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View Full Version : 6.5" barrel...is this legal ?


Don Lu
April 5, 2008, 10:27 AM
http://www.gundirectory.com/guns/20708-1.jpg

Frank Ettin
April 5, 2008, 11:05 AM
No

DDG89
April 5, 2008, 11:51 AM
Here ya go: it is legal see the notes on this web page.
http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

Frank Ettin
April 5, 2008, 12:18 PM
Usually, the question "is it legal" means is it a firearm not subject to the NFA of 1934, i. e., may it generally be purchased in accordance with only the formalities required under state law by someone generally qualified under state law to own a firearm. And the answer to that questions is "no."

This is an NFA weapon and requires qualification under federal law, registration under the NFA and the payment of an NFA transfer tax. It may also be illegal under the laws of some states that further restrict NFA weapons.

SPUSCG
April 5, 2008, 03:27 PM
that gun is so stupid

rem870hunter
April 5, 2008, 03:41 PM
i wouldn't buy or own one of them. but i would like to shoot it a few times. it would probably would hurt like a somb&^%$.

Edward429451
April 5, 2008, 04:17 PM
From what I understand, it's only a 5 dollar permit for an AOW to possess a shorty legally. But a better question is...what's it good for?:confused:

It's like, the worst of both worlds.

Don Lu
April 5, 2008, 04:32 PM
Every gun doesnt not need to have a prctical use, Some thing you buy for the "cool"/fun factor..other things you buy just b/c you can...how easy is it to get that NFA registration...if it matters, i lve in GA...

Edward429451
April 5, 2008, 05:56 PM
18" barrels and full stocks are cool, and the fun factor is potentiated when you can hit with it. Ok ok, I'll stop.:D

I dunno what it takes to get the permit, never tried it. Prolly like a ccw app, fee, prints, background check that smells like roses. They either approve you or send your 5 bucks back I think.

lon371
April 5, 2008, 06:27 PM
Are you kidding? waite a couple months and some one here will post a range report. It looks cool, and goes boom, AND COST $700. Someone will have to buy one. Just waite a bit. :D

Bill DeShivs
April 5, 2008, 06:38 PM
There is no PERMIT.
There is a tax stamp that you purchase after going through a federal background check.
The stamps cost $5.00 (Any Other Weapon), or $200.00 (Short Barreled Shotgun)

Tamara
April 5, 2008, 07:06 PM
What Mr. DeShivs said is correct.

Further, you mail your check off with the completed paperwork and the BATFE keeps your money whether you get the tax stamp or not.

But you will get the tax stamp. If you are legal to own a single shot .22, you are legal to own a quad-.50 AAMG setup.


(BTW: I met Mr. Serbu's dad at my previous place of employment. Nice guy.)

Travis Beck
April 5, 2008, 08:17 PM
Check your state and local laws, as they will also apply. You will also need to get the application approved by the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" in your area. That may be tricky depending upon their beliefs or your ability to make a campaign contribution.

You're also agreeing to periodic inspections by BATFE and voluntarily placing yourself on a federal registry.

Bill DeShivs
April 5, 2008, 08:30 PM
There are no "periodic inspections."

Travis Beck
April 5, 2008, 08:39 PM
Are you not required to produce the weapon upon request of the BATFE?

Bill DeShivs
April 5, 2008, 08:54 PM
Yes, you must-but they don't make "periodic inspections."

Crosshair
April 6, 2008, 01:43 AM
Yes, you must-but they don't make "periodic inspections."
They also can't come to your door unannounced and demand to see it on the spot.

JB Books
April 6, 2008, 11:21 AM
Contrary to the "gun show" mentality that the ATF is slobbering to break down your door and take your guns, I have found them to extremely courteous and professional. The most important thing about a NFA weapon is securing it so someone dosn't break into your house and it ends up in the wrong hands (but that's true of a Colt SAA as well).

Really, this view of the ATF as anti-gun is bewildering and silly. I've had nothing but positive experiences with them.

