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Dusty Rivers
May 9, 2008, 05:20 PM
Pepper Spray seems like a better option than lethal force for dog encounters and similar events.

What other events would pepper spray be an effective tool?

What is the best source/brand/delivery option to carry for personal defense along with CC option.

My wife doesn't have CCP so would a key chain spray be worthwhile or worthless.

Seems like there would be a market for a pepper spray squirt gun like one of the water variety?:confused:

LEOs Is pepper spray effective?

shooter_john
May 9, 2008, 05:29 PM
Pepper spray is iffy at best on dogs, I've seen some shake it of i a couple of seconds, and then I've seen some plow up a front yard with their nose trying to get the stuff off! The best of any I've ever used is Freeze +P, GREAT STUFF, and it has worked beautifully on all of the turds I've ever sprayed with it. Even killed a rogue racoon with it one time! I keep a couple of cans of it in my car now even though we are issued something different now, the Freeze just works better. The biggest thing with spray is, if you spray someone/ some animal, YOU WILL GET SPRAYED TOO!!! That is inevitable with spray. So as bad as it sounds, whatever you or your wife may want to at least expose yourself to whatever you get... maybe not spray directly, but at least get some in the vicinity so you can see what it's like. I'd also suggest something with OC and CS, if there is some that is civilian legal. (No idea what's out there for civies)

Avenger11
May 9, 2008, 06:07 PM
Iv'e had alot of trouble with a very aggressive dog that lives next door.Tried the regular pepper spray with little effect. Range was very limited. The best I found was online, and it's a pepper-mace combination made by Mace Security International MSI and is designed for bears and will shoot about 30 feet.I gave the problem dog a blast of it and problem solved. However this is nasty stuff and if you get just a waft, it will burn your skin and cause difficulty breathing.
Do not carry in or leave in your car cause heat can may cause a rupture and then you have a major problem!!

PunchPaper
May 9, 2008, 07:24 PM
I wouldn't personally recommend pepper spray.

Not only is there a chance it will be blown back on you by the wind,
but even if it makes it's mark, I think it will merely anger, not stop a criminal.

There are some cool, less than lethal weapons available to the police
like the SAGE weapon. It fires a number of types of rounds, like hard plastic
batons, chemical rounds etc.

However, it is a (very) large weapon that looks like a "street sweeper" shotgun. Your wife is not going to pull it out of her purse and take care of business.

Good tool for the police, though.
Our local police (surprisingly) had the restraint to use it on an
armed man who was acting pretty psychotic and after threatening a public official with a gun, went home and then emerged from his home with a gun.

A hit from the SAGE weapon took all the wind out of him.

That being said, there have been a lot of uses of lethal force compared to that incident. I somehow suspect that this man was given different treatment because he was connected and well heeled.

Lesson learned, don't mess with the police...

Bill DeShivs
May 9, 2008, 07:55 PM
Pepper spray has it's uses. I use Freeze +P also.
When buying o/c, make sure you get one that is delivered in a liquid stream, not a spray. Sprays will surely get you!
The two times I have had to hold someone at gunpoint, they just ran or drove away-knowing I could not shoot them.
Had I had o/c with me, I could have sprayed face, then crotch.
All I would have had to tell the responding officers would have been, "Look for the screaming, crying guy with no pants on!"

JP Sarte
May 9, 2008, 09:12 PM
Punchpaper:

I have to disagree with you on your pepper spray response. Although there is a small segment of the population that pepper spray will have little or no effect on, I personally have sprayed in excess of ten people while on the job.

It put every single one down almost instantly.

I also cannot agree enough with shooter_john. If you use it you will get it too. I have never used it without being exposed myself. You know that going in, which is one of the reasons they spray you at the academy. They wan't you to think first and use it appropriately and they wan't you to be able to fight through an exposure if needed.

JP

dipper
May 9, 2008, 10:25 PM
As a Wildlife conservation officer, I carried and used pepper spray on a few people and on a variety of dogs and a few wild animals---in my experience, it WORKS and works well.
In order to carry it , we had to be trained to use it and know its affects so we were sprayed with it---it worked on every one at the training school.
It is said that something like 1% of the population of the USA is immune to its effects but I have not seen or met anyone in that 1% yet.
Although it is possible to get some of the affects on you yourself as the user, for me anyway it was always minor exposure---nothing compared to what the bad guy or offending animal received.
The last time I used it was on some Rottweilers that came after me while serving a warrant---they both got a direct blast and the last I saw of them they were running around blindly and rolling on the ground--they forgot all about me.
Just make sure you keep a fresh can and not something that has been around for 3 years in the trunk of the car.
Buy an extra can and try it out so you can learn the spray pattern and its actual effective distance.

