. Self defense on the street to me is no different.
Once again your inability to understand basic statistcal analysis, much less actually use statistics in an informed manner, shows itself. Sigh.
Then they get crazy when we prepare for something slightly more improbable (having to force compliance by causing massive trauma and blood loss to the bad guy).
Ummm, not to point out the obvious, but the ones here getting crazy seem to be the ones that are opposed to mouseguns, not those that recognize their utility. None of the pro-mousegun side is griping about what the others carry, or insulting their choices, or trying to convince them how wrong they are, etc.

threegun
May 27, 2008, 12:16 PM
None of the pro-mousegun side is griping about what the others carry, or insulting their choices, or trying to convince them how wrong they are, etc.

We aren't trying to convince the pro mousegun guys that they are wrong as much as influence folks on the fence to choose bigger than a mouse when possible.

I understand you perfectly David. I just disagree with you. Its hard to prove on paper of course but I feel a larger caliber could have swayed events in many shoot outs. Thats why I love your use of stats but only to an extent. There is a point were factors like a bullets ability to penetrate deeply and smash bones could have weighted heavier on the outcome. I know of 3 semi personal events were caliber might have changed the outcome. One I posted earlier.....had the bad guy hit the good lady with a heavier caliber (than a 22lr) she might have missed or been less accurate in her return fire. #2 My uncle, many moons ago, fired 3 rounds through the front door of his home at a man breaking his door down. The 38 special rounds penetrated the solid core door and struck the bad guy ending the attack. A 22 or 25 may not have been able to do so. #3 A friend visiting Miami for a family wedding got lost in the Liberty City area. While stopped at a light (pinned in by front and back traffic) a bad guy broke the passenger window with a pipe. My friend fired a single round through the metal between the front passenger door and rear glass. The round penetrated the metal and entered the bad guys lung ending the attack and allowing my friend and his wife to escape to call police. Could the 22 or 25 round have done the same? Here I have 3 semi personal examples were caliber might have effected the outcome. Yet I'm supposed to believe that caliber isn't a bigger deal than you and your stats indicate.

Once again your inability to understand basic statistcal analysis, much less actually use statistics in an informed manner, shows itself. Sigh.


Again I understand you. I understand the stats. I just disagree. I also understand that a 22lr or 25acp fired from a pistol will not penetrate an 11/2 of solid wood (my uncles 38 did). I understand the difference in pain between having a round bounce off your bone compared to having a broken bone (could have effected #1). Considering most of the time I spend out and about is either in a restaurant/other store or in my car it is nice to have some ability to penetrate.

Stats are great but the real life around me seems to suggest that bigger is better as it relates to the mouse vs full sized carry gun calibers.

David Armstrong
May 27, 2008, 12:44 PM
We aren't trying to convince the pro mousegun guys that they are wrong as much as influence folks on the fence to choose bigger than a mouse when possible.
LOL! A classic example of doublespeak!
Its hard to prove on paper of course but I feel a larger caliber could have swayed events in many shoot outs.
There is the basic difference. I tend to put aside feelings when given facts. I prefer to base decisions on reality instead of make-believe.
There is a point were factors like a bullets ability to penetrate deeply and smash bones could have weighted heavier on the outcome.
Sure, just like there are times when factors like smallness and ease of carry could have weighed heavier. The key is "could have".
Here I have 3 semi personal examples were caliber might have effected the outcome. Yet I'm supposed to believe that caliber isn't a bigger deal than you and your stats indicate.
You don't have to believe it, your own examples show it. Note the repeated and common use of the word "might" in there? Your uncle MIGHT have chased off the BG with a .22. Do you think you would continue beating down a door if somebody is shooting at you from the other side? Or would you be yelling "Hey man, what caliber is that gun? I need to decide if I should go away or keep getting shot at!"
Again I understand you. I understand the stats.
If you understand them you should not continue to use them incorrectly to try to prove a point. That goes beyond disagreement. That is dishonesty, assuming that you really do understand what you are saying.
Stats are great but the real life around me seems to suggest that bigger is better as it relates to the mouse vs full sized carry gun calibers.
As we've seen before, your suggestions sometimes seem somewhat flawed. Better is based on many factors. Self defense is based on many factors. What is better for self defense and DGU combines those factors. Caliber is towards the bottom of those factors according to all the research I've seen. If you wish to carry bigger/more/whatever that is fine, but please don't try to suggest the smaller guns have not shown themselves to be just as effective in virtually all DGU situations.

