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Playboypenguin
April 29, 2008, 01:44 AM
I know a lot of guys on here practice split second applications of their firearms. They train for that time when they will have to do the fast draw to save their skins. Which is fine. I think we all should practice those skills and many people think that is the situation they are most likely to be confronted with in their lives. A lot of guys also claim long distance practice is not really needed since attacks occur close up.

This brings up the question of what do you think is the most likely situation you will face where you would need your firearm. Will it be a mugging, a home defense, or what?

Like I said, a lot of people believe it will be a mugging or a sudden attack where they will need to quick draw. I am a little different guess. I am pretty cautious about where I am and when I am there so I am not that fearful of being attacked and needing a gun...despite what happened to me a couple months ago.

In this day and age my biggest fear is being in a public place at the wrong time and having to deal with a situation like a mall shooting or campus shooting. A situation where a handgun can make the difference between having to hide behind a garbage can and hope you do not get noticed and being able to defend yourself from a defensive position...or possibly come to the aid of others if you chose to do so. That could also require some long range skills.

How 'bout you?

ghalleen
April 29, 2008, 02:03 AM
PBP,

I agree. I feel the biggest threat from a crazy in a public place or an armed robber in a store. I don't know that I'm correct or not, but that is when I feel the most vulnerable.

There are other obvious threats that are probably more likely, but those are the ones I can avoid. For instance: Visiting an ATM at night or taking a stroll through a bad neighborhood at night.

2cooltoolz
April 29, 2008, 02:11 AM
I've been robbed three times at gunpoint. Twice they followed me home, unnoticed by me, to carjack my automobile. One of those times, I truly thought I was going to die, he had a dead drop on me, with a shotgun, his partner had my wife under a semi-auto, I was unarmed and had no good moves open. I told him how easy this was going to be for him and let him have my car. The other time I layed over, floored it and escaped.
The non-automobile time, I stood tall and proud (and a little drunk), was pistol whipped and then gave him my wallet.
I have since replayed these situations hundreds of times; gun in hand, gun in console, gun in IWB. I'm still here, not sure how those scenarios would have played out. Probably bad.
But the odds of me being in a school/mall/church/Luby's shooting situation are about even with winning the Lottery (I do invest $10/week). Otherwise I would be doing that Hi-Cap thing from the other post.
I dress and train for personal protection...these things do happen.

Dan31
April 29, 2008, 02:12 AM
Home defense is the more likely for me. Renton isn't the best place to live but anything can happen anywhere when you least expect it. I don't go tripping thru the tulips at night here and I don't go to the bad areas unless I'm going thru them to get elsewhere. I haven't gotten my ccw yet but I will soon, as my new job might require it.

Venison_Jerkey32
April 29, 2008, 02:30 AM
What happened to you a couple months ago?

ChicagoTex
April 29, 2008, 02:53 AM
While I dread a home invasion as much as anybody, I acknowledge that it's actually the least likely scenario, and also the scenario where I'm most likely to have the most control of the situation (it's my home turf, after all). So besides the occaisonal drill I don't give it much thought.

I'm rarely in especially crowded places and as such don't share your general apprehension of being swept into a mass shooting - but still train for the possibility that some nut could always arrive to shoot up my local McDonald's while I'm having lunch.

Truth be told I actually anticipate being mugged at gunpoint from my car more than anything else (particularly since that's a fairly common MO in the DFW area) and have trained extensively for pretending to be terrified and discombobulated reaching for my wallet while actually reaching for my CCW and getting a shot or two off before the BG realizes somethings amiss. What's more, I think my stature and body language would intimidate all but the most brave (or stupid) attacker, but neither are plainly visible while sitting in my car.
That said, I also do train for face to face muggings and combining basic martial arts (deflecting a weapon, getting the attacker off balance, etc) with the draw of my CCW - I'm contemplating getting an Emerson Combat Kerambit to enhance my options in this regard.

