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Super-Dave
April 11, 2008, 07:45 AM
Can 00 buck penetrate car doors and be able to inflict enough damage to the thugs in the vehicle? (12 gauge 2.75" fired at less than 25 yards)

At what range will buck shot no longer be reliable enough to shoot through the front window of a car and still do enough damage to the driver?


I was wondering because when I was in the military most of the guard duty I did was with a remington 870. I wonder what would have been the results if I had to shoot at a moving car going through the gate with the shotgun.

The extint of my shotgun training was firing at silhoutes with buckshot for one day.

We would get extensive training on every other weapon you could think of but for shotgun one day at the range with maybe 10 shots per person.

They never even taught us how to field strip and clean the damm thing.

But yet we all could dissasemble and reasemble with a blind fold on M16, M249 Saw, M60, M2, Mk19, AK-47, M9, .45

Our platoon seargent would actully blind fold each of us and time us on how long it took us to disasemble and reasemble each one.

Why we never recieved much training on the shotgun but yet we carried them on gaurd duty is beyond me.

Creature
April 11, 2008, 08:01 AM
I have done this particular experiment before. 2.75" 00 Buck shot would easily penetrate a standard car door at 25 yards. Anyone inside would be minced meat. However, the pellets did not have enough steam to exit the other side through the other door. They dented the other door but couldn't penetrate.

mikenbarb
April 11, 2008, 08:07 AM
We had a couple old wrecks in the woods by me and we pummeled them over the years with anything from birdshot to slugs and yes buckshot will penetrate a car door and then some. A few went in one door and out the other. and these were old cars with real metal not the new junk recycled ones. Not sure of the range but im guessing anywhere from 2-30 yards. It was a blast to see the hornets flying out of their nests mad as hell that someone was making holes in them with buckshot. Then we would switch to #9's and see who could hit the most hornets from far away. One of my buddys got a little too close one day and they got a little revenge on him. Funniest thing we ever saw. Grown man jumping around and screaming like a little girl with a swarm of hornets around him. I guess they figured a hole for a hole.:D

Scattergun Bob
April 11, 2008, 09:18 AM
I was involved in a weeks worth of testing on this, from my state LE training department. I won't go through the details, just the good news.

1st - At 30 ft, not yards, 00 buck shot thru the side door windows still had adequate shot density to acceptably destroy manikins . (this was before true ballistic testing targets) Killed a bunch of those pastie fellows.

2nd - Testing 25 car doors of various makes, with a standing shooter 30 feet away and the doors at correct height. a high percentage of shot was directed downward due to the angle of entry into the door. Shot was stopped by door hardware, window hardware and hinge welds. LESSON - always shoot through the side windows if possible.

A lot more meaning less details, the point is, Yes it will, but better thru the window area, no obstructions to deflect or stop shot.

I don't have any data past 30 feet.

hope this helps, Good Luck and Be safe

kozak6
April 11, 2008, 11:30 PM
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot5.htm

Nemsis
April 12, 2008, 01:41 AM
I took a shotgun class where we had a door from a '78 Bronco to shoot at and from 20 yards a 9mm 115gr target load wouldn't penetrate, a 124gr JHP went through the outer steel but didn't penetrate the door panel, .40 and .45 target loads went right through. OO buck went right through and halfway through the 2x4 holding the door up, a 1oz slug went straight through the door and the 2x4.

.45 COLT
April 12, 2008, 06:37 AM
Scattergun Bob wrote:
"a high percentage of shot was directed downward due to the angle of entry into the door."

That's the affect the vertical angle of impact has. The horizontal angle also has a large affect on the penetration. Shooting at a stationary car door at a 90 degree angle will show one result, shooting at a moving car, or a stationary one at a different angle, will have a different result.

I recently sent several old cars & trucks to the crusher. They were so perforated that the crusher didn't have to work very hard.:D Everything from .380ACP to 12 Gauge slugs were put through those vehicles over about 3 years time. 00 Buck will penetrate, but in a shotgun vs. car scenario, for reliability a hard cast slug is the best, followed very closely by various large Roundball loads.

DC

Scattergun Bob
April 12, 2008, 08:44 AM
I have no disagreement with anything you gentlemen have said since I posted, you are correct buc does perpetrate car doors. I only suggest this,
"If you have the opportunity to shoot at the piece of meat above the door line do that, if you have to shoot thru the door body to hit the meat then do that."

45 Colt wrote "That's the affect the vertical angle of impact has" Yes, exactly, there were many controls for this experiment, the distance and the angle were established to simulate a officer standing with his shotgun and engaging sitting targets in a vehicle at what the experimenter believed was realistic combat distance (this control was off real shooting sitreps from our state) . It's been awhile but I think it was the actual angle of decent was 9 degrees, maybe? So, some of the shot deflected downward. I would like the shot to hit the upper thorax, neck, arms, hands, and head of my opponents.

I watched the video, it was great, it had the same problems as shooting manikins, hard to tell what was shot damage and what was spatter damage.

And finally, I totally agree with you COLT, The correct 12 gauge slug makes this discussion wasted electrons!

Good Luck & Be Safe

mpage
April 18, 2008, 07:11 AM
I'd imagine that the Buick o' Truth was constructed from a lighter type of steel or composite (or whatever the term is for later model cars). Here's an interesting video involving an older car shot at close range, and none of the shot penetrates the door (car shoot is about the 3:45 mark): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVUY6YKot4

Also, in this one, only a couple pellets penetrated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4KsHeRN56A

Straight Shooter
May 16, 2008, 09:38 AM
Check out the movie "Heat" for a pretty good example.

Boris Bush
May 16, 2008, 01:51 PM
Buckshot will penetrate car bodies but that is about it. Its ability to kill after entering a car is severly hindered after that. I know I know, you guys did it and the targets or off side door had impacts, but in actual shootings of buckshot through doors and car glass, it sucks.

Unfortunatly there is only one way to ever find that out................. A slug is a better option for shooting through cars.......

nemoaz
May 16, 2008, 09:18 PM
but in actual shootings of buckshot through doors and car glass, it sucks.Saw what was left of a badguy shot with two rounds of OO buck through the front windshield. DRT. His chest and neck was pretty ugly. Anecdotal, I know, but it's all I've got.

EHCRain10
May 16, 2008, 09:27 PM
I have shot many rounds of 00 at a set of doors (drivers side front and rear) that were removed from 70's impala, none of the pellets did more than dint the metal (less than 20 yards away)
newer cars are made of thinner metal so YMMV

Boris Bush
May 17, 2008, 04:14 PM
nemoaz


unless it was shot at extreme close range, the first shot more than likely just "softened up" the glass and the 2nd was the killer. I saw a car windshield shot one time with OO buck from about 10 yards and all it did was put a dent in it and of course make it break into a million pieces with out "breaking". A second round would have probably been a lethal one but the shooter was run over before he could shoot another round.

nemoaz
May 17, 2008, 05:23 PM
It was at extremely close range as the guy was trying to ram the agent. I don't know about whether round one penetrated (for sure) and didn't see the ROI (two other agencies did the investigations). However, it seemed like he had a lot of holes (more than 9) so I think pellets from both shells penetrated.

Boris Bush
May 17, 2008, 05:44 PM
However, it seemed like he had a lot of holes

I liked that so much I just had to quote it.......

nemoaz
May 17, 2008, 11:27 PM
deleted

Mannlicher
May 21, 2008, 05:59 PM
yes.......and no.

Hope that helps. :)