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View Full Version : What tactical use is the shotgun slug?


pfch1977
March 16, 2008, 08:21 PM
A shotgun slug is great for entertainment purposes...but what tactical use does it serve?

Doc TH
March 16, 2008, 08:54 PM
Not sure what you mean by "entertainment". Are you being facetious?

A slug has immense penetrating power, creates a massive wound channel and is considered an effective round against large bears by the US Forest Service. You can check out penetration on the Box O' Truth website. A capable shooter should be able to group 3-4" at 50 yds with smoothbore barrel and open rifle sights. With Brenneke slugs many can do much better. Specialized slug barrels can do that at 100 yds.

Seems pretty "tactical" to me.

Hard Ball
March 16, 2008, 09:23 PM
+1 Doc

pfch1977
March 16, 2008, 09:34 PM
Besides large game hunting, what would be the tactical use?
My opinion is the slug has to much penetration. How could it be used by the police or a homeowner? It would penetrate right through the target and bound to hit someone or something else.

jrothWA
March 16, 2008, 09:51 PM
ATTENTION getter!

bt 223
March 16, 2008, 10:41 PM
1 oz. of lead going REAL fast. What is it not good for?

chris in va
March 16, 2008, 10:53 PM
I believe Aguila makes a short slug shell that would probably work better for HD.

Dwight55
March 16, 2008, 11:25 PM
The shotgun slug is the poor man's main battle rifle out to 100 yds, . . . even more in the hands of a competent user with top of the line equipment.

Tactical uses include intentional breaching of the exterior walls of many buildings, . . . breaching the cover of a vehicle's doors, . . . overcoming bg's with body armor/flak jackets.

Given the flimsy construction of the compact pickups, . . . smaller vans and autos, . . . I would bet on my Beretta vs the Ford Ranger as to whether it would stop one or not.

Over penetration, . . . that is page two, . . . efective penetration is page one and it is far more important than page two.

May God bless,
Dwight

BillCA
March 17, 2008, 01:45 AM
In tactical use, the shotgun slug serves as the heavy hitter for civilian duties.

A one-ounce rifled slug at 1560 fps = 2375 ft. lbs of energy from an approximately 70-caliber projectile.

A 3/4 ounce Barnes-expander slug from a 3" 12 gauge can deliver up to 2600 foot pounds.

So what would it be used for?
- Vehicle disabling shots
- Hitting occupants inside a vehicle
- Firing at barricaded hostiles (firing thru some barricades)
- Firing through exterior walls (i.e. next to or below windows)
- Door breeching (destroys door lockworks on contact)
- Use against hostiles with body armor (if it doesn't penetrate, it hurts like hell!)
- Firing through walls - sheetrock, plaster, plywood
- Firing through furniture - sofas, beds, dressers, tables

In short, any time you need lots of penetration to reach a hostile target, you can call on the shotgun slug. Even the 20-gauge can deliver 2,000 ft-lbs of energy from a slug.

Using a 12-bore slug against an unarmored person will generally take the starch out of his shorts -- all the way to his socks. Even drug-induced psychos tend to become anchored to the sidewalk when solidly hit with a big slug.

If a Major League pitcher threw a fast-ball into your stomach at home plate... consider that as a .45 ACP hit. When you've recovered and stand up again, being run over by a charging 1800 pound Buffalo is the receiving end of a slug.

Questions?

matthew temkin
March 17, 2008, 06:21 AM
For generations the shotgun has been known as the greatest close range close combat weapon ever--bar none.
It can also serve double duty as a sporting tool, be it hunting or trap/skeet.
A decent pump or semi automatic is also sold at a very reasonable price.
Sounds like a winner, even in our modern times.

hogdogs
March 17, 2008, 07:50 AM
If a slug bumps into a bone (bone will break) the slug will begin severe deformation thus reducing unaccepted secondary penetrations. 000 buck could easily exit a torso and would result in a bunch of projectiles fliying around.
But nothin says "STOP YOU PUNK!" like a blob of lead!
Brent

Double Naught Spy
March 17, 2008, 08:11 AM
A shotgun slug is great for entertainment purposes...but what tactical use does it serve?

You can "precision" shoot with a slug that you can't do with buck or bird shot. That means reducing the risk to bystanders or hostages from stray shot. Now that is entertainment!

EskrimadoR
March 17, 2008, 08:20 AM
+1 for BillCA ;)

xrocket
March 17, 2008, 08:44 AM
The 12ga. shotgun and 1oz slug is more than just a "poor man's battle rifle" firearm. It is for anyone rich or poor, big or small, male or female and who is willing to practice with it to gain a level of proficiency.

