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LiveFast
March 19, 2008, 07:37 PM
So I went through the insane process in NYS to get my pistol permit. Recieved it two month's ago. I've bought two guns as well already.. (GF is gonna kill me ).. and I'm still confused to if I can carry "legally". Btw, my county is fairly lienient.. we have a great county clerk that can get things process incredibly fast. I bought a gun the other day and went and saw her and I picked it up that night.

My permit says "Licensed to carry pistol is hereby granted:" My name, picture, address, job, judge signature is on there. But on the top, it say's "State of New York, County of Rensselaer" "Hunting and Target" are underneath it.

I've been told you can get two types in NY: This one, and Premise only. They dont issue unrestricted carries. But someone told me they are "Administrative" restrictions, I cant go to jail or anything.

I've read the stories about people just putting targets in their car, or saying they belong to a 24/7 club when they get questioned by LEO's.

My boss carries all the time, and I believe his say's the same thing. Can someone clear this up for me? Should I write a letter to the judge in a year asking for the restrictions lifted? I just dont want to jeopordize losing my guns.

Thanks everyone.

Johnc
March 19, 2008, 07:56 PM
The hunting and target restrictions imprinted on your license mean just that. They are restrictions. It is the intention of the issuing authority to restrict your license for the purposes of hunting and target use. If you violate that restriction, you will be violating their policies. You can risk revocation. As I understand it, your area is much more gun friendly than mine (downstate). I wonder if you can obtain an unrestricted license. Did you inquire?

Some useful information can be learned from these web sites.


http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

http://handgunlaw.us (http://handgunlawus.com)

Also, remember, your license is no good in NYC.

Wuchak
March 19, 2008, 08:28 PM
I went through the process for the NY permit when I was there. The restrictions are between you and the issuing Judge. From a law enforcement point of view you have a permit. They are not concerned with the restrictions and violating them carries no criminal or civil penalties but the Judge can revoke your permit if word gets back to him that you were stopped and obviously not on your way to or from the range or the woods. Most Judges consider all outdoor activities: hiking, backpacking, etc. to be included in the hunting restriction. You cannot just say you are part of a 24/7 club, you need to go join one. There are several in the area, gun-ho-a, in Schenectady is a good one but I believe there is a multi-year waiting list for membership. Once you join one put a range bag in the car with targets, eye and ear protection, and some ammo and leave it there. Then you are always on your way to the range. Not from the range since that's easy to confirm. I had my permit in Fulton county which was also very CCW friendly. The standard was that after you had your permit for one year you went back to see the Judge and asked to have the restrictions removed. Anyone I know who did this had them lifted. After a year you have proven yourself responsible.

Good luck and congrats on making it through the muddled NY process. Since I left NY I have obtained my Utah non-resident permit and my KS resident permit and the effort for both combined was 1/2 what it was to get it in NY. Of course here in KS you don't need a permit to own a handgun, just to carry concealed. If you want one for hunting, hiking, target practice, etc. you just go to the store and buy it.


In reading through the NY penal code covering handgun permits no place does it say that you have to tell an officer that you are a permit holder or that you are carrying. Some states require to you to tell the police when you are stopped e.g. for speeding, that you have a handgun. Since you are not required to disclose it you shouldn't if you are carrying and have restrictions on your permit. http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS See penal law section 400

LiveFast
March 20, 2008, 07:04 AM
Thank you both for all of your help. It's nice to find NY specific people who can chime in on my issue. I was just going to call the clerk to find out what is necessary to recieve an unrestricted permit in our county..

Musketeer
March 20, 2008, 07:15 AM
I concur with the previous posters on this issue.

In NY it is always good to utilize deep concealment with your permit. Tuckables are an excellent idea.

