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SamHouston
March 23, 2008, 12:35 PM
Watching the Military channel this morning on Ranger Training it appeared one of the men carried a shotgun. They were practicing clearing rooms of buildings. Was this a shotgun I saw or some type of granade launcher ? If a shotgun, I assume there might be some advantage in close quarters.

cohoskip
March 23, 2008, 12:38 PM
Yep, they will get the job done in close quarters.

A friend of mine had to use one inside a building in Nam - blew out both his eardrums... :(

cavscout77
March 23, 2008, 12:42 PM
They use them for breaching doors for the most part. I am sure there are some that use them as a primary weapon, but not many.

10-96
March 23, 2008, 12:52 PM
Sure wish I had a SG in Iraq. Woulda been handy on convoys through urban areas, and perimeter duty, and TCN escorts. Maybe not as a primary weapon- but a couple on the team or one on the truck would have been nice.

hoytinak
March 23, 2008, 01:45 PM
Yep, it was prolly a 500....I've used one to breach many of buildings and vehicles while deployed.

Boris Bush
March 23, 2008, 02:59 PM
10-96

We had 3 shotguns per squad. Used mostly for breaching, and sometimes on BGs.

SamHouston
March 23, 2008, 09:48 PM
I assume it would be a 12 gauge. Would it be a slug or some type of buckshot?

Shorts
March 23, 2008, 09:50 PM
MAs & MPs at gate duty have them as well...I see them as I drive in.

hoytinak
March 23, 2008, 09:51 PM
I assume it would be a 12 gauge. Would it be a slug or some type of buckshot?

Yep, 12ga...I was issued 00 Buck.

Kenpo
March 24, 2008, 01:29 PM
I just finished House to House by David Bellavia (a pretty good read about the battle of Fallujah, by the way) and he refers many times to a friend of his (another NCO) who carries a Mossberg 500 through the entire book, using it to breach, but also, apparently as a primary weapon. I thought that was interesting.

Doc TH
March 24, 2008, 08:09 PM
Read Martha Raddatz' book "The Long Road Home".

tony pasley
March 24, 2008, 08:55 PM
Pump shotguns have been used since WW 1. They have been very usful to troops in close quarters and crowds.

Blue Duck
March 24, 2008, 10:29 PM
Some semi-auto shotguns were used also, by foreign countrys. Often it was a Browning A5. Also, I was visiting with a friend of my dad's, who served as an advisor in the eairly part of Nam, and his preferred weapon was a Browning A5 with buckshot. He said that at that time, some of the the guys were sending back home for their family members, friends, etc to purchase a shotgun and send it to them. He also told me that the shotgun was a better killer then the M16, but he carried both, as did most of the people in his group. They also relied heavely on dogs.

MLeake
March 25, 2008, 08:22 AM
US troops were issued Winchester pump guns, not sure if on a squad support level, but they used them for trench clearing.

They were effective enough that the Germans put out bounties on shotgunners.

Cheers,

M

Caeser23
March 25, 2008, 04:45 PM
we had 500s and 590s, 1 per vehicle, 95% in my posession :D regular 00 buck

USMCGrunt
March 25, 2008, 05:41 PM
When I was in the Marines from 88-92, we had a few old M-1200s that were on their last leg and being replaced by Mossberg M590s. We also had a couple cut-down 870s with the top-folding stocks for VIP protection details. These days in the Air Force, the most common shotgun has been the M870 but it is being phased out with the newer M870 modular combat shotgun. The new shotgun is pretty much a Remington 870 but with more of the "tacti-cool" bells and whistles on it.

Deaf Smith
March 25, 2008, 10:05 PM
I understand in Iraq the Arab terrorist are plum scared of the 12 guage.

Allstar
March 25, 2008, 10:06 PM
Yes the Moss 500 is what is carried, it is used in clearing stateside, but usually only carried by breachers deployed.

loudes13
March 25, 2008, 10:55 PM
Both weapons in one

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/img125-5854-xm26shotgun7fv.jpg

SamHouston
March 26, 2008, 12:44 PM
That's a cool gun & the ultimate in Home Defense. I've wondered if any manufacturer made something similar for the civilian market

I assume the shotgun barrel would be to short.

Jason_G
March 26, 2008, 04:50 PM
Both weapons in one



That's a cool gun & the ultimate in Home Defense. I've wondered if any manufacturer made something similar for the civilian market

I assume the shotgun barrel would be to short.
Yeah, and the one in the pic has the XM26LSS, which AFIK is still considered experimental or might have even been scrapped by now, I don't know.

There is one that has an M4 with a Remington 870 (IIRC) mounted in the same configuration, called the "Masterkey". Made by KAC I believe, but I might be wrong. I'm not sure what's legally involved in owning a shortened barrel, but an 870/AR-15 combo could be feasible, albeit heavy and cumbersome, I guess.