primlantah
May 27, 2008, 01:00 PM
You don't have to believe it, your own examples show it. Note the repeated and common use of the word "might" in there? Your uncle MIGHT have chased off the BG with a .22. Do you think you would continue beating down a door if somebody is shooting at you from the other side? Or would you be yelling "Hey man, what caliber is that gun? I need to decide if I should go away or keep getting shot at!"

LOL! Maybe he should tattoo 50BMG on his arm to show bad guys that he is ready for anything from man to airplane.

Epyon
May 27, 2008, 02:14 PM
I have a few friends who have dogs that have never heard a firearm being shot, yet the moment any of us are ever handling firearms in a room, the dogs will usually clear the room in a hurry. These are different dogs owned by different people.


Epyon

primlantah
May 27, 2008, 02:21 PM
I have a few friends who have dogs that have never heard a firearm being shot, yet the moment any of us are ever handling firearms in a room, the dogs will usually clear the room in a hurry. These are different dogs owned by different people.

my dog is the same way... never been exposed to gunshots but she is afraid of guns.


Another point i think many people on this thread are missing.... Why did the US Military change to .223 from a .30? Why did the US Military change from .45acp to 9x19?

Chui
May 27, 2008, 02:24 PM
I have a few friends who have dogs that have never heard a firearm being shot, yet the moment any of us are ever handling firearms in a room, the dogs will usually clear the room in a hurry. These are different dogs owned by different people.


Epyon

I, too, have noticed this when dealing with MY OWN dogs or the OWNER of the dog presents a firearm.

My personal dog would snarl at you if you presented a firearm [or cigarette or alcolhol] but would whine and start to move about incessantly if in a room or would trot off to his house if outside. If you were to make ANY assertive gesture with what he perceived as a threat you'd be bitten.

Not quite the same thing, but we agree that their awareness is keener than many give them credit for.

Chui
May 27, 2008, 02:30 PM
Interestingly enough, I tried on a friend's pistol this weekend - and HK45 in an DeSantis IWB rig and guess what? It felt just fine. In fact, it was lighter than a Gov't Model - or was perceived by me - to be so.

Unless you have lower back issues or are overweight or use a rope for a belt there's no issues with carrying a full-sized pistol. Check your gear (i.e., belt and holster selections).

primlantah
May 27, 2008, 02:55 PM
according to http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf:

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed. " Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet


Walther P-22:
Penetrates 11.6-15.8 inches
http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html

KelTec p32:
Penetrates 13.3-16.4 inches
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handloaded%2085gr%20Hornady%20XTP%20(5-shot%20test).html

KelTec p3at:
Penetrated to 16.0 inches 5 out of 5 times
http://www.brassfetcher.com/95gr%20Federal%20American%20Eagle%20FMJ%20and%2095gr%20Winchester%20'WWB'%20truncated%20cone.html

5" 45acp:
Penetrated to 13.1-13.7 inches
http://www.brassfetcher.com/230%20grain%20Winchester%20SXT.html

threegun
May 27, 2008, 03:24 PM
There is the basic difference. I tend to put aside feelings when given facts. I prefer to base decisions on reality instead of make-believe.


I gave you facts that could have led to a different outcome. A 22lr really won't go through a solid door when fired from a mousegun neither will a 25acp. Whether the bad guy would have run off despite the wounds to his body is what we cannot know for sure. No make believe David but thanks for the insult anyway.

