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drail
March 17, 2008, 05:37 PM
So many people I have met that have decided to CCW seem absolutely convinced that they need at least a 15 round magazine capacity and that revolvers are entirely too limited in capacity. How many rounds do you think a person needs in a defensive pistol? More than six? More than 10?

trigger happy
March 17, 2008, 05:44 PM
I like having more but I'm fine with 5 or 6

I carry a revolver but I do have some high capacity firearms

B. Lahey
March 17, 2008, 05:50 PM
More than zero, less than one thousand.

bt 223
March 17, 2008, 06:02 PM
I carry a glock 17 with 16 in it and a spare mag with 15. Bottom line is you don't know if you will need it at all, and if you need it who knows how many you will need. Look at some of the situations with mall shooters or other public shootings where the shooter had a AK 47. I would want my AR with two mags. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Or as Truman said about nukes, better to have and not need, than to need, and not have.

xrocket
March 17, 2008, 06:43 PM
"How many rounds do you think a person needs in a defensive pistol?"

As in the Matrix ... The Right One ... First.

Playboypenguin
March 17, 2008, 06:47 PM
Statistically speaking...anywhere in the rage of two or three will be all you ever need. Therefore I am quite happy with my five shot .357mag and an extra reload on a speed strip. I am not going to get into a shootout with anyone. If I am in a position where I have enough cover to be shooting it out long term with someone I will most likely be able to hold my ground while holding my fire or flee.

BillCA
March 17, 2008, 07:15 PM
Statistically speaking...anywhere in the rage of two or three will be all you ever need.

Statistically speaking, a man with one foot in a fire and the other frozen in a block of ice averages out as comfortable. Until you ask him. :D

Not picking on you, PBP, as statistically speaking, you're correct. When carrying I almost always carry at least one reload of some kind. With a wheelgun it may be two reloads. But if 15-18 rounds doesn't help you, it's unlikely that carrying 30-40 will either.

What's the true definition of firepower?

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/BillCA/Hobby/misc/US-Navy-Battleship-2.jpg
U.S.S. Wisconsin BB64

Avenger11
March 17, 2008, 07:23 PM
If six shots from my Ruger GP100 357 mag. doesn't do the trick, then I'll fall back to plan B. Drop to the fetal position, pee my pants, and beg for mercy.

tplumeri
March 17, 2008, 07:25 PM
If I am in a position where I have enough cover to be shooting it out long term with someone I will most likely be able to hold my ground while holding my fire or flee.


Or dial 911 and wait for the calvary.

I carry whatever is in the gun. very rarely carry an extra mag. but always have my cell phone.
7+1 rounds In the PM9.
as long as theres not more than 8 BG's, ill be ok. ;)

MLeake
March 17, 2008, 07:39 PM
Another poster pointed this out once before, but some malfunctions may require you to drop the mag (this includes malfunctions of the mag itself). So, with a semi-auto, it's a good idea to have a spare mag, regardless of round count.

Epyon
March 17, 2008, 07:44 PM
I'd say it all depends on where you live/where you are going. If you must travel through a rough area and have no choice, I'd say bring a lot of ammo just to be safe. If you're going hunting in the woods with some buddies, probably not as much. We all know that two legged animals can be far far worse than the four legged kind.


Epyon

Archie
March 17, 2008, 07:55 PM
I think it very unlikely to be confronted with a reinforced battalion of Red Chinese regulars in the daily course of commerce. The least amount I carry is for a S&W M36 - with one reload. If I haven't solved my problem in ten rounds, I'm in way over my head.

My typical load out is a K frame revolver with a reload. Sometimes a Government Model or Commander, again with one full reload.

I cannot foresee a situation calling for suppressive fire. Then again, I consider 'suppressive fire' a well aimed and delivered shot to suppress the problem.

Perhaps I'm over optimistic. Yes, I have the cell phone for back up.

model70fan
March 17, 2008, 08:04 PM
It depends on what I'm wearing, clothes that allow for more I will carry my 4" XD or my 5" 1911, if I'm wearing say just like dress pants and a light shirt I carry my subcompact XD or my snub .38 in an ankle holster. I know ankle holsters are kind of akward, but something is better than nothing, I would rather have a .22 derringer than nothing at all. So like B. Lahey said, somewhere between 1 and 1000 should be good, as long as you're not sitting on that big ole goose egg. (Zero for those that aren't familiar with goose eggs:D)

Ridge_Runner_5
March 17, 2008, 08:05 PM
Personally I do prefer a semi-auto because revolvers are too wide for my taste for a CCW...I dont see a need for a 17rd magazine, but I would prefer to have a large enough magazine that I could take several shots at multiple attackers if necessary...

TacticalDefense1911
March 17, 2008, 09:13 PM
Well, personally, I'd rather have too many than not enough. You never know what situation you might get in. Practically, I feel well armed with my 5 shot revolver, but I do carry two speed loaders just in case.

cold dead hands
March 17, 2008, 09:39 PM
I swing both ways when it comes to CCW.