Bill DeShivs
April 6, 2008, 01:24 PM
Individual agents can be very nice, or real asses.
The agency itself has an anti-gun stance.

DonR101395
April 6, 2008, 01:36 PM
Check your state and local laws, as they will also apply. You will also need to get the application approved by the "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" in your area. That may be tricky depending upon their beliefs or your ability to make a campaign contribution.

You're also agreeing to periodic inspections by BATFE and voluntarily placing yourself on a federal registry.

Your knowledge of the NFA process is astounding.
The only interaction I've had with the ATF is them sending me my tax stamp back in the mail. I've never had to get an LEO sign off on any forms.......or submit finger prints.........or submit photos.............or make a campaign contribution.;)



Oh yea, the Serbu. Not my cup of tea, they keep making them so someone is buying them.

drail
April 10, 2008, 07:34 PM
The Ricardo Tubbs Memorial Model.

predator86
April 11, 2008, 04:31 AM
i think its cool, if i had 700 bucks that i wanted to blow then i would spend it on that but i have other things that need to be purchased first....

and asking is it legal? maybe you should read this, it is from the serbu webpage and is right underneath the pic that you posted-

The SUPER-SHORTY is based on a Mossberg Maverick (also available on Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 at additional cost) 12-gauge shotgun which came from the factory with a pistol grip. Because of this, the SUPER-SHORTY is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and can be transferred with a $5 stamp!


isnt this what all the replies said?

douglasschuckert
April 19, 2008, 10:03 AM
Ok.. There is a LOT lot of misinformation on this thread. First off, this is considered an AOW which stands for Any Other Weapon. It is a one time only $5.00 Transfer "Tax". It is not a permit, a license, or anything other than a Tax.

To own you have to use a Class II or Class III SOT (Special Occupancy Taxpayer). This is a manufacturer or standard FFL that has paid the extra tax money and opted to manufacture or sell National Firearms Act weapons and devices. To own them you have to go about it 1 of 3 ways.

First Way:

1. Contact an SOT in your area
2. Inquire about the legalities of an AOW in your State/Local Community
3. Purchase the AOW through your SOT.
4. After it arrives at your SOT, you have to go there and fill out some forms.
4a. An ATF Form 5320.4, also known as ATF Form 4.
4b. Take this filled out form to your Chief of State Police (any branch director can sign) or Sherrif (Chief Law Enforcement Officer), and they have to sign off on your form. This signature is only there stating that they are aware of your purchasing NFA and that they have no knowledge you will do something illegal with it.
5. While you're there get two sets of fingerprint cards taken (FingerPrint Cards MUST be made by a Law Enforcement Unit/Branch)
6. Go to Kinko's or someplace and get 2 Passport Photos taken
7. Fill out a "Citizenship Verification Form".
8. All forms MUST BE IN DUPLICATE
9. Make out a check for $5.00 to BATF&E
10. Mail it all off ( 2x Form 4, 2x Citizen Verification Form, 2x Fingerprints, 2x Passport photos - these will be attached to the Form 4, and your check) to the address on the Form 4 and wait... wait...wait... and wait some more... and just when you think all hope is lost (about 30:90 days) you're dealer will give you a call telling you your Form 4 is back approved. And you go down to the SOT's shop and pick up the shotgun.. It then can be treated like ANY OTHER SHOTGUN YOU OWN!!!

Second Way (best way):

1. Contact an Attorney and have him draft a "Trust".
1a. You want to use an attorney versed in NFA Trusts to make sure all your ducks are covered. Although Quicken Will Maker can make a trust for you its not smart to do things this way. NFA IS DANGEROUS AND COULD GET YOU IN TROUBLE.. BEST USE AN ATTORNEY). PM me, I know of a REAL good one.
2. Go to the SOT and order the shotgun
3. Fill out the Form 4, Citizen Certification, and $5.00 check.
4. Mail out the stuff from line 3 along with a notarized copy of your Trust to the address on the form. With the Trust route you do NOT need the fingerprint cards, CLEO signature, or Passport Photos.
5. Wait 30:60 days and the SOT will call you saying your Form is approved.