Something else I train for that I don't think a lot of people do is a scenario where for some reason I'm in a shootout with a bad guy in a parking lot and the range may be increasing (running from one car to the next, either myself or the bg) - this is why I insist that I be able to deliver consistently accurate fire with anything I carry out to a MINIMUM of 25 yards - obviously more is better - from awkward positions behind cover (most likely, automobiles).

As an aside, that raises an interesting question - who's legally liable for the damage to vehicles from me and the bg shooting at each other? Are we each responsible for our own bullets, or is the initial criminal actor responsible for all damages caused as a byproduct of his criminal act? I realize were this circumstance to come up that would be the least of my worries, but I'm still curious.

xrocket
April 29, 2008, 07:33 AM
I prepare and practice both strong hand and off hand at multiple ranges of 3/7/15 yards with singles, doubles and 2+1 in the anticipation that I could be attacked anywhere, anytime for any reason. I feel strongly that a full-time positive mind set based on a determined and committed consciousness is my best defense.

As I and my wife get older I believe the odds of something happening to one of us goes up especially in a car or shopping transition to or from either.

For me I commit to three personal rules: CAP

Always Carry

Always Aware

Always practice


Good luck to all if "That" time comes.



.

Moe Howard
April 29, 2008, 08:23 AM
I practice gun presentation from every carry mode I use or may every use. Strong side hip, shoulder, ankle, sissy pack, etc. and even practice with a flashlight in one hand and gun in the other, I have some training pistols is use for this. I am a big guy and keep my head up and am always aware of my surroundings and stay away from high crime areas as much as possible, so I don't worry about mugging as much as a mass shooting in a crowded place. I hate crowds so I tend not to spend much time is malls, amusement parks, sporting events, etc. However my church holds 1500 people in the auditorium and it is theater like seating. I guess my biggest fear is a mass shooting happening there since it is likely hundreds of people will likely be running in every direction so trying to shoot a mass shooter is almost out of the question do to the innocent bystander factor.

Socrates
April 29, 2008, 08:57 AM
Being in a public school, and something happening, either at a sporting event with a crazy parent, or a mob mentality.
Crazy student shooting, or gang bangers.
Getting jumped in a public bathroom again, but, I'm real careful on that one, and pepper spray is my constant friend.

Not having a weapon, on a school, or, having one, and ending
up in jail.

Really time to find a new job.

Shadi Khalil
April 29, 2008, 09:07 AM
I practice mainly drawing from my concealment holster and reloading, all dry as my range doesnt allow that sort of thing. As far as the ranges at which I practice at with live fire? I try and most of my prctice between 3 and 10 yards. At the end of my range sessions I like to put the target back about 15 yards and see what I can do. I'll admit, its not really that pretty but I'm not really using a target gun either...

Teuthis
April 29, 2008, 09:15 AM
I think that if one ends up in a close-quarters, quick draw gunfight situation, one is most likely going to die anyway. Having quick draw skills can only help, but at close range everyone is likely to get lead.

As mentioned, the best way to make your ability to carry a weapon count, is to pay very close attention to your surroundings all the time. Stay in condition yellow when in public. Then, if danger appears, you have likely spotted it, and can find cover before any shooting starts; or get away.

I would consider the most likely scenario for self defense as a robbery attempt. If one did encounter a random shooter, or insane, ex-boyfriend after a woman, other skills than quick draw would have to be used. You would likely have to make an approach upon the gunman, and engage at relatively close range an opponent who might have you out-gunned. The willingness to step into a firefight might be more than many people could do. Some Military, and LEO's would have combat training and possibly experience; but the armed citizen may do better just to protect and defend those around him and help them get out of harm's way.

shortwave
April 29, 2008, 09:43 AM
i have two instances where i feel easily accesible by b/g. 1`st in car, usually no fast escape route. your sitting, seat belted in an inclosed area. 2`nd in a business that posts "no-gun" sign. refuse to get caught with shorts down so i don`t go there. banks in Ohio are off limits to guns. you might have guessed that the robbery/assault rate in this state in a bank parking lot on payday Friday is off the hook.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 29, 2008, 09:43 AM
Zombies! :D

Public place nut or targeted robbery - such as at the gas pump.