I have a Sig 556 carbine and many other Sig pistols, but given the opportunity, it is my FN TPS 12ga loaded with OO backed up with 1oz. slugs in the last two holes that I reach for first above all others.

It is black as the ace of spades. The cycling sound will give pause to idiots. It will spit amounts of lead and fire beyond belief. It is one mean sob too.

As for "tactical", I think it serves that purpose rather well when all is considered.

TexasSeaRay
March 17, 2008, 11:15 AM
+1 to BillCA.

Jeff

Anchorage
March 17, 2008, 01:02 PM
I guess for "tactical" you are doing something like raiding an illegal drug factory where there are no innocent people there... It would be nice to shoot down 4 or 5 armed drug thugs who happen to be lined up with one slug.

where as for buckshot, the spread is great for stopping mutilple bgs at a distance, imagine a civil war style group.

bt 223
March 17, 2008, 03:57 PM
Anchorage wrote.

I guess for "tactical" you are doing something like raiding an illegal drug factory where there are no innocent people there... It would be nice to shoot down 4 or 5 armed drug thugs who happen to be lined up with one slug.

where as for buckshot, the spread is great for stopping mutilple bgs at a distance, imagine a civil war style group.




Somebody has watched too many movies

Creature
March 17, 2008, 04:07 PM
If a Major League pitcher threw a fast-ball into your stomach at home plate... consider that as a .45 ACP hit. When you've recovered and stand up again, being run over by a charging 1800 pound Buffalo is the receiving end of a slug.

Yeow!...that's one way of lookin' at it.

SuperBunny
March 17, 2008, 04:37 PM
overcoming bg's with body armor/flak jackets.

Really? I thought body armor could stop slugs?

Or did you mean just hurt them alot! i would image it would break the sternum and all of a persons ribs if they were wearing body armor?

Desertscout1
March 17, 2008, 04:44 PM
There are several levels of body armor. They don't all stop everything.

trigger happy
March 17, 2008, 05:09 PM
even when the trauma plate and body armor do their thing, your day is still going to be ruined

but it beats being dead

tony pasley
March 17, 2008, 06:28 PM
The slug stops the badguy who does not hear the slide being racked or does not believe what he just heard.

rantingredneck
March 17, 2008, 06:54 PM
When something within 100 yds of you absolutely, positively, no questions asked has to die, I'd wager your best chances of making that happen are with a COM hit with a Brenneke KO Slug. If that fails, repeat, if that fails, then you've stepped through the looking glass and are now rightly screwed.

scoutleader
March 17, 2008, 07:24 PM
I was a Sheriff Deputy at one time in a small county in Missouri. It was hight of Deer season and I had to work the afternoon shift. Just as we got to get ready for the afternoon patrol we had a drifter in town that just robbed the local back. The local PD were chasing the guy around town, he was armed and shot 2 people in the bank. The town only had 13,000 people in it and not very large. After a 20 minute cruise around town shooting at the us he stopped in the town square for a show down. He put 3 hand guns on top of his car and started shooting at anybody in site. He hit two cops before an off duty deputy with a 12 gauge with 3 slugs got a clear shot at him. The first shot was a single shot, COM. As we started to the car he stood back up and raised his 44 mag at the deputy. He dropped 3 more in from the semi auto shotgun. The guy had a vest. it only stopped the first slug, the other 3 found their mark. So yest it has a tactical purpose.

hogdogs
March 17, 2008, 08:32 PM
I will say from a ballistic standpoint the slug is a sledgehammer! Poke one trhu a an old freezer at 50 yards. In and out it goes... Body armor may stop penetration but them thousands of per square inch of impact will knock the wind out of anyone! At home defense range the spread of shot will be measured in inches not feet! Why waste all that energy? My first shot will be 7 1/2 shot but after that one 00 and the rest slugs...Com or head shot is a sure way to free me up to call 911!
Brent

jhenry
March 17, 2008, 09:41 PM
Well, they shoot big holes in stuff. I guess in some tactical sense, if you have some special tactical need to tactically shoot a big hole in something, then tactically speaking a 12 gauge slug could be called upon to deliver the goods, tactically that is.