Sure, just like there are times when factors like smallness and ease of carry could have weighed heavier. The key is "could have".

How do you determine the reason something happened if there are multiple possible outcomes if something different does or doesn't happen. How can we be sure that my uncle would have survived the incident had the bullets not penetrated the door and badguy?

You don't have to believe it, your own examples show it. Note the repeated and common use of the word "might" in there? Your uncle MIGHT have chased off the BG with a .22. Do you think you would continue beating down a door if somebody is shooting at you from the other side? Or would you be yelling "Hey man, what caliber is that gun? I need to decide if I should go away or keep getting shot at!"


I don't heck no but I'm not a bad guy beating down a door. I find it humerus how the unknowns are always in your favor though.

If you understand them you should not continue to use them incorrectly to try to prove a point. That goes beyond disagreement. That is dishonesty, assuming that you really do understand what you are saying.


I don't agree with your stats. The experiences of the shootout survivors I know indicate that caliber could have made a difference. As you are aware since we cannot play each and every shootout over again with lesser or bigger calibers to see the different outcomes I must use "could have". Just as the bad guy could have run off at the sound of the shot he could have continued or pulled and fired his own gun. Neither of us can with total certainly know what would have happened. One thing is a fact opting for larger removes any doubt I have.

As we've seen before, your suggestions sometimes seem somewhat flawed. Better is based on many factors. Self defense is based on many factors. What is better for self defense and DGU combines those factors. Caliber is towards the bottom of those factors according to all the research I've seen. If you wish to carry bigger/more/whatever that is fine, but please don't try to suggest the smaller guns have not shown themselves to be just as effective in virtually all DGU situations.

In the three incidents I listed caliber was an issue IMO. In 2 of them a larger caliber allowed the shooter to reach the bad guy were it would have been all but impossible with a mouse gun caliber. In the other the mouse gun armed bad guy placed his shot on target first. The angles suggest that had he been armed with a heavier caliber his round would have smashed the humerus and entered deep into the chest cavity. Certainly better than what did happen and certainly capable of changing the outcome of the shootout. In all three the person armed with heavier won.

Caliber may be towards the bottom for you but in my limited amount of actual shootouts it played a major role IMO.

threegun
May 27, 2008, 03:47 PM
Primlantah, Try shooting a true mouse gun like NAA's mini revolvers, berettas 21, or any other "miniature" gun at the gelatin. There is a difference particularly in 22lr from ultra short barrels. Try shooting hard objects with them.

My NAA 22lr penetrates only 1 inch of a phone book. My Walther p-22 almost doubled that with the same loads.


Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.


I have been trained to shoot for the pelvic girdle if torso hits fail to stop an adversary because of what you posted above. Many top flight trainers teach the same thing because it impacts the bad guys ability to move and because the femoral artery runs through this area.

Yet another reason to carry a caliber capable of smashing bone and penetrating deep.

primlantah
May 28, 2008, 11:09 AM
3gun,

You are correct. But keep in mind my side in this debate supports both large and small calibers where ever applicable. My primary ccw is a double stacked 45. my favorite guns to carry when my 45 doesn't fit is a pm9 or my smith snub. If i owned lighter guns i would carry them occasionally too. I dont want people asking about my fanny pack or for my shirt to ride over the grip on a larger gun when jogging.. just dont want to think about it when its exercise time.

Your next argument would be this is silly because its a small caliber...but when i dont want to think about my gun i still have choices that are better than nothing. Lets face it, i love guns but i don't want to carry pounds of guns all the time...<15 ounces is fine for me in some situations... of course most other times i grab the heavy 10+1 45.

no one is saying smaller is better... we are saying smaller is sometimes more convenient and usually good enough. For the rare chance something extraordinary happens a peashooter is better than a pocket knife... I was trying to show this with my jello post earlier. Small bore does do it too... maybe not as well as large bore... but it gets there anyway. A bigger hole is a better hole in a SD situation but anything i posted above can make a hole that big enough for many(but not all) situations. Who is ready for any/everything anyway?