If I carry my revolver I am limited to the five shots in the cylinder. I have considered carrying a speed strip, but I find the idea to be kinda dumb. I can create distance between me and my attacker instead of fooling with a one at a time reload. A reload isn't a bad idea if being attacked, but when it comes to being shot at I find that cover, distance and shot placement make far more sense than a complicated reload.

And yes, I am aware that round (one twist) reloaders are available, but they are too bulky for me me in daily life when I consider carrying them.

Now, if I carry one of my autos, at least one reload goes with me. Magazines are easy to conceal (think cell phone holder). I do not carry a cell phone. The gunshot will have police at the scene shortly.

You may not understand my logic and I certainly won't explain it beyond this. In reality, no one understands my train of thought, so, ......

Playboypenguin
March 17, 2008, 09:41 PM
Personally I do prefer a semi-auto because revolvers are too wide for my taste for a CCW
I can honestly say that I have never had an issue with concealing the cyliner of a five shot snubbie. The issue with me is always the grip of any guns...not matter how thick or thin. :)

Double Naught Spy
March 17, 2008, 11:00 PM
Statistically speaking...anywhere in the rage of two or three will be all you ever need.

Statistically speaking, using simple percentage ratios of historical events to predict mutually exclusive future events is invalid.

In other words, two or three will be all you ever need, unless it isn't.

Of course, statistically speaking and using the invalid application of historical data to predict mutually exclusive future events, you don't need a gun at all. If you have a gun, you won't need to draw it. If you have to draw it, you won't need to fire it and so you don't even need to have ammo. If you do need to fire it, hitting your target isn't even absolutely critica.

...but that is if you want to trust your life to historical data that have nothing to do with you, be it for carrying a gun or how much ammo you carry.

I think it very unlikely to be confronted with a reinforced battalion of Red Chinese regulars in the daily course of commerce. The least amount I carry is for a S&W M36 - with one reload. If I haven't solved my problem in ten rounds, I'm in way over my head.

So because you are in way over your head, you give up or quit?

I cannot foresee a situation calling for suppressive fire. Then again, I consider 'suppressive fire' a well aimed and delivered shot to suppress the problem.

You may get in over your head more easily than you my realize. Waters' "The Best Defense" has a great story on how suppressive fire was used by a guy on his first trip back to a gun range after open heart surgery. It was a gun battle that took place in traffic outside of Houston where he used suppressive fire to keep bad guys from doing further harm to a trooper they had already downed.

You may find you need your suppressive fire to egress from a situation where you are in over your head.

Perhaps I'm over optimistic. Yes, I have the cell phone for back up.

If you think a cell phone is back up, you are overly optimistic. I can hear it now....
Don't come another step closer or I will call someone!

Playboypenguin
March 17, 2008, 11:05 PM
Statistically speaking, using simple percentage ratios of historical events to predict mutually exclusive future events is invalid.

Care to explain your rational on that one?

RedneckFur
March 18, 2008, 12:19 AM
Give me 6 rounds of 38 special or 5 of .357. If that wont stop the BG, then I dont have anythign for him :D

Anchorage
March 18, 2008, 01:20 AM
It all depends.

If I am going to a really bad spot, and I have to carry alot of cash or other valuables, I'd have the glock 19 Shoulder holster + 1 mag (21x9mm) the J frame (5x.38) in OWB AND the P32 in the pocket (7x.32)

If I am just going to the bad spot with nothing much, I'd have the J frame (5x.38) in OWB AND the P32 in the pocket (7x.32)

For general self defense I'd I dont know where I'll be I'll just have the 5 shots of .38, or Just the 7 shots of .32

I figure my response to being attacked with be unique to what I have on me.

For the full set, I would try to divide evenly the glock mag for the number of perps. If I am attacked by 5 perps, I'll try for 2 hits center mass for each BG, then reload and try again. Then one each from the J frame, and then fire the 7 .32's as I run away.

All would be within 25 seconds.

If I just have the J frame, I would fire one each at the 3 most agressive looking BGs and run for cover and try to get away with 2 from cover.

Hopefully if all the stars align, after I draw, all 5 will run, and I'll shoot them in the back as they run. :)

KIDDING.... :) :) no shooting BGs in the back I know ! :)

Firepower!
March 18, 2008, 03:46 AM
Hey thats my name....I simply state MIB!

cavscout77
March 18, 2008, 08:11 AM
I look at it a different way. If I am by myself, I fell comfortable with my sub compact .40 with 10 in it, though I do often carry an extra mag for it. I can move myself from harm very fast and have to worry about me and only me.