At work, can't carry - so behind the garbage gun or fleeing in terror.

At home, nice neighborhood - less likely but guns available.

ElectricHellfire
April 29, 2008, 09:44 AM
Im outside of DFW area but there have been a lot of home invasions in the Dallas area so I have been thinking more and more about my defenses against that sort of attack.

My wife and I eat out a lot (2x/week) so I often think about a robbery of some sort in that situation and try to place myself as defensible as possible Ie corner booth etc.

parrothead2581
April 29, 2008, 10:44 AM
HD, parking lots & "Stop and Robs".

I rarely (count, once or twice/year, at the most) go to any indoor malls, so not really concerned there.

No longer on a school campus, so not there.

cschwanz
April 29, 2008, 10:58 AM
I'm thinking the most likely place where i may need my CCW is either at the mall (who knows what people are likely to do these days) or at the local outdoor park areas where the city holds multiple festivities including our city festival, and others like it(Germanfest, Ribfest, etc). I like going to those, but always try to leave before the sun goes down, b/c they can get a lil shady after dark. Home invasions are always on my list, but its where i feel most confident. i know my house better than a stranger

Yellowfin
April 29, 2008, 01:33 PM
1. Travel
2. Late night gas station visits
3. ATM's
4. Riding the El in Philly
5. Church -- If not from psychos then terrorists wanting to start up here what they do elsewhere in the world. Somehow I'm surprised they haven't tried attacking churches here already, particularly in non right to carry states. I'd like to see their little jihad crap get a 180 grain veto a few times.

MLeake
April 29, 2008, 01:43 PM
1. Late night ATM.
2. Late night gas station.
3. Late night Diner.
4. Travel - includes road rage incidents, breakdowns in secluded areas, and carjacking (note: guy would have to be desperate to carjack a 12yo 4x4, but one never knows).

To preempt those who would say to avoid late night activities, please remember that some people have work hours that require night time travel. This applies both to my regular job, and to travel to and from my reserve unit.

Cheers,

M

Yellowfin
April 29, 2008, 03:24 PM
And I forgot to add 6. Hunting. Poachers, meth producers, and PETA wackos are dangers that appear to be more and more prevalent every year and something a little faster handling than my bow or rifle is needed so I'm always carrying my .40 with me.

clayking
April 29, 2008, 07:53 PM
When I least expect it. Car jacking, parking lot, mugging or house break-in, who knows. I'm not too worried about the mall, restaurant, church, or movie theater, though I carry in them all. A simple wrong move on the road could set off some nuts road rage behind the wheel of the offended car......it's happened here twice that I know, guns blazing. I'm most on guard in parking lots at night, especailly at the mall, where the mall rules says no carry.....yea, right.

Never needed to draw and hopefully never will, but always carry just in case. What's the saying?, "carry 24/7 or guess right"........................ck

TripIII
April 29, 2008, 09:07 PM
Agree...when I least expect it. So dress appropriately.

ajaxinacan
April 29, 2008, 09:17 PM
1. Bad neighborhood near the airport where I work, any time of day.
2. Bad neighborhood near the small rural airports in my state, especially at night.
3. Stop-and-robs, any time of day.
4. Fast food shops, any time of day.
5. Malls.
6. Travelling.

All people have "what-if" scenarios in their head. Not always about self defense, sometimes about car accidents or in my business, airplane crashes. One thing they all have in common: They take place MUCH TOO SLOWLY. Real emergencies take place at lightning speed. I investigated a crash last year where the pilot went from waving and smiling to completely dead in three seconds. THREE SECONDS. All pilots imagine stalling the aircraft at 8000 feet. Trouble is, the ones that kill happen at 300 feet, and nobody is thinking about those (except the pilots who want to stay alive).

When you imagine defending your life, imagine acting fast. I recently got some sage advice from a firearms instructor who said, "a mediorcre plan right now is better than a perfect plan three seconds from now".

JMHO

Dwight55
April 29, 2008, 09:52 PM
Due to the nature of attacks in the central Ohio area being about as varied as possible, . . . I train for and expect almost anything to happen any time.