Try shooting a true mouse gun like NAA's mini revolvers, berettas 21, or any other "miniature" gun at the gelatin. There is a difference particularly in 22lr from ultra short barrels. Try shooting hard objects with them.

My NAA 22lr penetrates only 1 inch of a phone book. My Walther p-22 almost doubled that with the same loads.

This is a good point but people are a lot different from phone books. I recently reviewed handwritten confessions at work written by a murderer. Avoiding specifics with this...the murderer was quite successful at what he wanted to achieve and he was using a small gun.

David Armstrong
May 28, 2008, 11:57 AM
I gave you facts that could have led to a different outcome.
"Could have" is not facts, it is guesses. Just as my "could have" response is just a guess. Therefore "could have" is fairly worthless, as I can counter any "could have" from you with an equally valid "could have" from me.
22lr really won't go through a solid door when fired from a mousegun neither will a 25acp.
Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, just like a .38 or a .45. A lot will depend on the door material, the bullet design, etc.
Whether the bad guy would have run off despite the wounds to his body is what we cannot know for sure.
Agreed. WE CANNOT KNOW FOR SURE. That is the key, and that is my point. So for you to try to use that as some kind of evidence is rather faulty.
How do you determine the reason something happened if there are multiple possible outcomes if something different does or doesn't happen.
You can't. That is the point. So when you claim that the caliber was the deciding element of the incident you are wrong. What we do know is that when similar DGU incidents occur the size and caliber of the gun seem to have no effect on the outcome.
I find it humerus how the unknowns are always in your favor though.

What is perhaps more humorous is that you think of these things as "unknowns." We talk to bad guys, we do research on shootings, we study self-defense situations. The fact that BGs almost always stop an attempted entry when shot at is not unknown, it is a well-established principle.
I don't agree with your stats.
Then point out where they are wrong and how that was determined. I've got research on over 10,000 shootings and more DGUs behind me. And they are not just my stats, they are from multiple sources.
The experiences of the shootout survivors I know indicate that caliber could have made a difference. As you are aware since we cannot play each and every shootout over again with lesser or bigger calibers to see the different outcomes I must use "could have".
Maybe you must use "could have", but the rest of us don't. The rest of us can do comparisons, between events, look for commonalities, identify trends, isolate different variables, and so on. I'll give you a real easy example: BG comes in door and attempts to attack GG. GG fires a round into the air and the BG runs off. Caliber doesn't matter. Bg comes back, GG fires and hits BG a non-lethal hit to ear. BG runs off. Caliber doesn't matter. BG comes back, GG shoots him in thigh, BG limps off griping about the pain. Caliber doesn't matter. And so on.
In the three incidents I listed caliber was an issue IMO. In 2 of them a larger caliber allowed the shooter to reach the bad guy were it would have been all but impossible with a mouse gun caliber.
Your opinion duly noted, the facts do not agree with your conclusion. Because the shooters chose to shoot where/when they did does not change the fact they could easily have shot at a different time/position, and the mouse gun could well have penetrated either of those obstacles.
In all three the person armed with heavier won.
Huh!! How can you say that? You don't know how at least 2 of the parties were armed, unless you have left something out of the story earlier. The BG trying to get through the door could have had a .44 Magnum, the guy at the car could have had a sawed-off shotgun, and so on.

David Armstrong
May 28, 2008, 12:04 PM
no one is saying smaller is better... we are saying smaller is Sometimes more convenient and usually good enough.
That is pretty much it. We all compromise our personal SD carry, the only issue is where you are comfortable with the compromise being made.

