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View Full Version : Is YOUR China Copper mixed with IRON!


alfred
April 9, 2008, 12:20 PM
Being this is about firearm metal care,I put it here.Don't ruin your metal!!

Chain stores such as Wal-Mart to local.The old Pot scrubber,Medical equipment,metal cleaning and lead removing pads labeled "Copper Mesh Scourers" that I have used for over 50 years now have steel or Iron in them!Check out your innovatory and your purchases with a good Magnet.Any ferrous metal such as Iron or Steel will be attracted to a magnet.All stock we found in all but one store was found to be magnetic though labeled "Copper".Even worse is that I have cleaned the seating area on the regulators for large Oxygen and gas bottles with one for 55 years.Scratch the seating area and they leak and can cause a fire.Many like I have one in the home for medical reasons.A small town "building supply"was the only one who had A "Copper"pad and were individually packaged and sold for 3 times what a 3 pack of the cheaper mislabeled "Copper"fraudulent packs sold for.

I don't know if they are gilded like a steel jacketed bullet or much cheaper fine ferrous powder is is mixed with the copper to act as a lapping compound or polish.Either way and what ever the excuse,it is bad.It is a fraud.It is no mistake.They knew it was in the copper and even the slightest particles or amount will scratch.It is a irresponsible way to sell cheap iron at pure Copper prices with complete disregard for the results.If I want iron,I use 4 000 steel wool.

Please check it out with a good magnet and warn others.I hate to think of the damage already done to to so many things.I have no idea how long this has been going on as my old remaining stock was OLD.I mean like 30+ years OLD since I last stocked up by buying it bulk!Thanks.

I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING.alfred

Tom2
April 9, 2008, 04:29 PM
I will try to avoid scrubbing down my guns with pot scrubbers from now on.

orionengnr
April 9, 2008, 06:08 PM
No need to ridicule the OP. This is a legitimate issue.

I have seen numerous posts suggesting the use of a copper pot scrubber run through the bore to remove lead after shooting lead handloads.

I have been using a piece of a copper pot scrubber for exactly that purpose--ran a chunk down the bore of my .45 severalt times last night after returning from the range.

I just grabbed a magnet and my package of "Quickie" Copper Mesh Scourers. Guess what? The magnet sticks. Flip the package over, and it says...Made in China.

These things are going in the garbage can, and next time I go to buy some, my magnet is going with me.

alfred
April 9, 2008, 11:00 PM
The grocery store just got in some "Chore Boy" brand that are all Copper BUT they have a steel staple bunching the mesh together that has to be bent opened and removed.Don't make sense to me.

Orionengnr.Thanks for taking up for for me.We tell a lot about ourselves in our post.What we know and many times what we don't know,don't we?I may be a overdue dieing old Cripple but Momma still lets me play with the big boys,all the while having a lot of sympathy for them.I surly hope you did not damage your bore.It surly could not have been good for it.I learned to use it on guns from a old master gunsmith 50 years ago.I often wonder how long copper has been used to remove lead on and from within firearms?Old appliance cords with the fine woven copper wire was also used.You took a long piece,stripped back one end,wadded it up,stuck the other end through the barrel and pulled it through.You kept on doing this until your wire got too short.You then stripped out the rest and used it on wore out brushes to make them scrub again.Thanks.

I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING.alfred

Alleykat
April 10, 2008, 08:05 AM
I'm not using copper pads for anything right now, but I really appreciate Alfred's bring this to our attention. The only recommendations I've ever seen on forums like this for removing lead from bores called, specifically, for Chore Boy pads. Sounds like they're o.k.

BTW, just found out from the owner of 22 Hardee's that their "100%" Angus Thickburgers only have to be 51% for them to claim that they're "100%" Angus Thickburgers. What kind of sense does that make? BTW, the Thickburgers AREN'T made in China!

As much as many of us hate to admit, there are some great products @ good values coming out of China, but you do have to be careful.

Musketeer
April 10, 2008, 08:31 AM
I am in the precision metals turning industry and we have long had a joke around here concerning the "brass magnet". Needless to say brass is non magentic... or so we thought!

We got a call from a customer who makes magnetically actuated valve controllers that our brass parts were throwing off the calibration of their systems and were MAGNETIC!!! I pulled out a powerful magnet and checked some parts in stock and it appears the magnet could pick them up. The attraction was not strong, but it was there. Apparently the Fe content in brass turning alloys can be high enough to be affected by a magnet.

I do not know if your scouring pads are supposed to be 100% Cu or are a copper alloy. I would think the latter in which case you just may be seeing the same, normal, condition.

Hunter Customs
April 10, 2008, 08:34 AM
Good post alfred, thanks for the info.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

brickeyee
April 10, 2008, 09:31 AM
We got a call from a customer who makes magnetically actuated valve controllers that our brass parts were throwing off the calibration of their systems and were MAGNETIC!!! I pulled out a powerful magnet and checked some parts in stock and it appears the magnet could pick them up. The attraction was not strong, but it was there. Apparently the Fe content in brass turning alloys can be high enough to be affected by a magnet.

If the magnet was moved near the brass eddy currents WILL occur and cause a slight attraction.
If you touched the magnet to the object, then lifted it away to check for attraction that can be enough with a strong magnet to create the appearance of magnetic attraction.
This is the same affect used to create a magnetic damper on a scale.
The eddy currents only exist if there is relative motion between the magnet and a conductor.

primlantah
April 10, 2008, 03:46 PM
the eddy currents would require a velocity greater than zero on either the conductor or the magnetic field to exist. When the 2 components are no longer in motion relative to each other shouldn't the eddy current cease to exist? This would not create the appearance of magnetic attraction or inductance after the instant the parts have collided and stopped moving... or do i have this wrong? its been a lot of beer since electromagnetism and optics.

James K
April 10, 2008, 04:52 PM
I have often urged the use of copper or brass "wool" as an alternative to steel wool for removing light rust deposits. I will be careful from now on to add that the cleaner should be checked with a magnet. There is not much point in using "brass" or "copper" as an alternative to steel, if they really are steel.

Jim

alfred
April 10, 2008, 08:39 PM
Musketeer.Laugh if you wish.Your Brass is no Brass.Look up up the make up of Brass.You can Laugh your way out of business with your customers.Brass nor Copper have Ferrous metals in them.Had a product been marked "Alloy" I would have no problem with them.As you can see with your product.It has caused you a dissatisfied costumer who will be looking to find another source while you laugh at his problem,never realizing it is yours too.

Spick and Span "Chore Boy" (made in Mexico) is pure copper BUT some have a heavy steel staple in one end.Some do and some don't out of the same box.My wife went shopping with my magnet and bought me 8 boxes of them.I have removed 8 staples out of 16 pads.Why would they do this?Thanks fellow gun lovers.I just saw something that could ruin a firearm.

I also use these to clean the end of my revolver cylinders/barrels gaps and the cylinders.Chambers on revolvers,pistols,rifle,shotgun,single shot,Simi Auto,Double barrel,pump,you name it.Also my old pots and coffee pot collection as you have to have Coffee & vittles to mess with guns.

I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING.alfred

Musketeer
April 10, 2008, 09:49 PM
Musketeer.Laugh if you wish.(see below) Your Brass is no Brass.Look up up the make up of Brass.You can Laugh your way out of business with your customers.Brass nor Copper have Ferrous metals in them.Had a product been marked "Alloy" I would have no problem with them.As you can see with your product.It has caused you a dissatisfied costumer who will be looking to find another source while you laugh at his problem,never realizing it is yours too.


C36000
Copper 60 - 63
Iron 0.35 max
Lead 2.5 - 3.7
Remainder Each Zn
Remainder Total Cu + sum of named elements 99.


Ha ha ha ha...

You do not get more common than 360 brass when it comes to turning.

What pray tell could that be I see in there... IRON! Amazing.

The effect on its magnetism is caused by machining, drawing and being forced through a precision collet. It can be overcome through annealing.

ftp://geom.geometrics.com/pub/mag/ServiceBulletins/Degauss%20Service%20Bulletin.pdf

2.
How much effect does it have on magnetic signatures? Depending on the distance from the sensor to the magnetic object and the amount of magnetization, the effects can be very large -10’s of nanoTeslas. Many materials including brass, aluminum, fiberglass and other non-ferrous materials may have some ferrous materials in them naturally or acquired during the manufacturing process. Other materials such as ‘non-magnetic’ stainless steel are hugely magnetic when compared to the sensitivity of our magnetometers. Degaussing can decrease the magnetic effect of these materials by a factor of 10 or more.


So it seems brass components in a very magnetically sensitive application CAN be an issue!

Our offered solution was to anneal the brass parts, which would cause a reduction in its susceptibility to magnetism. The customer elected to simply adjust the calibration protocol in assembly to account for this. Once they knew it was normal it wasn't a serious concern.

I wouldn't worry bout the customer though. We are now sole source for every screw machine part we can fit into our machines and knocked the three previous suppliers out of there over three years ago.

FYI, both the customer and I laugh about discovering magnetic brass and occasionally mess with new people by having them get the special "brass magnet."

alfred
April 10, 2008, 11:12 PM
I ask all to research this their selves as it is your firearms.

Brass has been 67% Copper and 33% Zinc for eternity.When lead is added to soften Brass for ease of machining or iron to harden it to make it easier to forge,it is a alloy and is listed as such by reputable suppliers and standard specifications for such worldwide.It has been a long time but I passed metallurgy with flying colors in the Navy and also in civilian machinist school.I also just looked it up on line on the metal suppliers web pages to be sure.

As for the Degaussing that you brought up.I do not think many of us are set up to or have a need to "Degauss" if we can find Copper or Brass and not a alloy.How much is necessary if no iron is present?Now marine ship Degaussing and magnetic mine fuses I know a little about.

I will not argue with you as you consider yourself the pro.I do invite everyone to "research this themselves" as brass is a very common metal to be found in older firearms.Even the tiniest ferrous metal particles are a no no in my copper or Brass simply because it can scratch and even liquefied and mixed with copper it "hardens" it which is a no no and can be destructive if used as "Copper".

I would hate to replace the brass in my Lithgow Enfield with a brittle Iron alloy type brass.Wouldn't you?

Many times a truth is so simple that many can not fathom it.

I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING.alfred

4V50 Gary
April 10, 2008, 11:43 PM
Thanks for the advisory. It is indeed a serious matter. I've used Chore Boy for years to help remove stubborn leading. It's good to know that the stuff has to be tested before one accelerates wear in their barrel.:(

Musketeer
April 11, 2008, 05:18 AM
C36000 is recognized World wide as a alloy.Not Brass.

What a complete joke. I have hundred of prints where the material specification from the customer reads "Free Cutting Brass."

Let's see what the CDA call it

http://www.copper.org/applications/rodbar/alloy360/homepage.html
Free-Cutting Brass (Alloy C360)

Wow, C360 is known as free cutting brass.

Hey, it's alright for you to be incorrect. The amount of people who believe machinable brass is immune to magnetism is huge, I was part of the group until I ran into it head first. Trying to "Clintonize" the definition of brass though to not include C36000 "Free Machining Brass" is pretty damn laughable. Shall we discuss the meaning of the word "is" now?

alfred
April 11, 2008, 12:39 PM
Musketeer.Why do you keep leaving out the word "Alloy"?It is listed as a "alloy" in your own references.My only concern is that the alloys are harder and more brittle than the pure stuff and will often crack instead of give under certain types of stress where it is used to repair a old firearm.I have seen this when using old scrap ball valves.It will also scratch things pure Copper or Brass will not.I know it is great for your use and I have used products made with it and made things from it for about 50 years.It has its place.Being passed off as pure is not one of them.You own it,you call it what you want.I don't buy from you,I do not have to.

I have posted to help folk with guns.Not to argue something that is on line for all to see.I see no point in stating my beliefs on metals anymore.I also do not understand the politicking of words or leaving out part of a description such as "Alloy".I also do not understand the China Way of justifying misrepresentation of a product by omission.Yes I am out of my league as I consider it dishonest and fraudulent.Thanks.

I AIN'T DEAD AND i AIN'T QUITTING.alfred

Musketeer
April 11, 2008, 01:50 PM
Copper is an Element.

Brass is a family of Alloys (Copper Alloys).

C36000, C38500, C37700, C35300, JIS C3604, ISO CuZn39Pb3, etc at all Copper Alloys which are classified as Brasses.

Any of the above alloys are "pure brass".

Saying a brass with Fe in it is still brass is in not "misrepresenting anything."

Even the Brass your cases is made out of can contain Iron. C26000, commonly called cartridge brass, can contain up to .05% Iron and .07% lead. It is a more malleable form of brass, suitable for cold forming (how cases are made) and not machining due to low lead (and to some degree iron) content.

Don't believe me though, look at what the Copper Development Association says.

http://www.copper.org/resources/properties/microstructure/brasses.html

So why am I belaboring this basic principal...

I also do not understand the China Way of justifying misrepresentation of a product by omission.Yes I am out of my league as I consider it dishonest and fraudulent.Thanks.

That, combined with your statements about my handling of customers with regards to this issue directly calls into question my competency and honesty. Calling something brass when it is brass according to every expert and standards organization on the planet is not "politicking". It is not an omission if I quote Free Machining Brass and provide C36000 which is and has been for 50+ (possibly 100+) years Free Machining Brass.

FYI, the majority of my brass parts are made in my Swiss factory, which has turned them out for 150+ years. The next time I go over there I will have to explain to them they have been running "impure" brass for a century and a half.

brickeyee
April 11, 2008, 02:31 PM
the eddy currents would require a velocity greater than zero on either the conductor or the magnetic field to exist. When the 2 components are no longer in motion relative to each other shouldn't the eddy current cease to exist? This would not create the appearance of magnetic attraction or inductance after the instant the parts have collided and stopped moving... or do i have this wrong? its been a lot of beer since electromagnetism and optics.

It is how everyone performs the test that gives a false result.

Touch magnet to object.
Lift magnet away. (Notice magnet it is now moving.)
Note that the object moves.
Declare it magnetic.

i used to move a 1/2 inch 6061 Al plate around on my desk using a very powerful magnet.
Simply stroke the magnet across the plate and it slides from the eddy fields on the smooth desktop.

Alleykat
April 11, 2008, 03:58 PM
A nitpicker by any other name is still...well...a nitpicker! Buy the Choreboys and don't sweat the sophomoric obsession with semantics of the unwashed masses!:D

Unclenick
April 11, 2008, 05:11 PM
I have noticed the Chinese and other cheaper brands are either high iron alloy or copper-washed mild steel, but are not pure. Just for fun, you can toss a sample into a pickle jar with some ammonia and see whether a steel skeleton is left behind? You can also leave one outside for awhile and watch it for rust.

I haven't tried, but suspect you won't find any eddy current influence on the scouring pads. That works on solid metal, which gives the eddy currents the straight path perpendicular to the moving magnetic field they require. The reason transformer cores are a stack of thin iron plates with insulating oxide on their surface is to stop eddy currents by breaking up their paths. If you try to make one with a solid block of iron, its efficiency is terrible. The eddy currents make it very hot and that wastes a lot of energy; not to mention destroying the wire insulation with that heat if you try to run much power through it. The separate strands of the copper pad should have much the same effect as the transformer plates, with eddys only able to move at the strand contact points, which are very small in net area.

Midway sells a special alloy pad just for the purpose of lead removal, but I haven't tried it. Over $5 a pad, IIRC.

Slopemeno
April 11, 2008, 05:26 PM
OR- just buy a lead wipe-away cloth and call it a day.

Unclenick
April 11, 2008, 05:33 PM
They are good, but don't remove heavy leading as rapidly. Also, they contain aluminum oxide abrasive. Though it is fine and aluminum oxide grit is not very sharp, if you polish a smooth piece of aluminum with Flitz and then wipe it with one of those cloths, you will see the surface is no longer a mirror. So you want to avoid using those cloths on high polish bluing. Stainless finishes make it pretty impossible to see.

Personally, I have some of Wipe Out's new lead solvent on order. Hoping to get elbow grease out of the equation altogether.

radom
April 12, 2008, 02:14 AM
what about the match test? if its steel or has mainly steel in it a match should make it light off like crazy. I am thinking that copper or brass wont flare up and burn like steel wool will.

ZeroJunk
April 12, 2008, 06:10 AM
The reason transformer cores are a stack of thin iron plates with insulating oxide on their surface is to stop eddy currents by breaking up their paths

Cool. I always thought it was so the laminations in your ballast would separate and the noise would run you out of the room.:)

Unclenick
April 12, 2008, 01:32 PM
I never said it wasn't dual purpose! :D