On the other hand, I do allot with my family, wife, 5 year old boy and 2 year old girl. Ok, Picture this, I am in a shopping mall with my family(yea right, like your going to catch me in a mall). My wife wants to go into a clothing store and look at a pair of pants. I say, I am going over to the bathroom. I head over there handle my business. Just as I dry my hands, I hear gun shots. Of course, your first reaction would be, where is my family. You are now in an unfamiliar situation looking for 3 people who, at this point are hiding. You may need 8-10 rounds just to get the BG's attention away from your family or to even find them. Your attention is not on eliminating the BG at that point, though it should be.

True most people don't carry concealed, of those that do, most will never draw the weapon for defensive purpose, and of those that draw, an even smaller number will have to use the weapon. Those that do have to use the weapon, a very, very small number will fire more than 2 or 3 rounds. It's about like winning the lottery, the chances are so slim, most of don't even live near a person that has won the lottery. But there are a lot of us that buy tickets for the chance.

I carry a Glock 22 with a 15 round mag and I carry a mag holster that holds 2 more 15 round mags. I have felt threatened enough to draw one time, and I hope it never happens again. But if it happens again, I will not look back and say, If I had one more mag, I could have done more.

Like was already said, It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

MicroBalrog
March 18, 2008, 08:23 AM
As many rounds as you can comfortably carry.

Nobody has yet died from having too much ammo.

cavscout77
March 18, 2008, 08:54 AM
Well said Micro.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 18, 2008, 09:55 AM
Everybody jabbers about a point in a distribution of events when you should really consider the confidence interval.

The most telling 'point' is that most DGUs have no shots fired - thus don't carry ammo.

Most of these discussions are pure BS as the discussants really don't understand the use of statistics and risk evaluation. Sorry to be direct but that's the case.

Hard Ball
March 18, 2008, 11:17 AM
Ah the Wisconson. Nine 2700 pound shells on the way. THat's REAL firepower!

Double Naught Spy
March 18, 2008, 12:49 PM
Care to explain your rational on that one?

Sure, because the events are mutually exclusive, what happened in the past doesn't predict what will happen in the future as by definition, mutually exclusive events are mutually exclusive of one another. Your statistics are a ratio analysis interpreted to indicate a trend, not an event.

So, while historical data may shot that shooters in gunfights fire an average of 2-3 rounds, that bit of data bears no predictive value on what will happen to the OPer in his gunfight.

For example, if you flip a penny and it comes up heads 9 times in a row, what are the chances the coin will come up heads on the 10th flip? The historical data suggest there is a 100% chance of a head being the result. The reality is that since the coin is two sided, there is a 50% chance. The historical data are mutually exclusive events have NO bearing on the 10th flip.

markj
March 18, 2008, 01:06 PM
How many rounds do you think a person needs in a defensive pistol?

At least one. Dont matter if you cant hit the side of a barn. Practise and find a weapon that fits you and you shoot well, gives ya a bit O confidance and that is more important than rounds carried. Besides they do add weight.

bt 223
March 18, 2008, 02:12 PM
+1 micro

more the merrier

Playboypenguin
March 18, 2008, 02:18 PM
Sure, because the events are mutually exclusive, what happened in the past doesn't predict what will happen in the future as by definition, mutually exclusive events are mutually exclusive of one another. Your statistics are a ratio analysis interpreted to indicate a trend, not an event.

So, while historical data may shot that shooters in gunfights fire an average of 2-3 rounds, that bit of data bears no predictive value on what will happen to the OPer in his gunfight.

For example, if you flip a penny and it comes up heads 9 times in a row, what are the chances the coin will come up heads on the 10th flip? The historical data suggest there is a 100% chance of a head being the result. The reality is that since the coin is two sided, there is a 50% chance. The historical data are mutually exclusive events have NO bearing on the 10th flip
Your point is somewhat valid. I will give you the fact that the human variable is always an undetermined factor. But you still cannot discard factual, real world accounts.

The coin flip example is not applicable here. There are only two possible outcomes and you are trying to relate a mathematical certainty to an uncertain event.

A better example would be that statistics show a shark will not attack a diver in clear water. That does not mean a shark will not attack a diver in clear water but it does mean you use the information to calculate the odds of your likelihood of being attacked. After doing so it would make sense to remain calm and not act aggressively...not to ignore that data and start to violently defend yourself against the shark.

Double Naught Spy
March 18, 2008, 03:23 PM
Yes, the coin example was overly simplified, but since you didn't seem to understand the concdept of mutually exclusive events and lack of predictiveness for a given event, I had to explain things at the most basic level.

As for discounting the usefulness of the example because of only two outcomes, that is the setup you provided, actually. You noted that if the OP's shooting event followed the historical data, he would only need 2-3 shots. So you have set up the bivariate possible outcome of either he will follow the historical pattern of 2-3 shots, or he won't, much like the coin example, heads or tails.

Playboypenguin
March 18, 2008, 03:30 PM
As for discounting the usefulness of the example because of only two outcomes, that is the setup you provided, actually. You noted that if the OP's shooting event followed the historical data, he would only need 2-3 shots. So you have set up the bivariate possible outcome of either he will follow the historical pattern of 2-3 shots, or he won't, much like the coin example, heads or tails.
Sorry you read it that way, but what I am saying is that history shows that most bad guys are not going to be prepared to engage in a long term assualt and your likelihood to be involved in a dissimilar event is very, very small.