There are areas where I just simply am not welcome, am suspect, and/or are a target. I avoid them as much as I can, . . . but there are times I cannot.

I guess my biggest fear is just winding up in the wrong place at the wrong time: Luby's in Texas, McDonalds in San Ysidro, or a corner hijacking are the ones that come to mind.

Guess a feller just needs to keep prayed up and all magazines full.

May God bless,
Dwight

Triple8
May 1, 2008, 11:47 PM
You never know how, just a question of when. Any time you are outnumbered in a parking lot these days you need to stay alert. That's the most likely scenario for me, punks out for kicks...

chris in va
May 2, 2008, 12:58 AM
I guess my greatest concern (vs fear) is...of the unknown and being caught unawares. I try to strike a balance between enjoying my life on this planet (condition white) and making sure my bases are covered.

Anything can happen, any time. And nothing can happen too. We may go our whole life not needing this 2.5# piece of steel on our hips.

ChicagoTex
May 2, 2008, 01:32 AM
2.5#? Hah! Mine's only 1.38# :D... does that mean I'm having roughly 45% more fun than you? :confused:

ghalleen
May 2, 2008, 02:50 AM
I've been robbed three times at gunpoint.

You have terrible luck. Have you considered moving elsewhere? Like maybe the mountains of Wyoming? ;)

Erik
May 2, 2008, 01:11 PM
I train for dealing with a variety of situations, but close, sudden violence aimed at myself or another is my most anticipated; it happens to also be the most likely.

TargetTerror
May 2, 2008, 01:48 PM
As an aside, that raises an interesting question - who's legally liable for the damage to vehicles from me and the bg shooting at each other? Are we each responsible for our own bullets, or is the initial criminal actor responsible for all damages caused as a byproduct of his criminal act? I realize were this circumstance to come up that would be the least of my worries, but I'm still curious.

chicagotex, afaik, in most jurisdictions, the shooter is liable for their own bullets. There was a case, Hall v McBryde, where this essentially came up. Teenager (nongangbanger) went to his parents house to get some items, and some gangbangers do a driveby. Teenager gets parents' gun and returns fire, striking a neighbor. (The neighbor actually went after the parents, claiming negligent supervision, but the parents prevailed b/c there son was not known to be violent.) I don't believe they ever went after the teenager, but the issue of culpability did arise.

The Restatement of Torts (basically a treatise by judges/law professors on what the law should be - state may or may not choose to adopt it) deals with this issue in section 16:


(1) If an act is done with the intention of inflicting upon another an offensive but not a harmful bodily contact, or of putting another in apprehension of either a harmful or offensive bodily contact, and such act causes a bodily contact to the other, the actor is liable to the other for a battery although the act was not done with the intention of bringing about the resulting bodily harm.

(2) If an act is done with the intention of affecting a third person in the manner stated in subsection (1), but causes a harmful bodily contact to another, the actor is liable to such other as fully as though he intended so to affect him.

It is basically the Transferred Intent Doctrine - if you intended to cuase harm to A, but cause harm to B, your intent will carry through to your actions against B and you will be liable for an intentional tort (I'm just talking about civil liability here - criminal liability can be a little different).

I think the analysis would work out like this: BG threatens you, you fire upon BG, striking him, and also strike innocent bystander C. You have committed an assault and battery against both BG and C. You would have a true defense of self defense against BG, and should prevail provided you meet the criteria for self defense (true defense means you admit that you did it but...) However, self defense will not work as a defense for your battery against C b/c C was not an imminent threat to you. Moreover, because you intended to shoot BG, this intent will transfer to your shooting of C, making it a battery.

C would also have causes of action against you for negligence, as you have a duty when firing any gun to fire it in a safe manner. This could be used to recover for any property damage, or for personal/physical damages should a battery claim against you fail.

You could try a Justification defense, but this will likely fail. Your argument would be "I was justified in accidently/negligently shooting C because I was being threatened by BG." I can't imagine any court or jury that would allow you to hurt an innocent 3rd party to prevent injury to yourself. Justification is typically used where the damages are not so physical.

