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View Full Version : Road Rage Today. What would you do?


joegator
April 28, 2008, 05:53 PM
I was driving to work today around 7:30 this morning. Two cars, a small Toyota and a full size Dodge, approached a southbound road from opposite directions.The Toyota came from the west and swung a wide turn crossing over two lanes. Bad driving skills to say the least. In the process he almost side swiped the Dodge. I thought to myself those guys are lucky it was a close near miss. Then the Dodge guy decides to pursue the Toyota. He pulls out in front of the Toyota and then cuts in front of the Toyota at a 60 degree angle forcing the Toyota off the road and blocking his escape route. The Dodge driver then jumped out of his car and ran up to the other driver screaming. The Toyota driver's window was down. I thought to myself I wonder if the Toyota driver has a Carry Permit and at what point would it be within his right to pull it and use it. I wasn't able to stop and don't know the outcome but I did call 911 and told the operator to send a unit to a road rage scenerio. I kept asking myself what would I have done. My buddy said he would have stuck his 45 in the road rage warriors face and told him to back off. What would you have done?

dipper
April 28, 2008, 06:13 PM
I would not have pulled my gun UNTIL the other guy pulled a knife or gun on me or I had VERY reasonable expectations that he would---like him saying he was going to shoot me.
Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!
YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible.
I would have rolled my window up and Backed up to get away--if I couldn't do that I would have used my cell phone to call 911 and told the operator what was happening and I was in fear for my life or whatever---get it on tape and leave the phone on till police arrived or the guy left.
I would have gotten his license plate number and vehicle description for the police and also what the dude looked like.
In short, you can/should only meet deadly force with deadly force--you can not shoot someone unless a normal average everyday sane person thinks that it was called for----that means a JURY!!
The guy would get in a huge amount of hot water for pulling a stunt like that on a highway---pulling some one over and in effect detaining them.

Dipper

Mainah
April 28, 2008, 06:14 PM
Depends on the road, if it was the 405 in LA I would of called 911 and kept going. If it was a two lane remote blacktop like the roads I drive I would of pulled ahead a safe distance pulled over and then called 911. I wouldn't get involved, but I'd hope that by being a visible witness I might distract the aggressive driver. If he came after me I'd drive away.

The Toyota guy should of rolled up his window and backed away. When you get caught up in road rage you are not in control of the situation.

spacemanspiff
April 28, 2008, 06:21 PM
Close the windows, lock the doors, and call 911. An enraged driver jumping up and down and screaming obscenities is not a valid reason to brandish my weapon.

Carrying concealed means you have to have a cool head, try to de-escalate whenever possible.

Ridge_Runner_5
April 28, 2008, 06:33 PM
Toyota driver should get a clue and learn how to drive...they had it coming for endangering the safety of themselves and the occupants of the Dodge...

bcrash15
April 28, 2008, 06:34 PM
While I would hope I would never be the cause of such a situation (though you never know what people will go psycho over anymore), in my opinion, pulling a gun shouldn't be an option until the guy is either arming himself and/or is trying to break into your car.

RetiredMajor
April 28, 2008, 06:42 PM
Ridge Runner 5, that was a very poor response in my opinion. No one should drive like the Toyota driver did, but in this day and age, what the Dodge driver did is a good way to get killed or kill someone, over bad driving. Escalating the situation is the wrong answer.

kgpcr
April 28, 2008, 06:59 PM
Spaceman you are DEAD ON! good advice!!

Spade Cooley
April 28, 2008, 07:29 PM
There had to be an escape route for the driver who was forced off the road. He should keep his windows up, doors locked, drive in reverse and get out of there. If there was a way to drive into that spot there was a way out. Call 911 if you have a cell phone but don't get into a confrontation with the other driver because he is enraged and wants to tear your head off. It would be bad business to pull or use a gun in this instance unless threatened with some kind of a deadly weapon or a severe beating.

Calling 911 was the best option for the witness.

Shadi Khalil
April 28, 2008, 07:54 PM
I had a road rage incident this weekend

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291962

Sometimes you have to draw but you dont always have to shoot.

Don H
April 28, 2008, 08:27 PM
Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!
YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible.

Perhaps that is true in whatever state you live in but it is certainly not true in every state.

Troy26
April 28, 2008, 09:23 PM
YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible

Not always true. In some states (including Kentucky) you are within your rights to stand your ground against an attacker

ActivShootr
April 28, 2008, 09:33 PM
Toyota driver should get a clue and learn how to drive...they had it coming for endangering the safety of themselves and the occupants of the Dodge...


Do you drive a Dodge? :D;)

ghalleen
April 28, 2008, 09:42 PM
First of all, you do NOT always have an obligation to retreat. This varies widely by state. This is where it is critical that you understand the laws in your area.

That said, it is always best to retreat if you can do it safely.

In this situation, as described, I hope that I would:


Put the car in gear (forward or reverse) and leave or be prepared to leave.
Call 911.
Leave the windows rolled up.
Keep my cool.
Have my handgun readily accessible, but not necessarily in my hand.


Remember, that if you are in your vehicle, it makes a tremendous weapon in itself if the aggressor draws a weapon of any type.

vox rationis
April 28, 2008, 09:42 PM
I believe that in Texas the castle doctrine has been extended to include one's automobile.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in Texas, if the Road Rager breaks your window and starts pummeling you (especially if this is after he just ran you off the road and blocked your escape), I believe that you would be legally justified to defend yourself, and if you were in fear for your life, that could include deadly force.

Anyway, I suppose this can be a good case for having Pepper Spray on hand. In the above stated scenario, if the Dodge dude was fixing to pummel, maybe Spray, Reverse, Escape, call 911 would have been a good option.

zxcvbob
April 28, 2008, 09:51 PM
This thread reminds me that I should carry my extra hunting knife in my truck... where it will be within quick reach if someone breaks the glass and tries to get it. Or maybe a straight razor...

TexasSeaRay
April 28, 2008, 10:01 PM
If I'm the Toyota driver, I'm going to be apologizing profusely for driving like an idiot and causing the Dodge driver to stop by Wal-Mart on his way to wherever he was going and buy a new pair of underwear.

But if I'm not doing anything wrong other than driving at or near the speed limit and I have some yahoo tailgating me, with ample opportunity to pass or otherwise get around me, and he follows me and follows me and follows me, and THEN pulls the kind of stunt the Dodge driver did . . . .

Well, the ex-military and ex-cop comes out in a hurry, and Mr. Dodge Driver will be looking at the business end of a .45 for the split second it takes me to get out of my truck and put this guy spread eagle on the ground.

THEN we'll have a little chat about just how many milliseconds Mr. Dodge Driver had before he became little more than a memory and how it is a very good idea to simply assume that every driver he encounters from this moment on might just be a former Navy SEAL or Army Green Beret or Marine Recon soldier or Air Commando who doesn't take to such macho bravado foolishness and gets downright testy when feeling threatened.

Don't expect most of you will like my response at all, and don't really care. But if I do everything I can possibly do to avoid trouble, yet if Trouble INSISTS on seeking me out, then I'm going to deal with said Trouble how I've been trained to deal with it.

