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38snapcaps
March 11, 2008, 11:43 AM
On the news was an interview with a witness to two punks entering a house across the street with guns and he heard shots fired. He called 911 and the dispatcher told him to run to his basement and stay there as the police were going to lock down the entire neighborhood while SWAT attempted to find the shooters.

This just makes me boil over, the government is now telling ADULTS to cower in fear while the "authorities" take care of the threat. We have a whole generation of kids being taught in public schools to not take care of themselves or take responsiblity for their own safety. Rely on the government for your safety!

This country would have never become anything if our society acted like it does today. We never would have settled the land, never would have beat back dictators in the 1940's, or stared down the Soviets. Our people are becoming (or allready are) a nation of quivering, cowardly sheep, and are herded for the slaughter!

Now, tell me what would YOU have said to the 911 dispatcher and what would you have done.

Dave P
March 11, 2008, 11:48 AM
I hear ya - around here, it seems that every time someone passes gas, the local schools get locked down and searched :barf:

davlandrum
March 11, 2008, 12:27 PM
Move to second floor window where I could keep an eye on the house, weapon ready but on the floor.

You don't think the dispatcher just was trying to keep an external party from getting shot by SWAT?

Most gun owners, and I include myself in this, are not trained to go clear a house, by themselves...

By the way, what was your answer to your question?

kayakersteve
March 11, 2008, 12:31 PM
No thanks - I wont cower in my basement! I will be in a strategic mode, but wont stand by a window with visible weapon as I might just become a perpetrator to the cops. I would protect my family and self, but not worry about outside belongings at that moment. Would definately stay inside of home until dust settles - Heck if the cops want to risk getting shot by a bad guy and do the hard work of finding the BG, I wont stop them.

Sriracha
March 11, 2008, 12:50 PM
I'm not sure which part of that upset you:

1) "Locking down the neighborhood": I suppose it could be annoying that the government is temporarily limiting your freedom to come and go as you please.

2) "authorities taking care of the threat" : The police are our employees, and they are merely doing the dangerous job that we taxpayers pay them to do. Are you saying that you would rather have armed residents of the neighborhood go outside carrying weapons and try to apprehend the armed criminals? Do you not see any disadvantages with that plan, such as the possible lack of training in the average citizen?

So, please tell us what you would have done in your ideal society. If all you mean is that the police should continue chasing the suspects but not "lock down" the neighborhood, then I concede that you may have a point.

CPTMurdoc30
March 11, 2008, 01:06 PM
Call in an air strike on the house with the perps in it. That is what would happen in my happy world. If we can hit a school buss moving at 22,000mph then I think they can hit a house that is sitting still.

davlandrum
March 11, 2008, 01:17 PM
never would have beat back dictators in the 1940's,

Uh - that was the Armed Forces - trained to do their job and doing it (kinda like the police in this case)

stared down the Soviets

Uh - that was the Armed Forces again.

For the majority of people (who do not own guns) - the basement is a good safe place to be if a fire fight starts on the street.

GeorgeF
March 11, 2008, 01:22 PM
Well, the basement is where I'd head first - thats where the safes are.

THEN I would meander back upstairs and keep an eye out for what's going on.

38snapcaps
March 11, 2008, 01:33 PM
Yeah, I guess it would be appropriate for me answer my own question:

I would WANT to tell the dispatcher I am fully capable of defending myself and will remain in my home but I will not hide in my basement, but I think in reality I would say nothing but get my family together, lock doors, and arm myself. I would certainly not hide in my basement, what do I have to be afraid of? "A fully armed man has his possessions secure".

My main point is not the loss of freedom to go out for a walk, but the authoritarian attitude of the police department that they feel they can totally lock down a whole neighborhood at their command with no thought that the citizens of said neighborhood may be quite able to take care of themselves.

If you saw the news clip you could see the guy (around age 50) was totally ready to give in to any command as long as it was "for his safety". He should have had a little guts. What, he isn't able or willing to defend his home or family? He's going to let someone else do it for him?

Lewis & Clark, Teddy Roosevelt, George Patton, Wyatt Earp, all would laugh as such a notion. My neighbor, an 82 yr. old WW II Marine sure wouldn't hide in his basement. He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.

This just seems to me to be another example of incremental police state socialism and another case of conditioning the sheep to rely on and obey the "authorities".

davlandrum
March 11, 2008, 02:16 PM
Lewis & Clark, Teddy Roosevelt, George Patton, Wyatt Earp, all would laugh as such a notion

Probably, but even in their day, those were not average Americans.