Dipper

Wildalaska
May 9, 2008, 10:29 PM
Contrary to macho opinion, pepper spray is probably better than a handgun for bears.

WildprobablynotcooltosaythatherethoughAlaska TM

Socrates
May 9, 2008, 11:12 PM
Anybody used Mace Brand?
http://store.womenonguard.com/-strse-510/Mace-pepper-spray-gel/Detail.bok

http://store.womenonguard.com/catalog/80269.jpg

Para Bellum
May 10, 2008, 02:07 AM
Pepper Sprays are designed to provide a short-range defense against attackers
I just wonder why I should risk the failure of a pepper spray when I am already being attacked at short-range and carry a handgun. If it's to close, I have to use my hand-to-hand skills anyway because drawing any tool would take to long. If I can draw only one tool in the little time I have left it sure will be my handgun. I don't have to take chances under attack.

Socrates
May 10, 2008, 02:21 AM
If you are under attack, and, you respond with a gun, when the attacker has no weapon, or a lesser one, you might have a problem. I figure if you actually have to use your weapon, you are going to jail, and, you'll probably have to move. Pepper Spray gives you a very effective defensive tool, giving you time to assess, and, it's lighter, easier to carry, plus, it's a better choice on animals, at least for me, then a gun.

Guy at the shop said he used the stuff on a knife attacker, and, the guy still had the knife when the cops arrived.

Life is generally much easier when you don't kill people or animals

ActivShootr
May 10, 2008, 07:42 AM
One out of the three people that I have seen sprayed was not affected by it. I was at a nightclub and some bouncers sprayed a guy that was out of control (not inside the club). The spray only enraged him more. I'm sure alcohol and/or drugs had something to do with it.

Point is, it don't always work the way you want it to.;)

Superhouse 15
May 10, 2008, 09:32 AM
I am a big fan of the MSI brand. Although I am not permitted to be armed at work, I do have a small MSI spray for the odd "bad dog" wink wink. The flip top canister is much better and safer than the cheap keychain style sprays and is easier to aim and fire. I used to carry the OC and CN they called "triple action" http://www.mace.com/index.php/product/index/id/27 but now mostly use the 10% OC. http://www.mace.com/index.php/product/index/id/32

A couple of nurses in the local hospital ER carry the Kimber Lifeact because they are not permitted to carry weapons of any kind and wanted something that did not look like a weapon. In the pocket of scrubs for example it could be another cell phone, Blackberry, etc.


As for immunity, my F.D. covers the local jail, prison, correctional facility, detox, etc. We had a standby for an inmate that was out of control and he got sprayed with Cap Stun OC. I am particularly sensitive and was feeling it in the hallway as were some of the officers and ambulance crew. One old Lieutenant walked into the cell, picked the inmate up by the scruff of his neck and dragged him to the cot. While the inmate was snorting and choking, the LT had no problems. He told us OC or the old CN and CS they used in the old days never bothered him. He said it was not a matter of geting used to it over the years, but that it had never worked on him ever.

tc556guy
May 10, 2008, 11:34 AM
Every time I've had to spray a dog, it was immediately effective. I've been sprayed enough in training and by catching some spray on calls to feel that it is equally effective against people. Does it answer every need in every circumstance? No, but that doesn't mean that people should put no faith in it.

joegator
May 10, 2008, 05:58 PM
Kimber has a new OC delivery system called Gaurdian. It has two shots each of which has a range of 13 feet. It delivers the OC at 90 mph. This is the civilian version and sells for $40. There is also a LE version that is effective out to 20 feet and delivers the OC at 270 mph. I read today that some LE agencies have tested it with very good results. This would be a good way to take the rage out of a road warrior in situations where a lethal response might be hard to justify. I'm thinking about getting one for the car.