And maybe, just maybe, next time Trouble won't be so anxious to be Stupid when given the opportunity.

Likewise, I don't begrudge anyone else who would choose to call 9-1-1, or back up and try to flee the scene.

Everyone handles Trouble their own way. But I don't trust any idiot who will A) cut me off and then B) cut in front of me, and stop--forcing ME to suddenly stop, and then C) jump out of their car/truck and run to mine screaming obscenities.

Jeff

bushidomosquito
April 28, 2008, 10:05 PM
Pull your gun, hold it calmly where the angry guy can see it but do not point it at him and stare him down without saying a word. This is not "brandishing", it's just letting him know that if he want's to continue to esclate the situation it will turn out badly for him and if his reason for acting tough and macho is to scare you then it won't work. Another idea that many are sure to scoff at is the much maligned concealed carry badge. People respect that shield and if some jerk decides to go road rage on you by beating on the window and yelling to get out of the car then pressing that shield to the glass will diffuse the situation 99.9% of the time. Everyone knows that a badge always has a gun behind it to back it up. If someone is flying off the handle they're not going to take the time to read the fine print and even if they do it says you have a gun. Seems like an object that says "I will shoot you" without having to point a gun would be pretty usefull.

Wildalaska
April 28, 2008, 10:14 PM
My motto is when I am in the car is like my motto whenI am on the street. When confronted with a self defense situation, and I am able to do so in safety, I...

Run/drive away screaming like an 8 year old girl......

WildisoundgreatAlaska TM

zxcvbob
April 28, 2008, 10:19 PM
[if] I am able to do so in safety, I...
Run/drive away screaming like an 8 year old girl......


That really is a great plan (and I mean that.) Sometimes it's also nice to have a backup plan. :)

tc556guy
April 28, 2008, 10:32 PM
As indicated, in most states you have a duty to retreat. Even in the handful of states where you don't have to, its still a good idea to make an attempt to leave. If the situation devolves to a shooting situation, it wil work to your benefit that you attempted to safely retreat but for whatever reason, could not. Don't have some fantasy of blowing some guy away. I doubt the fantasy will live up to reality.

nate45
April 28, 2008, 10:36 PM
In the process he almost side swiped the Dodge. I thought to myself those guys are lucky it was a close near miss.

There was no accident there 'almost' was, Dodge driver has no self control and is more than likely an egotistcal a-hole. Even if there were an accident thats what police and insurance are for. People are stupid and make dumb mistakes 24/7, get used to it. I myself always expect other drivers to do something stupid and I'm usually not disappointed.

P.S. I'm a recovering psychopath and 10 years ago would of shot Dodge driver and driven off. Seriously.

Wildalaska
April 28, 2008, 10:39 PM
Sometimes it's also nice to have a backup plan.

I can cry and pee myself...nothing defuses road rage more than screaming and groveling and crying and wetting yourself (hand on Seecamp of course)...

Flattery combined with the foregoing is good too...

"O PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE DONT HURT ME MR, I AM SO SMALL AND WEAK AND YOU ARE SO STRONG AND BRAVE PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE *wetspot starts* I WAS WRONG TO EXPECT YOU TO STOP AT THAT STOP SIGN, PLEASE FORGIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMEEEEEEEEEEE"

Never have to draw down :)

WildcallmelittlelucyAlaska TM

JohnKSa
April 29, 2008, 01:49 AM
Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!The first CHL shooting in TX was a road rage incident that resulted in the death of an unarmed man who was punching the CHL holder.

The CHL holder was acquitted.

That's certainly not to say it's justified in every situation--in this case the CHL holder suffered permanent injuries as a result of the beating and had no way to escape. At the same time it's also not correct to say that it's automatically outside the law. You are correct in that if you do, it will probably go to a jury.

The TX castle doctrine gives you the right to respond to the appropriate type of criminal attack without retreating if you have a right to be where you are. I don't believe that it extends the same self-defense rights you have in your home to your vehicle, however.

<<<<Correction. Son of Vlad Tepes is correct that at least some of the castle doctrine applies to an occupied vehicle.>>>>

dipper
April 29, 2008, 03:47 AM
God Bless Texas ---as they say---and I mean that!!
Texas laws are much more friendly to the homeowner/property owner than most states.

Dipper

bigbadbowtie
April 29, 2008, 08:21 AM
I believe Alabama has accepted the Castle Doctrine as well???

thallub
April 29, 2008, 08:33 AM
It takes two idiots to play road rage. If one refuses to play the silly game there is no road rage incident. Lots of people get cut off every day without going nuts and running folks off the road.

tc556guy
April 29, 2008, 08:56 AM
"I believe Alabama has accepted the castle Docrine as well???"

Every state says that your home is your castle and that you have no obligation to retreat from criminals in your home. Or are you using another definition of castle doctrine?

bigbadbowtie
April 29, 2008, 11:13 AM
After posting that I went and looked at the Wiki for Castle Doctrine.

Good Info.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_duty_to_retreat

Dmanbass
April 29, 2008, 11:25 AM
Just goes ta show ya. Watch out for Toyota's and Dodge's :D

YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible.

Someone stated the above sentence but it is not true in all states.
I would ask this: "An obligation to who?"

DonR101395
April 29, 2008, 11:34 AM
I would not have pulled my gun UNTIL the other guy pulled a knife or gun on me or I had VERY reasonable expectations that he would---like him saying he was going to shoot me.

I may not present it immediately, but if I'm run off the road in the manner described, I'm not waiting until he has more of the upper hand to decide to get it out.


Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!
YOU have an obligation to retreat if at all possible.

Not necessarily true in FL where this took place. I'm not going to speculate on whether the guy should have been shot or what I would have or have not done since I wasn't there.


I would have rolled my window up and Backed up to get away--if I couldn't do that I would have used my cell phone to call 911 and told the operator what was happening and I was in fear for my life or whatever---get it on tape and leave the phone on till police arrived or the guy left.

Agreed, but if I'm in fear for my life the gun is coming out in view and quite possible being shot.;)



I would have gotten his license plate number and vehicle description for the police and also what the dude looked like.

Good call if he left the scene of an accident, which is what he caused by forcing me off the roadway.


In short, you can/should only meet deadly force with deadly force--you can not shoot someone unless a normal average everyday sane person thinks that it was called for----that means a JURY!!

Once again, fear for life comes into play, disparity of force etc. i.e old small guy vs. big roid raging road rage clown.



The guy would get in a huge amount of hot water for pulling a stunt like that on a highway---pulling some one over and in effect detaining them.

It could also get him dead.;)

dipper
April 29, 2008, 12:05 PM
Dmanbass,
Yourself, maybe your parents---how about your wife and kids or the innocent person behind your target---some people miss sometimes and I am pretty sure you are responsible for were your bullet ends up in any state.
Look, I am all for defending yourself, you can give a jury a couple of different pictures of yourself.
One--the guy did everything he could to avoid the confrontation, he tried to leave --he didn't want to shoot the guy--he had no choice--he's innocent.
Two---Dirty Harry couldn't wait to pull the trigger--this guy acted like he wanted to kill somebody and looks like he did---he could have left the scene but decided to stay and fight--he's guilty--he's a Rambo type.
Remember, there are two courts-- criminal and civil.
Don't always rely on witnesses either, 4 people can see 4 different things--I've been there.
All I'm saying, is look at deadly force as a last resort--don't be in a hurry to draw down on somebody or show your carrying.
I would much rather be judged by twelve that carried by six too--but use your best judgement--always.


