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View Full Version : Not impressed with North American Arms "No Holster In the Box" policy


jdnorris
April 26, 2008, 02:06 PM
I am not impressed with North American Arms policy to eliminate the included holster from new mini revolver boxes. As most know, the minis included a very functional holster as part of the original purchase up until a while back. This last weekend I bought a 3rd mini (dad visited from out of town and had to have my other 22mag over the holidays) and when I got home I was amazed that there was no holster in the new "hard" case. I know, I should have paid more attention and checked it all before leaving the store.

My opinion of North American Arms has gone from 1st to near worst for nickel-and-dimeing (to the tune of about $27-$37 with shipping) for something that historically has been included. To make matters even more distasteful, Georgia law requires a handgun be carried in a holster. My local dealers do not carry small enough aftermarkets or NAA stock holsters .... so I have a new "carry" gun that for at least a while I cannot carry. Bad business and I won't forget it.

FYI ..... I emailed NAA's owner Sandy Chisholm and he replied "Apparently, we can't please everybody, for which we're sorry."

Anyone else have any experiences with North American Arms / opinions good or bad?

David
Lawrenceville, GA

rugersp101
April 26, 2008, 02:50 PM
No experience with them , but his reply was very unprofessional and flippant. What a bunch of arrogance from a company who is being pointed out for shortchanging repeat customers! I would never buy from them again.

88cupfan
April 26, 2008, 03:05 PM
Business people have to make hard decisions to keep their companies profitable. If you dont like it, take the gun back and buy something else. Or call the dude back and tell him that if he doesnt send you a free holster for your 3rd purchase that you will return the gun. With all variety of guns available today, it doesnt seem to me that it would be hard to find something else that you would like. Shoot, you could even find you a real gun like a S&W.

Its so obvious to people who have actually owned their own business to tell the people who havent because they have no clue that a business has to make a profit in order to be viable. People on this forum complain all the time about prices of firearms going up but fail to realize that the costs to make them, distribute them and market them has gone up as well. In about 2 years this country's currency will hit hyperinflation and collaps. I told people 4 years ago to buy gold and they laughed at me. Its gone up 300% since then.

WINSTON THE WOLF
April 26, 2008, 03:32 PM
I agree with 88cupfan, Tell the owner Sandy Chisholm your sorry to , That North American Arms has lost a long time customer. Then see what he sayes:D

88cupfan, I heard an economist say to invest in Gold ,Silver and copper jacketed lead:rolleyes:

88cupfan
April 26, 2008, 04:38 PM
Thats right! you'll need some gold, silver, lead, a fire place, a fishin hole and lots of canned food. This is all just before the cost of a loaf of bread doubles every day for a month. You just cant keep printing money hand over fist and get away with it forever. And given the fact that the USA has lost so many productive assets (manufacturing leaving the USA), the only thing the Fed can do to keep our spoiled consumer driven economy from collapsing tomorrow, is to PRINT MORE MONEY! There is noone to bail out the Fed and now they have taken on all the risk. Hold on to your Hats!

DPris
April 26, 2008, 05:25 PM
I don't recall a holster being included with either of the two NAA .22s I own.
When did they do that, and when did they stop doing it?
I've also borrowed several of their guns over the years, they were shipped with the normal package that'd be with them for retail sale, and I don't recall holsters coming with those, either.
Denis

jdnorris
April 26, 2008, 06:18 PM
88 ...... I take a re-stocking hit if I take it back, so it's not really a zero loss situation. I too own a business, and repeat customers usually get my best treatment and deals. I paid retail for this gun (about 30% more than the previous two) and got less. Now I get to add about 25% more to the purchase to get it up to snuff.

Winston ..... he doesn't seem to be the kind of guy that cares.

Denis ...... I'm not sure when it stopped. Both the 22 mag 1&5/8 and 22 mag 1&1/8 that I bought previously came in a cardboard box. They now come in a thin plastic "lockable" (I use lockable lightly) box with a bunch of the usual paperwork / foam.

I know one thing for sure ..... I'm done with North American Arms.

PS ...... on the subject of Ben Bernanke's printing press addiction ..... God help us all.

