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rem870hunter
March 23, 2008, 07:56 PM
can i legally shoot at targets or have on my or my inlaws property (with their permission of course) a firearm that cannot be owned in my state?

i am in NJ :barf:, my brother-in-law has a good friend in florida that has some full auto firearms . if he were coming here to visit can he legally bring them here with or without ammo just to shoot targets with them. he is not going to leave any here or sell any to me or anyone else here. he would just be bringing them here to shoot them. if he doesn't bring ammo it would be purchased here in NJ. and all of it used , which should hopefully prevent problems in his travels to and from NJ.

wjkuleck
March 23, 2008, 08:20 PM
In general, you cannot bring a prohibited firearm into a state that forbids them. I say "in general," but I cannot think of a single exception.

As for full-auto, the transfer to NJ must be approved on a Form 5 by the BATFE. This is necessary even if the transfer is temporary, by the same and continuing owner. If full-auto is prohibited in NJ, the form will not approved and the full-auto will remain in FL.

Ammo has nothing to do with it, unless you're trying to bring in (even to shoot) prohibited ammo. I seem to recall NJ having some goofy restriction...

Regards,

Walt

Al Norris
March 23, 2008, 08:55 PM
This is a question best answered by the guys over in the NFA forum. Moving....

rem870hunter
March 23, 2008, 09:20 PM
sorry for posting in the wrong area. thank you for moving the thread.

so far it sounds he can't even bring the firearms here at all. even if he is only going to bring them here to target shoot with them. and when he leaves to go home he is going to take them with him.

they are registered to him and the paperwork all legal and tax paid on them. he would not be moving here with them, selling them or loaning them to me or another resident of NJ or another banned state. this also means he would not be transferring them to anyone or anywhere.

they would be in his possesion on my land or my inlaws land when we would be shooting them and he would be present there when we shoot.

si vis pacem, para b
March 23, 2008, 11:08 PM
Not trying to hijack this forum but my situation seems to fall in the same subject matter. I plan on travelling to New Jersey from Texas in the coming months. Am I allowed to have my gun with me while I am there? I have a CHL here and I know I won't be able to carry while I am there But when I ask my family about the gun laws in New Jersey it seems like they are in another world over there. When I tell them that I carry, they're response is usually something like are you a COP or some sort of LEO? I would at least like to have it with me when I am at the house if I can. Can I??????

rem870hunter
March 24, 2008, 04:53 AM
sic vis pacem,
i would check with the NJ state police on that. www.njsp.org. you can legally own semi-auto here that i am sure of . SBS,SBR probably not.

the detachable mag capacity is no more than 15 here. you can have no more than 2 of the following on the firearm, protruding pistol grip, folding or collapsible stock, bayonet lug,flash hider, mag capacity over 15.

mag capcity no more than 15 rounds for rifles and pistols no more than 7 for shotguns even if its manually operated but especially if its semi-auto. and my guess is that the states you travel through they would probably have to be legal in them too. whatever you avoid going through D.C. with any, handguns especially.

out of curiosity what part of NJ you coming to?

wjkuleck
March 24, 2008, 07:56 AM
my guess is that the states you travel through they would probably have to be legal in them too

Thanks to GOPA '86 so long as the weapons are secured (e.g., in a locked case, in the trunk), you can transport a weapon from Point A to Point B anywhere in the lower 48, so long as the weapon is legal to possess (remember, possession is possession, not ownership!) at both point A and point B. Don't take them out during your trip in any state or local jurisdiction where they are prohibited!

so far it sounds he can't even bring the firearms here at all. even if he is only going to bring them here to target shoot with them. and when he leaves to go home he is going to take them with him

If your BIL owns those full-autos legally, then he should be aware that he can't take them to another state—even "just visiting"—without a Form 5 approval from the BATFE. We (Fulton Armory (http://www.fulton-armory.com/)) suggest that a Form 5 be processed for any full-auto (M16 or M14) sent to us for service, "just in case" (the BATFE official position on sending a full-auto to an armorer for work is "you don't need to, but get Form 5 approval 'Just in Case'"!).

Are full-autos permitted by NJ state law? They are verboten in CA, for example. Your BIL would not get his Form 5 approved for a trip with them to CA, you d*mn betcha.