Dipper

Bogie
April 29, 2008, 12:17 PM
I assume that everyone on the road but me is an idiot - I'm a cager now, but back in the dark ages of my misspent yout, that saved me a couple of times...

I also assume that they are hypercompetitive jerks, and just let them go on. I usually coast up to them at the next stop light or the next traffic clot.

I also assume that if they are hypercompetitive jerks that they are possibly illegally armed and might have criminal intent. Moreso if there are two or more young males in a vehicle and they aren't wearing work clothes. So I just avoid them.

Road rage generally takes two participants.

ASERO45ACP
April 29, 2008, 12:19 PM
On situation like this, you dont want to pull your gun out and wave it to the guy that is screaming on you. The Toyota driver is an idiot for driving the way he did. Regardless of the situation if an aggresor is attacking me with a weapon then I would pull my gun and shoot the aggresor.

tc556guy
April 29, 2008, 12:19 PM
"Someone stated the above sentence but it is not true in all states.
I would ask this: "An obligation to who?""

An obligation under the law.

rantingredneck
April 29, 2008, 12:36 PM
Roll up windows, lock doors, call 911. Be prepared to draw your weapon if he starts breaking into your vehicle to attack you.

Reasonable fear of death or severe injury is the standard in most states. Some enraged fellow starts breaking into my car to attack me I feel I would reasonably be in fear of at least severe injury.

As an aside, the one and only time I've ever drawn a weapon was when someone was attempting to break into my vehicle with me in it. Wasn't road rage, but rather a sketchy looking fellow (read "crackhead") who wanted money and I wasn't in a giving mood. My window was rolled up and doors were locked. When I refused to roll down my window he started yanking on the doorhandle and pounding on the window. I drew my 9mm from concealment. I didn't aim it at him at that point, but it was definitely in low ready. He backed away and I went about my business. I did not have a cell phone at that time, they were not as prevalent as they are today.

CyberSEAL
April 29, 2008, 12:44 PM
I would have been too embarrassed at my ****-poor driving skills to have drawn on the guy...

funon1
April 29, 2008, 05:31 PM
Honestly, my response depends on the other person's actions, my perceived danger level and my anger level. My first experience up close and personal was when I was leaving a parking lot and I pulled in fromt of another guy leaving. As I stopped for traffic, I see him flip me off, jump out of his car, run up to my driver's side and say "what the @#$%^#$%^&*#$%^&* do you !@W#E$%R^&*( think !@#$%^&8doing. I cracked the window about two inches as he rapped on the glass with a fist and I politely said "I am sorry if I cut you off, I did not mean to." The response was something like "alright, next time I'm kicking your!@#$%. We went our separate ways. No need for gunplay or to escalate the situation. I think sometimes just swallowing your pride and being polite works wonders.

Another time when I was riding my motorcycle, I had a car pull into my lane beside me, actually forcing me into oncoming traffic. I was almost killed. I was furious as I thought it was done on purpose. I did not pull my gun, of course, but I rode up along side the car at the next light and gave the driver an earful. When I saw it was a woman, I stopped mid sentence, she apologized and said she had not seen me. Obviously, I did too at that point and went on my way. I was ready for a fight that day, but thankfully it was a polite lady and not a smartass dude.

One night I was driving downtown and had a car with a couple of unsavory characters pulling along side of me, making gestures and such. They pulled in front of me and hit the brakes. I swerved around them and they gave chase. A few moments later, I decided they very well might kill me with their car, if nothing else as they were weaving in and out of lanes and forcing other traffic over. I took two quick turns, pulled a 180 stepped to the side of the car for cover and drew my gun. They drove right past, apparently never seeing my turns. Problem solved. Thank God. I was sure, I was the little bangers next intended victim and I had resolved not to go out like that.

Bottom line: treat people with respect, keep your own emotions in check, use your manners and get out of the way instead of engaging the idiots and you may never have to make your 15 minutes of fame on the nightly news.

Funon1

Dragunov54
April 29, 2008, 05:36 PM
What would you have done?

Given the scenario you just described, I would have showed him the business end of my Glock 19 and looked for an avenue of escape.

ghalleen
April 29, 2008, 09:20 PM
Given the scenario you just described, I would have showed him the business end of my Glock 19 and looked for an avenue of escape.

This very likely will see you visited by police, as well as losing your concealed permit. Again, varies by state...

Dmanbass
April 29, 2008, 09:42 PM
Dipper.

I was referring to the obligation to the law. I always look at force as a last resort. Lawfully of course. I myself had indeed considered your examples prior to my post. Not to consider them would be irresponsible and I know you didn't think I am. :D

Good warning for those that think shoot first think later!

dipper
April 29, 2008, 09:48 PM
Dmanbass,
don't think your irresponsible at all:).

Peace

dipper

CyberSEAL
April 29, 2008, 10:03 PM
This very likely will see you visited by police, as well as losing your concealed permit. Again, varies by state...

Uhh...no. His primary escape route is blocked and the BG is closing in from a range of a few meters (from the time he came around his van and became visible). You have a decent argument that you felt your life was in danger at that time. An uneducated cop may charge you, here in VA you'd get off easily, could probably talk to the prosecutor's office without a lawyer and get it dropped.

FM12
April 29, 2008, 10:11 PM
We had the same thing happen between two women drivers here in Alabama. IIRC, The offending driver ("driver #1) forced the other driver to the side of the road, then approached and became verbaly abusive. The defending driver (#2), feeling threatened, shot and killed driver #1. Driver 2 was convicted and went to jail. :confused:

zxcvbob
April 29, 2008, 10:18 PM
The offending driver ("driver #1) forced the other driver to the side of the road, then approached and became verbaly abusive. The defending driver (#2), feeling threatened, shot and killed driver #1. Driver 2 was convicted and went to jail.

Apparently the prosecutor and the grand jury and the real jury thought "verbally abusive" was not sufficient threat that a reasonable person would feel in danger of their life. She should have tried to escape (maybe she did), and waited to shoot until #1 broke a window or something.

This is very easy to say in hindsight and from a distance.

Mondo
April 29, 2008, 10:23 PM
http://www.trunkmonkey.com/content/view/28/1/

tc556guy
April 29, 2008, 11:07 PM
Uhh...no. His primary escape route is blocked and the BG is closing in from a range of a few meters (from the time he came around his van and became visible). You have a decent argument that you felt your life was in danger at that time.

You talking about the OPs scenario? As the driver being confronted, you would have the option of backing away and leaving before needing to use force.

TexasSeaRay
April 29, 2008, 11:57 PM
This very likely will see you visited by police, as well as losing your concealed permit. Again, varies by state...

I groan every time I read one of these "tidbits" of wisdom.