Still, there is nothing wrong with choosing to be prepared for the unlikely. Just by carrying a gun we are choosing to do that anyway.

longcoldwinter
March 18, 2008, 03:35 PM
Coin flip statistics are not applicable; you’re dealing with human behavior not random mathematical events. There is truth in the statement “lies, damn lies, and statistics” and you do have to use the proper statistical methods when looking at data, otherwise the data can be used to misrepresent the facts. That being said, my admittedly informal review of real life self defense cases indicates that a 5 or 6 shot revolver is sufficient for the vast majority of civilian self defense situations. Extra rounds may make you “feel” better but don’t end up getting fired. If someone has access to self defense cases studies which show a civilian has needed 30+ rounds plus a BUG I would love to read em.

Best advice I have read is to carry as many rounds as you can comfortably carry and which also make you feel comfortable.

Hook686
March 18, 2008, 03:36 PM
How many shots will I need ?

I haven't got a clue. I carry an 8 shot revolver. I really do not figure on a reload.

bt 223
March 18, 2008, 05:32 PM
I guess the question then becomes, what do you consider to be in the realm of possibilities?

Would any of you be shocked if a group of radical muslims opened fire in a mall?

If so how much ammo would you want to have?
If they were coordinated, you would need suppressive fire. My 31 shots wouldn't even be enough. But before you say that this is a far fetched idea, it just happened in a school in Israel. Before 9-11 using planes to attack buildings would have sounded impossible, but now how many of us have thought " one armed pilot, or armed attendant could have changed history".

So, what do you consider to be in the realm of possibilities?

drail
March 18, 2008, 05:59 PM
Howdy all. OP here. I have to say you are making some interesting points on this subject. I had incorrectly assumed that almost everyone had gone over to large capacity magazine fed guns and am surprised at how many others carry a 5 shooter besides myself. Being almost an old fart myself I have always liked revolving guns(though I did the 1911 IPSC thang for most of the 80s and 90s) One thing I noticed in IPSC was on more than a few occasions big name shooters with custom factory built guns at National matches scratching their heads looking at their 1911 which suddenly stopped working. Kinda reinforced my faith in wheelguns for serious work. But I just figure 5 or 6 rounds plus two reloads were always enough, though as some have pointed at, you just never know. Maybe when I get too old to run away I'll carry more reloads. Loved that overhead shot of the USS Wisconsin making thunder. Now that is Firepower! Bless you all.

Avenger11
March 18, 2008, 06:11 PM
"Statistically speaking" without facts or sources is an assumption at best!

model70fan
March 18, 2008, 07:18 PM
Statistics are worthless, you can use statistics to prove anything:D

Playboypenguin
March 18, 2008, 07:23 PM
Would any of you be shocked if a group of radical muslims opened fire in a mall?

If so how much ammo would you want to have?
If they were coordinated, you would need suppressive fire.
If there is a group of them and they are coordinated I will not be letting loose with any large amount of fire that would give away my position.

Shadi Khalil
March 18, 2008, 07:29 PM
If I'm out and about, one mag in the gun and thats it. Same goes with my revolver. Soemtimes, I'll bring an extra mag but I'll ussually leave it in the car.

Playboypenguin
March 18, 2008, 07:30 PM
If I'm out and about, one mag in the gun and thats it. Same goes with my revolver.
One question...how do you get a mag to stay in your revolver? They always fall out of mine. ;)

Doc TH
March 18, 2008, 08:04 PM
The biggest problem with Double naught's coin flip example is not its "simplicity". It is the fact that a coin toss is a binomial distribution, not a normal distribution. With a fair coin we know the probability of each possible outcome on each toss is exactly 0.5

Let's get real; we always use past events to predict likely future events. That's what probability is all about. If I had a choice of two medications to treat the same condition, oh let's say Naproxen or Vioxx, are you saying I should not consider the fact that the FDA issued a warning on Vioxx based on past observed adverse events?

Boris Bush
March 18, 2008, 08:49 PM
Firepower? I do not think firepower means amount of rounds, or weapons carried. Brainpower (I think) is firepower. If someone is smart enough to be aware of what is going on around them and avoid a situation then they used the ultimate firepower.

Thats what I am getting from PBPs posts.

That said I just tallied up what I just carried to the store and ouch, I wont even, but. I do carry 2, one for me and one for the wife, and she shoots almost as well as I do......................

Double Naught Spy
March 18, 2008, 09:09 PM
The biggest problem with Double naught's coin flip example is not its "simplicity". It is the fact that a coin toss is a binomial distribution, not a normal distribution. With a fair coin we know the probability of each possible outcome on each toss is exactly 0.5

Actually Doc, due to the fact that it is probability, non-normal distributions of flips can and do occur.