VA9mm
May 28, 2008, 06:58 PM
When I have my 870 and rack the pump my dog takes a few steps back. Even when dry firing my 90Two or GP100 she looks at me like hmm this isn't good.

threegun
May 28, 2008, 07:24 PM
David, I'm not going to go round and round with you. In my tests mouse gun calibers fired from the shorter barreled weapons are just not capable of penetrating similar objects to what was easily penetrated by heavier calibers. That means my uncle wouldn't have been able to get his hit/hits and my friend would have had to fire more rounds and hope for the best. To you that may not constitute a fact or justify the carrying of heavier but for me it does.

I have been taught that in a shoot out the one who hits first and hardest usually wins. I have seen that the potential to miss increases with the pressure of a shoot out. I realize that good combat hits are going to be difficult to achieve on a moving shooting target. I understand that penetration angles might not be ideal given the BG's movement. All of these have led me to the conclusion that I may not get the best angle or greatest of placement in an actual shootout. Relying on the puniest of cartridges, ones virtually incapable of smashing bone and continuing into the vitals, is just not for me.

You feel good with a mouse and thats fine. I'll argue my points you argue yours. I do agree with you that in most of the already small odds of needing a gun a mouse will work. Its when things get ugly (actually having to use the gun) that I disagree with a mouse being adequate. It simply doesn't have what is needed to compete with the heavier calibers. If I'm gonna carry for the unlikely I might as well be ready with the biggest and best that I can conceal and control.

threegun
May 28, 2008, 07:29 PM
We all compromise our personal SD carry

My clothing would stay the same as would my carry gun choice were the laws different. What compromise? Only the law forces me to compromise.

David Armstrong
May 30, 2008, 06:28 PM
David, I'm not going to go round and round with you.
Sure seems like you are.
In my tests mouse gun calibers fired from the shorter barreled weapons are just not capable of penetrating similar objects to what was easily penetrated by heavier calibers.
So what? Unless you can show somehow that the penetration would make a difference, it doesn't matter. Of course, my test show a .22 zips right through most doors and car metal also.
That means my uncle wouldn't have been able to get his hit/hits and my friend would have had to fire more rounds and hope for the best.
OK, so let's see if I have this right. You are going to claim that in both of these cases the only reason the BGs left was because bullets penetrated an object. The fact that they found out their target had a gun and would shoot them didn't matter at all. Sorry, I really have to question that.
I have been taught that in a shoot out the one who hits first and hardest usually wins.
Then you have been taught about half right. First hits do matter quite a bit.
I have seen that the potential to miss increases with the pressure of a shoot out. I realize that good combat hits are going to be difficult to achieve on a moving shooting target. I understand that penetration angles might not be ideal given the BG's movement.
None of which changes based on caliber selection.
Relying on the puniest of cartridges, ones virtually incapable of smashing bone and continuing into the vitals, is just not for me.
Fine, then don't carry one. But because you are unsure of your abilities and tactics is no reason to suggest others are wrong in what they select.
You feel good with a mouse and thats fine.
No, I feel good with various rifles and shotguns. Virtually all handguns are weak. Fortunately, you don't need that much for most DGU incidents.
I'll argue my points you argue yours.
The basic difference is that my points tend to be based on facts while yours tend to be based on "what if."
It simply doesn't have what is needed to compete with the heavier calibers.
It's not supposed to compete with heavy calibers, it is supposed to provide protection during a DGU incident. It does that just fine.
If I'm gonna carry for the unlikely I might as well be ready with the biggest and best that I can conceal and control.
Then might one suppose that you are carrying a 6" N-frame .44 Magnum? Or maybe it is a Glock Model 21? Maybe a nice Desert Eagle?
My clothing would stay the same as would my carry gun choice were the laws different. What compromise? Only the law forces me to compromise.
Nonsense. Each gun, each caliber, can have strengths and weaknesses. We all compromise within that selection process.