My neighbor, an 82 yr. old WW II Marine sure wouldn't hide in his basement. He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.

I think that totally disrespects all those that have worn the uniform.

If the dispatcher had said "stay in the house" versus "the basement", would this even be a discussion?

Sorry this got under your skin, 38, but honestly you are making sweeping generalizations and out of context historic references for effect.

While no one can understate the sacrifices of our Veteran's of WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the one fact no one mentions is that there was a draft, so many of the people ended up in uniform because they had to be there. Once there, they were brave and selfless, and made our nation what it is. I served my entire career with volunteers who had a choice and decided to go in harm's way. I would bet, if there was a draft and everyone had to serve, you would see the same great service that people think is lost.

kayakersteve
March 11, 2008, 03:07 PM
So, please tell us what you would have done in your ideal society. If all you mean is that the police should continue chasing the suspects but not "lock down" the neighborhood, then I concede that you may have a point.

I am not diminishing the challenging job a police officer faces daily. They work hard for little income. I support police and am friends with many - I was in the Chautauqua County Sheriff's dept. as a CO for 7 years so I can speak with some experience. We should lock down jails, not schools, neighboroods, etc.
My problem, is I dont believe in the Lockdown mentality of society - They lockdown my children's school or a mall to get a job done, but I think getting the kids out instead of keeping them locked in a crime scene that police likely may not have in control can be a disaster. Get them the hell out of danger immediately if it exists.

Don H
March 11, 2008, 05:58 PM
Actually, the basement is the most defensible and bulletproof space in my house.

alligator94
March 11, 2008, 08:27 PM
Maybe the dispatcher knew that his gunsafe was in his basement:D

hogdogs
March 11, 2008, 08:31 PM
i would stay right in my living room... guns sitting right next to the 'puter desk with the phone on it. I know of few basements that have either a decent exit or better cover than the home above them.
Brent

Capt Charlie
March 11, 2008, 08:53 PM
i would stay right in my living room... guns sitting right next to the 'puter desk with the phone on it.
Brent
The dispatcher's advice was sound, and here's why. When SWAT enters the picture in a situation like this, they're in "active shooter" mode. They're not in condition red; they're in condition bright, florescent, glowing red (and that's only because I can't think of a condition higher than red :D) Safeties are off and they're looking for a fight.

Now, you've got the wife and kiddies huddled all safe behind your wood framed walls, SWAT flushes the BG's and a firefight ensues. SWAT's trained to avoid collateral damage, but it's highly unlikely that any BG is going to give a rat's behind where his rounds go. Now given the likelihood of bullets buzzing around like a hive of P.O.'d bees, I think I'd want my family behind something more bullet proof than the average home's walls (granted: brick homes are the exception, but those still have windows)

I know of few basements that have either a decent exit or better cover than the home above them.
Man, the one thing I really... REALLY hate when I'm clearing a building is going down steps into a cellar. It's a fatal funnel with no other way in. So from a defensive standpoint, it's the one place I'd prefer to make a stand ;).

kgpcr
March 11, 2008, 08:55 PM
Ok guys lets try this. There is going to be some shooting going on the the hood. THIS IS THE POLICE. PLEASE GO OUTSIDE AND SIT ON THE FRONT PORCH. That makes far more sense than telling people to get where they will not get hit with the bullets the a**holes may start popping of. Far better to go sit on the front porch!! as a Marine who has seen bullets fly i will be the first one to take cover. I will also be armed and stand ready to take care of business!!

Glen J
March 11, 2008, 09:28 PM
I love living in Florida, but there's times I wish I HAD a basement, like when a tornado is coming through, or if some BG's are out there shooting up the neighberhood. Great place to go and set up your own bunker.

FrontSight
March 12, 2008, 09:44 AM
Man, you know bullets can go thru walls...who knows where the hell they could start flying...

You wanna be out in the open, that's your call. me? i'd choose a VERY thick brick wall to be behind, mostly shielded from strays, with just an eye to watch, probably holding a rifle, but then again a police sniper from 500 yards away could mistake me for one of them and blow my brains out.

The 911 operator has no idea what these guys might do, what kind of weapons they have...remember north hollywood? people were injured blocks away. or you could wind up being taken hostage and the situtation becomes much, much worse. imho, the operator gave you the best advice for your own health, as well as for the situation at hand.