Since you want to get real, your FDA example will not tell you one way or the other whether or not YOU will have the reaction/problem to Vioxx. Your event is independent. They are looking at trends, not individual events when it comes to prediction.

The OPer's gunfight will be a mutually exclusive event.

jon_in_wv
March 18, 2008, 09:30 PM
For a "defensive" situation I think the answer varies too much because of the nature of the question. If I was attacked my a lone individual with a knife. A single stack 45 with a spare mag would be very comforting. If a disaster were to happen and I had to round up my children from school before heading back to the safety of my home, the extra ammo I carry could be needed. After Katrina, when we witness how people can turn into animals at the first sign of trouble, I bought a spare ammo carrier and I routinely carry my M&P 9C with a spare magazine of either 12 or 17 rounds. I doubt I will ever regret that I had too much ammo on me.

Playboypenguin
March 18, 2008, 09:33 PM
If a disaster were to happen and I had to round up my children from school before heading back to the safety of my home, the extra ammo I carry could be needed.
That is when your "ruck gun" and the ammo stored with it comes into play. :)

Bazooka Joe71
March 18, 2008, 10:00 PM
Nobody has yet died from having too much ammo.

HA, you beat me to it! Well, my saying is slightly different, but the same point.:D

Playboypenguin
March 18, 2008, 10:07 PM
Nobody has yet died from having too much ammo.
Oh yeah, what if you are charged by killer bees and you are so waited down by excess ammo that you cannot get away in time? :D

Glenn E. Meyer
March 19, 2008, 11:17 AM
Learn more stat and probability! :D

How much ammo would you carry on the Titanic when you had to abandon ship?

Geez!

Doc TH
March 19, 2008, 10:46 PM
Actually, binomial means that the probability of a "success" remains the same in each trial. It has nothing to do with a normal or Gaussian distribution, that's why there are different statistical tests used for binomial events than for continuous events. But enough of that.

The concept of "probability" is directed toward the relative likelihood of various outcomes. Of course my using Vioxx versus Motrin does not guarantee I am am going to have an adverse event. But if choosing a particular drug increases the likelihood of having a bad outcome compared to an alternative drug, I know which one I am going to take (or prescribe to patients). Your opinion may differ.

Opinions as to appropriate round capacity are personal interpretations of probability estimates. FYI I have attached a portion of a NYPD study of police-perp shootings covering more than 6000 cases.


"NYPD SOP 9 - ANALYSIS OF POLICE COMBAT


Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per
incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not
a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary
to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved
cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action
was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone."

Double Naught Spy
March 20, 2008, 07:14 AM
That is great Doc. So how much ammo will you need in your gunfight?

You are talking about trends. No doubt that whatever amount of ammo you use in your gunfight will not change the trend.

If you want to play the historic probability game for a justification to not carry much ammo, that is fine. However, understand that the history probability game is the same one used by the antis to justify the reason why folks won't need to use guns or why Glen and I have noted that you don't need any ammo at all.

Playboypenguin
March 20, 2008, 01:39 PM
No one is trying to discredit your belief in being prepared for the worst. We all do that to a certain degree just by carrying a gun that we will most likely never need in the first place.

We are just saying that "most" confrontations that involve a gun are not going to become running gun battles. In the case of such a prolonged battle other factors will also probably come into play such as cover and retreat, arrival of law enforcement, etc.

If we are ever in the mall and the SHTF I will have to either make do with my 10 rounds and then crap my pants or hope that you or somebody equally as prepared in somewhere nearby. :)

Stevie-Ray
March 20, 2008, 03:04 PM
I've never felt undergunned with the normal 8 rounds I usually carry. Sometimes 10 with the 9mm, and sometimes I have a BUG, but generally I don't have a reload. In certain situations, like travel to a wilder area, I may take along a reload but not normally. In times of high tensions, I stay home more or take alternate routes to the norm, but never, say, opt for the PLR-16 on a sling rather than the common H&K or Kimber.:D I suppose that's possible, but I hope to have the sense to be out of here before it ever gets that bad.

If I lived in Detroit proper, I'd carry about 5 reloads.

ATW525
March 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
I believe five rounds is enough to settle just about situation a law abiding civilian is likely to get themselves into. So, I carry at least ten to be on the safe side.

MLeake
March 20, 2008, 06:17 PM
a light, one day load at one time was 7x 30rd mags of 5.56, and 4x 15rd mags of 9mm...

so it's apples and oranges, but still a spare pistol mag doesn't really seem like overkill...

allenomics
March 20, 2008, 06:41 PM
Five or more rounds is probably the minimum.

TexasSeaRay
March 20, 2008, 09:12 PM
Long time ago, I walked into harm's way every day with nothing more than a Model 19. No speed loaders, no tactical flashlights, tactical knives--all of that would've given me away as a cop pretty quick. And cell phones were barely getting started back then and were only in your car.

