Massad says...

[NWdude83]

I have a Massad Ayoob video from the 90's called Shoot to Live. In it he says that a .20ga is just as good as a .12ga shotgun. "Almost as deadly and has less recoil" What are your thoughts on this?

[RsqVet]

I'll pass.

If one has recoil advershion I would first go from pump to semi before I went to a 20, my 12 ga 11-87 is dead on relaible with everything but the lightest clay loads and is very soft to shoot.

[FL-Flinter]

I tended to disagree with Ayoob sometimes but not on this one except for the "almost" part of that statement. After many years of load building and testing, the fact remains clear that once you exceed the payload limit of the bore, performance drops quickly and considerably.

All that counts is how many pellets connect with the target and of those that connect, are they capable of producing terminal results. Forget about pellet count and shot payload weight in the shell. I don't care if you're throwing 5 ounces of shot with 800 pellets to the ounce because if only three pellets are hitting the target it's a usless load just the same as if the pellets hitting don't have enough retained energy to produce terminal effects, it's a useless load. You cannot test a wing-shooting load by printing a pattern on a stationary target yet not one of the ammunition companies feeding the magnumitis craze prints patterns on anything but a well anchored pattern board....ever wonder why?

Think about this... if you're launching a load of #6 shot with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps, the pellets have a given amount of air drag resulting in down-range velocity & energy losses. It does not matter if the pellets are launched from a 32 gauge or a 2 gauge bore, if they are coming out of the muzzle at the same velocity, there is no difference in the amount of velocity and energy they have at 30 or 40 yards.

What you need to be concerned with is your point-of-impact pattern quality and if the load is producing consistently reliable patterns with pellets large enough to retain the amount of energy required for the game being hunted.

Magnumitis doesn't apply to wing shooting.

[wjkuleck]

Hmm...let's see. a .12 gauge shotgun (per the very convenient formula at Bernard R. Miller's web site (http://www.geocities.com/bernard_r_miller/shotgungauge.htm)) would have a bore size of 3.39 inches. A .20 gauge bore would be only 2.9 inches. I'd go with the .12, though I'd probably need a wheeled carriage with recuperator and a trailer hitch ;) .

Regards,

Walt

[5Wire]

When I tried the formula, it came out 12 ga = 0.7296473987339904 inches. There is no decimal in the gauge nomenclature

[Slopemeno]

Keep in mind when he said that, low-recoil 12 gauge buck loads hadnt come out yet. I'd prefer to have the 12 gauge and the option of the more powerful 00 ammo, myself.

I have seen and shot a 20 gauge 1100 that was incredibly fast and light recoiling, though.

[45Dave]

Flinter, thanks just wanted to go a +1 for ya. It is amazing how many times I have stated about the same thing when non shotgun shooters want to argue what hits harder, 12 or 20. If both are shooting one ounce loads, say AA handicap, both will have the same or almost identical velocity and both will have amost idential impact at combat distance.
A 20 gauge kills rabbits just as dead as a 12, the 12 just may have more pellets if you are slinging a heaver load. 20's as a general overall tend to handle a bit quicker and you can pick up more in your hand or pocket plus the guns often weight less than similar 12's.
I wonder why no one seems to want to know if a 16 gauge would be a great self defense gage.

[freakshow10mm]

The only difference between the gauges is payload. Every gauge from the .410 bore to the 10 gauge will launch its payload between 1200-1400fps. The bigger the gauge, the heavier the shot charge/slug. That's it.

I use a 20ga for everything and it is plenty for the job.

[buzz_knox]

Louis Awerbuck says pretty much the same thing. For defensive purposes, he rates a 20 ga right up there with a 12 ga.

[Scattergun Bob]

I take it by the title of the video that you are concerned with personal protection and not hunting.

Mas also has a wonderful book by the Title - Stressfire II "advanced combat shotgun" in it he spends a bit more time about the term "almost as deadly". Louis Awerbuck suggests 20 ga as an option under certin conditions.

At the normal "in the house" distances I say 10, 12, 16, 20 all work well. As we move outside and try to extend the shotguns range (it's 2nd weakness), is when gauge or the use of speciality shells come into play.

Hope this helps

Good Luck & Be Safe

[Hawg Haggen]

I've seen plenty of 20's that kicked harder than 12's. It all depends on how well the gun fits you. I've got a 12 gauge SXS that kicks the snot out of me but my daughter routinely fires both barrels at once with no recoil pad.

[NWdude83]

Well I have a 12ga which isn't really for home defense, its more a a range toy. This post is more to help my friend out. He is considering a shotgun for his first gun, and he wants something mostly for home defense.