LiveFast
March 20, 2008, 07:29 AM
This looks like the exact excerpt I need:

7. License: form. Any license issued pursuant to this section shall,
except in the city of New York, be approved as to form by the
superintendent of state police. A license to carry or possess a pistol
or revolver shall have attached the licensee's photograph, and a coupon
which shall be removed and retained by any person disposing of a firearm
to the licensee. Such license shall specify the weapon covered by
calibre, make, model, manufacturer's name and serial number, or if none,
by any other distinguishing number or identification mark, and shall
indicate whether issued to carry on the person or possess on the
premises,

I did a google search but couldn't come up with much for advanced pistol training in NYS, specifically the upstate area. Anyone know of any?

nicknitro71
March 20, 2008, 07:58 AM
I have a NYS permit that also states Hunting and Target. As pointed out if you are concealing with it (other than NYC) you're not braking any laws but the issuing judge might revoke the permit.

There is a solution...not all county judges put the "Hunting and Target" restriction and there are a few who think that the restriction is actually a violation of the permit itself. I have a few friends who go the restriction taken away from a different judge than the issuing one.

A few years back, Delaware County used to issue permits with no restrictions...

nicknitro71
March 20, 2008, 08:04 AM
If you cannot get your restrictions lifted you could join a sportsmen club that allows 24 hour of shooting. Then if you get stoped by a cop while concealing you just state that you are on your way to the club to target shoot.

LiveFast
March 20, 2008, 08:10 AM
Only problem with the above, is aparently there is a year+ waiting list to get into these 24hr gun clubs. Anymore info on judges that would remove the restrictions of the permit?

Musketeer
March 20, 2008, 08:16 AM
Be happy you are not on Long Island. The Suffolk County Police (a non-elected official who is in charge of permits...) requires documented proof of multiple threats and attempts made upon your life with identification of the party responsible... What a joke. If I have multiple serious threats and attempts made against my life, documented, and we all know who is responsible then why is he still loose?

wnycollector
March 20, 2008, 09:03 AM
I have an unrestricted NYS permit issued in Niagara County (one of the most 2nd ammendment friendly counties in NYS!!!). I have good friend that had a restricted permit like yours get his restriction lifted in Erie county after a few years (~3...but cant be sure). Like most of the other posters have said alot of guys have a range bag in their trunks...just in case they are carrying while "on the way to the range"!!

Rinspeed
March 20, 2008, 01:13 PM
I even asked the clerk at the sheriffs office and she said it was a big gray area. In my county they do not put on the license "Hunting and Target" but they used to put "personal protection", which they no longer will put on them. The gray area starts because according to NY state law if there are any restrictions they must be listed on the permit. So I'm not really sure if I can carry all the time or not.

ViperJon
March 20, 2008, 01:52 PM
Don't ask don't tell.

Musketeer
March 20, 2008, 01:59 PM
What your local issuing authority will NOT tell you if they place restrictions on your NY permit.

http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/FAQs/Firearms/Permits.cfm

Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?

The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.

Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license.

jrm
March 20, 2008, 04:13 PM
A point to keep in mind...

If the "24 hour club" you join is 5 miles west of your home, and you get stopped 5 miles east of your home, it is a real stretch to state you arwe on your way there.

Also note that different counties have different rules regarding how hunting/target restrictions are regulated and enforced. The very tight Suffolk county restriction is a great example. If you get stopped outside of your own county, you are likely to be judged by that county's own code/restrictions. Especially if you are nowhere near that 24 hour range. :)

Yes, I fully understand that the violation is administrative. However, the county still has the power to revoke. Once they do, I think it very unlikely that you will get a new license for a while, if at all. Without a license, then you have to get rid of all your handguns. Any carry at all without that license is then a felony. For me, too much of a risk. YMMV.