Chui
May 30, 2008, 07:07 PM
"Unless you can show somehow that the penetration would make a difference, it doesn't matter. Of course, my test show a .22 zips right through most doors and car metal also."

You're kidding, right??? :p

Penetration is very important and going through sheetmetal is NOT the same as going through a jacket, a T-shirt, skin, muscle, bone and then organs.

This thread is getting ridiculous.

threegun
May 31, 2008, 07:23 AM
Then might one suppose that you are carrying a 6" N-frame .44 Magnum? Or maybe it is a Glock Model 21? Maybe a nice Desert Eagle?


Not suggesting carrying the biggest of the big just a caliber capable of smashing bones and causing massive blood loss. Considering the difficulty of getting combat hits on a moving fighting target, under the duress of a gun fight, one cannot assume with any degree of certainty a hit to the brain or upper spinal cord. Mouse gun calibers simply do not have the penetration to reliably do so.


OK, so let's see if I have this right. You are going to claim that in both of these cases the only reason the BGs left was because bullets penetrated an object. The fact that they found out their target had a gun and would shoot them didn't matter at all. Sorry, I really have to question that.

No I'm not going to claim that. I'm going to say that we don't know the outcome had their bullets not made contact. For you to assume that they still would have fled is as dishonest as me saying they would have fought on if not hit. We simply don't know either way even though you will now post your odds.

BTW, My uncle hit Florida's lottery despite 14,000,000 to one odds.

None of which changes based on caliber selection.

But all of which suggests that precision hits are going to be difficult. BG movement further suggests that my caliber choice may be required to smash bone and penetrate deeply to force a stop.

Fine, then don't carry one. But because you are unsure of your abilities and tactics is no reason to suggest others are wrong in what they select.

Not unsure of either. However I am starting to believe that you don't understand the dynamics of a gun fight and what is required to stop a BG with a handgun. Something that you might be forced to do when carrying is actually having to stop someone. Might be more unlikely than the already unlikely need to just show the gun to gain compliance however it is the reason most folks carry.

Nonsense. Each gun, each caliber, can have strengths and weaknesses. We all compromise within that selection process.

Nonesense? You are now capable of knowing my situation? Wonderful please explain to me how I have compromised considering I wouldn't stop carrying my man purse nor change my attire. My current carry gun is a Glock 23 which also wouldn't change.....at least not for the sake of a carry size compromise. If the crap hit the fan my gun of choice would be the G-23.

DeathRodent
May 31, 2008, 11:30 PM
ISC I hear what you're saying and agree 100%.

Sure if I KNEW I was going to be getting into trouble I'd carry a .45 - no wait a 12 gauge - no wait I wouldn't go there!

The point is most people don't carry 24/7 and don't need to so while out jogging the NAA is better than pointing your finger or a small knife.

I would suggest upgrading to the .22 mag tho.

And yes the dog might bite but while it was locked on my arm or leg I would stick that NAA in its ear. I figure they are contact range weapons.

ISC
June 2, 2008, 05:10 PM
The point is most people don't carry 24/7 and don't need to so while out jogging the NAA is better than pointing your finger or a small knife.

I would suggest upgrading to the .22 mag tho.

And yes the dog might bite but while it was locked on my arm or leg I would stick that NAA in its ear. I figure they are contact range weapons.

Exactly.

threegun
June 2, 2008, 07:03 PM
DR & ISC, Why do you guys carry?

David Armstrong
June 3, 2008, 03:43 PM
You're kidding, right???
No. Although I have a fairly refined sense of humour, I rarely kid on these forums when I'm discussing issues.
Penetration is very important and going through sheetmetal is NOT the same as going through a jacket, a T-shirt, skin, muscle, bone and then organs.
The issue was if penetration was important in this specific case. As for the rest of the sstatement, n obody has said otherwise.
This thread is getting ridiculous.
Most of the time when people try to justify mandating large guns/calibers for self defense it gets pretty ridiculous.