[.351winchester]

I totally am in favor of the 20 as a defense or combat SG ctg. Only reason I've used 12s is better variety of guns and ammo. Think about it, how the best tactical 12 gauge ammo is loaded. May as well be in 20 ga with #3 Buck to fortify your bedroom or defend your home & family.

[wjkuleck]

There is no decimal in the gauge nomenclature


Well, actually, there is, in the original question:

"... .20ga is just as good as a .12ga ..."

Just my attempt to inject a little humor at NWDude83's expense.

I see the decimal affixed to shotgun gauge waaay to often to let it slide.

Regards, with the greatest respect,

Walt

[hpg]

Maybe at 10 yards and less.............................hpg

[2afreedom]

NW, tell your friend to get the 20 if he is interested in using it for protection. I am no ballistics expert but I am pretty sure a 20 guage loaded properly will get the job done better than any of the handguns many on here use for HD. The only advantage I can think of to the 12 is the wider selection of ammunition which isn't a huge deal because the 20 is plenty popular.

[Sarge]

Ayoob posts here occasionally and can speak for himself; but it seems like I recall that article in Backwoods magazine or a similar publication. IIRC, the tone of the article intended to encourage folks to use a 20, when they might have avoided the bigger shotgun altogether.

Personally, I much prefer the 12 for its ability to handle bigger shot and heavier slugs; I note that LE has not switched to the 20 in droves, either. For novice shooters, the advent of low-recoil loads for the 12 has pretty much rendered any recoil advantage of the 20 obsolete.

A svelte little double 20 for quail? Now there will always be a warm place in my heart for one of those, practical or not.

[FL-Flinter]

Okay, the 12ga does have the advantage when slinging larger buckshot but aside from buckshot, the 20ga will run with the 12 any day.

You have to be careful about "reduced recoil" loads no matter what the bore size. If the payload weight alone is reduced >for birdshot only< then the load is okay. If the payload remains relatively un-touched, they they have reduced the velocity of the load thus reducing it's performance and effectiveness.

Wing shooting and self-defense are at opposite ends of the spectrum and what's best for wing shooting isn't going to be best for S-D so forget the birdshot loads for S-D use. A 20 pellet load of #3 buck (pellets: 0.250" diameter, per-pellet weight 23.4 grains) at across-the-room ranges is going to knock the fight out of someone who is trying to do you/your family harm ...but... OBB (0.330" diameter, per-pellet weight 53.8 grains) obviously OOB pellets launched at close to the same velocity will improve penetration depth.

[Double Naught Spy]

Gotta agree with Sarge.

While I would prefer the extra power in a lethal force situation of the 12 ga. over the 20 ga., given developments like Knoxx Spec Ops stocks, the recoil issue isn't an issue and it solidifies my appreciation for the 12 ga. over the 20 ga. Heck with a Spec Ops stock, there isn't much need for low recoil loads of any sort.

[Sarge]

Wing shooting and self-defense are at opposite ends of the spectrum

Well, yes and no. It kinda depends on what you're used to. I have spent decades with an 870 riot gun and I can jump-shoot doves or quail with one about as easily as anything you can hand me; I also keep the mag topped-off without even thinking about it. So in that light I'm going to buy an old cop shotgun and have a set of tubes installed...probably have to make the 3-shot plug myself, especially if the thing has a factory extended mag.

I have investigated/seen the results of several shootings, both accidental and intentional, with both gauges. Some of those were bird shot and I can tell you without hesitation that:

a) I don't want to get shot with ANY shotgun, and

b) I would rather get shot with a 20 than a 12.

I wouldn't get rid of a good 20 I really liked, and there aren't many people who are going to take a dose from one and keep coming. It's been a while since I read the referenced article, but I believe that was the basic point.

The bigger bore is always going to do more work easier, regardless of what you're throwing shot or slugs at. If you can handle the 12 it's definitely the way to go.

[FL-Flinter]

Sarge,

My comments about wing shooting vs S-D are based on throwing birdshot at normal wing shooting ranges as opposed to buckshot at the bedroom range - two completely different applications. A heavy load of big shot in a 12 bore at close range is going to make more and bigger holes. A heavy load of birdshot at 40yds has an extremely long shot string that is prone to producing inconsistent point of impact patterns at lower velocity where as a lighter load producing a compact shot string and consisten point of impact patterns and running at a higher velocity makes for clean consistent kills.

When it comes down to it, at normal inside-the-house S-D range, ain't nobody taking a full power load of 3B or 2B from a 20ga in a fatal zone and living to tell about it unless they've got a vest on.