Nowadays, I try very hard not to walk ANYWHERE where I think having a gun is not such a bad idea, let alone needing spare magazines and speedloaders and backup guns.

Depending on what I'm in the mood to carry on what day and what I'm wearing, I either have six rounds, eight rounds, or sixteen rounds.

There are two types of situations you can find yourself in when you pull your weapon.

You're either in a defensive situation where you're pulling your weapon in order to terminate an immediate threat to your life or well-being, or that of someone in your immediate proximity. If you're prepared, you shouldn't need more than a couple of rounds.

Or you're in an offensive situation where someone has started shooting, robbing, beating or whatever and you decide to intervene. You damn sure better know what you're doing if decide to intervene.

But it also sounds like some folks are drooling over the prospects of being able to "intervene." I know of two such people right here in the DFW area. One is an acquaintance, who I don't particularly think much of in the first place and who has no idea what my background is. He goes on and on after shooting incidents such as Omaha, VA Tech, etc.

He dreams of being the hero who kills the bad gunman, saves the innocent bystanders and is lavished with respect, praise and admiration by envious gun-owners who wished THEY could've been there and taken the shot.

I don't think this guy goes to the crapper without two guns, six magazines, knives, flashlights and tactical toilet paper.

The other guy I know from one of the ranges I shoot at. He's always lecturing other shooters on "what they're doing wrong." He normally only lectures new/novice shooters. Experienced shooters politely shrug him off, and when he doesn't leave them alone, they tell him to (coitus) off. He runs in place, does pushups, jumping jacks, hits himself in the gut and actually slaps himself --hard--on the head, then grabs his gun and BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM at the targets that have actual photographs of hokey looking actors holding knives.

Then he tells us "that's how REAL combat is."

We ask him what combat he's seen, and he gives us the sly wink and grin and says, "Can't tell you, 'cause we were never there." wink wink.

Damn right he was never there. If he had been, he would sure as hell be able to shoot a lot better.

And, he wouldn't be so anxious to "mix it up," as he calls it, here in the States with some street criminal or store robber or mall shooter.

At a unit reunion several years ago, several of us were talking about what we carry. Buddy of mine put it best, "I only carry what I need to get the job done."

That's pretty much how I feel.

Jeff

Double Naught Spy
March 20, 2008, 09:45 PM
If we are ever in the mall and the SHTF I will have to either make do with my 10 rounds and then crap my pants or hope that you or somebody equally as prepared in somewhere nearby.

A firearms instructor from TDSA (Tulsa) told me that I will fight like I train and so should train like I fight. I told him I could not pee that much in a range session.

Historical trends are heuristically interesting, insightful, but that is about it.

Playboypenguin
March 20, 2008, 09:48 PM
A firearms instructor from TDSA (Tulsa) told me that I will fight like I train and so should train like I fight. I told him I could not pee that much in a range session.
I could not train the way I fight if I wanted to either. There are seldom any obese women or baby strollers at the range that I can hide behind. :o

PX4Rookie
March 21, 2008, 02:52 PM
Nowadays with gangs and easier access for people to get guns. Most of the time I have noticed if there is a confrontation it will not just be with one person and there can be more than one weapon firing at you.

I carry my 2 14rd magazine on me and have 2 more 17rd magazines in my car. I rather be safe than sorry.

Growing up I didnt hang out with the nicest people and have had my share of bullets coming at me. Luckily nothing has happened. Each time there was a confrontation or if I ever saw one there was definitely more than one person that had a weapon on them.

Mike in VA
March 23, 2008, 10:49 AM
Statistically, most gun fights occur at five yards or less, involving five shots or less, and are over in five seconds or less.

However, I don't think there's such a thing as an "average" gunfight IRL, and as succinctly pointed out above, no one has ever died from having too much ammo. That said, my carry guns range from 5 - 10 rnds, and I carry at least one reload. YMMV.

jon_in_wv
May 11, 2008, 09:30 PM
Do yourselves a favor and go on Youtube and watch the footage of the LA riots or Hurrican Katrina. See how little it takes for societal rules to be thrown by the wayside and otherwise good people, loot, steal, assault, etc.....All it takes is a natural event, a shutdown of water, power, (or in LA is was a court decision) or an outbreak of disease and suddenly the calm and controlled world you live in turns to a lawless chaos where the ability to defend yourself is the ONLY thing saving your butt. I don't walk around with a "ruck" loaded for this event and its not practical too. I have preparations at home but what if I'm at the mall with my wife and the kids are at school? How easy would it be in an outbreak like that to get to my children and then home where we can buckle down to weather the storm or load up the car to flee? I don't know but having a good supply of ammo isn't going to hurt. In a simple self defense scenario, if only a few shots are fired, the extra ammo isn't going to hurt.