Jason

tony pasley
March 26, 2008, 05:20 PM
A few years ago they had one on the market I forget who made it but it was an ar on top and 12 ga. semi-auto on bottom.

AmesJainchill
March 27, 2008, 09:12 AM
I'm not sure what's legally involved in owning a shortened barrel, but an 870/AR-15 combo could be feasible, albeit heavy and cumbersome, I guess.

Probably an AOW.

20nickels
March 27, 2008, 09:30 AM
IMHO anything more than a single shot 12 or 20ga attached is too much/unwieldy. The good news is that simplifies things.

Technosavant
March 27, 2008, 10:43 AM
The Remington 870 MCS (Modular Combat System) (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm) is pretty close to what some of you all are describing. It can be used as a standalone shotgun or can be stripped down and slung underneath an AR. It uses a mag tube and not a box mag though.

IdahoG36
March 28, 2008, 04:45 PM
I understand in Iraq the Arab terrorist are plum scared of the 12 guage.

For good reason. 00Buck is devastating at close ranges, and in my opinion makes a better weapon for close quarter combat than a short rifle caliber carbine or a handgun.

ISP2605
March 28, 2008, 05:43 PM
In the 1990s we had 870s on my base. Some of them were getting pretty ragged so in about 1998 I ordered 4 replacement shotguns from the USAF. I received 4 Winchester Model 12 that looked like new. But within a week the SkyCops had them dinged up already.

lefteye
March 28, 2008, 07:38 PM
For Saigon and suburbs in '69-'70, I generally carried a Win. '97, an M-16, and a Colt Detective Special .38 in the Jeep. Having grown up with '97s in the family, it was comfortable. Today it is a safe full of 870s and grandpa's '97. Very persuasive firearms between handgun and rifle ranges.

mc5aw
March 28, 2008, 08:31 PM
Speaking on topic to anyone with knowledge/experience, were flechette rounds used heavily with combat issued SGs?

hoytinak
March 28, 2008, 08:33 PM
Speaking on topic to anyone with knowledge/experience, were flechette rounds used heavily with combat issued SGs?

I've been on 5 depoyments with the 82nd over the past 12 years and all we used in our shotguns was 00 buck.

ChewToy
April 4, 2008, 04:04 PM
2 3/4" 00 Buck is the primary SG round in the AF as well. But when we have to do detainee ops we use several different types of less than lethal rounds. I fired the M870 for the first time on 1 April after 10 1/2 years of service. The only reason is I'm part of the team that responds to air craft crashes adn there are alot of bear up here in AK.

Scattergun Bob
April 4, 2008, 11:14 PM
I'm not sure about heavy use, But in the late 60s Some of the Brown Water Navy units used them in their m-37 scatterguns, I found a m-12 with a MMC deverter and stuck with #4 buck.

The flechettes sure seemed to extend the range of the guns, they also seemed to penetrate the wood hulls of sampans and junks well.

Good Luck, Be Safe

goColt
April 5, 2008, 09:32 AM
I thought I had read that some of the door breaching rounds were something other than simple 00 buck. Can't remember exactly what they were supposed to be though. Fl├ęchettes maybe?

Scattergun Bob
April 5, 2008, 10:20 AM
go Colt,

door breaching is done with compressed powder projectiles that disengrate upon impact, usually in slug form. The idea is that it will destroy the door hardware and nothing else, IT does not always work that way and door breaches are considered lethal rounds.

Flechettes might breach a door? but I don't thing so, however being mild or hardened steel they would also rebound or reflect into other targets, not really a good idea.

Flechette are basically force projection for scatterguns.

Good Luck, Be Safe

Boris Bush
April 5, 2008, 02:05 PM
goColt

We used regular old Winchester OO Buck 9 pellet to breach doors. We breached hundreds of doors Exterior and interior with that load. We never had a problem and it worked double duty if it had to be applied as an offensive weapon once in.....

Scattergun Bob
April 5, 2008, 05:46 PM
Boris,

OK, good luck with that, that 00 hurts bad when it flattens and bounces back off a hardened strike plate. My state was not OK with 00 used in this maner.

Good Luck, Be safe

Boris Bush
April 5, 2008, 06:12 PM
Scattergun Bob


I was shocked when I found out we used good ole OO buck also. I have seen so many doors breached with it that I now believe that it would be an oddity if such a wound would happen. My battalion had not even a scratch as a result of the use of OO buck.

With everything else going on around me I learned to not worry about it. The extreme remote chance I could be injured in that manner was far less likely than what the people inside could have done to me..........

Scattergun Bob
April 5, 2008, 08:46 PM
Thanks for the update, as you travel in harms way please remember there are those of us whom wish you well. I spent time neare the bridges at Basara many many years ago, Sand truly sucks.