I think this makes sense too from a public policy perspective. If you absolve the defender of any responsibility, what is to stop them from going spray and pray style in a crowded area when threatened? This is certainly a touchy issue, and I am on the fence about it. Obviously, I think if you defend yourself and you shoot, a bystander, you did so only because of the actions of the BG. But I think you need to look at the bystander's perspective too. They shouldn't have to endure being shot by you by virtue of you being in danger from BG. Holding you accountable would make you more careful, and thus less likely to hurt an innocent bystander.

Can you tell I have my Torts final tomorrow? :p

MLeake
May 2, 2008, 01:58 PM
In your example, if Party A was within his rights to fire on Party B, then there wouldn't be intent to commit an unlawful assault and battery on B. It should follow that there would be no transfer of unlawful intent with regard to Party C, since no unlawful intent existed in the first place. It is not a given that assault and battery charges would be filed, and definitely not a given that a conviction would ensue, based on injury to Party C.

However, if it were determined that a reasonable person would have foreseen the likely injury to bystanders due to crowded environment, etc, that might result in criminal charges that would stick.

Civil liability is a whole 'nother matter, and could attach more easily.

Please bear in mind that I am not a lawyer, and am just trying to analyze the logic of this example.

Cheers,

M

TargetTerror
May 2, 2008, 03:37 PM
MLeake, I was analyzing things strictly from the perspective of torts/civil liability, as that is what chicagotex was originally asking about. You can be held liable for the tort of Assault and the tort of Battery, irrespective of any criminal liability for those acts.

One key thing that many people don't realize is that a self defense argument is an excuse or justification argument. You are admitting to everything that the prosecution/plaintiff is alleging, but saying you should not be held liable/convicted because of excuse X. So in the example I gave in post 29, there was intent to commit the torts of Battery and Assault against BG, regardless of whether the goodguy (Party A) has a valid self defense claim. This intent can then be transferred to bystander C.

In many ways though, none of the above matters, because that is just for intentional torts. Bystander C will have a valid claim for negligence against shooter A. Anyone, shooter A included, has a duty to everyone to handle and shoot a firearm such that people are not accidentally shot. This duty was breached when A negligently shot C, and C suffered damages as a result.

I don't envision this basic scheme changing significantly anytime soon to remove the burden of liability from shooter A. At best, a state may pass a law forcing a BG to indemnify any acts that arise from a valid self defense action against them. But, shooter A would still be liable to bystander C, all that changes is shooter A could then sue BG to recover what A owes C. And good luck getting a dime out of your typical bg...

Criminal Law was last semester, so obviously I've drained the bathtub on all of that knowledge by now :D But, IIRC, transferred intent and defenses should work in a similar fashion to what I've described for torts.

AirForceShooter
May 4, 2008, 10:41 AM
my most likely need would be post hurricane.
After that travel or shopping malls.

I've been in the post hurricane senario.
You know, the signs that say "you loot, we shoot"
We weren't kidding.

AFS

Harry Callahan
May 4, 2008, 11:24 AM
I have thought about having to deal with all the above scenarios. Of course, living in Illinois, I will be at the mercy of the 911 response time. But that aside I think the convention in Denver could be interesting. Has all the makings of something that could get very ugly, very fast. I'm not sure that Denver property owners realize that damage caused by riots and insurrections are NOT covered by most homeowners insurance policies:eek:.

PT111
May 4, 2008, 02:57 PM
1. Robbery while filling up the gas take. (Panhandlers are rampant around here).
2. Attacked or robbed while walking from car to mall/wal-mart/restaurant etc.
3. Road Rage incident
4. While taking my evening walk through the neighborhood.
5. Anytime I am out of town and staying at a motel.
.
.
.
x. Odds of something happening while in a crowded mall are about the same as winning lottery to me.

The standard fears that seem to bother some people so much such as the VT, Ludys, mall shootings etc. just do not bother me at all. I figure my college student daughters are 1,000 time more likely to be attacked while walking to class than they will be in class. In fact I figure that in class is one of the safest places they can be.