David

CANIS
April 26, 2008, 06:20 PM
They are a good company. In case you have not noticed, raw material costs continue to increase. The price of a mini revolver has stayed fairly level over the past many years. Little "extras" cost the company plenty.

They make a quality gun. They have good service. Sandy is right, you can't satisfy everybody.

jdnorris
April 26, 2008, 06:30 PM
CANIS,

Upon following a link to the owners homepage I now see that he's really hurting for pennies .............

http://sandychisholm.com/

He lists his:

Country Club
Mexico Vacation Home
Ritz Carlton -St. Thomas
Private Schools

I now see the error of my ways and apologize for questioning his good natured attempt at keeping his struggling business solvent. Those extras might have cost him a perk, maybe 2 ........ a travesty. The cheapness definitely has cost him a customer.

David

And CANIS, my sarcasm is directed at the owner, not you:)

Bill DeShivs
April 26, 2008, 06:46 PM
So, Mr. Chisholm simply has too much? Don't you wish you owned NAA?
I'll bet you would give everyone free guns!

jdnorris
April 26, 2008, 07:18 PM
You got me. I'd buy the company and give them all to you. :rolleyes: :p

88cupfan
April 26, 2008, 07:59 PM
My experience in life has taught me not to take anything for granted.Especially when putting my cash down for something. I never buy anything without a thorough inspection. My son just picked up a tux for prom, brought it home and discovered a spot of paint the size of a dime on the pants. His immediate words after he showed me were, "I know dad. I should have inspected it before I took it from the store."

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who learn by mistakes and those who learn by others mistakes.

In consolation just let me say that this world today is far more complicated than God ever intended it to be. Hold fast! The good days are still ahead for those who place there trust in Him.

rantingredneck
April 26, 2008, 08:07 PM
Both the 22 mag 1&5/8 and 22 mag 1&1/8 that I bought previously came in a cardboard box. They now come in a thin plastic "lockable" (I use lockable lightly) box with a bunch of the usual paperwork / foam.

I expect that is the root of his "you can't please everyone" comment. Before I'm sure he got questions as to why other companies shipped their guns in hardside plastic cases and his came in cardboard boxes.

My first NAA Guardian came with the cardboard box and a desantis gunrug holster.

The second one I bought came in the hardside foam padded case.

Really I could care less either way.

Magnum Wheel Man
April 26, 2008, 08:46 PM
hmmm... mine never came with a holster... course... it came in a fancier wood box, & with a couple of chips, & a little more than the normal paperwork ( a deck of cards )

mines a "snake eyes" edition, I shoot it, carry it for a poker good luck charm, & I wouldn't trade it for anything even close

Bill Siegle
April 26, 2008, 11:27 PM
Only NAA I ever got with a holster was one of their little 32 autos that had the little belt pouch holster with it. Never heard of em including holsters before that and I have owned several. I recently bought a Pug and no holster was included. Smith and Ruger don't include them so I don't expect it from others unless it is a promotion of some sort. As to NAA being cheapskates, I dought that. If you aren't already aware, steel of all types has risen drastically and will be almost doubling across the board very soon. Anyone manufacturing almost anything is gonna feel it and I don't think many companies will simply absorb the costs. Things are gonna get tight all over I suspect the smart ones are making changes right now to help their companies stay viable in a more expensive world. I for one always check everything before the final buying of a gun. Been burnt before and learned from it.

Crosshair
April 27, 2008, 12:28 AM
I sewed a pocket holster for my Bond Arms Derringer out of $.50 worth of fabric and some thread I had left over from repairing my winter coat. Not pretty, but keeps the gun in the correct position. I could probably make one for an NAA if I can remember where I put the silly thing. (Damm thing is so small. No it isn't loaded. It's somewhere in my room.):o

SilentHitz
April 27, 2008, 07:38 AM
I'm not familiar with what years they offered holsters for their Mini-revolvers, because I bought one used from a friend about 10 years ago. While I was in the hospital, my brother borrowed it because his wife wanted a small purse gun.

Anyways, the gun broke (pawl I think) and he sent the gun back for repairs. It was returned with only 3 original parts, frame barrel and cylinder...all other parts had been replaced. He brought the invoice to show me in the hospital, and I admit I was shocked!