RedneckFur
May 10, 2008, 07:58 PM
I've been hit with some of the overspray from Counter-Assault bear mace, and given a choice, I think i'd rather be shot with a small caliber handgun than go through that again. I never my eyes nose and lungs could hurt so bad.

pax
May 10, 2008, 09:50 PM
I have seen it fail to work, in a training class. One of the women in the class simply did not respond to the stuff. The instructor sprayed her. She blinked and said, "That's it?"

With her consent, he sprayed her again -- a longer spray from a closer distance. She kind of half-sneezed, half-snorted, and shrugged.

He went and got a fresh can and tried again. She shrugged and they gave up.

About five minutes later, I watched her wander over to the water buckets, splash a single scant handful of water on her face, rub it with a towel, and walk off. No redness, no snot-strings, no watery eyes. Nothing.

Most people respond to it. Some don't. And -- based on that class -- I would say the difference isn't drug/alcohol intoxication, but simply some folks don't respond to it.

Doesn't make it bad stuff. If I weren't severely asthmatic, I would probably carry OC at least some of the time. But I would not bet my life on it.

The inimitable Tamara tells the story of the time she used pepper spray to defend herself at this link (www.corneredcat.com/Why/HCI.aspx). Simply put, the spray did not do the entire job, but it did buy her the time she needed to put another defense in place. I'd say that's a success story, but it does underline the important lesson about OC use: if you carry pepper spray to defend yourself, you should always always always have a back up plan for what you will do if the spray does not work. (Even if the plan is, "Run like a striped-butt ape and scream like a little girl.")

More here: www.corneredcat.com/Gear/pepperspray.aspx

pax

sw_florida
May 10, 2008, 10:40 PM
Pepper spray them so they stand still. Then you shoot them.

Drundel
May 11, 2008, 01:03 AM
I've wondered about that same stuff Socrates. My logic is the gel would last longer and be harder to get off.

pgg
May 11, 2008, 02:20 AM
All the times I've used it on suspects (over 10 years now) I have NEVER had it work by itself. I have always used it to distract the suspect and then go to a different technique (ie. baton or takedown etc). The bad guys (girls to) only start whining and crying after they are in cuffs. They tried issuing us pepper foam for a short time and the suspects started scraping it off their faces and throwing it back :mad: . Anytime you use it you will get contaminated also. As far as animals go the dogs I've used it on just snorted and kept coming. One did stop and licked it off (i guess it tasted good :rolleyes: ). I would more recommend a civilian taser for self defense. If nothing else pepper spray can be used to spray the attacker therefore buying time to run away.

Phil

Socrates
May 11, 2008, 03:42 AM
Anything rather then having to shoot the puppy. I LOVE animals more then most people.
I'd much rather have him think he was going to get sprayed, and, maybe, then getting some idea of what he was carrying, prior to pulling a gun. I KNOW I got really mad when the guy brought a Walther PPK/S to what I thought was going to be a really fun, 3 on 1 fight in a bathroom...:mad:

Doggieman
May 11, 2008, 07:01 AM
I got some in my eye and it felt like needles jabbing me.

Remember that most perps are out to get something from you. That is, they have a specific goal such as getting your wallet or raping you or whatever. The people the cops end up spraying are usually just being violent a-holes and swinging at anyone. A cop is trying to apprehend someone, whereas you are simply trying to leave.

From what I've seen on youtube, pepper spray is effective at stopping people from setting and achieving discrete goals like firing a weapon or taking a purse or whatever. It's not so effective at preventing people from flailing around and causing havoc to those people and things nearby.

So if you're afraid of being robbed or carjacked, it might be good (provided the perp doesn't have a weapon). If you're afraid of being punched and kicked in an elevator, not so good.

velobard
May 11, 2008, 07:24 AM
I don't consider it an option for my wife. She has allerigies that can practically lock up her lungs on a bad day and I would be afraid that any blowback from pepper spray would incapacitate her worse than her attacker. Also it would not be practical for one of her possible scenarios; someone hiding inside her car in the dark when she gets off work.

She works someplace where it's not an option to carry, so with any kind of spray out, I figure we're down to stun gun or taser. There's also the possibility of an ASP or something else, I guess. I haven't picked up either for her yet because with my current work schedule I usually drop her off and pick her up myself since we start at the same time and I work close by. My work situation will likely change soon, so we need to make a decision on what's best for her to carry.