hogdogs
March 17, 2008, 10:29 PM
Wake yer asses up... in a home room stituation the spread of a shot shell is going to begin at 10 yards,,, under 10 yards it is just a big entry wound. Whqat the lead does inside the body means little after this. Yes the BG is severly wounded but mortally incapacitated is severly different! the wound CHANNEL of a 20 or 12 gauge slug is the kicker. Hydra dynamic destruction is not even comparable to a bullet wound... we are talking about a belly (sub diapraghm) thru and thru that impacts severe damage on lungs, heart, liver and kidneys... The intention is to stop a threat and a slug will do that right now...
Brent

YukonKid
March 17, 2008, 10:43 PM
+1 BillCA

to another poster...if you think "precision shooting" can be done with slugs you need more range time :)

YK

grumpycoconut
March 18, 2008, 01:00 AM
Oh I do love the slug. They are wonderful for shooting bad guys in cars. I've shot a few cars (intact ones, not the collanders found on back country roads) and slugs that went in seldom came out. Slugs also cope with windshields much better in my experience than any handgun, mid power rifle (5.56 etc) or even the sniper's oh so bitchin 308 match ammo. I've never seen a standard slug penetrate even Level II armor but the back face deformation was severe enough to make severe blunt trauma effects very likely.

Now as far as precision is concerned, I consider precision a very relative term. Sub MOA at 100 yds over open sights, not likely, but 10 out of 10 on a human sillhouette at 100 yds, you bet. That's precise enough for me considering the tool.

I'm pretty good with a gauge and on the range at my best I can clip just the hostage taker target at up to 20 ft. But that's only 1 or 2 pellets on target and 7 or 8 more that I'm still responsible for that missed the target completely.

I'll not give up my 5.56 social occassions carbine without much fuss but if the zombies come and I have to choose only one weapon, I guess I'll just have to suck up the recoil and go with the slug launching gauge.

markj
March 18, 2008, 01:14 PM
A shotgun slug is great for entertainment purposes

Yes I loved seeing them deer die :) then we ate em.

...if you think "precision shooting" can be done with slugs you need more range time

My winchester 1300 wuth a rifled barrel and the proper sabots is a bulls eye hitter at 100 yards. We use them for hunting deer, same as a 30-30 as far as accuracy. Want to come out to me range and see for yourself?

Tuckahoe
March 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
If we could pick our gunfights we would always have the perfect weapon in hand for each situation. The shotgun is an effective close range weapon no argument there. It is when the distance opens up beyond 30 yds that the slug takes a great advantage over buckshot.
Had the LAPD officers been issued slugs the North Hollywood bank robbery would have ended much faster. Body armor aside these vermin of society could not stand up to the punch of a one oz slug.

FMJparabellum
March 21, 2008, 03:25 AM
Apparently you"ve never lined up cinder blocks for execution.

And as far as accurate, I"ve watched my grandfather jump shoot running deer in in the head with 2 3/4" slugs no/scope 16 gauge. If you shoot enough its just like a long bow, distance, leading, I think he would of rather had his old pump than an A.R.

Doggieman
March 21, 2008, 04:16 AM
I use a cruiser grip so I can't use slugs :(

(I ain't shooting a slug from stomach level)

Avenger29
March 21, 2008, 03:06 PM
I use a cruiser grip so I can't use slugs

(I ain't shooting a slug from stomach level)

And that's why I use a full stock. A shotgun still has to be aimed. PGs perform poorly, unless you really know what you are doing...

MLeake
March 21, 2008, 04:44 PM
Some kid came into my local range with a pistol grip 12ga, showing off for his girlfriend. Against advice of other shooters, he tried to take an aimed shot, and proceeded to smack himself in the mouth with his shotgun.

Between that incident, and the yahoo who shot a load of birdshot and had a bunch of ricochets off the backstop, the range owner now has a "No shotguns" policy.

Of course, if he knows you, that can be waived. But the new general rule is still no shotties.

ceetee
March 21, 2008, 09:14 PM
A shotgun slug is great for entertainment purposes


Yes I loved seeing them deer die then we ate em.

And here I was... just wondering how in the heck you would "entertain" yourself with 12 ga slugs...

Doggieman
March 22, 2008, 12:19 AM
I understand why lots of people don't like cruiser grips, because a lot of lame-os use them. But don't blame the grip, blame the lame-o.

Fact is I've been firing shotguns for 20 years and can break trap all day with a standard stock. I have the strength and technique to control a cruiser grip, which I shoot from just below sternum level, right hand close to the body.

You're right, it's not as accurate as a shoulder stock, and when I shoot slugs I put the shoulder stock on. However, for my purposes it's easier to conceal in my home and maneuver with a shortie than a full-stock shotgun.