Ruthless4christ
May 4, 2008, 07:17 PM
down here in guatemala, most alert moments are,

1 coming out of the bank, most people know my car and expect a gringo to come out of the bank with lots of goodies.

2 Driving: either on the highway or in the mountains. its jsut like the wild west where there are bandits who carjack people to kidnap, rob or steal loads.

3 as FER mentioned on a thread before leaving and entering my own front door.

Mannlicher
May 6, 2008, 03:42 PM
The most likely thing I face is a robbery attempt away from the house. I feel that keeping your awareness at high level, knowing your surroundings, and watching for those things that are 'just not right', are the first line of defense.
I will walk away from trouble before I confront it, but if push comes to shove, I feel I am prepared mentally and so far as equipment goes.

chilie23
May 6, 2008, 08:21 PM
To quote an earlier poster
banks in Ohio are off limits to guns

that is FALSE. Unless the bank manager decides to post a no guns allowed sing, which does not carry criminal penalties unless you are asked to leave and refuse. Basically it comes down to if the entity is governemnt funded, like a police station, a court house, a school or university than you cannot carry. This does not apply to libraries. IANAL

DieHard06
May 6, 2008, 08:35 PM
Being in eastern PA near Phili, NYC, and New Jersey, I am most worried about having to defend myself on the road in my car.

Second would be walking down the street or in a parking lot.

2cooltoolz
May 6, 2008, 08:40 PM
Quote:
I've been robbed three times at gunpoint.

You have terrible luck. Have you considered moving elsewhere? Like maybe the mountains of Wyoming?

No, I've had great luck. I've lost an automobile (insured) and a wallet (a few bucks and some cancellable credit cards), but I'm still here. And I did move, from "inside the loop" Houston to the great metropolis of Willis, TX on Lake Conroe to raise my daughter.

dabigguns357
May 7, 2008, 07:43 AM
Here is my worst fear that came true,and why i am going today to pick up my new sg239.I usually work nights so i was wide awake playing with my infant son,my wife had just gone to bed.I here knocking on the door,so i go and get my only home defense weapon i have right now[12 g slug gun],and set it by the door to my left.I open the door and this guy was standing there wanting to know where so an so is.I very nicely told him that he had the wrong house and that no one live here by that name.Thats when he became persistant and kept coming closer to me and trying to look over my shoulder to see further in the house.He acually got close enough to me that i could smell the alcohal on his breath.Thats when i got real peaved and stepped back to close the door. Thats when it all kinda went down hill.He stuck his foot in the door to keep me from closing it.I knew i had to do something and fast.I let go of the door as i grabbed my 12g and stuck it in his face.Well he just stood there frozen for a moment,then turned and backed down the steps.I did call 911 but there was nothing they could really do because there was no theft or vandalism .Never in my life have i ever been that scared.Since then i had started working day shift and installed night vision cameras all around. Yes we are also looking for another place to live as well.


As for malls,crazy drivers,and parking lots we don't frequent them enough to worry about yet,but my family and my home i now know i will always have to worry about.

DeathRodent
May 10, 2008, 02:54 AM
I sort of agree with PBP - I'n not to concerned about a mall shooting but being in the wrong part of town when or if a riot breaks out.

I still remember the trucker (Reginald Denny?) getting pulled out of his truck during the Rodney King riots back in 92 in LA. I don't (won't) let that happen to me. It could be road rage, riot, or whatever but I think I'd have time to open a messenger bag.

vox rationis
May 12, 2008, 07:59 PM
I still remember the trucker (Reginald Denny?) getting pulled out of his truck during the Rodney King riots back in 92 in LA. I don't (won't) let that happen to me. It could be road rage, riot, or whatever but I think I'd have time to open a messenger bag.

I was in LA at that time and actually saw that live on a local station..It is too bad Denny stopped his forward progress in that intersection and allowed himself to be pulled out of his cab.

Many people just stopped and allowed those disgusting thugs to pull them out and beat them close to their deaths. The best defense in that situation would be to make sure one's doors were locked plus a strategic use of the accelerator.