JollyRoger
May 11, 2008, 07:33 AM
I have used CapStun brand on an arrest scuffle and on dogs, and it was effective. Notably, the bad guy didn't stop and lay down, but it blinded him and interfered with his breathing enough we got control of him. (2 on 1 in our favor and he was winning - ah, youth). I have also been issued Punch-II and have personally purchased Guardian brand, all of which are quality products. Somewhere on the net I found a comparison of all the sprays and was surprised to see they really aren't all created equal. Do your research and buy quality. Incidentally, if you're going to leave spray in a car, I have found only one unit specially formulated not to burst - an auto unit made by Guardian.

The great advantage of pepper spray is that it's cheap and doesn't cause any damage. This means someone like your wife or girlfriend is much more likely not to hesitate, and will use it before it's too late. All tough-guy talk aside, most people have a tough time shooting a person and WILL hesitate, often because a lot of assault scenarios are not real clear cut until you're rolling around on the ground or have a knife pressed against your belly. A brandished gun is not necessarily going to stop things, either. The spray is intimidating to a lot of bad guys, can be used before things rise to the level of a justified shooting, and if they get it away from you and use it against you, it won't kill you like your gun or knife.

Incidentally, that Kimber Guardian gel-thing doesn't look good to me. The police unit has sights and is designed to deploy up to 21 feet (hopefully with other officers covering.) The civilian unit has no sights and takes away one of the pepper spray's advantages, a continuous stream or spray so you can hit your target. Check out the demo video on Kimber's website: their own demonstrator almost misses the head target with his first shot.

Para Bellum
May 11, 2008, 11:13 AM
OC, Tasers and Guarian Angles have one big advantage: You don't have to think twice. If you misjudged the situation, you apologize, give the - good - buy money or buy him a drink and that can be it. Try that with a handgun :eek: .

So, I sometimes carry OC (with my 9x19mm) eg when running in the woods. If a dog comes to close, I don't need to think to long, if it's to close, I spray it. No blast, no casing lying somewhere, no dead dog, no mad owner.
And if the dog tries to kill me, I can still shoot it.

Same applies to unclear situations. If I feel that pulling the gun might be to much and I could regret it - I can use OC as a first defense. Switching to the gun wouldn't take long. However, I don't advocate using OC in a clear lethal threat situation. If the leathal threat is clear, the answer is clear: The fastest and most reliable way awailiable to stop the threat, and in my case that mostly is a 9x19mm Glock or a .223 rifle.

Have a nice weekend,
PB

JP Sarte
May 11, 2008, 10:24 PM
Maybe some people are immune to its charms, but when I got sprayed at the academy it felt like someone tossed a bucket of lit gasoline in my face. The effects lasted for hours.

JP

NukemJim
May 12, 2008, 11:26 AM
There is also a LE version that is effective out to 20 feet and delivers the OC at 270 mph.

That is the JPX if I am not mistaken and it is sold OTC in Illinois ( Do not know the laws in other states )

I found that about 15 feet was a more realistic range estimate for it.

NukemJim

TwoXForr
May 12, 2008, 11:38 AM
In my experience OC has worked every time, stats say it won't but I am willing to bet on the 99% effective. CS or tear gas I would take ten times before getting hit with OC. Hate the stuff, have no desire to get hit with OC again.

Ozarks Magic
May 14, 2008, 07:40 AM
Fox labs is best. I carry the full line of Fox labs, Sabre, Mace and others. Check the link in my signature.

velobard
May 14, 2008, 11:17 AM
Fox labs is best. I carry the full line of Fox labs, Sabre, Mace and others. Check the link in my signature.


Dead link.

Wyldman
May 14, 2008, 11:27 AM
There is only ONE purpose for pepper spray in the civillian sector and that is; to subdue your attacker long enough for you to escape. Once, my Weimaraner jumped the fence and attacked our mailman. He nailed her right in the face with pepper spray and all it did was tick-her-off even worse! She ran right through it. I have also heard stories of people jacked-up on amphetamines not being phased by pepper spray. Myself, I would never depend on it 100% in a self-defense situation. A taser or stun-gun would be my first choice for non-lethal defense.

spacemanspiff
May 14, 2008, 05:57 PM
Spray on an animal is NOT the cureall, it might discourage an animals attack, or delay it, just be ready to use another form of defense. I have sprayed a pitbull that just sneezed it off in a matter of seconds. And depending on what type of coat the animal has, the spray might not even be useful.