Regards,

Walt

rem870hunter
March 26, 2008, 08:54 PM
my brother-in-law doesn't own any firearms at all. none in any state and probably doesn't even have the id card needed here in nj to buy or own.

it looks to me like if my brother-in-laws friend wanted to bring any full auto firearms here to nj. he would have to fill out a form. wait for an approval that will possibly not come. even if he was going to bring them back home to florida when he leaves. simply trying to bring them here to nj is a very difficult thing to do,legally. and i sure as heck am not going to tell him to bring them here if it would be illegal.

si vis pacem, para b
March 26, 2008, 09:39 PM
I have family in the Eilizabeth / Newark area hence the reason I want my well oiled 1911 with me:eek: I was planning on driving, But my big Texas Truck has a very big appetite and the flight is almost the same cost of the travel expense so I will probably be flying. That will open the lid on a whole other can of worms.

shaggy
March 26, 2008, 10:29 PM
If your BIL owns those full-autos legally, then he should be aware that he can't take them to another state—even "just visiting"—without a Form 5 approval from the BATFE

Walt, unless things have drastically changed in the last few months I think you mean a form 5320.20, not a F5, for an individual transporting across state lines. F5 is temporary tax free transfer to a licensee for service/repairs. Regardless, the 5320.20 needs to be aproved by BATFE prior to transporting and the weapon must be legal at the destination (so a 5320.20 with a NJ as the destination would NOT be approved).

smenkhare
March 27, 2008, 05:47 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but does this mean that state law is overriding federal law?

is it not usually the other way around?

wjkuleck
March 27, 2008, 07:12 AM
Shaggy, I stand corrected. I have Form 5 (now 5320-10; hmm...were they once both the same :rolleyes:?) on the brain, as we (http://www.fulton-armory.com/) never could get a straight answer on whether one was needed to ship and NFA weapon to us for service.

From ATF.gov:

Moving Registered NFA Firearms Interstate

Individuals other than qualified Federal firearms licensees must obtain permission from ATF prior to temporarily or permanently moving a machine-gun, short-barreled shotgun, short-barreled rifle, or destructive device interstate. To obtain permission to move these firearms, please submit to ATF either a letter requesting permission to move them or an ATF Form 5320.20 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f532020.pdf), Application to Transport Interstate or Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms. This form is available at the ATF Internet website or may be obtained by contacting the NFA Branch. If you are submitting the request by letter, please include the:

• Name of registrant;
• The firearm(s);
• The current location of the firearm(s);
• The location to which the firearm(s) will be transported;
• The date(s) and means of transportation (car, plane, boat, etc.); and
• The reason the firearm is being moved.

Please also indicate in the letter whether: (1) the move is temporary or permanent; (2) the move will involve a transfer of the title; and (3) whether the possession of the firearm will violate local or State law at the destination. The ATF Form 5320.20 includes these requirements. Requests for interstate transportation will be denied by ATF if possession of the firearm at the destination will violate State or local law.

Registrants do not have to obtain permission from ATF to move a silencer or “any other weapon” interstate. However, if a registrant’s address for these types of firearms changes after registration with ATF, please notify the NFA Branch in writing of the new address, so the NFRTR can reflect the registrant’s correct address.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Regards,

Walt

wjkuleck
March 27, 2008, 07:14 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but does this mean that state law is overriding federal law?

The Federal law (see above) requires conformance with State laws.

Regards,

Walt

James K
March 27, 2008, 11:45 AM
Si Vis,

No, you can't legally take your handgun from Texas to New Jersey, even if you don't carry it while you are there. FOPA covers lawful transport of a firearm through states that have bans or restrictions AS LONG AS the gun is LEGAL TO POSSESS in both the state where the trip originates and the state where it terminates. In your case, the gun would not be legal to possess in NJ, so the FOPA requirements are not met, even for those states in between. As for transporting your gun on an airplane, the airline may well notify the NJ authorities that there is a gun in your luggage, and they will be waiting for you at the baggage claim.

Forget it. Leave the gun at home unless you feel that your need for a gun will be so great that you are willing to risk a prison term in order to have one.

Jim

wjkuleck
March 27, 2008, 11:56 AM
the airline may well notify the NJ authorities that there is a gun in your luggage, and they will be waiting for you at the baggage claim

And, if your connecting flight in Chicago is cancelled such that you have to claim your baggage, the Chicago cops will arrest you for having an firearm without an Illinois FOID, and if a handgun, for having a handgun in Chicago.

Yes, it's happened, recently.

Regards,

Walt

douglasschuckert
March 27, 2008, 01:21 PM
Ok.

As I understand it... A friend currently in FL that has some full autos (cool friend btw), and he wants to come visit you in NJ with his toys. You have land and permission for his toys.