Ever been a cop? I have, and I can count on one hand the number of calls I--or any other cop I ever knew--went out to find a "gun-brandishing" suspect when it was an obvious road rage case, as described by the dispatcher.

DISPATCH: Nine one one, what's you emergency?

DODGE VAN DRIVER: Some idiot in a Toyota almost ran me off the road. When I did a 180 and chased him down to raise hell and forced him off the road and ran up to his window yelling and cussing, the little SOB pulled a GUN on me! You need to go arrest that guy!

DISPATCH: Your name, sir?

Incident over.

Secondly, unless the Dodge Driver (or whoever) gets a positive license tag, your chances of being found by the police--especially in a metro area--are just about zilch.

Thirdly, in order and priority of calls that a cop is ALREADY in line for, chasing ghosts doesn't warrant a whole lot of urgency.

Quote:
Uhh...no. His primary escape route is blocked and the BG is closing in from a range of a few meters (from the time he came around his van and became visible). You have a decent argument that you felt your life was in danger at that time.
You talking about the OPs scenario? As the driver being confronted, you would have the option of backing away and leaving before needing to use force.

Sorry, but you don't always have the option of "backing away and leaving" as easily as it sounds, or as easy as your local part-time cop/CCL instructor wants you to believe.

Not easy to back up on a crowded, fast-moving highway or interstate--even less easy when you're scared for your well-being.

Escape is not always a readily and instantly available option (think SERE school).

And I'm with my shipmate in VA--I'd be too embarassed about my lousy driving skills. Which is why in my first post, I stated that I'd be apologizing profusely to the Dodge driver and offering to buy him a new pair of underwear since it was my fault his probably got soiled.

Now, if I do absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever and some jerkoff pulls this kind of stunt, different game on the wrong playground and definitely the wrong playmate.

Jeff

rugersp101
April 30, 2008, 12:06 AM
Well it figures my state, Virginia, has no castle doctrine listed! I thought Virginia was part of the Old South and would be for protecting ones home and family. I just do not have respect for that, my Ranger Training doctrine taught me to NEVER retreat and If someone is in my home trying to kill my wife or family, they will be dead, very swiftly. I'll go to prison with a smile on my face for these communist laws and bureaucrats if it means saving innocent lives.

ghalleen
April 30, 2008, 12:22 AM
I groan every time I read one of these "tidbits" of wisdom.

Why? Does it make sense to you to point the "business end of a G19" at anyone when you don't intend to shoot?

If you do not fear for your life, you have no business pointing a gun at anyone, period, unless you're LEO in the line of duty.

tc556guy
April 30, 2008, 12:30 AM
Well it figures my state, Virginia, has no castle doctrine listed! I thought Virginia was part of the Old South and would be for protecting ones home and family. I just do not have respect for that, my Ranger Training doctrine taught me to NEVER retreat and If someone is in my home trying to kill my wife or family, they will be dead, very swiftly. I'll go to prison with a smile on my face for these communist laws and bureaucrats if it means saving innocent lives.

I believe the list is inaccurate. The last I knew, Massachusetts was the last state that believed you had to retreat from your own home in the face of criminal activity. That state changed its law on the matter several years ago.

Ever been a cop? I have, and I can count on one hand the number of calls I--or any other cop I ever knew--went out to find a "gun-brandishing" suspect when it was an obvious road rage case, as described by the dispatcher.

DISPATCH: Nine one one, what's you emergency?

DODGE VAN DRIVER: Some idiot in a Toyota almost ran me off the road. When I did a 180 and chased him down to raise hell and forced him off the road and ran up to his window yelling and cussing, the little SOB pulled a GUN on me! You need to go arrest that guy!

DISPATCH: Your name, sir?

Incident over.

In MY agency, it wouldn't be over. Dispatchers cannot dispose of a complaint over the phone. An officer would be dispatched and a report taken. There are three sides to every story, and for all you know, we'll get a call from the other party in short order. That happens.As to your point about about the plate, you are correct...no plate, and it wont go far.

Like you, I have had exactly one road rage case in twenty years that actually went "that far"...and it was the gun guys fault.

Sorry, but you don't always have the option of "backing away and leaving" as easily as it sounds, or as easy as your local part-time cop/CCL instructor wants you to believe.

It was described as having a primary means of escape blocked. That is straight ahead. The driver is not blocked in on the rear. You can back up.

I have 20 years on the Job, BTW.

JohnKSa
April 30, 2008, 12:36 AM
Does it make sense to you to point the "business end of a G19" at anyone when you don't intend to shoot?

If you do not fear for your life, you have no business pointing a gun at anyone, period...TX law allows a person to display a gun to create the apprehension that he will use deadly force if required. That tactic is not considered the same as actually using deadly force, and may be legally employed when force (as opposed to deadly force) is legally justified.

An example of a situation where force would be justified under TX law would be when a person: "...was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied...vehicle...[OR]... was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's...vehicle..."

In TX, at least, if someone is trying to break into and extricate you from your vehicle unlawfully and using force to do so, you would be well within your rights to show him that you have a firearm.

By the way, it appears that Son of Vlad Tepes was right in that at least some of the new TX Castle Doctrine applies to occupied vehicles.

TexasSeaRay
April 30, 2008, 01:16 AM
By the way, it appears that Son of Vlad Tepes was right in that at least some of the new TX Castle Doctrine applies to occupied vehicles.

I THINK. . . the law went into effect first of this year--states that one's vehicle (car, boat, airplane, RV) is an extension of their domicile, and just as one does not have a duty to retreat in one's home, nor does one have a duty to retreat if they have a legal right to be where they are at, doing what they are doing.

This is the simplified, non-lawyer version given to me by an AUSA I know in Fort Worth.

Why? Does it make sense to you to point the "business end of a G19" at anyone when you don't intend to shoot?

If you do not fear for your life, you have no business pointing a gun at anyone, period, unless you're LEO in the line of duty.

First, you're assuming that the person brandishing the Glock 19 doesn't intend to shoot, which is a dangerous assumption because the person with the Glock very well may be fearing for their life, well-being or safety.

Another consideration is that it might be better to brandish a weapon at some loudmouth road rage bully and advise him to "haul ass" rather than have it escalate to a genuine physical confrontation in which the bully might just get his butt stomped into the ground and hurt very badly.

REGARDLESS OF ANY "WHAT IF" SCENARIOS that can be dreamed up . . . getting all riled up in these idiotic road-rage incidents is just plain stupid. As someone else wisely pointed out, it takes two to make an incident--and I sure as hell am not going to willingly play along.

Jeff

Wildalaska
April 30, 2008, 01:22 AM
As someone else wisely pointed out, it takes two to make an incident--and I sure as hell am not going to willingly play along.


Thats the scream like a girl technique except in an adult fashion :)

WildturntheothercheekAlaska TM

mpage
April 30, 2008, 01:53 PM
The first CHL shooting in TX was a road rage incident that resulted in the death of an unarmed man who was punching the CHL holder.

The CHL holder was acquitted.

When you say "acquitted" I'm assuming that you mean he was in fact arrested by the police and had charges filed against him by the DA, and was acquitted in court(?)