I still laugh my butt off when my roommate tells the story of his exwifes dog that I sprayed, after I left, he called the dog in (dog was loose, and found its way back to what it felt was home), petted it for a few minutes, and then used the restroom. Took a few minutes for the residue to take effect, and then it took several hours and multiple showers for his junk to go back to normal temps!

When we got 'certified' at the bar to use spray, it was ingrained into us students that it will only buy you a little bit of time to control the person(s) and subdue them. We were sprayed and were able to wash it off within a minute, those we did spray in the course of our work however, would wind up in handcuffs and unable to wash for quite some time.

Some have suggested the stream versus the fog output, keep in mind the stream requires more accuracy in the one deploying it, the fog output has an 'area affect', meaning you dont have to exactly get it right in their face.

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 07:59 PM
Hmmmm.... I'm confused. Why would a private citizen ever choose a chemical spray over a 9mm or 45 ACP?

If my wife were being attacked and feared imminent death, serious bodily injury, or sexual assault, I would want her to use deadly force.

If I were being attacked and feared imminent death or serious bodily injury I would choose deadly force.

If I were being attacked by a 50-100 pound, cute fuzzy ball of teeth, jaws, muscle, and claws, I would choose deadly force (too bad we can't carry a 12 ga.).

If I were being accosted, harrassed, coerced, or a victim of simple assault, I would use traditional methods of self defense like either overpowering the aggressor or running away. If I were attacked by a small dog I would kick it, of course if it latched its little teeth onto my leg (depending on it's size) I might then have to shoot it.

Seems like if I used a chemical spray, that would be considered escalating the altercation, and at the very least I could expect to be sprayed back; or sued; or attacked with greater vigor creating a more dangerous situation.

I don't see it. I thought I had this CCW thing figured out.

I always see folks walking around with sticks. I wish I could tell them...if you feel like you need a self defense weapon (and I can understand that), you should get a much better one... in a larger caliber... especially since you live in a state that will issue a CCW permit. You should sign up, get on board, support our 2nd amendment rights and carry an effective self defense weapon.

I thought sprays and tazers (sp?) were to assist LE in subduing non-leathal suspects resisting arrest...

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 08:05 PM
Deleted double post. :rolleyes:

LanceOregon
May 14, 2008, 08:45 PM
I don't consider it an option for my wife. She has allerigies that can practically lock up her lungs on a bad day and I would be afraid that any blowback from pepper spray would incapacitate her worse than her attacker. Also it would not be practical for one of her possible scenarios; someone hiding inside her car in the dark when she gets off work.

Velobard:


Get her a taser. They have them available in pink now for women. The latest color for ladies is now an attractive leopard skin:


http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/taser-c2lep.jpg


My niece is now a widow living on her own, with two boys. She was not at all comfortable with firearms. And it is virtually impossible to get a CCW permit in California anyway. However, she can legally take her Taser to virtually anywhere in California, except to a school or government building.

I got her the pink model. Here is a photo of the package before I wrapped it up to be her present last Christmas:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/taser_pink_online.jpg


Just buy her a few extra cartridges so she can fire it a few times to familiarize herself with it. A great training DVD ships with the Taser. Be sure to get her the model with the laser sight. It only costs $50 more, so it is well worth it. The laser makes aiming the weapon far, far more accurate and easy to do.

I never go anywhere ( except to the Post Office ) without my Taser.


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/sW_taser_online.jpg

.

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 10:26 PM
The great advantage of pepper spray is that it's cheap and doesn't cause any damage. This means someone like your wife or girlfriend is much more likely not to hesitate, and will use it before it's too late. All tough-guy talk aside, most people have a tough time shooting a person and WILL hesitate, often because a lot of assault scenarios are not real clear cut until you're rolling around on the ground or have a knife pressed against your belly. A brandished gun is not necessarily going to stop things, either.