There's a big difference b/t being chicken and being smart/realistic. You gotta know when to hold em...know when to fold em...well, you know the rest

:D

Crosshair
March 12, 2008, 10:35 AM
I'd grab my PC-9 (Keep it out of sight of course), keep the phone with me, and observe the neighborhood through the windows. What better way to keep collateral damage down than by keeping the police up to date.

Allstar
March 12, 2008, 11:18 AM
The reason they say that is because they don't want a wild round hitting you. It isn't they want you to coward. Also with the team comes spotters on the scene if they see you with a gun in the window, all I can tell you is now you are a suspect until the matter is resloved. These aren't always done, but are definately trained in a lot areas. Be smart, there is a reason that person on the phone is telling you to respond a certain way.

David Armstrong
March 12, 2008, 12:31 PM
I would certainly not hide in my basement, what do I have to be afraid of?
Errant rounds from high-powered rifles zipping through your walls.
My main point is not the loss of freedom to go out for a walk, but the authoritarian attitude of the police department that they feel they can totally lock down a whole neighborhood at their command with no thought that the citizens of said neighborhood may be quite able to take care of themselves.
Nothing authoritarian about it. The dispatch gave you good advice to improve your safety. As for taking care of yourselves, vigilante justice went out of favor long ago.
He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.
I've got at least two generations of experience that would disagree with that idea.

markj
March 12, 2008, 02:41 PM
My neighbor, an 82 yr. old WW II Marine sure wouldn't hide in his basement. He is probably the last generation of real men, real Americans, that believes in self reliance.

:) tell him thanks for his service. Not to many ww2 folks out there. MyGrandpa was a Bataan survivor, look it up. Lost 3 or 4 uncles depending on if you count insanity after normandy a casulaty.

Nephew is a marine, he would go look for em and he is trained for that stuff. My family will be in the basement so no errant bullets kill em off. I care a lot for em you see and safety if always first and foremost.

Musketeer
March 12, 2008, 02:46 PM
RIGHT! 911 should have told him to grab a couple guns and run across the street to confront them!

Seriously, with police on the way what do you expect the 911 operator to tell someone to do?

Glenn E. Meyer
March 12, 2008, 02:52 PM
Nephew is a marine, he would go look for em and he is trained for that stuff. My family will be in the basement so no errant bullets kill em off. I care a lot for em you see and safety if always first and foremost.

Marines are trained for combat and not law enforcement. He should go in the basement and defend it. Besides, if he just totes a gun and starts searching in the street - guess who might look like a bad guy.

markj
March 12, 2008, 03:05 PM
Besides, if he just totes a gun and starts searching in the street - guess who might look like a bad guy.


I will tell him thatwhen he comes back home :) Cousins got out of the service went right into the local police force after attending the school in Nebr.

He is trained to clear a house, they do that a lot. I do belive he would be in the house protecting the ones there, I was being a little silly there. :)

I also have some training but would not leave the house as my first job is to protect those I love first and foremost. Let my dogs have em :) they need the protein :)

Glenn E. Meyer
March 12, 2008, 03:08 PM
I remember this anecdote in a mixed exercise with soldiers and cops. They go to clear a house in training. One guy goes forward and says cover me.

The cops aim their guns at where he is going. The marines shot the crap out of that direction.

Musketeer
March 12, 2008, 03:10 PM
Glenn sees the subtle difference between Marine training in house clearing and LEO training.

markj
March 12, 2008, 03:10 PM
The marines shot the crap out of that direction.

Less casualities thatway.Yep they need a bit O retraining there. Weapons suck too Iwas told compared to what the marines are now using.
See that around the corner rifle? I need one of them. :)

BigDaddy
March 12, 2008, 04:13 PM
Nope, we don't have many basements in Austin, either. I have a wife and 4 year old daughter. They are my responsibility. I will grab our Mossy 12ga and give it to my wife, send her to the "safe room" then grab my AR and follow her, have everyone keep low until everything cools down. Cowardice? not at all. Good sense? I like to think so.

--Dave

DWARREN123
March 12, 2008, 09:42 PM
Say nothing, do what you have to do.

ActivShootr
March 13, 2008, 09:15 AM
I think the basement thing is just the police department's disclaimer. If you get hit during a firefight they can say "Well, we told him to get in the basement but he chose to sit on his porch with a Budweiser and a shotgun."

Musketeer
March 13, 2008, 09:24 AM
My cousins were dumb enough to watch the police gunfight out of their second story window in Jamaica Queens almost 20 years ago. Good thing they were on the second floor because the first wound up with some bullet holes...

Generally bullets do not go through the earth and foundation from the outside. The advice was for the safety of the people nearby and warranted given gunfire was already being heard.