Even a skinny girl with bad technique can handle a cruiser grip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_YNm4_4nHHQ

Nnobby45
March 22, 2008, 02:52 AM
Besides large game hunting, what would be the tactical use?
My opinion is the slug has to much penetration. How could it be used by the police or a homeowner? It would penetrate right through the target and bound to hit someone or something else.

LE who are familiar with Foster type (soft lead) LE Tactical HP slugs (such as Fed. Tac), have told me that they don't tend to over penetrate human targets.

A Federal LE Officer, and later Fed. firearms instructor told me he prefered slugs because he'd rather be responsible for one projectile as opposed nine 9 00 buck--for safety and liability reasons, as well as precision. His team within the agency felt the same way--they used slugs.

Now, Brennekes (hard lead) or Sabots are a different matter where penetration is concerned and might be the best choice where a large critter that could eat you for breakfast is concerned.

Fosters from Blackbear on down. Brennekes or Sabots for Blackbear on up, including large Porcine type critters.

I don't think the deadly effectiveness of a .72 cal. slug that expands to well over an inch is in dispute. Or even the effectiveness of a hard slug that doesn't expand at all, for that matter.

workinwifdakids
March 26, 2008, 11:24 PM
First of all, there is no personal body armor that will defeat a 12 gauge slug.

Imagine something punching through your stomach and breaking your spinal column, without ripping your shirt, and you'll get the idea. As in, massive internal trauma resulting in death.

BUT - a shotgun slug will defeat bullet resistant glass, which could be a plus.

BTW - what the hell does 'tactical' even mean any more? Nothing.

Doggieman
March 26, 2008, 11:26 PM
First of all, there is no personal body armor that will defeat a 12 gauge slug.

Imagine something punching through your stomach and breaking your spinal column, without ripping your shirt, and you'll get the idea. As in, massive internal trauma resulting in death.


:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Never heard this one before

workinwifdakids
March 26, 2008, 11:47 PM
You've never heard of someone being hit while wearing armor, and sufferering internal injuries without the bullet penetrating their skin? The 'spinal cord' this was hyperbolic analogy, but the fact still stands.

Doggieman
March 26, 2008, 11:49 PM
hyperbole ^2

R1145
March 27, 2008, 12:41 AM
I carry slugs for:

- putting down injured animals;
- vehicles;
- barricades/cover;
- body armor.

We have 870s, most with 6-rd. extended mags, 6-rd. side-saddles, slings and lights. About half have slug sights, the others were upgraded from older guns and have beads only.

Since I carry an AR with a sling and a light, and my vehicle has mounts for both anyway, I carry also an older 870 with no light, sling or extended mag, loaded with four 00 buck for social work, and slugs only in the side-saddle.

I figure I'll choose the AR if I have time, but if I roll up on something going down fast like a vehicle stop or parking lot shootout, I can deploy the shotgun faster, not have to monkey with the sling, hands on the controls, find the bead and kaboom four times (x9).

Vehicle stop or guy doesn't stay down, select slug, combat load, kaboom (x6), then transition.

I used to carry only 2 or 3 slugs in the side-saddle, but one of the Wise Old Men argued that loads shouldn't be mixed lest the wrong one get pulled in the heat of battle, so I decided to go slug only. I figure that if it can be solved with buckshot, four rounds is enough.

brickeyee
March 27, 2008, 09:08 AM
If you want to stack enough layers of Kevlar you can stop anything, though at some point it will look like a winter jacket.
The problem is the resulting blunt force trauma under the Kevlar.
A high power rifle hit tothe center o the chest with only soft body armor can lead to all sorts of internalk damage, like ruptured organs.
A plate allows the force to be dissipated over a much larger area resulting in very little damage beyond some bruises.
The problem with plates is thay they are damaged when struck (often fractured).

Bullet resistant glass can be made thick enough to stop any small arm, but it gets pretty unwieldy at 3 inches and up in thickness.

Doggieman
March 27, 2008, 12:26 PM
A high power rifle hit tothe center o the chest with only soft body armor can lead to all sorts of internalk damage, like ruptured organs.


First, a high power rifle round will not be stopped with only soft body armor.

Second, while I've heard of fractured ribs and severe bruising from getting hit with a large caliber handgun round while wearing a soft vest, I've never heard of anything more.

Since getting hit with a large caliber handgun round is like getting hit with a major league fastball, I'm going to figure that getting hit with a shotgun slug is like getting hit with an aluminum bat swung pretty damn hard.