This is the thing that scares me the most about self defense...Is that I will hesitate and it will cost me my life. I am pretty sure that If faced with a threat of any kind (leathal or not)... I will hesitate. It is my nature (for better or worse). The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I just can't make the mental leap that the person who approaches and asks for money means to rob and kill me. I just think they want some change. But if I survive my initial hesitation, and I have to make a deliberate decision to draw/use a weapon while I am on my a** or in any other compromised position I would rather come up smoking than spraying. :mad: I just can't see the need for spray. :confused:

TripIII
May 14, 2008, 10:33 PM
Sorry about the double post. Not sure how that happened. :confused:

JollyRoger
May 14, 2008, 11:04 PM
I think Mas Ayoob was credited with the quote "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." The pepper spray is just another tool for the toolbox. Sometimes you run into situations which just aren't clear cut. I have experienced, as have a number of LEO's I have worked with from various agencies, bad guys who would look at a drawn weapon and tell you "go ahead, shoot me," knowing full well that we wouldn't shoot an unarmed individual. Sure, they always tell us in legal training that you can shoot in such a situation if you can articulate reasonable fear, like the bad guy is going to try a weapon snatch, but I have yet to see a LEO pull the trigger like that. What happens is you're stuck: if you shoot, you could end up unemployed and/or in jail. Pepper spray is just what you want (Tazers would be great, too.). Otherwise, you holster up and the fight is on.

pax
May 14, 2008, 11:04 PM
TripIII,

Pepper spray basically just gives you another option for when lethal force is not appropriate, but some level of force is.

In slowly-developing situations, it can be used considerably sooner than a firearm can.

In ambiguous situations, it may allow the defender to act decisively sooner than he or she otherwise would.

For those who have moral or ethical doubts about using lethal force, pepper spray is one of the few non-lethal defensive options which allows the defender to protect him- or herself from a distance, to stay out of arm's reach from the attacker but still deter the criminal and escape.

Finally: Why would you want to kill someone if you could survive the encounter unscathed without killing them?

pax

Dusty Rivers
May 15, 2008, 10:08 PM
What is the difference between mace 10% OC and the mace canine spray. They both appear to be the same size, but the canine spray doesn't list the % OC on their web site.

I'm shocked at the number of posts about using your gun is the first and last and only choice. The lone purpose is to defuse the situation/confrontation. Words work great, such as I'm sorry, my mistake, etc. Next is to keep moving around. Don't plant your feet and let the other party get a bead on you. then show OC spray, then threaten to use OC, then use OC, then draw and show gun, then do what is necessary. Not always in that order, not always any or all of these choices.

A hundred different situations create many choices of escalation and deescalation. Like someone else posted it is a tool that can be used when appropriate and time/circumstances allow. If you squirt the dog 12 feet from you, He may not get to 10 feet from you. If he does you escalate your response. If he is charging a hundred miles an hour, at 12 feet you need a stiffer response than OC. The point is the more options we have the less we will need lethal force. The force of last resort.

Responding to some other posts as well -What the heck is wrong with showing your gun if it keeps you from having to actually shoot someone. I would rather be explaining to the law why i had to scare someone off rather than explaining why I felt legally correct to discharge lethal force. It is all about escalation of response as necessary. We all have a moral, if not legal duty to mitigate the force necessary. OC spray next to my extra magazine gives me an opportunity to do, situation permitting. I may be a samurai, but I do not have to bloody my sword every time I need to draw it.:cool:

spacemanspiff
May 16, 2008, 11:32 AM
Seems like if I used a chemical spray, that would be considered escalating the altercation, and at the very least I could expect to be sprayed back; or sued; or attacked with greater vigor creating a more dangerous situation.
Nonsense. Ask a local LEO for advice, and then contact your local DA to see how often charges of assault are brought against someone who has used spray in self defense.
This is the thing that scares me the most about self defense...Is that I will hesitate and it will cost me my life. I am pretty sure that If faced with a threat of any kind (leathal or not)... I will hesitate. It is my nature (for better or worse). The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I just can't make the mental leap that the person who approaches and asks for money means to rob and kill me. I just think they want some change. But if I survive my initial hesitation, and I have to make a deliberate decision to draw/use a weapon while I am on my a** or in any other compromised position I would rather come up smoking than spraying. I just can't see the need for spray.
Based on the above paragraph, I would say that you need to do a lot more soul searching on the value of human life (yours, your loved ones, and even those who would do you harm) before carrying a firearm. It sounds like you know what the law says, but its the laws of your conscience that you have not yet resolved. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but it is the most important part of conditioning your mind to defend your life. Yes, there is a good chance that if and when you do have to use your firearm to defend yourself you will take someones life. Someones child, brother, spouse, best friend. And it might be over something trivial that they have initiated a deadly threat over. Maybe a couple bucks from your pocket, maybe your vehicle.