Total cost: was $0.00 So my experience was much different than most here. That was about 5 years ago, so from what most here are saying, their customer service must have gone downhill pretty bad. Sad to hear they have stopped standing behind their products as they once did.:(

lamarr
April 27, 2008, 08:26 AM
"Apparently, we can't please everybody, for which we're sorry."

I'll bet the folks complaining about the holster are the same ones who hated the cardboard boxes. So you wanted the company to pay for a hard case and holster? :barf:

Sandy has realized the retail truism: "Theres one in every crowd."

DPris
April 27, 2008, 12:23 PM
I'm having a hard time understanding how this lack of holster thing is either a deal-killer or any kind of indicator that the company "has stopped standing behind their products".

JD,
Over several years, I've borrowed probably ten of their guns for testing. Each time, as far as I know, each gun shipped in the normal packaging & with the normal inclusions that would have gone out to a dealer.
I can recall none that came with a holster included. When I wanted to use a holster for photos, I asked for one separately. I'm not sure "most know" that at some point NAA routinely included them.
While I can understand the aggravation involved in Georgia requiring one, it seems to me that if you think an NAA has enough intrinsic value to meet your defensive needs, then you're hurting yourself far more than you're hurting NAA in not buying another product from them solely because they didn't give you a free $5 piece of leather with it. :)
You may not like Chisholm's response, but he might not have liked your email.

Silent,
As far as not standing behind their products goes, if you were to tell me they'd refused to service your gun, then I think you'd have grounds to say that. Not including a holster? No grounds. :)

Denis

hpg
April 27, 2008, 01:56 PM
Nothing North American Arms makes impresses me............hpg

SilentHitz
April 27, 2008, 03:04 PM
Silent,
As far as not standing behind their products goes, if you were to tell me they'd refused to service your gun, then I think you'd have grounds to say that. Not including a holster? No grounds.
Got my post all wrong bro'. I could care less about the holster. My point was that I received great service from them. How many folks can say they sent in a used revolver for repair, and got almost ALL the parts replaced for free?

Hell, with service like that, I'm not so cheap I won't go buy my own holster.:)
My comment about customer service going down was based on others saying they were getting little or no response from them. I don't agree, as I haven't had dealings with them recently, and don't know if service has changed.

My experience with NAA has been nothing but good.:cool:

DPris
April 27, 2008, 03:16 PM
Silent,
If I misunderstood your post, I apologise. Just looked like you were saying their customer service decline & "not standing behind their products" was based solely on the holster issue. :)
I didn't see any other comments relative to standing behind their products. Yours very much indicated they do.
JD's just indicated he & the company president disagreed over a holster being included or not. :)

Denis

SilentHitz
April 27, 2008, 03:29 PM
No problem Denis, probably just wasn't clear enough on my 1st post. I have a 10 year old .22 magnum mini that looks ( and works) like a new pistol, and all it cost me was the price of shipping it to them! Made me a happy camper. :D

sawrecker
April 27, 2008, 04:29 PM
I took my mini apart to see how it worked and well, it didn't work after that, so I called them, no problem they said, I sent it back to them, UPS, had it back in 2 weeks, and it was smoother than ever, like they actually spent some quality time on it.
I had the holster,when I bought my first one, like in 1986, i paid 125 for it, you can buy them now for 175, so if they only raised the price 50 buck in the last 22 years, and saved money by not putting in the suede holster that soaked up sweat, I think they are doing a good job. I cut the top off a wore out pair of slip on wolverine's boots folded it close to the gun punched holes in it and spiderwire sewed it together, works great.

Joe the Redneck
April 27, 2008, 07:49 PM
Mine did not come with a holster. It came with a zippered gun run.

JTR

RsqVet
April 27, 2008, 09:52 PM
Go good folks, much ado about nothing.... it's not like they are out selling auto's without a magazine and then charging you for that... an essential part of the gun....

The gun use to have one package and a holster now it does not and you are out a whole 25 bucks to buy what you want..... and all of this over an acessory I'd bet a fair number of folks never used or wanted anyway....

I mean gosh I have boxes out in the garage of glock cleaning rods, plasitc cases and other misc parts / acessories given away with guns I have purchased and which I have no use for.