ViperJon
March 20, 2008, 05:41 PM
While all of the above is true, and I would not advocate anyone carrying in a manner that would violate the "restrictions" on their license there are some assumptions to be made. First, you would actually have to be caught carrying the handgun. Now how would that happen? Have you been frisked lately? I'm almost 50, and have never been frisked in my entire life. New York State law does not require you to inform a cop that you are carrying if you are stopped on a traffic violation. Accidently flash the gun at the local coffee shop? Very careless. Concealed does mean concealed right? So let's say John Q. Public spots the gun, and gives a **** enough to call the cops. (Unlikely, he probably thinks you are a cop). The cop answering the call stops you, and you explain you have a license for the gun. Now it's a discretionary call on his part. Obviously your not a criminal, they tend to NOT have licenses. So he may just send you on your way and say go home, or he could push the issue if he's in a bad mood and file the report. Then you have a big problem. But IMO a lot of things have to go wrong on your part to get to that point.

Again, I would never advocate carrying a handgun around with you on a "restricted" license.

FrontSight
March 20, 2008, 07:34 PM
In NYC, the process of getting one is SUCH a hassle, that I would not want to ever have it revoked even if it just meant that I would have to go thru the same process to get it back. It's that bad.

Even worse, tho, is the fact that you will probably NEVER get it back. And that, my friends, would suck so much I can't even fathom it. Then I'd have to move.

And selling my house would be just as much hassle as getting a new permit.

What I'm trying to say is that they make it almost worth getting robbed and your wallet taken rather than getting caught carrying with a restricted license. Raped or murdered is another story, of course...

Johnc
March 21, 2008, 07:53 AM
The Suffolk County Police (a non-elected official who is in charge of permits...) requires documented proof of multiple threats and attempts made upon your life with identification of the party responsible... What a joke. If I have multiple serious threats and attempts made against my life, documented, and we all know who is responsible then why is he still loose?

Musketeer you are correct. Further on this subject, even with the documented proof of the attempt(s) on you life and with a court order of protection and a police report of the incident(s) in addition to an arrest of the BG, expect opposition.

That is not here-say, that is from personal experience. BTW, that is AFTER being a license holder in two counties for over 15 years without incident.

LiveFast
March 21, 2008, 12:32 PM
Viper, that's pretty much the mindset I'd have. I'm upstate btw, not NYC.

I called the clerk last night asking what is required for the restrictions to be lifted. She called me back today, but I missed her call. She left a VM saying she would call me Monday, as she was out of the office the rest of the day.

cnjaxx
March 21, 2008, 12:47 PM
I lived in Suffolk County for most of my life. The process that I went to to obtain a pistol permit borderd on unconstitional. During the investigation the SCPD even went through my neighborhood and asked my neighbors humiliating questions about me such as "do I beat my wife".

For you to get a ligitimate full carry in NY is almost imposible.

I have since moved to South Carolina, where they don't have a problem issueing a full consealed carry permit to Upright citizens. In fact I had mine in a couple of months after application. And the myth of increased crime is BS.

jrm
March 21, 2008, 05:37 PM
During the investigation the SCPD even went through my neighborhood and asked my neighbors humiliating questions about me such as "do I beat my wife".


Hmmm... I have nothing to compare the process to. However, I was pleasantly surprised with it.

The officer who interviewed me was professional and polite. There was a mix-up with the time - the appointment was 10:30, she called my house at 10:15 asking where I was for my 10am. Fortunately, I had pulled into the parking lot 10 minutes early. I think that "mix-up" was staged to make me off balance and defensive, but it wasn't that big a deal. The benefit was that the officer spoke with my wife and got the "do you know he is applying" question out of the way.

The interview lasted about 5 minutes. Most of the time was doing the fingerprints.

Two of my four required affidavits arrived by the time of my interview. I was told that all they use is two, so not to worry about the other arriving. I was given the impression that as long as the background check came back fine (i.e. I didn't lie on the application) the license was coming.

The SCPD, to my knowledge, never contacted anyone. At most, they may have called a reference to verify it's authenticity.

They have 6 months to answer - I received by permit in the mail in about 4.

My wife is going through the same process now. Was just as easy, but seems like it might take a little longer for the permit to come. Again, no one we know of has been contacted, and certainly no embarrassing questions have been asked.