Elephant_Man
April 30, 2008, 02:24 PM
eh.

1. Apply brass knuckles to the hand

2. Roll down window

3. Leave 4 dents in road ragers forehead

4. Drive away

:D

Dragunov54
April 30, 2008, 07:24 PM
This very likely will see you visited by police, as well as losing your concealed permit. Again, varies by state...

Well, once visited by police, I will explain to them the situation and why I presented my firearm. I would also state, I was in fear for losing my life and or being seriously harmed. I don't know what this screaming maniac will do? What is his past? Did he have a bad day at work? Is he dangerous? Did he just commit a violent crime? I don't have time to figure it out and I don't have time to question this offender. I can state, if some maniac causes me to stop in the road and blocks my escape, then exits his vehicle and aggressively heads for my drivers door, I know he is not handing me a Christmas Card. I can also tell you, he is in no state of mind to have a calm discussion. Sometimes, the end of a 9mm barrel does the talking and the offender will get the message. If he is smart he will back off and allow me to get away.

Why would I lose my Texas Concealed Weapons permit if I am put into a situation where I am defending my life or my family?

Again, varies by state... Does it? So you are saying I don't have the right to defend my life in the state I reside? :confused:

Sigma 40 Blaster
April 30, 2008, 07:28 PM
In TX I believe the law states that you may display or brandish a weapon under the same circumstances that using force (not DEADLY FORCE) would be legal.

The reaction of the other party would dictate what happens next.

I used to believe that everyone has a duty to retreat, no matter what your laws say but if someone is threatening your well being I now believe that you need to know the laws and use every thing at your legal disposal to defend yourself.

I see people saying that people who break into your house are probably not there to bring flowers...the idiot running up to my car window because I did something or he perceives I did something is probably not going to shake my hand and ask my name. A threat is a threat, just know the laws and what you can and can't do and go from there.

Dragunov54
April 30, 2008, 08:06 PM
Why? Does it make sense to you to point the "business end of a G19" at anyone when you don't intend to shoot?

It makes perfect sense. If I am drawing my weapon when I see a crazy man charging toward my car door, then I do intend to shoot to protect my life and my family's.

If you do not fear for your life, you have no business pointing a gun at anyone, period, unless you're LEO in the line of duty.

What? Policy, Procedure, and Training dictates when its ok for LEO's to draw their duty side arms. This is done in certain situations where danger is emanate to the LEO in felony traffic stops, serving high risk warrants, or investigations.

In the state of Texas, as an honest citizen, I don't have to articulate to the same level as an LEO when using my firearm is a deadly force situation.

ghalleen
April 30, 2008, 08:48 PM
Does it? So you are saying I don't have the right to defend my life in the state I reside?

Some states feel that way.

Luckily mine does not. :)

ghalleen
April 30, 2008, 08:49 PM
What? Policy, Procedure, and Training dictates when its ok for LEO's to draw their duty side arms. This is done in certain situations where danger is emanate to the LEO in felony traffic stops, serving high risk warrants, or investigations.

Exactly.

Dragunov54
April 30, 2008, 09:02 PM
Luckily mine does not.

Your state is?

Exactly.

Yes of course, but I am not an LEO. The use of deadly force and presenting a firearm dictates different for honest citizens. I am not performing felony warrants or apprehending felons on a daily basis. Texas law dictates honest citizens don't have to articulate under the same reasons as an LEO in the use of deadly force.

CPTMurdoc30
April 30, 2008, 10:35 PM
eh.

1. Apply brass knuckles to the hand

2. Roll down window

3. Leave 4 dents in road ragers forehead

4. Drive away

:D

I vote for that one or the Trunk Monkey. Either way I am free and clear.

Here is all I have to say. I see this kind of driving almost every day. I drive exactly 16.2 miles from my front door to my college parking lot. I get cut off and almost hit at-least 18 times each day I drive. Me personally I would have speed up a little just as Dodge driver is making his move to cut me off and then once the smoke settles I start screaming I CAN'T FEEL MY LEGS. or OH MY NECK HURTS. Most of the time I just slow down a little and let the idiots do what they want and let them go.

I knew I should have opened up a collision repair shop here I would be stinking rich driving a nice Bentley by now.

If either was driving a Chevy this would have never happened. Onstar is great got a nifty little red emergency button so they can give exact location to police as I tell them some 280# man with a beat red face is screaming at me because he just rammed my car and now I CAN'T FEEL MY LEGS.


Something very similar just happened to my wife. She was turning on to a street from our street making a left hand turn. 300# moron in GMC Yukon pulled out in front of her from a parking lot, she honks, he slams on breaks causing my wife to strike the driver side of his rear bumper. GMC Driver gets out of car and starts screaming at wife calling her a few names that no women should ever be called. She had forgotten her cell phone and driver fled scene of accident. She stated to police that she was scared for her life. Cops took tag number found driver 5 minutes later and explained to him that what he did could have ended badly and that he was lucky she was not injured in any way shape or form or else he would spend a few days in the slammer. Oh well He is now being sued for $1000 by the insurance company. What could have cost him nothing is now going to cost him $1000 or more. Jokes on him.

When in doubt let them hit you. Then Sue the crap out of them. I have just come to the realization that anyone can get a drivers license these days. In VA can't speak English no biggie fill out this and here is your DL have a nice day. Failed drivers training no biggie fill out this form and here is your DL. Have no clue what a car is no biggie fill out this form and here is your DL.

ghalleen
April 30, 2008, 11:35 PM
Your state is?

I live in Oregon. We might not be quite as gun-friendly as Texas, but overall it's a good place to live and own/carry a handgun.

The State of Oregon legislature is the only body permitted by our Constitution to pass any law/ordinance regulating firearms in any way. These keeps the liberal pockets from enacting the restrictions they keep trying.

There are very few places you cannot carry concealed in Oregon, and open carry is also permitted in most places, without a permit. For concealed carry, really the only places you cannot carry is:

Correction facilities and mental hospitals
Courthouses
Federal property (post offices, airports, National Parks)
Indian reservations, unless the tribe gives you permission.


In my state, you do not have an obligation to retreat, and if you're a bad guy in my house, you'd better run fast, because I'm not obligated to warn you before I shoot! :) Let's hope that never happens.

JohnKSa
April 30, 2008, 11:43 PM
When you say "acquitted" I'm assuming that you mean he was in fact arrested by the police and had charges filed against him by the DA, and was acquitted in court(?)Correct.When in doubt let them hit you.Careful with this, it's not like the movies. The CHL holder I mentioned above ended up with permanent hearing loss as a result of his beating.Some states feel that way.For what it's worth, most states have their statutes online and you can search them yourself if you're interested. Back before there were CHL classes to cover this material, I had to read the penal code on my own to figure out what was legal in terms of the use of force & deadly force in self-defense. It's not as simple as looking up a word in the dictionary, but it's not impossibly difficult either.

Wildalaska
May 1, 2008, 12:13 AM
Careful with this, it's not like the movies. The CHL holder I mentioned above ended up with permanent hearing loss as a result of his beating.