Good Luck, Be Safe as you can, Bob

Boris Bush
April 5, 2008, 11:58 PM
Scattergun Bob

I just noticed you are in WA! I just happen to be in WA also, you could probably guess where I am ;)

Maybe a get together someday.............

Scattergun Bob
April 6, 2008, 12:40 PM
AS LONG AS I GET TO BUY LUNCH.

Good Luck, Be as Safe as you can

BreacherUp!
April 7, 2008, 02:33 AM
For breaching purposes, you only need attack the weakest part of the locking mechanism. Which typically is the cylinder and cup plate. 00 buck will do fine. You just don't see it CONUS b/c of the possible injuries to innocents behind the door, hence breaching rounds. But, a breaching round will kill you just as good.

Tamara
April 7, 2008, 03:43 AM
Some semi-auto shotguns were used also, by foreign countrys.

And by this country (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2006/10/remington-model-11-very-belligerent_29.html). :cool:

A few years ago they had one on the market I forget who made it but it was an ar on top and 12 ga. semi-auto on bottom.

It was the Crossfire (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=90497095). Actually a pump .223 over a pump 12ga. scattergun. Possibly the only weapon that could malfunction with two calibers at once. Plus it was heavy and insanely awkward, and the designers couldn't pronounce "ergonomics" if they tried. Save your money.

Scattergun Bob
April 8, 2008, 10:28 AM
I know about locksets and strikes, have not heard the term cup plate please tell me more!

Thanks for the reminder about CONUS and liability, and then the rest of the real world. I do not remember breaching in the republic of, must of happened, just don't recall.

Picked up a nasty little war wound in the leg some 25 or so years ago from bounce back, they guessed, a metal stud in a commercial building flatted and returned a OO right back at me, a nice gash a little blood fountaining. HENCE, the warning I posted above. It is considered "bad form" in my gaggle of friends and a fellow rejects to shoot yourself regardless of the "reasons". I took some hits in the local paper, Want adds: need to sew up duty pants QUICKLY, call stupid at ######.

Good Luck & Be Safe

BreacherUp!
April 8, 2008, 05:28 PM
Scattergun,
The cup is the area that accepcts that locking cylinder, the cup plate is the metal around the cup. A typical cylinder will only insert about an inch or less into the cup. That is all that is holding the door. Attacking this will open the door with ease.

Scattergun Bob
April 8, 2008, 06:37 PM
I understand, we are talking about the same parts, using different names. In the Door industry the thing that screws on the door jam to accept the cylinder lock end is referred to as the strike plate. the portion of the cylinder that enters the hole bored into the door jamb is called the strike. Same stuff just different nomenclature.

In that case, Baldwin hardware makes #3 commercial armored strike plates Strikes jamb plates and door panels as well as mortised lock sets. These are for use secure areas. Our weapon storage, Ammo storage and exterior range doors were armored in such a way. Most bank doors are also, to conform to commercial code. They WOUD BE resistant to shotgun breaching.

So I repeat "good luck with that, that 00 hurts bad when it flattens and bounces back off a hardened strike plate."

For that matter, our standard Royal powdered compressed metal breacher would vaporize without getting the job done. Hardened jambs and armor very tough.

If you like you can check it out with San Jose police, they have had a couple of failures, thankfully no blood.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Scattergun Bob
April 8, 2008, 09:19 PM
your talking about the deadbolt! could not see it with your nomenclature. OK so you attack the deadbolt at the cyl asembly, you now have to attack the door handle with is also locked. It is still a big problem if it is hardened, or door plated.

Maximus856
April 10, 2008, 05:59 PM
From what one of my Sgts. told me (and 0351 assaultman) he carried a benelli. Every vehicle was equiped with a 12 guage be it a benelli or 590.

-Max.

Boris Bush
April 10, 2008, 06:10 PM
Scattergun Bob


When we run into a breach that a 12 gauge will not work on, we have other methods in our bag of goodies :D

Getting inside is never much of an issue for us and the shotty is needed on about 1/3 of breaches.

Scattergun Bob
April 10, 2008, 06:44 PM
You bet, I think you guy's use great restraint, and quit frankly I do not care about what happens the folks behind the door in that part of the world you operate in.


I was reading arrogance from another member, not you and returning same. """just being my normal butt head""""""""


SITREP between me and you stays the same.

any question at all, press the trigger.
Do what you have to do, to come home
If you get out here in the sticks, lunch is on me.

"as you travel in harms way please remember there are those of us whom wish you well." Good Luck & Be Safe

Doc TH
April 10, 2008, 10:40 PM
During the communist insurrection in Malaya in the early 1950s, British troops patrolling in the jungles came to favor the use of shotguns by the point man. They concluded in that environment the shotgun was superior to the Sten, M-1 carbine, and the Australian Owen SMG.