Yes, the policy of no CCW sucks big time. But the process itself was so much simpler and less hassle than I imagined.

Again, I have nothing to compare it to, but I couldn't imagine it being easier (quicker, yes, but not easier).

cnjaxx
March 21, 2008, 06:14 PM
At the time I obtained my licens(1985), they were really nice at Yapank. But when my neighbors came to me and told me about the questions that they were asked, during the investigation, that kinda got my goat.

GP357
March 27, 2008, 09:44 PM
Don't know if this is relevant, but anyone know what the "hunting endorsemnt" from NYC PD is worth in upstate NY?

Johnc
March 28, 2008, 11:04 AM
Don't know if this is relevant, but anyone know what the "hunting endorsemnt" from NYC PD is worth in upstate NY?




If I understand your question , I assume you have a target license issued by 1 PP and want to know if their hunting endorsement works for Upstate NY? If that is your question, then the answer I believe is yes. You can use it to hunt upstate if you have a valid hunting license. I would check with 1 PP to make sure. I know that you can't use it to hunt in Central Park. Or at 7Th and 56Th.:rolleyes:

Desert01
March 28, 2008, 11:35 AM
Live Fast,

The Albany area isn't much on CCW pistol permits. When one of my friends moved there from Ft. Drum he had to give up his unrestricted Jefferson county permit(which he had for over 10 years). You permit could be revoked for carring concealed so keep it in mind.

As for training there is MDTS (http://www.mdtstraining.com/faq-home.htm) in the utica area you could try.

smokein
March 28, 2008, 08:40 PM
some of you guys are crazy.. LOL.. There is a reason that county issues a "hunting and target only" wich only allows you to have it in the car with you while traveling to and from hunting/range.. most LEO's will certainly not like to findout you have one loaded, let alone on your body..

To the OP: A quick call to Joyce is the key to resolving this. Trust me, she has all the info you need.. Talking with her and reading the actual laws are a much better source of legal info..

BTW - Last I knew Mcgrath was fine with "Unrestricted" once you have had the H&T and taken the advanced class..

crowbeaner
March 28, 2008, 08:56 PM
I had an unrestricted CCL from an upstate county for years. If you keep your nose clean for 18 months you may be able to have the conditional restrictions lifted by the issuing judge, or another judge that issues. The restrictions are the machinations of the judge's discretion. The restrictions are just the judges way of showing his/her power to you who dare to go through the process. A neighboring county had a real jerk for an issuing judge for years, and he was finally disbarred; the judges that succeeded him were much more lenient toward the gun owning public. Take some good advice from the voice of experience; stay on the butt smooching good side of your significant other; all it takes is for her to say that she's afraid of you and your permit and guns are history like right now, you dig? All it takes is a DV complaint whether founded or not and they yank your stuff. And you NEVER get it back.

jrm
March 29, 2008, 12:59 AM
some of you guys are crazy.. LOL.. There is a reason that county issues a "hunting and target only" wich only allows you to have it in the car with you while traveling to and from hunting/range.. most LEO's will certainly not like to findout you have one loaded, let alone on your body..


This contradicts what I have received from reliable sources... the gun club I belong to, a SCPD officer who is knowledgeable on the topic. The gun shop owner where I buy my pistols also told me the same thing with an ATF agent standing there nodding her head. That is - when traveling to/from the range (i.e. in accordance with the restrictions of your hunting/target permit) that permits acts as a full concealed carry. In other works, you can have your pistol loaded and concealed on your person.

I cannot find anything in the law or Suffolk County rule booklet that contradicts this. I am no expert on the topic, so feel free to point out any reference to prove me wrong.

Keep in mind, however, that this "CCW loophole" is not all it seems. The ranges that I know of are cold - so where are you going to unload before you enter the range? Also, according to current SCPD rules, you can't stop between home and range - so technically, you can only carry in your car and the range's parking lot.

smokein
March 29, 2008, 09:02 AM
This contradicts what I have received from reliable sources... the gun club I belong to, a SCPD officer who is knowledgeable on the topic. The gun shop owner where I buy my pistols also told me the same thing with an ATF agent standing there nodding her head.