And if he hadn't , would he have been able to demonstrate the imposition of deadly physical force upon him justifying the use of deadly physical force?

WilditsallevidentiaryAlaska TM

JohnKSa
May 1, 2008, 12:24 AM
And if he hadn't , would he have been able to demonstrate the imposition of deadly physical force upon him justifying the use of deadly physical force.It's hard to say. It certainly didn't hurt his case any.

It also didn't hurt his case that the attacker was very large and he was very small. Nor that the attacker began beating him over a very minor accident (external rearview mirrors made contact). The facts that the CHL holder was tangled in his seatbelt and could not get loose and that the traffic didn't allow him to drive off were also helpful. And, according to one person who followed the case very closely, the "Born to Kill" tattoo on the attacker's arm made quite an impression on the jury as well.

Dmanbass
May 1, 2008, 12:18 PM
There's a whole new thread there about the impression of tattoo's on juries.

I want to say the input on this thread from LEO was very interesting and informative as was all others as well.

In spite of myself I just keep learning stuff here :D

Spade Cooley
May 1, 2008, 12:25 PM
And the most important item of all is what you say when the confrontation is over. Make up a good story. You don't have to tell the truth because chances are the other guy won't. When no one sees what happened you can make up a story to suit your actions. "The guy was obviously reaching for a weapon so I drew mine", etc. "I thought my life was in danger when he threatened me with that tire tool". "He said he was going to rip my head off". Be careful what you say when the situation is over and consult an attorney if in doubt. Be as smart as the bad boys are.

huskylover
May 1, 2008, 12:44 PM
Reading the responses in these types of threads concern me sometimes,especially considering the forums are read by anti-gun/CCW people as well I'm sure.The bottom line is thoroughly know the Laws in your State,for exposing your firearm as well as actually using it in self-defense.
No matter what your States Laws are in regarding these types of road rage scenerios or other "what if" situations.I would hope all of us would do are best to defuse,escape, exhaust all means without putting yourself in jeopardy before employing your firearm as a visual deterrent or firing it in self-defense.No matter what our Laws say,I believe we owe it to ourselves as mature,responsible,civilized human beings/gun owners to do our best to use our firearms as a last resort.All ya,watch your six and be safe out there.

huskylover
May 1, 2008, 12:49 PM
Spade; You've lost your damn mind.Not something a good citizen or responsible gun owner should be stating,especially publically on a forum.It's also a good way to spend alot of years in prison if the investigation reveals holes in your "story" Ya guy's really need to get your stuff in check before hitting the "submit reply" button.

ghalleen
May 1, 2008, 12:53 PM
That's very good advice, huskylover.

I would hate to see one of in a situation where we've been forced to protect ourselves, only to have a prosecutor or BG's attorney pull up a post from this forum that makes it look like we are trigger-happy and looking for a chance to blow someone away.

In my opinion, using my handgun for protection is an absolute LAST resort. I will always try to escape from an attacker if possible.

I run scenarios through my head all the time, and I'm sure the rest of you do, as well. Things like: "If I'm at the grocery store, and I hear a gun fire inside the store, what do I do? The answer depends on whether I'm alone or if my family/friends are with me. Are they beside me, or somewhere else in the store?" I make a note of where emergency exits are in every building I enter. This isn't just because I fear an attacker, but mostly because I want to know how to get out if there is a fire or earthquake. Mostly, though, I think it's because I am always aware of my surroundings.

Spade Cooley
May 1, 2008, 01:41 PM
Gentlemen,
It's simply a matter of survival. If you made a mistake in defending yourself against some bad boy that would do you harm, do you want to survive? Or would you rather have some civil rights attorney raking you over the coals? Do you think the bad guy would lie and make the case more favorable to himself? I'm giving you the facts of life on the street and you can go ahead and be honest Abe if you like. It might make you feel better about things as they take your savings in a lawsuit or put you behind bars. At least you will have the honor of saying you were honest.

Mannlicher
May 1, 2008, 03:43 PM
I don't see why the guy in the small car did not just roll up his window, and back up, drive away. Shooting other folks is usally not the answer.

Dmanbass
May 1, 2008, 03:52 PM
"Ya guy's really need to get your stuff in check before hitting the "submit reply" button".

Are you talking of more than one person here or just one. Or are you covering everyone in here?:confused:

JohnKSa
May 1, 2008, 04:47 PM
Make up a good story.Ok, I'm not going to address the possible issues with legality and just deal with it from a logical standpoint.

Better to stick to the facts. The state of forensics, the profusion of video cameras & cell phone cameras, and other factors make it very likely you'll get caught in a lie. If you are, it will hurt your case tremendously.

You're better off keeping your mouth shut and talking to a lawyer if you think the facts aren't going to help your case. Lying about it is not a good option, especially if you get caught.

BobR
May 1, 2008, 05:41 PM
Even IF the guy punches you, YOU ARE NOT WITHIN THE LAW TO SHOOT HIM!!

Here is Spokane we had a guy shoot and kill a rager in a parking lot after being puched. No charges against shooter. In fact the police won't even release his name to the famly of the rager so thay can sue in civil court.

bob

dipper
May 1, 2008, 06:19 PM
Sorry Bob,
Arrest records are public information---if the family gets a lawyer, he'll have the name in about 2.5 seconds----police can't with hold the info ---in any jurisdiction--for any reason.
There must have been a little more to the story than what your saying--about the rager.
Anyone is free to think what they like, roll the dice, whatever.
I have been to court a time or two--some one punches you in the mouth cause they think you jumped line at the movies or your favorite taco stand and you shoot them, you're in a world of hurt.

Dipper

BobR
May 1, 2008, 06:29 PM
Dipper,

I am not sure what the whole story is, but the police will not release the name. It may have been because of the threat of retaliation.

The incident happened in 2001.

I remember reading about two years ago the family was complaining because they could not find out the name of the guy who shot their loved one who was turning his life around and was a good boy. At the time they blamed the police and the prosecutors for not releasing the info.


http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2446

bob

Spade Cooley
May 1, 2008, 06:38 PM
The fact is most of us are rank amateurs when it comes to confrontations with Bad Guys. All I'm saying is, survival is the most important thing. You might have to fight dirty in order to survive.

None of us wants to take a life or shoot someone. If you do, be ready to be attacked by law enforcement, the courts and Civil Liberties attornies. It might be time to keep your mouth shut and consult a professional. If they can get a murderer off in our failed court system, anything can happen. They do it all the time. You could end up going up the river for defending yourself.

Note the border patrol officers who shot at drug smugglers. They are in the Pen. If they got their stories together and consulted with an attorney they would have fared better.

Learn to play the game and make it work for you like it works to protect crooks.

TexasSeaRay
May 1, 2008, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Make up a good story.
Ok, I'm not going to address the possible issues with legality and just deal with it from a logical standpoint.

Better to stick to the facts. The state of forensics, the profusion of video cameras & cell phone cameras, and other factors make it very likely you'll get caught in a lie. If you are, it will hurt your case tremendously.

Dead on, 100% correct.