You first need to find out if 'NFA' - National Firearms Act weapons are allowed in your state. (if allowed which ones). You can do this by contacting your local Sheriff's Department or the Chief Law Enforcement Officer's office OR YOUR LOCAL BATF&E Branch. Once this is done, and you have verbal permission from the police that a legally possessed fully automatic weapon is allowed, your friend needs to file a single form with the BATF&E. It's called a '5320.20' or Form20 - "Application to Transport Interstate or Temporarily Export Certain National Firearms Act (NFA) Weapons' (document # OMB No. 1140-0010 (10/31/2009)).

IF THE NJ STATE LAW SAYS THAT IT IS A NO-GO, THEN THE REST OF THIS POST DOES NOT MATTER.

Your friend has more than likely filled one of these out before. Most full auto owners have (I've filed several in the past. If your friend needs help, he can email me - douglasschuckert@hotmail.com).

Once this form comes back to your friend approved from the ATF, he can either fly to NJ with his item(s), or he can drive. He DOES NOT need to contact the State Police of each state between FL and NJ (matter of fact to keep people from looking for trouble, he should NOT… some people, who don’t know what they are talking about say that you do, but you don’t. THE ATF EVEN RECOMENDS THAT YOU DO NOT). If your friend gets pulled over, and IF the police ask if he has any weapons in the car, he needs to say 'YES' and show them the approved 5320.20 & 5320.4 (Form 4). As long as the weapon is NOT easily accessible and the ammo is stored completely different than the weapon (i.e gun in the car, ammo in the boot), he will be completely fine. The cops may or may not call their local ATF and run the registration paperwork, but your friend will not be harassed one bit. If he does get harassed, then the cops will have some serious and painful questions to answer by the US Justice Department and the BATF&E.

If he plans on flying, he can. Transporting/flying with NFA is the EXACT same procedures if you want to fly with say a hunting rifle. He packages the items up in a hard-shelled/lockable case. At the check-in counter he tells the airlines that he's flying with weapons. TSA takes the case along with your friend to a back room. He will open the case, and sign a form. This form goes in the case, and he locks the case in front of the TSA authorities. They take the case and check it in with the rest of the luggage. AT NO TIME DOES ANYONE other than him and the TSA that took your case to the baggage people know that case has a weapon in it. There will be NO outside markings AT ALL (matter of fact, that’s against federal law).

He will retrieve his locked case of goodies with the rest of his luggage when he arrives in NJ.

Then it’s to your property for some fun. Outside of these restrictions/procedures if all local and state laws are followed, then you will be “easy pesy lemon squeezy”.

The ATF 5320.5 or 'Form 5' IS NOT REQUIRED. One would use the Form 5 to temporarily send the NFA item to a smith for work (although NOT required) or to a Police Department for Demonstration Purposes or to a Class 2 or 3 dealer for consignment sale. The FORM 5 is for a "Temporary Transfer". Although not required, people generally ONLY file a Form 5 if they are sending it in to a C2 SOT or a gunsmith for repair work. The ATF does NOT consider this a Temporary Transfer, but they do recommend the form be filed just in case of any inspection and/or question. Its a 'piece of mind thing'. If your friend is NOT sending his weapon to a Dealer UNACCOMPANIED, he DOES NOT NEED TO FILE THE ATF FORM 5. HE CAN-NOT TRANSFER, EVEN ON A FORM 5 a weapon to you. You do not have an FFL or SOT and you are not a Law Enforcement Division. So the Form 5 is worthless in this case. The proper form is 5320.20 (but under no circumstance can you take possession of the item WITHOUT the weapons legal transferee being present (i.e THE OWNER).

I hope this helps.

Its actually a very simple thing. Really it is. I’ve done it so many times with my machine gun and suppressors it ain’t even funny.


TO reply to the previous post... IF THE WEAPONS ARE LEGAL IN NJ, THE AIRLINES WILL NOT, I REPEAT WILL NOT CALL THE COPS AND TELL THEM YOU HAVE A 'GUN' OR A MACHINE GUN IN YOUR LUGGAGE..