This will surely cause major discomfort, bruising and probably a broken rib or two. If it hits directly above the heart it might be enough shock to cause the heart to stop.

But I highly doubt that it will "rupture internal organs" or "go through the body and snap the spine." Organs (with the exception of the liver) are very pliable things and can deform and spring back to shape with ease. Read Fackler.

brickeyee
March 27, 2008, 01:30 PM
First, a high power rifle round will not be stopped with only soft body armor.

Stack enough layers and it WILL be stopped.
Since the blunt force trauma would be excessive nothing like this is practical and we use trauma plates to spread the impact.

But I highly doubt that it will "rupture internal organs" or "go through the body and snap the spine." Organs (with the exception of the liver) are very pliable things and can deform and spring back to shape with ease. Read Fackler.

And organs filled with liquid like hearts, stomachs, intestines, bladder or even the liver and spleen can rupture.
Blunt force trauma from beatings (often with objects) is a common cause of these types of injuries.
Even blast impact at high enough pressure levels results in internal organ damage.

Snapping the spine seems a little far, unless the impact was in the back over the spine.
At that point all bets on spinal injury are off.

Greybeard
March 30, 2008, 09:49 PM
Back in the mid 70's I was "plinking" with college roommate (whose Dad ran a automobile body shop) at their private "dump yard" in a West Texas pasture. We located a 1963 Chevy Impala with the engine removed. (This was back in the days when cars had far more steel than plastic.)

To see what it would do, I put 1-ounce Foster slug through the front grille. It subsequently went through the radiator, the (steel) firewall, the (steel) dash, through the front seat, the back seat and exited the trunk. We found the slug flattened out and finally stopped inside the heavy chrome rear bumber.

David Armstrong
March 31, 2008, 11:54 AM
if you think "precision shooting" can be done with slugs you need more range time
Well, with my Beretta 1201 I used to shoot cloverleafs at 40 yards with slugs, and could keep them in a paper plate at 100 yards. Slugs turn a good 30 yards and in weapon into a good 100 yard weapon.

Doggieman
March 31, 2008, 06:42 PM
lol for my purposes anything within a human-torso-sized target at 50 yards is precision shooting. Unless you're a military (or guerilla) sniper you'll never need to do better than that.

Lavid2002
March 31, 2008, 07:47 PM
I believe Aguila makes a short slug shell that would probably work better for HD.
They do, its called the mini-slug.I dont see why it would be "better" for home defence though...You can carry more in the magazine but thats about it. It still has the same weight, velocity, and terminal ballistics. Just doesnt mave a big wad:P

Doggieman
March 31, 2008, 09:26 PM
Just doesnt mave a big wad:P


what's mave a big wad

BillCA
April 2, 2008, 03:15 AM
what's mave a big wad

It's a typo. I'm sure he meant to say "have a big..."

The Augila mini-shells don't always feed reliably in some pump shotguns and semi-autos. For single shot and doubles they're just fine of course. Make sure they'll feed reliably before you need to use them. I found they didn't work well if the gun was tipped over at an angle.

gordo b.
April 3, 2008, 11:23 PM
I just had to say ; not much a slug can't handle within a 100 yards except stout armor! Slugs are so ferocious that I use Remington Managed recoil ones for HD because I can shoot them so fast and accurately and 1 butter soft Oz. at trans sonic velocities is gonna do the job. I use Brennekes for 4 legged things.

IdahoG36
April 4, 2008, 09:22 AM
Well, it's tactical use is simply this- one to the chest will take the fight right out of somebody. End of discussion.:D

Doc_DAK
April 4, 2008, 11:19 AM
I gotta agree with Tuckahoe: if LAPD had slugs available on 02/28/97, Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu might have done less damage, even if they weren't stopped completely.
Kind of moot now, with patrol rifles and all, but 1¼ oz. of lead turning into something with 2800+ (2¾" shell) to 3100+ (3" shell) foot-pounds of energy is pretty impressive.
As Buford T. Justice once said, "That's an attention-gettah." http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Doug_C_Maine/Smileycons/Sheriff.gif

Bob F.
April 4, 2008, 09:08 PM
Slugs, or 00 buck would end a lot of car chases. An officer ahead of the chase, with some cover, as with spike-strips, could easily take out the radiator, and other under-hood parts. Unlike spike-strips & tires, once the radiator's out and the car overheats, it's gonna STOP!

Stay safe.
Bob

BillCA
April 5, 2008, 02:54 PM
Actually, the spike strips are safer and more effective than punching holes in the radiator. You can continue to drive a car several miles after the coolant has jumped ship.