Hard Ball
May 12, 2008, 09:32 AM
My solution when weight is a real factor is a SIG P226 9mm and a spare magazine.I think If I cant get it done with 31 rounds fate is against me.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 13, 2008, 10:16 AM
As soon as you say the average gunfight - I say to you, go to stat class. My same old point. Why, why - when I teach this crap - I spend tons of time on central tendency and distributional characteristics.

jon_in_wv
May 13, 2008, 05:57 PM
Hardball, with that logic you shouldn't carry at all. I mean if you need a gun, than the fates are against you aren't they? The very fact you have a weapon at all is because you are empowering yourself to not depend on fate or the mercy of others. I wish to determine my own fate.

Firepower!
May 13, 2008, 06:31 PM
I carry #$%^ load of ammo in the car and it due to where I live and travel. That said, when I am out of car alone I carry one piece one load what that may be. Usually its G26 with 10+1 hollow points. I figure if I am where I cant get out of jam with a few shots, I am not prepared at all. Such situations are ambushes or when you go in for gun fight. Then I dont carry a pistol. Its time for my cavalry equiped with AK47 drum mags, M4s, G3s (not HK) and MP5s.

But thats a whole different ball game here in Pakistan. I lived US and really never felt the need to carry a piece 24/7. May be a handful of times in over a decade I thought I should have a gun.

You guys in US are over prepared, but I guess better be safe than sorry.

Archie
May 13, 2008, 09:56 PM
I think it very unlikely to be confronted with a reinforced battalion of Red Chinese regulars in the daily course of commerce. The least amount I carry is for a S&W M36 - with one reload. If I haven't solved my problem in ten rounds, I'm in way over my head.So because you are in way over your head, you give up or quit?
Not exactly... Presuming every time I fire a shot I hit an opponent and every time I hit an opponent he (she/it?) falls incapacitated... How many am I going to get prior to be overwhelmed? Ten? Fifty? Three? I hate to be the one to break this to you, Double, but sooner or later, it's going to be your turn. Perhaps from evil action, perhaps from a bad ticker, but it will be your turn sooner or later. As it will be mine. I can't see carrying a Government Model and six extra magazines (total of fifty rounds) every step of my life and dying with the better part of six magazines unfired. It's just - wasteful.

I cannot foresee a situation calling for suppressive fire. Then again, I consider 'suppressive fire' a well aimed and delivered shot to suppress the problem.You may get in over your head more easily than you my realize.Yes, I may. Or I may not; I'm pretty observant as a rule. One pays one's money and takes one's choices - and chances.Waters' "The Best Defense" has a great story on how suppressive fire was used by a guy on his first trip back to a gun range after open heart surgery. It was a gun battle that took place in traffic outside of Houston where he used suppressive fire to keep bad guys from doing further harm to a trooper they had already downed.So how many other people did he wound, terrorize or endanger with his 'suppressive' fire? Like I said in my first posting, I consider suppressive fire to be a well aimed shot (and hit) to suppress the attacker.

For every instance of self-defense suppressive fire used to solve or stay a problem, I can show you several instances of poor marksmanship and unreasonable danger to the community at large arising from too high a magazine count. For instance - http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_341036.html Two undercover policemen and a shooting suspect fired at least 103 rounds during an early morning shootout ...or http://www.luoamerican.com/baldilocks/2005/05/bright_lights_b.htmlThe deputies, however, were no less of a hazard to the health of the neighborhood. They fired 120 rounds at the guy, but he barely gets scratched. Plenty of collateral targets, like houses and windows belonging to same are hit, however. One of the deputies even stops one of his buddy's bullets with his vest; 'friendly fire.' (The phrase sounds so benign, doesn’t it?) And no gun was found on the suspect.
I think there's an argument to be made that large magazine capacities decrease marksmanship.

You may find you need your suppressive fire to egress from a situation where you are in over your head.The old 'fire a bunch of wild shots and run like heck' trick? Not my style. If I have to shoot, I shoot at a specific target.

Perhaps I'm over optimistic. Yes, I have the cell phone for back up.If you think a cell phone is back up, you are overly optimistic. I can hear it now....
"Don't come another step closer or I will call someone!"And again, you misunderstand the technology and the tactic.

Punch in the speed dial setting for 911; give location and best avenue of approach - in between gunshots - finishing with "I'm the scared looking fat guy with the revolver". Not hanging up, place cell phone on deck or other relatively protected place and continue with immediate problem.

Currently, I live in a fairly densely populated urban area. Suppressive fire - pray and pray tactics - are ill advised.

But I'll tell you what, Double Naught; you do what you like. Please don't kill my dog or me in the process.

cschwanz
May 13, 2008, 10:54 PM
i carry 6+1 in the gun, and a 7 round mag in my pocket. if 14 won't due, i've got bigger problems...

jon_in_wv
May 14, 2008, 05:06 PM
OK. So what is the BENEFIT to carrying less ammo? I mean, if I get into a shooting scenario, and I AM over my head, what is the benefit of not having more ammo? Why should I choose to carry less even if I won't need it? Am I less prepared for the shooting that only requires 1-2 shots because I have a spare magazine on my belt?