One of the first things they taught as at Quantico, was when testifying, NEVER LIE. If you do, you'll have to remember how you lied the last time, and then time after that, and the time after that, and so on.

Sooner or later, you'll get busted--and when you do, even the civil affairs division of the US Attorney's Office will not be able to help you. Then, OPR (our version of IAD) comes along, and you're busted AGAIN.

Bad juju, man.

As a civilian, it can get just as bad.

Tell the truth.

I have been to court a time or two--some one punches you in the mouth cause they think you jumped line at the movies or your favorite taco stand and you shoot them, you're in a world of hurt.

I've been to court a time or two as well, and in simplified terms as you've put it, your statement will be right more often than not.

But some states also have a "disparity of force" defense. In a nutshell, if a 7'6" 400 pound Mr. Universe Golden Gloves kung fu tae kwon judo expert punches you in the face for basically no reason, you being 2'6" and twenty seven pounds soaking wet put a couple between the Hulk's massive pectorals, not too many prosecutors are going to take you to the grand jury.

And even fewer juries will take longer than ten/fifteen seconds of deliberation to acquit you.

Being a little facetious, but you get the point.

Likewise, here in Texas, if a gang (multiple) assailants attacks you, even with nothing more than fists and feet and you shoot one or all of them, disparity of force becomes a defense.

Of course, with any discussion of this nature, the tendency to veer off little bit by little bit until the discussion barely resembles the original scenario/question gets greater the further along it goes.

Easiest way to not have to ask "the question" is not be around when a "questionable event" occurs.

Jeff

vox rationis
May 1, 2008, 10:00 PM
Yes disparity of force is a very germane issue..
and furthermore one vicious punch to your upper lateral neck could result in a dissected vertebral artery, a vertebro-basilar stroke, and even death..so I wouldn't volunteer to "taking a few" just so I could the "sue the guy".

dipper
May 1, 2008, 10:33 PM
In a post earlier on in this thread, I mentioned the scenario of multiple attackers,
if you are being attack by more than one person, the use of deadly force is much more readily accepted.
Son of Vlad,
If your going to have a case based on " I was afraid the guy was going to hit me and I would have a stroke or some other fatal injury', you better know the medical stats on that because the prosecutor will---I can hear the Q and A now--how many boxers have died of that??
How many ultimate fighters have died like that? Football players??
What made you think that would happen to you?
How many fatalities of that nature do the emergency rooms across the country see??
The jury will hear the numbers and decide if YOUR THOUGHTS were reasonable to a everyday sane non rambo type mother, school teacher, nurse etc. etc. that is sitting on the jury.
Most of the case will be based on what happened not what could have happened or what you thought may happen.
Something else to consider, most cases are taken by a prosecuting attorney based on his ability to WIN!! That's right, not so much for justice but what he/she can win---build their record, get another notch on their belts.
So, if you think because a guy has 3 inches and 40 lbs. on you its " go to gun time", Good luck with that!!!


Dipper

huskylover
May 1, 2008, 10:38 PM
Dmanbass,No I wasn't referring to everyone.Just some members post statements that make me wonder if they have enough sense to be around firearms.Hey, they could be young kids,trolls or anti-gunners posting to start trouble or make gun owners look bad for all we know,but just in case they are legit,I hope they see the error of their ways of thinking.Cause some people on here post some crazy crap sometimes.

I'm not suggesting people run from their homes when confronted by a criminal.I'm not advocating allowing yourself to get attacked by a large group of unarmed thugs that will beat you into a vegetable.

If someone is road raging and flipped you the bird don't respond by flipping him off back,you are armed and have a duty not to esculate a situation.

If someone is making an armed robbery attempt at a conveince store while you are there,no one can tell you what you should do or should have done in response,because we are not there and every situation is different.In these scenerios,even when they are similar, are all going to be different.
You have to use common sense,be calm and restrained not allowing anger and emotion to distort a sound decision when implementing the use of a firearm.

Swampghost
May 1, 2008, 10:55 PM
In FL they have revised some of the laws, we can shoot to defend.

I have a couple of 9" fish filleting knives close at hand. With the windows up I would show the knife with the left hand and have the S&W 469 in the right. If BIG problems occur, I'm shooting straight through the door multiple times.

I frequently drive through parts of Palm Beach, Ft. Laud and Miami that are "less than desireable' sections and think about this often.

Triple8
May 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
I think I would keep my personnal protection device hidden. What the BG doesn't know could do him in... ;)

Ruthless4christ
May 1, 2008, 11:26 PM
Learn To Drive!!!!!!!

teejhot.40cal
May 1, 2008, 11:32 PM
First escape and evade. Then I would of put my window up and pulled my gun on the other side of the window. Then called 911.

HKFANATIC
May 2, 2008, 12:03 AM
The guy in the Toyota should have just gotten out and whipped his ass. That is how we do it in Texas.

Spade Cooley
May 2, 2008, 06:48 AM
Sometimes it might be the best option to not say anything, maintain your right to remain silent keeping your rights under the 5th amendment. If you take the stand in a trial you are obligated to tell the truth. Like Judge Judy says, it is easier to tell the truth. If it came down to you and the bad guy at trial, would you lie to save yourself?

Do you think the bad boys on trial out there always tell the truth on the stand? Do you think an Attorney might tweek the testimony a little and plant seeds in the mind of his defendant, make up a defense so to speak. If your a$$ is on the line in a questionable shooting, you better lawyer up.

No doubt the best option with road rage is to get away. I have seen people chased down and rammed because they gave someone the bird.

I see a lot of goofy opinions here and believe a lot of you are not aware of life on the street these days. Be careful!

huskylover
May 2, 2008, 09:02 AM
Yes,and the goofy opinions are coming from you Spade.If you need to lie to survive the aftermath of a shooting,then maybe you had no business pulling the trigger or you should keep your mouth shut until consulting an attorney.If your testimony would screw you,your Attorney is not going to put you on the stand.Your lie's would most likely be uncovered with today's technology and investigative techniques.There is a whole prison full of bad guy's that lied,to cover their a**.Ask them how it worked out for them.:rolleyes:

Spade Cooley
May 2, 2008, 09:36 AM
Having a plan, using common sense, and thinking before you act has kept me out of trouble all my life. I have survived shoot outs, caught robbery suspects and know more than most about life on the street. I know when it is time to flash the gun and pull the trigger. I know when it is time to keep the gun concealed because the Perp might stick it where the sun doesn't shine. I also know our judicial system is full of flaws. I've been there. Just think, if O J Simpson had told the truth? My advice might not be the best thing for everyone. After you get into a scrape you better tell them everything even if it hurts you.

Why do they take Police officers away from the scene after a shooting? Most Departments isolate the Officer and remove him from the scene in order for him/her to get his thoughts together. They do not want him blurting out something that might hurt him in front of witnesses.

Good luck!

zxcvbob
May 2, 2008, 10:07 AM
You're better off keeping your mouth shut and talking to a lawyer if you think the facts aren't going to help your case. Lying about it is not a good option, especially if you get caught.


I think you're better off keeping your mouth shut even if you think the facts are on your side.

Lying is not a good idea; hire a lawyer to lie for you, they are better at it. (that's a joke.)