Not that a 12 gauge slug won't cause all sorts of havoc under the hood though. Batteries don't react well to bullets either and the resulting short circuit can play hob with onboard computers.

On a side note, one may ask why not use the slug on the windshield to get the driver. Windshields don't pose too much of an obstacle and you're likely to reach the driver. But then, you just created a runaway 2-ton blunt instrument that can injure innocents. It's safer to try to stop the vehicle then deal with the occupant.

Boris Bush
April 5, 2008, 03:30 PM
BillCA

Some here don't like to hear about the actual use of force so I will just cut to the chase.

I tried the shoot the car method once. The last word in the sentence before this one is the key word. One time. I used the taught method every other
time, you can guess what that might be.

hope I didn't offend anyone................

Jake M.
April 12, 2008, 10:23 AM
I understand that the Shotgun slug has tactical value. It knocks people down with one shot. I is cost effective for sure. But the weapon in general has its draw backs. Just working the pump action under stress can be difficult.

One of the guys on my department was involved in a shooting. He shot the suspect two times with a slug. However he short stroked it after the second shot and the gun malfunctioned. He thought it was broken, so the threw it on the ground. You may think that this is a simple training issue, but I can tell you that this officer was high-speed low-drag.

Boris Bush
April 12, 2008, 11:15 AM
Jake M.

So very true. I myself have short stroked a pump, more than once. What alot of people here will never realize (thank god) is what they will exactly do in a fire fight. I watched a brother run out into the middle of the road, just stand there and let loose a couple of mags. The volume of fire unleased in our direction was almost overwhelming and he never got touched! He later said "I do not know why I did that!!!" We can laugh about it now, but someone answered my prayers before that mission as well as the prayers of others...

The only real advice I could give someone is that when the elephant charges, it will be exactly how and when they never trained for it to happen and the fundamentals and basics is what will save thier lives.......

Ruthless4christ
April 12, 2008, 01:54 PM
a slug can really equal the odds. it would be my number one choice for shooting downa door, or firing at a car. one of my fav guns is a handmade single shot pistol that fires a 4.10 shotgun slug. it may be small but i promise you it would put a big whole in just about anything that gets hit.

David Armstrong
April 14, 2008, 09:48 AM
You may think that this is a simple training issue, but I can tell you that this officer was high-speed low-drag.
FWIW, high-speed low-drag does not mean one is good with all sorts of weapons. My experience is that very few people take the time and effort to properly learn to use the shotgun as a fighting tool, and that very few isntructors know how to train others with the shotgun.

Brit
April 14, 2008, 11:14 AM
In Florida, Security can get a "Waiver" to have a 12 gauge, not a Rifle, myself I would sooner have my AUG, with a 30 round magazine in it.

Having said what I would like, back to what we have, an ex (not new) Police trade in, Mossberg 500. Smooth as glass, hi vis fiber optic front sight, this replaced the bead. Cheek it, press, 30 yd hits on soft drink bottle.

I use this to walk employees from their place of business to their POVs at closing time, in the dark, but very well lit parking lot on a main road.

Reduced velocity slugs are in the tube, 5 of them. Since the Mossberg and I have been taking this walk, no one loiters, they used too. Level 11 vest, and a Glock 19 as well.

Jake M.
April 14, 2008, 11:43 PM
Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use. I know there are pros to using the weapon but I will bring up some cons. When you are using slugs you are basically using a heavy recoil, short range, manually operated, low round capacity rifle. I just think that there are better weapon systems out there. All though I would take one into combat if it was the only long gun I had around.

Hoss 48
April 16, 2008, 03:58 PM
Well it has the knock down power for about anyone or anything you might run across. It's also great for taking out a deadbolt in a heavy door. Even at close range the buckshot stays in a pretty tight pattern, it wont disperse right away. Personally for home defense I would pick a nice revolver. I have a snub nose 357. Good house gun for close range, knockdown power, and only one hand to operate.

rantingredneck
April 16, 2008, 05:49 PM
knockdown power

No such animal.....

ISP2605
April 16, 2008, 10:12 PM
In 1988 during a shoot out with a subject one of our guys was armed with a 12 ga shooting 1 oz foster slugs. He hit the guy at about 30 ft from the side in the left upper arm nearly removing the arm. The slug then entered the chest taking out a rib. It then continued thru both lungs and clipping the top of the heart and removing the aorta, then taking out a rib as it exited the chest cavity. It then took out most of the bicept on the right upper arm. The slug was never recovered. DRT. When we opened the chest cavity it looked like everything above the diaphram had been run thru a blender.
Slugs work and work well.