BreacherUp!
April 11, 2008, 06:21 PM
I was reading arrogance from another member, not you and returning same. """just being my normal butt head""""""""

Hope you're not referring to me. No arrogance was displayed or meant by me.

Scattergun Bob
April 11, 2008, 07:16 PM
Nope, this was the end of a conversation started on another thread. Being new to the internet forum media form I sometimes forget that the "world is watching" sorry, I will do better, enjoyed our conversation even though I got confused.

I really screwed up on the SWAT thread, I need to get smarter faster about how the game is played!!! I believe in what I said, just said it to the wrong group. A common joke afloat in country was that the average time to WIA for a door gunner was 2 days. Thank God they are only shooting electrons, Breacher, this FNG would have died in 2 hours.

Good Luck and Be Safe

tc556guy
April 21, 2008, 11:59 PM
Currently carrying, among other things, a Mossy 500.

SamHouston
April 22, 2008, 09:58 PM
TCGuy, Take care of that gun & yourself. Thanks for what you're doing, we all here appreciate you.

Capt Charlie
April 22, 2008, 11:33 PM
TCGuy, Take care of that gun & yourself. Thanks for what you're doing, we all here appreciate you.

Normally, I absolutely hate "+1's", but in this case.....

+1 ;)

Desert01
April 23, 2008, 08:38 AM
Slightly edited from it's orginal form:

The Combat Shotgun in the Infantry Brigade (http://pro-patria.us/MILSHOTGUN.mht)

Army Qualification Standards (Modified) (http://pro-patria.us/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/SHOTGUN_Qual_Article4.7933747.mht)

Just about every thing you want to know about Mil use of the shotgun.

Primary Service shotgun is a 18 1/2" Mossberg 500 for the Army, and a 18 1/2" 590 for the USMC, both 5+1 with bead sights. MOST non-SOF 870's in service are pushing 30 years since they were procured. SOF has a mixture of 870's 500's, 590's and the 20" 590.

The Benelli M-4/M-1014 is also in service with the USMC in fairly small numbers. I believe the Air Force is using 870's as is the Coast Guard.

CGSteve8718
April 23, 2008, 09:13 AM
About flechettes, like someone else said, I read they were experimented with very briefly in the 60s but proved not to be ineffective to the point of uselessness.

The other story was that they were so effective that they were considered "cruel, and unusual" if you will, and were not allowed to be used on other people.

Go figure right?

One of the earlier posters seemed to have done convoy security in Iraq and wished he had a few shotguns. That was what I did in Iraq as well, and we had a few shotguns. Somehow they were left over, and somehow, we got them. There were 2 Mossberg 500's and 1 Benelli M4. They made vehicle searches a little bit easier, but really, I felt we didn't really need them, because of our role. I wanted them to go to our PTT because it would serve them and their needs much better than ours. I spoke up, but I was only an E-4, an NCO by USMC standards, but still a peon in reality.

An interesting story from way back was about the infamous "trench gun" and the tactics employed with it. I'm not sure if this was WWI or WWII, but the Germans definitely feared this weapon. From what I read, it had the ability to "slam fire", and the tactic was to rush in the trench with a fire team all armed with trench guns lined up in a single row rapidly "slam firing" all their rounds and alternating with the next guy and so on right down the line. By the time the last guy expended his ammunition, the first guy would have been reloaded already and it starts again.

I don't know the veracity behind this, but it was an interesting read nonetheless. It's got to be true, because if it's from WWII or WWI, you just can't make that stuff up. ;)

Donovan655
April 24, 2008, 10:03 PM
An interesting story from way back was about the infamous "trench gun" and the tactics employed with it. I'm not sure if this was WWI or WWII, but the Germans definitely feared this weapon.

They complained about it famously. They lobbied (the League of Nations?) to outlaw it as an instrument of warfare.

Nev C
April 24, 2008, 10:10 PM
Some info on the Winchester Trench Gun:
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/Winchester_M97_Trench_Gun.html

tc556guy
April 26, 2008, 05:05 AM
We had a few of those trench shotties in our arms room right up til a few years ago, along with some M14s from who-knows-where. One day they just shipped them off. I'd hate to think they got chopped up.

Maximus856
April 26, 2008, 01:40 PM
Got to handle the Benelli super 90 yesterday at our armory. I never got to see one, but we have about 5 in our armory. Really liked how the stock collapsed. Being that I'm in a intel unit (real boring), I was told we use them for security pretty much..

-Max

nemoaz
April 26, 2008, 04:47 PM
They complained about it famously. They lobbied (the League of Nations?) to outlaw it as an instrument of warfare.If I had to face an enemy at close range and had t he option of demanding he be armed with a bolt action rifle versus a shotgun, I would do the same thing!