Having a respect for all human life is a good thing. That is what seperates us from the predators out there preying on the weak. I feel it is my duty to defend life from those who do not respect life. With that said, I don't believe I would hesitate, but I'll never know until it happens. My mindset however, is not preset to confuse my conscience before it even happens.

Mr. James
May 16, 2008, 03:29 PM
Excellent post, 'spiff.

Despite what some might thing it ain't about blood-lust, it ain't about itching for a "good shoot." It is about being resolved in your own mind if and when you would use lethal force upon another human being to protect yourself and loved ones. To paraphrase, he who hesitates is dead.

Samurai
May 16, 2008, 03:53 PM
You guys are missing the most important part: Pepper spray is GREAT if you've got a pot of chili that you need to season, FAST! (kidding...)

Pepper spray is nothing more than a device for disbursing a caustic chemical. That's it. It is not "only good for one thing..." as MOST people on this thread have stated. (Although, noone can seem to agree what that "one thing" is...) It's good for MANY things. It can cause pain, it can cause blindness, it can cause shortness of breath, and certain models even include a paint-like marker to identify what's been sprayed.

The flip-side to this point is the distinction between whether a gun is "only good for killing human beings." There is SO much more that you can do with a gun! You can hunt, target shoot, shoot to wound, shoot to disrupt little steel plates, etc... If a gun is "only one" thing, then it is simply a device for propelling a bullet at a high rate of speed.

My point? My point... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, once you start attributing "only one thing" that a particular weapon is good for, you start assigning a connotative value (emotion) to that weapon. Certain weapons can be seen as "good," or "evil," or "merciful," or "harsh," based on the mischaracterization of their function.

So, everyone remember, you CAN drive a nail with a can of pepper spray...

flyby
May 16, 2008, 05:38 PM
Some Good General Info on... (Police Forums are a good to check for info also)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHqK-hGuSMc&feature=related
http://ezinearticles.com/?Will-Pepper-Spray-Protect-Me?&id=631380
http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/relatedinfo/training.shtml

Some willing subjects :rolleyes: :D
(caution some cursing in the following vids..be warned!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWE-kBpyiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcqWdgZHik0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJgSuaEOPk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lmq_59z6rs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJn1Fu6pHlQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZoNyi8SXA
1 1/2 hours after a police OC qualification...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkqlhlSWz-0&feature=related

Bottom Line..Pepper Spray Works, seen it! ..also tested and carried it when I worked and commuted off hours in NYC (where CC was a no-no) is also good to remember to do some side stepping footwork in an SD situation, after all..you are fighting ;) ..and preferably oriented Upwind (if very windy)

Buying Quality is imperative with OC..otherwise your more than likely just getting ineffective Junk (the best sprays often have to be ordered, as opposed to off-brands bought at Walmart) ..the difference in effect between sprays can be what one might perceive as getting sprayed with Battery acid vs getting sprayed with taco sauce. :D ..Foggers and Cone pattern units are generally more effective (also on animals) in that they have greater respiratory effects and you can leave lingering clouds behind you while fleeing ..is also better for multiple attackers, But is more susceptible to the wind vs the Stream units.

FOX Labs has become a standard ..even at 2% they've figured a way to refine and amplify the effects well beyond that of higher percent sprays and takes effect quicker as well.
http://www.defensedevices.com/worhotpepspr.html
http://www.defensedevices.com/freeze-p-pepper-spray.html
http://www.guardian-self-defense.com/Images/Pepperspray/What%20are%20officers%20saying%20about%20Fox...2.pdf

The Original MaceĀ® Brand(MSI) products are also quality products and are probably the best bet for the smallest size units like their 1/2oz(11-18 gram)sized flip-tops(easier,safer and sturdier than the spin-tops) http://www.macebrand.com/ ..never cared much for Sabre' but their new triple-action red formula is said to be good.
Haven't carried OC in sometime, but do agree its good to have a non-lethal alternative.
Just bought a 2.oz FOX-5.3 flip-top cone unit that I'll be carrying from now on.