Samurai
April 17, 2008, 01:10 PM
You forgot the most important thing: A 12-ga. slug works the way no ordinary can opener does! It's perfect for ricing potatoes, peeling watermelons, juicing oranges, heck... just about any common culinary task!

David Armstrong
April 18, 2008, 09:58 AM
Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use.
No disagreement from me. That is the biggest problem, I feel, with the shotgun---too many people think it IS easy to use, while it is probably one of the hardest to use well. It pays you back by being a great weapon, but you have to learn how to work it right to get that success.

sjsgt
April 20, 2008, 10:16 PM
Training is the key to any tactical senario. Most people and law enforcement professionals hate to shoot heavy shotguns. So they do not train with the weapon regularly. A proper shotgun slug, used by a trained person, will end any CQB situation. A rifle bullet will pass through the target at extremely close range and most times not cause the desired effect. The shotgun slug, moving slower and with greater mass, is perfect.
It's no different than hunting any dangerous game. An aimed shot from a trained person, with the proper equipment, will usually end the threat. A charging brown bear or a crazy bad guy. Only the untrained person, thinks a shotgun slug is for Hollywood movies.

kennybs plbg
April 20, 2008, 11:44 PM
Training is not required to shoot a slug proficiently, just practice.
I'd put my money on a deer hunter's shot placement over a LEO with a few weeks training anyday.

kenny b

Double Naught Spy
April 21, 2008, 06:34 AM
Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use.

I never thought of a pump shotgun as being difficult to use. The whole process is quite simple. It can be screwed up, but that isn't a function of the complexity of the mechanism. It is a function of the shooter not completing a very simple task.

With that said, the use of slugs has nothing to do with the complexity of the platform.

David Armstrong
April 21, 2008, 12:35 PM
The shotgun is not difficult to use. It is difficult to use it well enough to get the most out of it. Few people pattern the guns, learn to use different loads, how to utilize the zone effects, etc.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 21, 2008, 12:59 PM
What's there to know:

1. You just have to rack it to scare away the BG
2. You can't miss
3. It will knock down the BG if you do shoot like the hammer of Thor (preferred analogy for gun lists).

Oh, wait - never mind!

I have had this told me by very smart gun folks. :D

BTW, for something else I was working on, I read a description of a police officer short stroking his pump under extreme stress. If an instrument has the possiblility of needing a physical manipulation that is subject to such stress effects - one might argue that it is difficult to use given standard human factors analyses.

David Armstrong
April 21, 2008, 03:36 PM
BTW, for something else I was working on, I read a description of a police officer short stroking his pump under extreme stress. If an instrument has the possiblility of needing a physical manipulation that is subject to such stress effects - one might argue that it is difficult to use given standard human factors analyses.
Short-stroking seems to be fairly common, Glenn. Every course I've attended or given it has reared its ugly head. That's one of the reasons I preferred my Beretta 1201 for serious social shotgunning.

Boris Bush
April 21, 2008, 06:28 PM
DA is correct. Short stroking is very easy to do under stress, slow down and read that again. UNDER STRESS, not shooting static targets at 10 yards. I have short stroked more than one time under the lesser stress of pin shooting, and have seen even the best pump gunners I know do it atleast one time or more.

It can and will happen no matter how good or fast you think you are.

ISP2605
April 21, 2008, 06:37 PM
We found that when the shooter is standing on their hind 2 legs that short stroking rarely occurs. However, when the LEO goes into a position that is behind cover, crouched, squatted, or angled in a non-normal position that the incidents of short stroking goes up. Even if the person is very experienced with the shotgun and had been in numerous prior shooting situations that obstacles experienced when in "off" positions can greatly increase the potential for short stroking.

Double Naught Spy
April 21, 2008, 09:15 PM
We found that when the shooter is standing on their hind 2 legs that short stroking rarely occurs.

Do your shooters ever stand on their front two legs? Is this something out of "Those Amazing Dobermans"?

ISP2605
April 22, 2008, 07:09 AM
Do your shooters ever stand on their front two legs? Is this something out of "Those Amazing Dobermans"?

An old phrase, probably before your time. Means as opposed to kneeling, prone, etc.

Desert01
April 22, 2008, 09:21 AM
David Armstrong:
Short-stroking seems to be fairly common, Glenn. Every course I've attended or given it has reared its ugly head. That's one of the reasons I preferred my Beretta 1201 for serious social shotgunning.