I know how your feeling.. I have several friends who are in LEO in Upstate NYS, none of which really knew the difference between the permits I had. I could never get a straight answer. A week before I left NY my truck was broken into in Albany. When the officer arrived he immediatly started going through my truck (i didnt think he was gonna search like a drug bust), anyway I told him about the Glock in my center console and had my permit in hand, he read it several times, looked at me with a blank stare and said "does this mean you can carry a gun on you?" -- NO KIDDING :rolleyes:

The way I see it, if it became a question, they would check with the issuer, your county judge. Hence playing it safe when not having an unrestricted.

GP357
March 30, 2008, 02:25 PM
If I understand your question , I assume you have a target license issued by 1 PP and want to know if their hunting endorsement works for Upstate NY? If that is your question, then the answer I believe is yes. You can use it to hunt upstate if you have a valid hunting license. I would check with 1 PP to make sure. I know that you can't use it to hunt in Central Park. Or at 7Th and 56Th.

Just trying to see if anyone with a NYC Resident Permit (no more target permits in NYC) has ever had a problem with this hunting endorsement. 1PP won't give me a stright answer. Like, if I go upstate to hunt, can I stay overnight or is the endorsement only godd for the trip there, hunt, come back same day. Anyone deal with this?

xjasilx
April 4, 2008, 07:21 AM
Hello All,

I have posted on these very forums before about my headaches dealing with NY state and in particular Erie County. Over time I have just come to accept the...shall we say..."eccentricities" of NY state. Luckily, the problems seem to be county-by-county, so there is always hope to have a more rural judge take care of restricted license problems.

I will apologize up front for the semi-hijack, but I am being relocated to Albany NY for work and I noticed that some of the posters here are from that area. I do not know the area very well and am wondering what you think the best gunshops in the area are. I am very spoiled by having Buffalo Gun Center only a ten minute drive from my current location, which is and has always been a wonderful place to do business.

Any suggestions, good experiences, or places to avoid?

Thanks in advance,

Jasil

Tomcat017
April 21, 2008, 11:55 AM
jrm: you're right. On your way to and from the range, your Suffolk permit allows you to carry concealed. I was told by a PO in the license division that no reasonable officer, in light of past inclusions in the handbook, would give you a super hard time if you were stopped for gas or a quite bite on the way back from the range. That being said, I still woulnd't try it. But directly to and from the range--no problem.

tc556guy
April 22, 2008, 08:50 AM
Most NYS officers in my area will break your balls if you aren't being stupid. If you are being stupid, a concealed carry permit isn't going to give you any extra consideration.

Wuchak
April 22, 2008, 10:49 AM
Your permit allows you to carry concealed legally anyplace outside of NYC and those buildings listed as off limits in the law, period. The restrictions carry no legal weight but are part of the contract between the permit holder and the issuing Judge. Violation of them can result in revocation of the permit but someone has to know that you are carrying and notify the police. Then the police have to tell the Judge and he might call you in for a meeting with him. If you are stopped for speeding or questioning by the police you do not have to tell them you have a handgun on you. And if you are following rule one of concealed carry, "Concealed means concealed", then you have no worries.