Frankly I have always been impressed that NAA offers decently made guns at such reasonable prices....

And what is the prez of the company supposed to do? beg your forgivness and send you free product so you don't rant online? You bought it, you ASSUMED and now you are angry? Get real man

jdnorris
April 29, 2008, 12:15 AM
RsqVet,

I think I made it perfectly clear that I failed to check or verify that what I expected to be there was actually there before leaving the store. That fault rests 100% on my shoulders.

My comments, of which I have an inalienable right to express (partly thanks to our guns ;) ) is that nickel-and-dimeing, coupled with smart a$$ replies from the person in charge = no more purchases from me.

After doing some more digging in my records, I determined that the new 22mag cost about 50% more than my first and is in need of a $35+ expenditure to make it equal to the first. Sickening. :barf:

Take my info, rant, spitting fit, etc any way you like. I was ripped off and it'll be a -459.67 degree Fahrenheit day in Hades before I'll buy another product (gun or holster) from that flippant mouthed North American Arms owner. :mad:

I have now ordered 2 different holsters from independent shops for the gun. I couldn't tell which would be best by looking at then on the internet, and most could agree nothing works/acts like a 3"X3" online picture looks when you actually get it in your hands.

David
Lawrenceville, GA

DPris
April 29, 2008, 01:10 AM
David,
If you choose not to buy anything else from NAA, that's your business, but you were not ripped off.
Prices change, and packages change.
Even if NAA ever did include a holster, that in no way means they are irrevocably bound to include one with every purchase until the end of time.
You got one or two in the past, this time you didn't.
You didn't get ripped, and the company has not short-changed anybody.

Years ago, I used to get a cute little screwdriver with every adjustable-sighted Smith & Wesson I bought. They stopped that quite a while back, and prices have gone up dramatically on current guns.
Everybody who buys a new Smith at higher prices and doesn't get a 50-cent screwdriver today is getting ripped by S&W?
Not there, and not in your case, either. It's just the changing times.
Buy your guns and your holsters elsewhere, you won't be hurting anybody's feelings at NAA.
You have a right to your opinion, and to spend your money where you wish, but claiming the company somehow cheated you is just not realistic.
Denis

SimpleIsGood229
April 29, 2008, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by 88cupfan:
In consolation just let me say that this world today is far more complicated than God ever intended it to be.
I just wanted to chime in to say that, sadly, 88 is exactly right.

Alright, carry on. :)

Double Naught Spy
April 29, 2008, 06:29 AM
+1 DPris

jdnorris, since...
I think I made it perfectly clear that I failed to check or verify that what I expected to be there was actually there before leaving the store. That fault rests 100% on my shoulders.

then you were not ripped off. It sounds like you were just a careless consumer who wants to complain at somebody about your mistake and when the company didn't coddle you, you starting posting your complaints here.

What did you expect them to say to you? Did you want them to say they were sorry that you were a poor consumer and chose a poor dealer? Are you also mad at every other manufacturer that doesn't include a holster with their gun?

As for the cost issue,
After doing some more digging in my records, I determined that the new 22mag cost about 50% more than my first and is in need of a $35+ expenditure to make it equal to the first. Sickening.
you are the consumer who purchased the gun. If you were worried about cost relative to earlier purchases, you should have not purchased again.

This is once again, an issue of you not being a good consumer when it comes to making the purchase. The fault isn't with NAA if you made a purchase you did not have to make and you spent more money than you wanted to spend.

Richard b
April 30, 2008, 09:57 AM
+1 dpris
It appears this issue has been solved. The time one of my minis needed repairs, it was done smoothly and properly.

Disclaimer: I'm a fan of NAA products; but receive no remuneration for it.

jdnorris
May 2, 2008, 11:17 PM
Double Naught Spy,

My first post declared that I was 100% at fault for assuming that a holster was included. I am however not at fault for North American Arms holsters being rarer than 3ft tall green men in Georgia.

I finally found a holster locally and had it re-sewn (small change) by a shoe/boot repair store in my town. I had either visited or called every North American Arms dealer within 50 miles of my home with no luck in finding one. North American Arms removed the holster from the kit, and North American Arms dealers don't carry them. Bad business. North American Arms is cheap, and I'm calling then so. :p :barf:

David

Double Naught Spy
May 3, 2008, 06:37 AM
So you joined TFL and made your first posts to tell us how unhappy you were about your lack of consumer prowess and complain how nobody coddled you to make it right. Got it.