Announcing the the whole world ahead of time that you intend to lie to the cops if you're ever involved in a shooting is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Waiting until you have your story straight is entirely different -- that's another reason to shut up until your attorney gets there, it gives you time to process what just happened and put the *facts* together into a coherent (but true) story. That's obviously what SC meant, isn't it? :rolleyes:

TexasSeaRay
May 2, 2008, 11:15 AM
Why do they take Police officers away from the scene after a shooting? Most Departments isolate the Officer and remove him from the scene in order for him/her to get his thoughts together. They do not want him blurting out something that might hurt him in front of witnesses.

Sorry, Spade, but that is just simply not true.

Jeff

vox rationis
May 2, 2008, 06:40 PM
A few years ago a belligerent parent attacked a referee officiating his son's game and killed him by landing hits in the manner I described. It is a vulnerable area of attack, and I would think that it is against the UFC rules to punch the neck, front, back or side (punches to the larynx for example can cause an acute edematous/injured upper airway, stridor and possible death).

The point though is that a violent attack against your head and neck while you are seated in your car can result in grievous injury and even death. So,
I still maintain that deciding to take punches to your head and neck so as to later retaliate legally is a really bad idea, but hey, it is your face/neck/other body part, so if you want to put your personal safety at risk in order to later sue, that's your prerogative.

I'd rather keep the window up, and focus on escaping. If the guy punches through my window and I can't evade and escape, then I'll defend myself, not let my attacker injure me with potentially maiming or even fatal blows.

huskylover
May 3, 2008, 09:36 AM
The chances of a bad guy landing fatal fist blows is very low.As someone mentioned look at the the sport of boxing,even look at martial arts competitions.Your fears are going to be a very weak argument with little to back them up.I'll tell you the last thing you want to do is shoot somebody for punching you.Your never going to convince the jury that you should have feared for your life.There are just not good enough statistics to back up your concern.Now if you have several attackers or you weigh 130 pounds and
this other guy is Mr.Universe you may be able to relay fear of serious bodily injury or death due to disparity of force.That is still no get out of jail free card though.You more than likely be going to trial for shooting an unarmed man even in disparity of force cases.

bobthewelder
May 3, 2008, 10:23 AM
This thread could go on forever throwing in any one of thousands of scenerios. Bottom line, Toyota guy should have tried to drive his way out of the situation. Way to many details missing to actually say who should have done what. Second, alot of the responses here are out there. First is to try to avoid any situation. If you see a man who walking down the sidewalk towards you, cross the street! If he crosses the street, cross it again! Look around for potential witnesses. Go to the door of a house and ring the doorbell and get off the porch. If he is still coming in your direction draw your weapon and yell at him to stop and drop the knife, once he enters your personal space you have to shoot of get diced up. See how many scenarios there are? But in my example I made it perfectly clear to anyone around that I was trying to avoid the situation at all costs. In any situation (usually the timeline isn't going to be as drawn out as mine) make it perfectly clear that you don't want any trouble, and that any bystanders here this. You can only draw your weapon if you feel your life or the life of someone else is in immediate danger. I don't have the energy or ambition to fight, so if I were approached by Big Bubba and he said he was going to kick my ass, I would back up and tell him I didn't want to fight as loud as I could, if he is still coming, run away. If you can't and he enters my personal space I would draw which would likely stop the fight. Now if Big Bubba were to say "I'm gooing to kill you", I would draw at that point. If you don't your risking your own weapon being used on you once Big Bubba pounds you to the ground. Simple answer, run if you can. If Big Bubba or Michael Jackson and Prince and all their buddies (multiple adversaries) are threatening you, I would draw as the odds of surviving multiple attackers is less that it is with just one. And the chances that the Jackson Gang has at least one weapon is more than probable. Use you car alarm to draw attention if your near your car, mine has a panick button on the back. Remember, You always have to look like the victim and must always try to talk your way out in case there are witnesses, and there maybe some that you don't notice. Also remember that if you shoot someone, your likely going to face a civil suit even if you beat the criminal suit and are cleared of the charges. Their family, or even them if they survive are going to sue you for shooting their scumbag who tried to kill you.

dipper
May 3, 2008, 10:29 AM
True words Bob--+1 on that!!

Dipper

cozidaddy
May 3, 2008, 10:43 AM
In FL they have revised some of the laws, we can shoot to defend.

I have a couple of 9" fish filleting knives close at hand. With the windows up I would show the knife with the left hand and have the S&W 469 in the right. If BIG problems occur, I'm shooting straight through the door multiple times.

I frequently drive through parts of Palm Beach, Ft. Laud and Miami that are "less than desireable' sections and think about this often.

http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm

This explains the extention of the Castle Doctrine to your vehicle

vox rationis
May 3, 2008, 11:24 AM
I wasn't making comments about shoot or no shoot. That is for everyone to decide as an individual based on whether or not you feel like your life is in danger and there is no other avenue but to defend yourself with deadly force.

I was just trying to bring to light the fact that taking vicious punches to certain parts of one's anatomy can be potentially maiming and life threatening and should absolutely not be taken lightly, or as part as one's strategy. You should defend against such hits period.

Note, since you guys have been making this assumption erroneously, "defend" does not automatically equate to "shoot", it can mean hand to hand defense, pepper spray, whatever.

I just think it is a bad idea to take those hits as part of one's strategy, to later sue, or something similar.

wyocarp
May 3, 2008, 11:34 AM
What's wrong with a little road rage? Many people need a waking up while they are driving. I frequently lay on my horn when people are making phone calls and texting instead of driving. It is my vehicle they might hit next time. Appropriate road rage is appropriate in my opinion when people are endangering others.

bobthewelder
May 3, 2008, 01:08 PM
First of all, honking isn't road rage as far as I'm concerned. But if you are perceived as provoking someone and it turns out ugly, your in trouble. I wonder how many instructors of CCW are actually qualified. Mine was a retired criminal law attorney. He also runs a firearms training facility. Doing what you are talking about is the exact opposite of how I was taught to act once you start carrying. If you drive the same roads at the same time everyday, to and from work and you act like an inraged idiot as you describe, don't you think that there are dozens, if not hundreds of other people that see you on that road everyday during their commute. Now let's escalate this, you and Mr. Text Messager pull over and he points a cell phone at you, but wait your ****** and it's 6:34 in the morning, still dark. You blow him away because you were already out of sorts about him being on the phone and actually pulling over. What you thought you saw wasn't a black cellphonedayplanneripodthingamajig, it was a weapon. You should consider leaving your guns at home locked up and even turning in your permit because people like me don't think people like you should have ever been issued a permit in the first place.

ghalleen
May 3, 2008, 02:39 PM
What's wrong with a little road rage? Many people need a waking up while they are driving. I frequently lay on my horn when people are making phone calls and texting instead of driving. It is my vehicle they might hit next time. Appropriate road rage is appropriate in my opinion when people are endangering others.

Everything is wrong with a little road rage. A responsible driver pays attention to his own driving and safety, and doesn't try to police others. If you see others driving unsafely, just call 911 and report them.