Third Way:

1. Start a Chapter C or S Corporation or Limited Liability Company (non profit corps do not quality).
2. Fill out the Form 4 to the Corporation or LLC
3. Enclose the citizenship paperwork, Form 4, check, and articles of incorporation to the address on the form.
4. Wait 30:60 days and get the call from the SOT. Pick up the shotgun.

The reason I say use the "NFA Trust" route is because its the simplest. You can transfer ANY legal to own NFA items to the SAME trust. It ensures the items get willed down to your family, and you can even include instructions that say exactly what to do in the even of your death or incapacitation. This is important because if you only own 1 NFA item or several and your husband/wife doesn't know a think about NFA and something happens to you, they are now in ILLEGAL possession of NFA. Its a $200,000.00 fine and 10 years in Federal Prison. The Trust can tell them EXACTLY what they need to do (its simple.. they file a Form 5 (transfer tax-free) to either 1. sell off the item(s) or 2. legally keep the items.

The corporation route is good, except you have to file tax returns every year on your corp. The IRS only allows 5 $0.00 profit tax returns the you have to 1.disolve the corp and with it the NFA, or 2. make a profit.

The Individual way sucks... It's hard to get most CLEO's to sign off on the form. You have to get the crappy fingerprint cards, the passport photos, and its just a pain in the ass... AND YOU HAVE TO REPEAT THE PROCESS EACH AND EVERY TIME YOU WANT TO PURCHASE ADDITIONAL NFA!!! ITS UGLY. The Trust will cost you about $450.00 and is a ONE TIME THING and ALL YOUR NFA PURCHASES CAN GO ON THE SINGLE TRUST... TRUST ME, ONCE YOU PURCHASE 1 NFA ITEM, YOU WILL ULTIMATELY PURCHASE MORE.. THE TRUST ROUTE IS BY FAR THE SAFEST, EASIEST, FASTEST, AND BEST WAY TO DO THINGS!!!

Once you pay the ATF Transfer Tax you never have to pay it again unless you choose to when you sell it to someone out of state. If you want to sell it to someone IN YOUR STATE you can transfer it directly to them without having to use a dealer... OUT OF STATE YOU HAVE TO TRANSFER IT TO THE OTHER STATE'S FFL/SOT FIRST!!!

Price Guide:

Any Other Weapon/AOW (pistol with a forward grip, pen gun, factory-made pistol-grip shotgun with a barrel less than 18", Wallet Holsters, ect..) = $5.00.

Short Barreled Shotguns/SBS (shotguns that came from the factory with a stock and have barrels less than 18")
$200.00

Short Barreled Rifles/SBR (rifles with barrels less than 16")
$200.00

Fully Automatic Weapons/FA (made and registered prior to May 1986)
$200.00

Silencer/Sound Moderator/Gun Muffler/Suppressor
$200.00

Destructive Devices (any weapons having a chamber and/or barrel with an opening 1.5" or greater that is NOT DESIGNED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES, IE some shotguns, 20mm rifle, 40mm grenade launcher, ect)
$200.00

These are the costs associated with TRANSFER TAX. REMEMBER THIS IS A ONE TIME FEE AND IS NOT A PERMIT, NOT A LICENSE, AND NOT A PERMISSION SLIP TO OWN..

All above items ARE LEGAL to own by private citizens IF YOUR STATE ALLOWS THEM! CHECK WITH AN SOT IN YOUR STATE. PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM AND WWW.UZITALK.COM CAN HELP YOU LOCATE ONE! (Im "MallNinja" on UziTalk).

The shotgun in question here is a Super-Shorty. Its a BLAST to shoot, and it doesn't hurt one bit! Its not bad at all.. I shot one several months ago with 3.5" 00 Buck and it barley bit the web of my firing hand. I LOVED IT. I've seen these mounted on the undercarriage of M16's in Iraq for door breaching and I've seen them carried by VIP protection people as well. If you want something that will ALWAYS bring a smile to your face, (not to mention braggin rights) this is the way to do it!!!