If you live in Florida and you're flying to Nevada for a gunshow, and you're bringing your machinegun. If you have an approved 5320.20 along with your 5320.4 (Form 4), and you get sent to Chicago for a layover/connecting flight and the leg from Chicago to to NV gets cancelled for whatever reason, you WILL NOT GET ARRESTED. NOONE KNOWS THAT THAT BAG HAS A MACHINE GUN IT IN BESIDES THE AIRLINES (AND ONLY HIGH-LEVEL PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION IN THEIR SYSTEM – even then it only shows up as a weapon, no particulars are kept). If you have to stay in Chicago overnight, then you get your luggage and place that particular bag in one of the AirPort Lockers, and take the rest of your luggage to the hotel with you. OR you can call the State Police and tell them what has happened and ask if they can store the weapon overnight for you (this will be a PITA as you will have to explain things about 500 times, and then getting the weapon back for your connecting flight will be another PITA – most of the time if you seem like you know what you’re talking about, the cops will not try to rass you. They will respect the fact that you’re going out of your way to obey the law).. Just get the airport locker... if you dont want to stay with your luggage at the airport overnight...

The reason the numb-nutt below got arrested is he left the airport with it.. Its not rocket science. Leave it in a locker at the airport. As long as you maintain positive control over the key to the locker, legally you've maintained positive control of the weapon. Personally I would stay with my gear in the airport, but that’s just me.

The statement below the last one is VERY CORRECT. YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE LEGAL TO POSSESS THE WEAPON AT BOTH THE DEPARTING AIRPORT AND THE ARRIVING AIRPORT (END DESTINATION). If the gun is legal in FL, but illegal in NJ, and you try to fly or drive with the weapon to that state, the Airline, if aware of the handgun or weapon will more than likely deny the luggage at the departing terminal (they are aware of the rules), or if they do not deny it to board, they could very potentially call the authorities in NJ. Typically if you are within the laws, you are protected by the Privacy Act (including the contents of your luggage). But if you are in violation of law, then they have a legal responsibility to report the incident & impropriator.

Moral of the story is this… KNOW WHAT NJ LAWS ARE AND DO NOT BREAK THEM. If you break the laws you will never own or be legally able to shoot another weapon for the rest of your life. You will face 10 year MANDATORY sentence in Club Fed with a MANDATORY $250,000.00 fine (if you are in violation of NFA Law) and about the same sentence (depending on state) for regular Type 1 Arms. To cap it all off, if your friend does not do his research he can also face prison time.

The ATF has been known to approve 5320.20 forms for end states and/or areas that do not allow NFA weapons.

If you absolutely want to see your friend’s full auto stuff, and NJ says NO, then take a trip to FL. Hell stop by Northern FL in October and we’ll all go shooting.

James K
March 28, 2008, 03:23 PM
Sounds good. Except that AFAIK no application for individual purchase of a machinegun or application to bring a machinegun into NJ will be approved. Period. As you say, the rest is irrelevant.

As to a handgun, you are correct as to the FOPA, but I strongly suggest you find out exactly how NJ and NY interpret it and what they do if police find a handgun in a traveller's car. It is not pleasant; the NJ State Police make the Nazi Gestapo look like nice guys. Of course the real bosses of the state carry guns all the time with no problem; a gun is considered a normal tool of their trade.

Jim

RsqVet
April 2, 2008, 04:18 AM
Folks the thought of full auto in NJ as a civilian is flipping roll around on the floor funny... not going to happen, no way no day, any way.... at liest not legally.

Visiting a class 3 friendly state, follow the rules and you would be fine... NJ is not class 3 friendly...

Does not matter what or who you are in another state, NJ has their rules / laws and getting caught up with a full auto piece in NJ will ensure that you get burried in the NJ prison system for a very long time.

Use to live there... I needed a card and a 75 dollar permit to buy a flipping revolver...

Bring a pound of crack or weed with you, you will be out of jail sooner.

As to a simple handgun, unless you have a NJ ID and Permit to purchase you are pushing your luck though a reasonable cop if you were otherwise compliant with the gun, might not make an issue out of it. If they were not though they could... so it all depends on how much you want to count on luck and discreshion in keeping your weapon and your butt out of jail.

James K
April 2, 2008, 10:55 AM
I understand that NJ law technically allows MG ownership with police permission, but that permission is NEVER given. Some years back, the late William E. Simon, former Secretary of the Treasury under Nixon and Ford, wanted to bring a presentation SMG into NJ. He was turned down flat; he took the case to federal court and lost.

Now this guy was a multimillionaire, about as respectable as it is possible to be, and he couldn't budge the anti-gun insanity in NJ. Yet, the real power in the state, the Mafia, can own any kind of gun they want, in any quantity. It may be illegal, but no NJ cop is crazy or suicidal enough to make an arrest. Go figure.

Jim