Rob Pincus
May 16, 2008, 05:50 PM
I just taped a training video on the topic for the PDV DVD Series... it will be released later this year. In going through the content preparation, I had to think about an analyze OC more than I had in years. When I was in LE, I hated the stuff, because (as noted previsously) it doesn't always (often....??) make the subject stop trying to fight/struggle/resist and in LE we HAD to control the subject after the spraying, which meant that we were going to get contaminated/irritated. not good.

In a Self Defense situation, you don't have that concern, so it is a more viable option. But, you absolutely NEED to practice deploying it. We taped an actual subject getting sprayed during a mock attack and our actress had quite a hard time getting the mechanics of getting the keychain out of her purse, orienting it properly, disabling the safety (rotating the button..) and the hitting the roleplayer in the face. We had her try at least 5 times with an inert spray first. While it may be stressful to have a couple HD video cameras in your face, it is nothing like being attacked by a would be rapist wielding a knife. Unfortunately, most companies do not offer inert training units to civilians. It is certainly worth buying two cans and using one for practice, however (just do it in a well ventilated area! ;) ).

Be aware of what you are carrying and find out what the numbers mean. There are a lot of ways to twist the numbers on the labels. There is no regulation on the way the manufacturers come up with some of the numbers.. in fact, only the sprays designed/advertised to stop bears have an industry standard (it is higher than recommended for people). Also, be aware of the "inert" agents in the mix. Some of them are flammable.

-RJP

USMCGrunt
May 17, 2008, 08:32 AM
I just wonder why I should risk the failure of a pepper spray when I am already being attacked at short-range and carry a handgun. If it's to close, I have to use my hand-to-hand skills anyway because drawing any tool would take to long. If I can draw only one tool in the little time I have left it sure will be my handgun. I don't have to take chances under attack.


It has to do with the use of force necessary to end the situation. If you run across someone like say a violent drunk, you may not be justified in using deadly force in that situation without getting into trouble with the law. By the same token, hand-to-hand skills against someone bigger, stronger or better than you may also prove to be not enough force to end the situation. Maybe you can deploy it in time, maybe not. Maybe your hand-to-hand skills are going to be enough, maybe not. Maybe a firearm is needed at times, maybe not. I think of OC as another tool that is compact, lightweight, and easy to carry that adds another level of defense I have an OPTION to use.

Socrates
May 18, 2008, 03:11 AM
I carry the 10 Mace gel. Now, for animals, would a bear repellent be stronger, and work better on animals????

http://www.securityprousa.com/noname4.html
20%

LanceOregon
May 18, 2008, 04:43 AM
There is now a new model Taser that has a video camera on it. With it, you can actually record your shooting so that you have evidence of exactly what went down.

Check this video out:

http://www.livevideo.com/video/287CC464144D4516864E91528C4F4928/taser-cam-catches-thief-gettin.aspx

.

Socrates
May 18, 2008, 05:05 AM
Anybody in Alaska have a preferred bear spray? UDAP? etc.

Yellowfin
May 20, 2008, 11:06 AM
So where do batons come into play? I'm looking at a place near me that has a certification for baton use, and it intrigues me.

dawg23
May 20, 2008, 06:08 PM
I have seen it fail to work, in a training class. One of the women in the class simply did not respond to the stuff. The instructor sprayed her. She blinked and said, "That's it?"

With her consent, he sprayed her again -- a longer spray from a closer distance. She kind of half-sneezed, half-snorted, and shrugged.

He went and got a fresh can and tried again. She shrugged and they gave up.



I'd like to know what brand that was. Not saying that's the only variable, but I'd still like to know.

FOX Labs has become a standard

Amen.

pax
May 20, 2008, 08:34 PM
One can was FOX, the other was a bear grade something-or-another.

pax

Diesel1
May 21, 2008, 08:48 AM
Pepper spray certainly isn't the 'end all, be all' of every situation.
I consider it another tool in a layered defence. I've taken a few good clouds of it over the years, I'd say it works on me.:eek:

There simply are those circumstances that arise that do not call for deadly force, human or otherwise.
If nothing else, it may give you the time to take other actions or avenues of escape.

Yellowfin
May 25, 2008, 11:43 PM
I've seen references to a few states' laws to where you can't carry spray and a sidearm at the same time, or you need a separate license for each, or can't carry spray at all. What's the dealio with that?

kym
May 26, 2008, 08:39 AM
Stupidly.