Misconceptions.. I know this because I OWN !!! LOADS !!! OF NFA, AND HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR A VERY VERY VERY LONG TIME!!

ONCE THIS ITEM IS IN YOUR POSSESSION, LEGALLY, THE ATF CANNOT, I REPEAT CANNOT, LEGALLY TREAT THE POSSESSION ANY DIFFERENT THAN A STANDARD FIREARM!!! THEY CAN NOT 'INSPECT' THE ITEM WHEN THEY WANT TO, THEY CAN NOT KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR AND DEMAND THAT YOU SHOW IT TO THEM (IF THEY DO, SLAM THE DOOR IN THEIR FACE AND CALL THEIR BOSS IN WASHINGTON/YOUR LOCAL COPS AND FILE HARASSMENT CHARGES.. THAT IS ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO DO!!!)!! YOU ARE UNDER NO LEGAL REQUIREMENTS TO SHOW YOUR FORM TO NON-ATF PERSONNEL (AS THIS IS A TAX DOCUMENT AND THEREFORE COVERED UNDER THE PRIVACY ACT OF 1974)... YOU MUST HOWEVER TAKE THE FORM WITH YOU TO THE RANGE (I ALWAYS, ALWAYS HAVE MY FORMS WITH ME. IF A COP ASKS POLITELY TO SEE IT, I SHOW IT). COPS CANNOT LEGALLY TAKE THE FORM OR THE WEAPON FROM IF YOU ARE NOT IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL/STATE/LOCAL LAWS. THEY WOULD BE THEN IN POSSESSION OF ILLEGALLY POSSESSED NFA, AND THEY COULD GET BUSTED ON THIS.. MOST EVERY COP KNOWS THIS SO WONT TRY AND TAKE IT.. SOME COPS WILL BUST YOUR BALLS JUST TO MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE RULES, BUT MOST COPS WILL BE COOL XXXXX WITH YOU.. MATTER OF FACT MOST OF THEM ARE NFA OWNERS THEMSELVES. THIS IS A HUGE MISCONCEPTION ABOUT NFA.


IF FOR SOME REASON THE ATF DOES NOT APPROVE YOUR FORM 4, YOU WILL NOT LOOSE YOUR MONEY!!!! THE ATF WILL GIVE YOU BACK YOUR MONEY! THEY ALWAYS HAVE AND ALWAYS WILL!!! THEY CAN NOT LEGALLY KEEP THE MONEY!!!!!! ITS CALLED THEFT, AND TAX FRAUD IF THEY DO!!!!!!!!! IF YOU DO THINGS THE PROPER WAY, AND YOU CAN OWN A LEGAL HANDGUN, THEN YOUR FORM 4 WILL NOT... WILL NOT.. BE DISAPPROVED. THIS IS ANOTHER HUGE MISCONCEPTION ABOUT NFA.

THE ATF/FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE STORAGE REQUIREMENTS FOR NFA ITEMS... IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT YOU USE SECURE STORAGE, BUT THE ATF DOES NOT, I REPEAT DOES NOT, CARE OF YOU USE IT OR NOT.

You can also legally construct your own suppressor/SBR/SBS/AOW. Fill out a Form 1 (ATF Form 5320.1) and mail it off (Identical to the process for a Form 4 except its a Form 1). Once that is approved (and it will be) make the NFA item in question... Its simple. It costs $200.00 Tax Stamp to do it. Same as if you purchased it through an SOT (except AOW. The transfer is 5 bucks, to make it yourself its 200).

You ask how do I know these things?