MLeake
March 13, 2008, 09:30 AM
If the police are on their way, and especially if SWAT is on the way, it's safer for everybody if the citizenry stay indoors and behind cover.

It's safer for the citizenry, in case there is a crossfire. Bullets may miss targets or go through light masonry and hit anybody nearby.

It's safer for the police, because they will have less of their attention distracted by trying to figure out if the onlookers or neighbors are BG's, and will be able to focus on the house in question. Then again, it's safer for the neighbors to not run the risk of being mistaken for BG's.

There are some places where police response is likely to take a long time, maybe too long a time. For instance, one of my cousins used to live in an area where anticipated police response was something like 20 minutes (semi-rural, and a small PD). This estimate was provided by one of her local police officers, who advised her to keep a gun at hand (since her then-teenage son was being threatened by local thugs). In such a case, assuming I knew the neighbors (so I know they aren't running a meth lab, or so I can tell resident from home invader, etc), then I might have to consider providing direct assistance. However, I am not trained for house clearing, and have to accept that I could make matters worse, by adding an armed variable to the mix.

If I did feel like something had to be done by me, and now, now, now, I'd make sure to let the 911 dispatcher know that I was going over there, and give them a good description of myself.

In any case, if I had loved ones in my own home, I'd want them in the safest room possible (IE furthest from the action), and probably have them armed with my 12ga and a handgun or two, plus a cell phone.

Creature
March 13, 2008, 09:56 AM
The dispatcher gave very sound advice. Period.

It's not about cowering in the basment because big brother is coming to put down an insurrection...it is about taking cover versus taking concealment. Those that you decry are public servants, not jack-booted storm troopers.

Whats more, the dispatcher gave you a recommendation, not a direct order. So, it is your perogative to stay topside to watch events unfold, but that decision is not a sound one as far as taking the defensive.

38snapcaps, it sounds to me like like you have some very misplaced indignation to work out.

DesertDawg
March 13, 2008, 10:10 AM
About 15 years ago, when I was still an active duty LEO, I guess that I "locked down" an entire neighborhood. There had been a gang-related shooting which ended up with 4 gang members dead (Believe it or not, but the incident started at a Baptismal party, when a rival gang tried to "crash" the party!)

There were numerous residents who came out to see what was going on, and since there was the possibility of the shooters still being in the area, I asked whoever I saw to PLEASE go back inside their homes and lock the doors. I didn't direct them to their "basements", nor did I even think of telling them to ARM themselves in their residences. That would have been entirely up to THEM to do! All I did was to try to "sterilize" the area to a certain extent, and to cut down on the number of victims by ASKING the residents to go inside. Later, when none of the shooters had been found, my partner and I made sure to knock on doors and tell the residents that we were going to leave the area. I also explained what had taken place, and was THANKED by many of those residents.

It's sure easy to "bash" the police! Having been a LEO, it often amazes me at how little credit is given to those who have chosen that profession! Instead, the less than 1% who are "rotten apples" get pushed into the limelight as an "example", while the 99% of the GOOD ones get NO notice at all!

Doc_DAK
March 13, 2008, 10:17 AM
It's safer for the citizenry, in case there is a crossfire. Bullets may miss targets or go through light masonry and hit anybody nearby.Yep. "It's not the bullet with your name on it, it's all the ones marked 'to whom it may concern'."

+1 for what DesertDawg said, too.

garryc
March 13, 2008, 10:24 AM
i'd go to the basement even if they didn't say so. Bullets can't wonder through sandstone walls. Me with the AR, boy with a shotty, wife with her pistol and thousands of rounds in the basement-- good place to be.

markj
March 13, 2008, 04:28 PM
It's sure easy to "bash" the police! Having been a LEO,

Thanks for your duty sir, I have cousins on the local force and I am told things are way different today than 20 years ago. Both can retire one will this year he is my age. We sued to go out and cause heck when younger :)

He sure does look a lot older than me tho. Way more wrinkels and creases, he also does accident investigation.

Colt Delta Elite
March 19, 2008, 06:39 PM
38 Snapped Cap: doesn't seem you got the validation you were looking for.

The responses on this one really brought out the reasonable level-headed folks on the TFL.

Bogie
March 19, 2008, 06:55 PM
Well, having lived in a "border" area in a major city...

I'd be on the basement steps with a shotgun... If someone's gonna start shooting, I want to be behind something that'll stop rounds...