While this thread started off talking about slugs I like the turn it has taken. Many hard core shotgunners think the only shotgun you can trust your life with is the pump (insert brand). They all have fairly decent reasons for thier position. If you consider the Full Line of munitions availible for the shotgun: breaching, less-lethal, reduced recoil and launcher pumps do rule. Their versitility also makes them a top chioce for "tuners and gear heads"
http://pro-patria.us/PP2.jpg

If you are looking for a purely defensive shotgun for the average shooter or LEO/Mil the semi-auto shotgun has a lot of advantages. My first shotgun was a Remington 870. I purchased it after 6 years in the Army. I thought it it was great, but would on ocasion find myself wondering why my shotgun wouldn't fire. Why? Because I was so used to the manual of arms of the M-16. pull trigger, repeat. I soon picked up a 11-87 and found my groove.

Semi's are easier to train in todays semi auto world. Pumping is one less thing to try and do under stress or in positions such has prone were pumping can be a real pain. I well maintained semi shotgun with proper ammo will serve 95% of all defensive shooters needs.

Only when you get into some of the extreams that the military and some police encounter or special munitions being employed do you HAVE to HAVE a pump.

Big Don
April 22, 2008, 11:58 AM
My first experience with slugs was a combat shotgun course given by TFTT. I was using a Winchester Defender with a bead sight and was amazed that I could hit a human-shaped target with any accuracy 25+ yards away. After that, I upgraded to a Benelli M-1 with ghost ring sights and have no trouble putting big holes in the "A" zone on a regular basis. I have the mag loaded with 00 buck, with 3 buck and 3 slugs in the Side Saddle. (It is my primary home defense weapon.) Among the many reasons I purchased the Benelli was the ability to "select slug" quickly and easily.

Once I started designing scenarios for combat matches, I began to incorporate slugs into just about each one that involved shotguns. What really surprised me was the number of shooters who had never shot slugs in the matches, as well as the number who had never even shot a slug round! The payoff was in seeing them realize the accuracy they could achieve with their own shotguns, even with that little bead sight. Now, everyone knows to have at least 10 slugs for each match and they all look forward to using them.

My point? We who inhabit TFL are tuned into a lot more firearms-related issues than the "average" shooter. We need to let those other shooters know about items just like this whole thread. I think almost everyone who has responded to the OP agrees that slugs are an awesome tool that had very real advantages when used properly. Now we need to get our fellow good guys to know that and train with these tools to make them better shooters too.

nemoaz
April 23, 2008, 09:22 PM
I was using a Winchester Defender with a bead sight and was amazed that I could hit a human-shaped target with any accuracy 25+ yards away. After that, I upgraded to a Benelli M-1 with ghost ring sights and have no trouble putting big holes in the "A" zone on a regular basis.I rarely carry a shotgun at work (carry a carbine instead), but I qual every quarter with an 870. This includes shooting slugs at 25 yards. I can easily put five slugs in the left side of the face (aiming at the left eye) with any rack grade 870s I've shot. A shotgun with decent sights and a slug is a fairly accurate weapon at reasonable ranges. Headshots are definitely possible at even longer ranges.

The purpose of a slug? Putting a very big hole in someone who needs lead therapy.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 24, 2008, 09:17 AM
For my own curiousity, is there a set of documented instances where folks have switched from buckshot to slugs and that aided in a positive outcome?

Or is it a hypothetical?

Big Don
April 24, 2008, 07:20 PM
Glenn,
Re: switching from buck to slug
Yes. Had I shot the target with buck, I would have gotten a 5 second procedural penalty for not using a slug, as required. :D

BillCA
April 24, 2008, 11:33 PM
Glenn,

I don't know of any list of documented cases where switching to a slug in an actual incident was performed.

I have, however, talked to a sheriff's deputy who was faced with an armed rape suspect in an RV. With backup 20 minutes away the perp had a young woman inside the RV and had fired out a window. The deputy loaded a pair of slugs and once he spotted the woman at the rear of the RV, he returned fire through the RV's side, just below the window. No trial was necessary.

mellow_c
April 25, 2008, 02:27 AM
I just had to post this. I've got a single shot 20 gauge shot gun that I got for $100 brand new. I like it alot, it was my first shot gun.

My point is this.

It can be turned from a Nice clay and small game hunting shooter, into a one shot, huge animal killer, general body armor defeater, cover blower, by simply adding a rifled slug.


I need to shoot more slugs!