Well I own a machine gun and several suppressors (im constantly purchasing NFA) and other stuff. I have 2 more suppressors on transfer as I type this... I AM NOT A DEALER and DO NOT HAVE ANY SPECIAL PERMITS.. IM NOT A COP, IM NOT MILITARY ... Im an average joe-schmoe with a sickening love of weapons. I collect guns, NFA, swords, knives, little babies... (ok, joking on the little babies part.. my wife is expecting our 4th though... so I guess I could be considered a "baby collector"? :-) ?.

If you have any questions, just shoot me and email or PM me... Dont listen to a bunch of people that do not know what they are talking about. I bet you a million bucks that the people that are telling you the ATF can come into your home at any time or that you'll loose your money if your disapproved, or other PROBLEMS, do not own NFA. They only fantasize about it, or if they do own a NFA item or two they haven't owned it for very long and dont know the rules....

Another point to NFA. If you want to attend a shoot or take the thing out of state, you will need to file another form an ATF Form 5320.20 (Form 20) for all NFA - EXCEPT - Suppressors & AOW's. The item(s) has to be legal at the destination. Once this is approved you may transport these items NO DIFFERENTLY than regular firearms. You DO NOT Have to notify ANY police officer or sherrif you have it... NOTHING. SAME EXACT RULES APPLY AS STANDARD FIREARMS.

YOU LIVE IN GA, YOU'RE GOLDEN. FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE AND YOU'LL BE THE PROUD OWNER OF NFA BEFORE TO MUCH LONGER..

If you want to start with NFA, but cant affor the $700.00 I have a friend who sells .22LR suppressors for $199.00.. They come with a LIFETIME warranty (you will never shoot it out), and will make your .22LR sound EXACTLY like a Pellet Gun/Air Rifle... EXACTLY... type in .22 suppressor in youTube's site.

Most of what you see here is accurate information. I've put it all together here and told you step by step. If you have any questions, Im happy to assist.

P.S. You are not voluntarily putting yourself on "The Federal Registry" there is no such thing... There IS an "NFA Registry", and yes the entity you used to register the NFA item to is listed in that Registry, but it is NEVER used for any other purpose than to keep track. They do not use it to create some secret intelligence dossier on you, they do not send secret agents to your door to spy on you, and they dont tap your phone because if you own NFA you must be a terrorist... AND IT DOES NOT, DOES NOT, ADD YOU TO THE FEDERAL WATCH LIST... It's the identifying information from your Form, the entity registered to, and the address used. If there are any open or previous 5320.20's filed and the Tax Stamp serial number thats entered into a database, and a copy of your form 4 stuffed into a filing cabinet (they either have or will shortly an addition to the registry that lets them keep a scanned copy of your form attached to the database entry. So say the gun is stolen then used in a crime. They can search the serial and trace it back to you. They will then see that a report has been made to them the items been stolen, and that will be it... Nothing more.. You probably wont even get a call about it... Thats it.. Nothing special or super secret about it... Besides theres this little thing called Intelligence Oversight that specifically keeps them from collecting intelligence on you... (just google it).

VUPDblue
April 19, 2008, 05:27 PM
Dang, you're long winded;)

Sparky33
April 19, 2008, 05:50 PM
Yes but still very informative. Thanks for the info.

skydiver3346
April 19, 2008, 06:49 PM
Did anyone mention it is a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years in Federal pen for owning or possessing a weapon like this without a Classe III license..........

DonR101395
April 19, 2008, 06:54 PM
Classe III license..

There is no such animal.

furyfour
April 19, 2008, 07:31 PM
Good info Douglas-

Also good to see a fellow Pensacolian about!

Bill DeShivs
April 19, 2008, 10:05 PM
People simply won't READ.

Edward429451
April 19, 2008, 11:29 PM
It is not a permit, a license, or anything other than a Tax.


For all practical purposes it's a permit...If you don't pay the tax, then you're not permitted to own it and will go to jail if found in possession of it.:D

VUPDblue
April 20, 2008, 08:31 AM
Did anyone mention it is a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years in Federal pen for owning or possessing a weapon like this without a Classe III license..........

Wow, just wow...