I think there's an argument to be made that large magazine capacities decrease marksmanship.
Nonsense: Poor TRAINING leads to poor marksmanship. THe magazine capacity has nothing to do with it. I challenge ANYONE to out shoot me and my M&P with their snubbie. We can both fire 15 rounds at the target and you can then explain to me how my high capacity magazine threw off my shooting. In fact, I wonder how many rounds a revolver or other low capacity weapon shooter tends to fire in a practice session? I normally fire 50-100 rounds. ALL well aimed. I would wager most low capacity guys don't reload mags and speed loaders to shoot as many rounds. Some do.

Perhaps you should read a story about a man named Sgt. York. He was in over his head and through his own courage, and a lot of ammo, he not only survived but PREVAILED over a superior force.

I, for one, and not going to give up just because I am in a bad situation. My life means way to much to my wife and my wife and kids for that. You may think you are always aware, and would never get in a bad situation. If thats the case, why carry at all?? Couldn't you just avoid the situation where you would need it? It seems you concede that may not be possible.

Here are my additions to the cliche pool:
Chance favors the prepared mind.
and
Its better to have it and not need it, that to need it and not have it!

Booyah.

BikerRN
May 15, 2008, 01:37 AM
For me it's not so much an issue of reloads, as I probably won't have to reload in an off duty encounter, it's more of an issue of having a gun accessable to me when I need it.

Having had to deflect a blade while drawing my BUG reinforced to me that I need to carry more than one gun. That way I can draw with either hand. Looking at my lifestyle, mode of dress and preferred modes of transportation has led me to the conclusion that I need to carry three guns off duty.

One is for the "Primary" and the second is for the weakside. The third is for when I'm sitting, as I can't draw the first two very well from a seated position. I usually carry at least two reloads, but sometimes four.

Now, bear in mind, my preferred weapon is a Revolver, so my round count is low compared to some of you. I doubt I will have to empty a gun, but you never know. I'd much rather have another gun than a reload. My minimum is two guns, my preferred is three guns.

Biker

.351winchester
May 15, 2008, 07:37 AM
Round count for me depends on the cartridge and role of the gun.

5 shot .38 (or single stack .380)-Good enough for carry for a minimal risk environment. The 7 shot .32 however IMO should be supplemental.

9mm-I expect more of this and would demand a minimum 12+1. It would have to be a mighty small micro to be any less than that, in which case it would fill the role stated of the .38

45-Prefer the single stack in this so have to live with 7-8+1; Though I consider it not much better than a 9mm, 8 rounds of .45 is FAR more comforting than 8 of 9mm

12 ga.-Clint and Jeff thought doubles, even singles were alright. 4+1 minimum for me (again, unless a micro AOW), which should be plendy for any legit SD situation, but 8 or 9 on tap is very reassuring.

If you could put up with the weight and carry outdoors mostly, an 8 shot .357 mag has serious firepower. double stack .45's and 10mm as well.

obxned
May 15, 2008, 04:53 PM
Stick one hand in a fire and grab a chunk of dry ice with the other. On average, you are quite comfortable. Averages mean little when it comes to a single event.

Keltyke
May 15, 2008, 05:08 PM
"Suppressive fire - pray and pray tactics - are ill advised."

I agree. If you waste ammo suppressing and warnnig, you WILL need all those extra mags.

Deaf Smith
May 15, 2008, 05:16 PM
So many people I have met that have decided to CCW seem absolutely convinced that they need at least a 15 round magazine capacity and that revolvers are entirely too limited in capacity. How many rounds do you think a person needs in a defensive pistol? More than six? More than 10?

Whatever the CCW carrier deems they want to carry. I have no troulbe with people who carry a 5 shooter or a 17 shooter. It's up to them. As long as they can conceal it, or two, or three, or however many handguns they want to carry, it's fine with me.

To say there is a limit is to say the state should limit. Cops carry 17 shooters, so why not anyone else????

FWIW, I carry a Glock 27 usually with 11 rounds and a spare 10 round mag. BUT, I still have my Glock 26, capable of holding 13 rounds. Either way is fine with me. Same goes for a Glock 19 with 15 to 17 round mags.

ISC
May 15, 2008, 05:30 PM
typically, I pocket carry my keltec P11 with a 10 rd mag or keep it in a holster under the seat with 15 rd mag reload attatched to the holster.

jon_in_wv
May 18, 2008, 06:38 AM
I'll agree with the statements about suppressive fire for the most part. Civilian suppressive fire is different that what the military would use. One or two shots fired in warning could be effective for a civilian.

FerFAL
May 18, 2008, 06:46 AM
I dont have a crystal ball to know what I'll be needing or not, so I carry all teh ammo I can realistically carry. Right now that's 16 rounds of 357 SIG in my Glock.
Do I think it's enough? I suppose, but I'd carry more if I could.

FerFAL