You can be anyplace and claim you are on your way to the range, or you were. I headed to the range officer but my wife called and said she wasn't feeling well and I'm going to the store to get her some medicine. If you are on your way to the range you can stop and get coffee, or ammo, or whatever. Remember you are not breaking any law, you are violating the arbitrary restrictions the Judge put on your permit. When my friend and I got our permits in the same county we each were assigned to a different Judge. The one he went to told him not to leave his gun in the car if he stopped. She wanted it in his control. The Judge I went to said to leave it in the car if it could be secured and you could remove it without attracting attention.

adk713
August 17, 2011, 04:14 AM
In Essex and Franklin county, authorities almost exclusively issue concealed carry permits. Probably, the easiest counties in NY in terms of gun laws.

youngunz4life
August 17, 2011, 04:42 AM
I believe Wuchak has it correct in his entire post.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf (very top right in red)

also to further one of his point, you are not required to notify a LEO that you have a weapon on you or in your vehicle. If he asks you about though, do not lie. Not only is that illegal, you are just better off being honest if questioned. Always have your license and CCW permit w/you while driving also.

here is original website if you want to learn more: www.handgunlaw.us

federali
August 17, 2011, 04:25 PM
Permitees in NYS should know that their permits are valid throughout the state except in NYC. You would need a separate permit for the city. Long Island residents who must pass through the city to get upstate may do so with the unloaded gun in a locked box and not readily accessible. The trip must be uninterrupted. You can't stop to pick up your buddy, or for gas or for coffee.

I'm retired law enforcement so I have the coveted "carry" license without restrictions. For a time, I also needed the separate NYC license but this hassle was eliminated for retirees and my Nassau County license is now valid in NYC.

NYS is an anti-gun state like MD, MA, NJ, CA and IL. I don't see any relaxation of carry privileges here in my remaining lifetime.

maestro pistolero
August 17, 2011, 05:52 PM
NYS is an anti-gun state like MD, MA, NJ, CA and IL. I don't see any relaxation of carry privileges here in my remaining lifetime.I would add, except under court order. If 'bear' is clarified to apply outside of the home as part of the core right, there will indeed be a relaxing of cary laws.

Musketeer
August 19, 2011, 03:52 PM
some of you guys are crazy.. LOL.. There is a reason that county issues a "hunting and target only" wich only allows you to have it in the car with you while traveling to and from hunting/range.. most LEO's will certainly not like to findout you have one loaded, let alone on your body..

Restrictions are ADMINISTRATIVE only. The permit allows CCW. Carrying outside the restrictions is not illegal but can result in revocation or suspension of the permit. This is established NYS law.

The restrictions are also ARBITRARY and will eventually face the chopping block as BEAR is clarified federally.

ClydeFrog
August 21, 2011, 03:13 AM
If I were a NYer or had a valid carry/firearm permit, I'd contact the community service office or crime prevention unit to see EXACTLY what the local PD's concerns or legal issues were. Be honest & open about your firearm questions and they should assist you. Since the LE agency is where you live or work that would be where you are most often.
I'd also suggest buying a copy of www.gunlawguide.com or atty David Wong's detailed guide to US gun & knife laws. Your state AG's office or www.NRA.org may help too.

Stay safe & stay legal!
;)

Doug Bowser
August 23, 2011, 08:12 PM
I had a pistol permit in NY in 1963. It was unrestricted at that time. Now, hearing all these restrictions and problems, I am happy I moved to Mississippi. I have an enhanced CCW here and can carry any handgun I wish, almost anywhere I want to.

Doug Bowser
Formerly from Syracuse (Onondaga County)

Musketeer
August 24, 2011, 02:21 PM
ClydeFrog, the problem with your well intentioned advice is the LEOs you would contact in the Long Island counties, and I would wager in others in urban regions, is their concern is that they don't want citizens carrying guns.

Suffolk county PD asks that you provide documented evidence of both previous attempts made on you life and why those threatening conditions still exist for an unrestricted permit. They specifically exempt having been the victim of a violent crime or living in a high crime area as sole justification for a permit. This is after the county legislature passed a law forbidding the county pd from adding restrictions beyond those speciically in the NYS penal law. They just ignored it and found a judge to side with them (who also gets a lifetime unrestricted permt). You are dealing with people who intentionally make it difficult to deal with. When I last renewed my permit I had to bring all 11 handguns I owned to the county headquarters so they could confirm they matched my permit and file. They were the ones who physically checked and recorded them in the first place!