So holsters are rare where you are? Big deal. Buy them on the internet or out of catalogs like many folks. You aren't the only one who isn't surrounded by the parts and accessories of products you like.

DPris
May 3, 2008, 12:56 PM
JD,
Your argument that NAA is "cheap" over this holster not being included issue is absurd.
I've had to look around the country (in one way or another) for leather to fit several of my guns that wasn't stocked regularly locally.
Those little NAA products are simply not high-volume sellers, and most dealers don't like to retain inventory that doesn't move in the way of accessories. It ties up both capital & display space, and there might be a whole three-dollar profit margin for a stocking dealer on a typical NAA holster.
With costs rising everywhere, NAA choosing to not include a holster is not cheap, it's just a matter of business.

Either the NAA gun you bought fills a need & a niche for you, or it's a toy. If it fills a need, you suck up your disappointment & do what it takes to support that gun and that need, and you move on. If it's a toy, then by all means let your grief overwhelm you and find something else to play with.

I own two NAA revolvers & both were carried at various points on the job when I was still a working man. I had to look around for holsters for them before I could do so. No big deal, I waited till I found what I needed, like every other gun & holster combination I've ever bought.

Sales packages change. No company owes you the same exact combination of items that were included in ANY purchase you made with them from inception to eternity. Every business has the right to change the contents of a sales package as they deem necessary.

Things like the cleaning rod & screwdriver that used to come standard with Smiths were dropped long ago because a huge number of buyers (me included) never used them, and S&W simply decided to cut costs. There were some who thought it was a shame those accessories were no longer included, but got over it in the greater scheme of things. Managing costs is an everyday business reality in any operation that makes or sells to stay in business.

Your posts are the equivalent of saying "I bought a Smith revolver 15 years ago & it came with a screwdriver. I bought one last week & it didn't. I emailed the company president and he said 'We can't please everybody', which I take as a flippant lack of concern for customers, and I had to go buy a screwdriver to adjust my sights with before I could carry my new gun. On top of which, they had the gall to RAISE PRICES in the past 15 years!!! If this is the way this CHEAP company operates, I'm not buying any more of their products!"

Nuisance for you? Apparently a huge one. Cheap company? Not hardly.
NAA is a relatively small outfit, I've been to their plant. You will not find a wide range of accessories to fit their guns at any gunshop, sales don't justify using the limited space a dealer has in place of items that do move.
When you buy a low-volume fringe gun, you have to expect a little more effort in locating support gear for it.

I can't find leather locally for my Bond or ADC derringers, have to order from the makers or go aftermarket special order. They could include leather with each gun, but they'd have to raise unit pricing to cover it. The holster they include might not be the type I want, and I'd still have to buy another one. People already gripe over "high" prices of today's guns.

This is nothing more than NAA making a cost/benefit decision to drop the included holster (for however long a period of time they were doing it) to hold costs down. In no way does that make the company "cheap".

You could have ordered direct from NAA immediately after you discovered the lack of a holster in the box & had a holster to fit your gun in 10 days or less, without all the time & hassle involved in chasing around locally.

Denis

SilentHitz
May 3, 2008, 02:35 PM
If you want one that bad...make it, it's not that hard, and the leather to make one that small won't be expensive. You can make it for however you want to carry too, belt, boot, ankle, pocket. Easy to get started...http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/index.asp

RsqVet
May 5, 2008, 04:04 PM
I still really want to know how the owner's remarks we flippant or offensive?

I mean what is the guy supposed to say?

IQ45
May 17, 2008, 08:46 PM
I purchased the .22mag 1-5/8 new in 1989 and it came with both the holster and the zippered rug. Dad wanted the .22LR in the short barrel in 2000 and it came the same way. Both in cardboard boxes, which were ok.

Not sure, but believe the owner of NAA could have used a little more diplomacy in his response...canned verbiage: "we regret with rising costs tough decisions had to be made...how about a discount on one from us"
Just my 2c
IQ45