And remember - more and more departments are buying automatic stuff, up to and including .50BMG... And I'll bet their training budgets don't have the ammo covered for training for proper fire control.

rem870hunter
March 19, 2008, 07:17 PM
me and mine would get somewhere inside our house. either the basement or one of the second floor rooms and make sure to lock the windows and doors. away from any windows or other areas that i can be seen from. anything unauthorized that enters may be in trouble. 12 ga. in my hands and the g/f would have the .22 semi. with 2 loaded .50 muzzleloaders as backup.

Colt Delta Elite
March 19, 2008, 08:12 PM
kayakersteve: Heck if the cops want to risk getting shot by a bad guy and do the hard work of finding the BG, I wont stop them.

Yeah, that's what they do. I'm sure they'll appreciate your non-intervention.

38 Snapped: "A fully armed man has his possessions secure".

No, just means he has a gun. Having a fishing rod does not mean you'll be having seafood for dinner.

Snapped: attitude of the police department that they feel they can totally lock down a whole neighborhood at their command with no thought that the citizens of said neighborhood may be quite able to take care of themselves.

1. the dispatcher (not police) said lock-down would take place. Did it even actually ocurr?
2. would you have been happier if dispatcher said: "I'm sure you can take care of it yourself"?

Snapped: you could see the guy (around age 50) was totally ready to give in to any command as long as it was "for his safety".

It's called wisdom. He was still alive to be interviewed. You should watch and learn.

CrossHair: keep the phone with me, and observe the neighborhood through the windows. What better way to keep collateral damage down than by keeping the police up to date.

Your's was the only post that made me laugh. I'm sure SWAT keeps your # on speed dial as a command center for situational updates and operations coordination. Did you never get to be Capt Kirk when you played with the other kids?

Stevie-Ray
March 20, 2008, 03:30 PM
Every once in a while, we'll see a helicopter with searchlight circling the neighborhood, and of course I always call the cops. Police in this area are smart enough to not issue demands, they generally say something to the effect of "Yes, we're looking for somebody. We suggest you stay in your homes til we find him." Not an unreasonable request and certainly not GET INTO YOUR BASEMENT AND LOCK ALL YOUR DOORS AND WINDOWS. People are going to do what they want; some will cower, some will dim the lights and keep an eye out, (like me) and of course some boneheads will even go hunting and think they can do a better job than the cops. I'm pretty sure that this is what police are trying to prevent no matter what they say. Ours are generally just a bit more genial than, say, Detroit's.:D

mordis
March 23, 2008, 11:53 AM
Sriricha, your sorely mistaken about the untrained citizen thing. Fact is, alot armed citizens practice there marksmanship, if not other tactics a hell of a lot more the most common police do. I know this as a fact becuase, due to my families political nature i know alot of police in the area, and i have asked many of them how often they practice.

Almost 99% of the time the answere was 12hours a year. Thats it. Thats not alot of training, and it dosent take much to figure out that alot of armed citizens practice more then they do.

kgpcr
March 23, 2008, 12:23 PM
If i were a LEO and i saw a guy in a house with a gun i migh wonder if the perp broke in to that house and was looking to see who is out there.

springmom
March 25, 2008, 04:02 PM
Well, since nobody in the Houston area has a basement..... :D

But apart from that, Capt. Charlie's post is spot on. Your house, even if it has brick facing or hardiplank, is not exactly the greatest cover in a firefight. You stand next to a window and watch, you're increasing your chances of catching a stray bullet rather remarkably.

Springmom

markj
March 25, 2008, 04:22 PM
the Houston area

I was down there during a frost warning :) folks were covering the lawns and getting firewood at a unheard of price. :) I was in short sleeves.....


Best practise is call 911 and keep the family safe. Poining a loaded weapon at someone is a no no and you can go to jail and or loose the weapon as the leo confiscate it.

Nephew says to go after them is against the law and he wouldnt do it (Marine). He would get the rest in the basemant and protect the entry points. Keep em out in other words not go after em. Sound advise.

Mannlicher
March 26, 2008, 06:06 PM
why don't the cops just put the crimianls in 'time out'?

Doggieman
March 26, 2008, 07:03 PM
Honestly I don't see the problem with what the 911 person said. Would you rather he/she tell everyone who calls in to "get a high powered rifle, station yourself at a window and shoot anything that looks suspicious"? I don't think so.

This is much ado about nothing at all, IMHO. Or do you just not like strangers telling you what to do? Seems a little juvenile. You can elect to follow the dispatcher's advice, or you can ignore it. There's no need to get all upset about it.

:confused: