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Venison_Jerkey32
April 25, 2008, 11:57 AM
I was watching the tv show DEA on spike and almost all of those guys use m4 type weapons for house clearing. At first I started thinking "I might rather have a henry carbine in 44mag" for the stopping power and the throwback factor, but then I started to seriously think that if I were clearing a house in an urban environment I might look into a 50 beowulf upper or something similar.

Anyone with experience or any other arm chair quarterbacks want to chime in: If you were using an ar15 platform and changing uppers/ammo wasn't a problem, would you stick with the 556 or do something different?

David Armstrong
April 25, 2008, 12:19 PM
5.56 was and still is fine by me.

buzz_knox
April 25, 2008, 03:12 PM
5.56mm is probably one of the best choices out there. The short range nature of most "indoor social encounters" takes away a primary objection to 5.56 in carbines, namely that the round is dependent on velocity in order to fragment and get its optimum wounding effect. At the same time, the average 5.56 round penetrates building supplies less than most other rounds, including handgun rounds. Combine those two factors with the AR carbine's ease of use and it's ability to put accurate and sustained fire on the target and you see why LEOs and the military have gone to it for the CQB mission.

By the way, what is "throwback factor"?

Venison_Jerkey32
April 25, 2008, 03:29 PM
When a baseball/basketball team wears jerseys from the past, they're called "throwback jerseys."

Basically, I would love to see one of the agents on the TV show bust in with a lever action rifle instead of kneepads, face mask, quad rail, and other tatical goodies.

Although I suspect there's more to being a dea agent than image.

.351winchester
April 25, 2008, 03:44 PM
that is a good show, watching it every week.

i'd use one or the .50/.45 AR's as a replacement for a shotgun slug. I think it would be best in LE as an anti-vehicle/boat round. And a good brush gun for deer or hogs. The ballistics range on those from comparible to supermag revolver rounds, to 12 Ga. slug, to .45/70. All heavy hitters, "thumpers". They would certainly work indoors and have likely unsurvivable one shot stopping power, but I'd have to learn more about penetration. .499 LW (Coast Guard's pick) is available in a frangible.

A 6.5/6.8 offers the most versatility (room combat to 600 yd. countersniping)
but select .223 rounds might be the best bet in terms of lack of overpenetration.

Before the show I thought the DEA were still hanging with their Colt subs. I'm sure CLET still have the suppressed ones.

hoytinak
April 25, 2008, 03:46 PM
My M4 5.56 has always worked for me. Even if I could, I don't think I'd change it.

Doyle
April 25, 2008, 04:06 PM
When I first saw this thread, I thought it said Room clearing with big UDDERS. Now, I'm disappointed.

Erik
April 26, 2008, 01:04 PM
For law enforcement operations: If the various 5.56 carbines, 9mm submachine guns, and 12 gauge shotguns available won't lend themselves to operational success I do not see how a caliber upgrade will. Flash, chemical, or smoke munitions, on the other hand, may be in order.

nemoaz
April 26, 2008, 04:51 PM
If anything, the officers would probably want a super short barrel (assuming it is reliable- not all are) over a larger caliber. A suprressed pistol caliber carbine/smg is the choice of some. 5.56 when fired inside can be quite disorienting.

The fact that no LEO special ops/swat are demanding 44 magnums or 50 beowulf instread of 5.56 also goes back to the fact that guys who actually use the 5.56 have a lot more faith in it than the internet commandos do. Afghans are in fact quite afraid of what they call the "magic bullets" that come from ARs and AK74s.

Although I suspect there's more to being a dea agent than image.Violence of action, fast accurate counter-fire, and body armor are what keeps them alive. The deck is already stacked against them (bad guys have defenses, know the building, no rules of engagement, etc). They don't need the additional disadvantage of a lever action rifle.

patrol
April 26, 2008, 04:58 PM
M4's are good for house work. A Henry carbine or any other lever action compared to a semiauto 30 rounder for fast action such as running or fast moving into an unknown area? Nah..I'll take the M4..also the 223 will defeat body armour and a 44magnum handgun caliber probably will not even if fired from a rifle. It be a dandy brush gun though in the field for bobcats..and cyotes..

TripIII
April 29, 2008, 09:28 PM
When I first saw this thread, I thought it said Room clearing with big UDDERS. Now, I'm disappointed.


Now that's funny right there!!!

guntotin_fool
April 30, 2008, 12:44 AM
They should toss the M4's and use shotguns. better weight on target, less likely hood of loose projectiles sailing down the street if they fire near a window. Despite years of trying, the M4 will not equal a 12 gauge in stopping a fight right now.

Why have the marines gone back to using shotguns as the lead in house sweep's (verified by two local boys just home from the sandbox) because the bad guys can take 4 or 5 hits with the 5.56 at close range and still be functional. One or two shot gun rounds and the fight is over.

My son's best friend just welcomed his brother home a month ago after 17 months in Iraq. He calls the M16/M4 platform "bush league" in its ability to deal with bad guy with an attitude. He had a picture of one guy he shot 9 times at less than 50 yards who was still alive until someone on an armored vehicle ran two 7.62's thru him, Was that guy going to die? more than likely, but not until he had killed some more.

The 5.56 is an ineffective deer cartridge on most larger deer. Many states still ban it because of poor performance on a 150 pound deer. Why does it magically become a super killer when fired from a AR/M platform?

Venison_Jerkey32
April 30, 2008, 12:54 AM
This thread wasn't intended to be a 5.55/m16 bashing thread. Additionally this thread had nothing to do with war zone battles. This thread is specifically for discussing alternate uppers when clearing urban houses like those seen on DEA.

Thanks

tc556guy
April 30, 2008, 01:56 AM
Why have the marines gone back to using shotguns as the lead in house sweep's (verified by two local boys just home from the sandbox) because the bad guys can take 4 or 5 hits with the 5.56 at close range and still be functional. One or two shot gun rounds and the fight is over.

My son's best friend just welcomed his brother home a month ago after 17 months in Iraq. He calls the M16/M4 platform "bush league" in its ability to deal with bad guy with an attitude. He had a picture of one guy he shot 9 times at less than 50 yards who was still alive until someone on an armored vehicle ran two 7.62's thru him, Was that guy going to die? more than likely, but not until he had killed some more.

Two issues at play here: theres an intimidation factor at work in the ME when it comes to using a shottie. Everyone in the ME has a FA AK, it seems. Not so the shottie.
Secondly, military personnel are limited as to what ammo they can use. Not so the LE or civilian market in the USA. There are in fact some very good 5.56 commercial rounds available.

Everyones entitled to their opinion though.

David Armstrong
April 30, 2008, 09:54 AM
The 5.56 is an ineffective deer cartridge on most larger deer. Many states still ban it because of poor performance on a 150 pound deer. Why does it magically become a super killer when fired from a AR/M platform?
The 30/06 and the .308 can be considered ineffective on most large deer, at least as it relates to instant incapacitation, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Contrary to the anecdotes, it seems every controlled study has shown the 5.56 to be as effective as the 7.62 at stopping people within the normal combat ranges.

Scattergun Bob
April 30, 2008, 11:28 PM
Hi David,

I usually sit dutifully and read you posts with attention, TOO many years of sitting in classrooms listening to CJ professors.

Did you really say;
"The 30/06 and the .308 can be considered ineffective on most large deer, at least as it relates to instant incapacitation."

I must disagree strongly with this statement in regard to medium size game. Unless your part of the world grows them bigger, here in northeastern Washington and northern Idaho the 30-06 with 165 and 180 grain modern hunting bullets is a true knockdown killer for both Whitetail and Mule Deer. Energy, penetration, weight retention, and expansion is ideal for this size game. I would wager with 220 grain Remington core-lock roundnose solids the 30-06 would perform very well on all large game in the lower 48. At long range magnum calibers will do better.

I don't think this is really at the heart of this thread, just wanted to clear the air.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Desert01
May 1, 2008, 08:44 AM
"The 30/06 and the .308 can be considered ineffective on most large deer, at least as it relates to instant incapacitation."
Scattergun Bob,

I have to support Dave in his logic. A gut shot deer with a .300 WM is not going to stop right there, hence the comment, "at least as it relates to instant incapacitation."

A well placed shot with a 5.56mm will do the job. Since we have all heard the hunting stories of the deer shot while running quartering away from the shooter higher power ammo becomes a requirement in the mind of the nations DEC's. Bad shoot, might have to go through 24-36" of deer and bone before getting to a vital area. Thus using DEC regulations to justify a position on a defensive/offensive round is not solid logic.

Complaint in the net and some of the press are full of how 5.56mm won't get the job done. Yet end users in LE and the Military are largely satisfied with the round.

Here are two points that were in a article published in Infantry Magazine:

While projectile design can make a good hit more effective, a hit to a critical area is still required; this fact is borne out by the Medal of Honor citations of numerous American Soldiers who continued to fight despite being hit by German 7.92mm, Japanese 6.5mm and 7.7mm, or Chinese or Vietnamese 7.62mm rounds. A more realistic mantra might be "One well-placed shot, one-kill."

.......................
2. Shot placement trumps all other variables; expectation management is key. Though this should produce a "well, duh!" response from the experienced warfighter, it cannot be emphasized enough. We try hard to inculcate a "one-shot, one-kill" mentality into Soldiers.

Small caliber lethality: 5.56MM performance in close quarters battle. (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-158733704.html)

Scattergun Bob
May 1, 2008, 09:47 AM
Hi,

First, you my support Dave and his logic, he has one of the best minds on this forum. Saying that, he is painting this point with too large a brush, he in the past has criticized me for too general a stroke. And I am sure I will take his fire for saying so.

To your point you are comparing apples to oranges.

"gut shot deer with a .300 WM is not going to stop right there" vrs "A well placed shot with a 5.56mm will do the job"

These two statements are not within the same field of play. So what happens with a well placed shot from a 300 WinMag?

I simply do not like the deer stopping vrs man stopping thing. The targets are different completely and you folks need to find a better analogy.

As I said in my previous post, this is not part of the center issue of this thread. We can start another on 30-06 and energy in the rifle forum.

As far as 5.56 vrs anything, it is not my field, carried the M14, shot the M-16 have no problem with either. 12 gauge vrs 5.56, I'd have a lot to say!

Desert01
May 1, 2008, 10:35 AM
I simply do not like the deer stopping vrs man stopping thing. The targets are different completely and you folks need to find a better analogy.


We are in agreement then I think. I don't like the arguement either. Dave responded to a hunting/DEC based protest of 5.56mm. A well placed shot from just about anything will do the job. I personal hunt with a Remington 788 carbine in 7-08 because the rifle/round combination is the right combination of several factors for ME hunting.

I also have a.300WM, but not for hunting. I have no doubt that it will perform has well as my 7-08, most likely better if I were to take marginal shots. I'm a BAD hunter though, I have never needed more then one shot to take a deer, or had to track one after shooting it. Going to a .300 WM wouldn't change that. Of course that is because I have waited for up to an hour to get a good shot and let more then one deer walk because I didn't have the shot I wanted. If I can't place the bullet were I need it I don't shoot period. Cjhanging caliber isn't going to change that.

With that in mind hunting is always a bad analogy for defensive use of anything.

FYI I love my shotguns, they are my preferance for civilans and most LEO situations. But it is not always the right tool for the job. Sometimes you need 5.56mm, some times 12ga. and some times you need the .300 WM. Others the 9mm Kahr or .38 Colt Agent is just the ticket.

David Armstrong
May 2, 2008, 09:47 AM
I must disagree strongly with this statement in regard to medium size game. Unless your part of the world grows them bigger, here in northeastern Washington and northern Idaho the 30-06 with 165 and 180 grain modern hunting bullets is a true knockdown killer for both Whitetail and Mule Deer.
I think others have done a fairly good job of clarifying my point, which in retrospect could have been much clearer. First, however, our experiences do apparently differ significantly, and I think mine is more in line with common literature, when it comes to "knockdown power." The literature is rife with stories of having to track deer hundreds of yards following good hits with .308and 30-06 rounds, among others. Therefore, to argue that the 5.56 is ineffective on deer is somewhat irrelevant, as the larger calibers are also ineffective at least as it relates to instant incapacitation . The effectiveness appears to be far more related to placement of the round and distance of the shot as opposed to the size of the round. I do agree with you that the 30-06/.308 is a better killer across a broader range (I'm a 30-06 fan myself) but few kills on deer are instantaneous. Thus the entire "5.56 is bad because it isn't used for deer" argument seems not only questionable, but also irrelevant. As you put it:

"I simply do not like the deer stopping vrs man stopping thing. The targets are different completely and you folks need to find a better analogy."

That was the main point I was trying for, and apparently missed it a bit. Thanks for catching it.

Saying that, he is painting this point with too large a brush, he in the past has criticized me for too general a stroke. And I am sure I will take his fire for saying so.
No fire here. When a mea culpa is in order I'm not to proud to recognize it.

Doggieman
May 2, 2008, 06:06 PM
shotgun shotgun.. no rifles for house clearing!

tplumeri
May 2, 2008, 06:16 PM
I have to go with a 9mm Colt Sporter.
works well clearing MY house (the wife always leaves when i bring it out);)

ceetee
May 7, 2008, 01:18 PM
When I first saw this thread, I thought it said Room clearing with big UDDERS. Now, I'm disappointed.

That's a different show... "Bounty Girls: Miami" (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/blog/1640000164/post/1210012921.html)