B.N.Real
April 20, 2008, 10:32 AM
You ever show this weapon out in public and you are likely to be arrested immediately.

Is it really worth that much hassle to own.

Unlike a Barrett rifle or a Thompson sub machine gun (and this supposes they are unloaded at the time and in their transport cases)where you can easily show the paperwork for the firearm,short barrel(i,e, sawed off' type) shotguns are a particular type of weapon that all police officers immediately suppose you are up to no good.

I have always heard and read that the barrel has to be longer than eighteen inches.

And some localities frown upon pistol grip 18" long shotguns as well.

If you want to be arrested,this shotgun will get you that everytime a law officer sees it with you.

DonR101395
April 20, 2008, 10:34 AM
You ever show this weapon out in public and you are likely to be arrested immediately.

BS


Is it really worth that much hassle to own.

Unlike a Barrett rifle or a Thompson sub machine gun (and this supposes they are unloaded at the time and in their transport cases)where you can easily show the paperwork for the firearm,short barrel(i,e, sawed off' type) shotguns are a particular type of weapon that all police officers immediately suppose you are up to no good.

I have always heard and read that the barrel has to be longer than eighteen inches.

And some localities frown upon pistol grip 18" long shotguns as well.

If you want to be arrested,this shotgun will get you that everytime a law officer sees it with you.

:rolleyes:

Edward429451
April 20, 2008, 10:55 AM
BN real does have a point don. Cops around here are of the well we're going to arrest you just to be sure, but don't worry, if its legal you can show the paperwork to the judge and everything will be ok for you persuasion....which wouldn't stop the arrest or impounding of the weapon.

Anytime there's a grey area the citizen loses in my experiance.

DonR101395
April 20, 2008, 11:41 AM
BN real does have a point don. Cops around here are of the well we're going to arrest you just to be sure, but don't worry, if its legal you can show the paperwork to the judge and everything will be ok for you persuasion....which wouldn't stop the arrest or impounding of the weapon.

Anytime there's a grey area the citizen loses in my experiance.


His reasoning is faulty, he says they are going to arrest you for a "sawed off shotgun" but let you show them the papers for a Thompson and life will be ok. That is BS. If they are going to arrest you without cause and without checking the paperwork they will do it for either item because they are ignorant of the law and will then pay for their ignorance. I've never sued anyone and have many friends including a wife who is LEO and would have no problem bringing a lawsuit against them for their unlawful actions. It's not my fault if they are ignorant of the law and incompetent.
As long as your paperwork is in order, you're not going to lose. You quite possibly could end up with more cash for more NFA items. I have never had cause to bring a lawsuit, but that would give me cause.

douglasschuckert
April 20, 2008, 11:16 PM
I ABSOLUTELY DARE a Police Officer to arrest me because I have a legally possessed NFA weapon! MAN oh MAN... I can guarantee it would be the LAST arrest that cop EVER made.

There is a thing called wrongful arrest (that ALL states have it).. If a cop says he's not aware of a requirement, they ARE NOT permitted to arrest due to their ignorance. They WILL CALL their station and seek advise BEFORE they use the bracelets. Their jobs and their personal freedom are at stake EVERY TIME THEY MAKE AN ARREST!

It would be SO VERY EASY for ANY attorney to win a "Wrongful Arrest" suite because a cop arrested you, impounded your NFA illegally, and made you waste the magistrate’s time and YOUR money to pay for the unnecessary court fees...

Not to mention that Police Officer that perped the arrest is in Violation of the National Firearms Act! He's going to do up to 10 years and pay upto $250,000.00 fine for being stupid...

NO THIS SHOTGUN IS NOT GOING TO GET YOU ARRESTED! Matter of fact it IS a LOT different than a Thompson Submachine gun. Full Auto weapons carry MUCH MORE mystique than SBS's do! Especially where Law Enforcement is concerned!

VUPDBlue said it well... "Wow...just Wow"

(oh hell yeah I’m long winded! ;) Im in Pakistan on Government assignment with NOTHING else to do! :p )