David Armstrong
June 3, 2008, 04:07 PM
Not suggesting carrying the biggest of the big just a caliber capable of smashing bones and causing massive blood loss.
Sigh. So much for "David, I'm not going to go round and round with you." But that aside, yes you are. That is exactly what "If I'm gonna carry for the unlikely I might as well be ready with the biggest and best that I can conceal and control" seems to indicate. Either you want to be ready with the "biggest and best" or you will settle for smaller. Seems you are contradicting yourself now.
Considering the difficulty of getting combat hits on a moving fighting target, under the duress of a gun fight, one cannot assume with any degree of certainty a hit to the brain or upper spinal cord. Mouse gun calibers simply do not have the penetration to reliably do so.
Given the fact that has proven to be relatively immaterial in actual DGU incidents, it is relatively immaterial here also. Very, very few fights are decided based on getting "combat hits" as you describe.
I'm going to say that we don't know the outcome had their bullets not made contact. For you to assume that they still would have fled is as dishonest as me saying they would have fought on if not hit. We simply don't know either way even though you will now post your odds.
No need to post odds, you have made my point for me. WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW EITHER WAY. Thus, you cannot claim the anecdote as any kind of proof. It is as dishonest for you to assume it mattered as for me to assume it didn't. I simply point it out because you keep bringing it up as some sort of evidence, which you now agree it is not.
But all of which suggests that precision hits are going to be difficult.
So what? All the evidence of DGUs indicates that precision hits are not needed to stop the BG.
BG movement further suggests that my caliber choice may be required to smash bone and penetrate deeply to force a stop.
There is that great big MAY again. You want to base your choice on what MAY happen, that is fine. But don't suggest others are wrong because they base their choice on what DOES happen.
However I am starting to believe that you don't understand the dynamics of a gun fight and what is required to stop a BG with a handgun.
Any time you want to put my experience, training, and expertise up against yours, let me know. I'm not too worried.
Nonesense? You are now capable of knowing my situation?
Don't have to know your situation. All I have to know is that it is a truism that when options are available, everyone compromises based on the criteria that they might think to be more important to them. You have chosen a G23 in .40. That is a smaller caliber than a selection in .45. It is also a smaller capacity than one would get with a 9mm of the same frame size. It is even a smaller capacity than with the G22. It is also a bigger gun to carry around than a G27. So you certainly could have selected other guns. But you choose the G23 because it gives you a nice compromise. Interesting, BTW, that the .40 is so often referred to as the "compromise" cartrdge!
Wonderful please explain to me how I have compromised considering I wouldn't stop carrying my man purse nor change my attire.
That also is a compromise.

As I am heading off to Jamaica for a couple of weeks, you may have the last comment for a while.

Chui
June 3, 2008, 08:58 PM
Well, you can choose to carry the plastic mouse gun and go wrestle with bulldogs, Rottweilers and whatnot as well as multiple badguys, all of whom will take you by surprise. I'd bet the house on a well-conditioned, well-motivated Pit Bulldog or Rottweiler over you/me/him/her and any .380 "micro pistol" any day...

Stay safe.

ISC
June 4, 2008, 12:10 AM
The title of this thread was, "the gun you have vs the gun at home". It wasn't, "The gun you wish you had when you didn't have anything" or, "the gun you would have if you expected a confrontation".

I won't be carrying anything tomorrow when I run, but the NAA .22 I just bought to replace the one I had years ago will be going running with me again soon.

Chui
June 4, 2008, 08:39 AM
"I won't be carrying anything tomorrow when I run, but..."
Well, what's the point???? :confused:

You don't take your self-defense as seriously as perhaps you should and no amount of "justification" for not carrying will either convince me otherwise or truly rest your mind.

Good "luck" on your run.

pax
June 4, 2008, 09:45 AM
This one's been going in circles for awhile now, and civility has begun to decline, so -- it's closed.

pax