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bt 223
March 8, 2008, 10:18 PM
About a week ago I was home instead of at church due to the flu. While sitting on the couch, I looked out the window and saw a person dressed all in black, walking away from a vehicle I didn't recognize, with an AR-15 at his shoulder pointed at my neighbors house. My first thought was that it might be an airsoft, but there was no discolored tip. I immediately went and retrieved my own AR that I keep loaded, hammer down on an empty chamber. I put a shell into the chamber, put it on safe, and looked back out another window. Only through the scope on 9 power could I tell that his AR had a dark blue tip. I immediately dropped my rifle but continued to watch. Shortly another boy came around the far side of the house with a clear airsoft, and their "battle" ensued. Both boys were about 16-17. This scared me, not just because of what it looked like was going on at first, but what I was prepared to do if it had been real, and shots had been fired.

I feel I acted reasonably well all things considered. Had it been a real incident it would have ended quickly. I have learned much by this incident and hope others can as well. Feel free to critique me, but remember it all happened in about 10 seconds.

SLOMountaineer
March 8, 2008, 10:22 PM
What's to stop bad guys from putting colored plastic tips on their REAL guns to get people to be complacent?

jfrey123
March 8, 2008, 10:39 PM
I would've done the same brother. Might have even had less patience than you, being young and quick to act as I am. Good job verifying your target. :cool:

grey sky
March 9, 2008, 02:43 AM
Good job. Know your target and whats beyond.

Now, were to get those orange tips?:D

KD5NRH
March 9, 2008, 03:12 AM
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=783

Not orange, but close.

Of course, just some blaze orange Duracoat on the flash hider would have a similar effect. I've wanted to make some cheap guns into flashy multicolored custom plinkers, but the cost of buying several colors of Gunkote or Duracoat has kept me putting it off.

Edited to add: Missed these the first time - http://www.cjweapons.com/aspcart45/prodetails.asp?prodid=319&start=1

Fremmer
March 9, 2008, 03:18 AM
I immediately went and retrieved my own AR that I keep loaded, hammer down on an empty chamber.

Hammer down??? :confused:

scsov509
March 9, 2008, 03:28 AM
Hammer down???

As in not cocked so that there is no tension on the hammer. That's the same way I store pretty much everything I own.

Tamara
March 9, 2008, 10:13 AM
Thus far the Airsoft fatalities have mostly been involving law enforcement and victims who are unlikely to draw massive public sympathy (such as 7-11 stickup artists with a poor choice of sidearm.)

It's only a matter of time, however, before some photogenic suburbanite youth gets sparked by Joe or Jane CCW, and then the feces will meet the oscillating air circulator for sure.

Kenpo
March 9, 2008, 10:56 AM
What's to stop bad guys from putting colored plastic tips on their REAL guns to get people to be complacent?

There's an unsettling thought. A moments hesitation is all they would get, but they may be enough.

I got a toy AR for Christmas as a kid. It looked so cool, other than that geeky orange tip. What was Matel thinking... that didn't look real at all. So, I cut it off. Ahhh... stupid kid.

Murdock
March 9, 2008, 12:05 PM
My brother has been a cop in a large southern city for almost 30 years. He was a SWAT member and taught officer survival in the academy, in addition to regular patrol duties.

He responded to a call that a man was pointing a pistol at automobiles from a street corner. When he arrived he cautiously approached the suspect, who reacted in a startled manner, and turned party away as if attempting to hide something. My brother drew his service weapon, a hi-cap Smith .40, and pointed it at the suspect. The suspect -- a teenager -- ignored my brother's order to show his hands, which was shouted repeatedly. The suspect then began moving his hands down his leg, attempting to arrest the fall of a solid object that was obviously sliding down the front of his trouser leg. The suspect was ordered repeatedly to "freeze" and "show his hands" but did not obey. When his hands got down to the end of his trousers, the butt of a 1911 emerged. The only reason he was not killed at that point was that my brother recognized the "1911" as a "Marksman" BB pistol, a copy of the 1911, because we had one as kids.

It would have been a justifiable shoot of a YBM in a southern city by a white cop. My brother is an excellent marksman, and it would have been fatal, I have no doubt.

By the grace of God the kid lived to survive a major ass chewing by my brother in front of the kid's parents. It began with "I almost killed your son today." My brother has enough ugly memories related to his police service. I'm glad that killing that dumb kid isn't one of them.

I think you handled your situation just fine. Did you consider an ass chewing?

Erik
March 9, 2008, 02:57 PM
"What's to stop bad guys from putting colored plastic tips on their REAL guns to get people to be complacent?"

Nothing, and some have already figured out that representing real guns as toys may be advantageous, especially in instances where they think enough to "flash" the toy often enough that folks become accustomed to it.

bt 223
March 9, 2008, 02:58 PM
Almost called the cops to let them handle any chewing, but I didn't.
One thing I would do different next time

bt 223
March 9, 2008, 03:07 PM
As to the "Hammer Down" question, it also makes the AR quick to deploy in a home defense situation, pull the charging handle and your ready to roll. Also my kids could flip the safety, but are not old enough to be able to charge it.

ActivShootr
March 9, 2008, 06:20 PM
I would let the kids know that people are watching. Don't tell him you had him in the crosshairs but someting like "If someone didn't know you guys were just playing they might call the cops." would get the message across.

Double Naught Spy
March 9, 2008, 07:07 PM
You spotted a threat and then took defensive action, retrieving your own weapon and then covered the threat with your own weapon and because of its sighting system (the scope), you were able to re-identify the threat as a non-threat faux combatant. Aside maybe from not calling the cops because you had an AR15 carrying ninja in your yard, I think you did very well.

Of course, had it been a real ninja emergency...

DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
March 9, 2008, 08:36 PM
BT 223, what you did demonstrated a responsible response to a potential threat. You did not act rashly, and that should be commended. Luckily, most gun owners have a similar frame of mind, or there would be far more senseless tragedies than there are every year. Airsoft users SHOULD be aware of their appearance, if they desice tio play in strange neighborhoods, and especially if they choose to appear as a potential threat by removing or painting the orange tip. Common sense to the fore, they should think ahead and perhaps choose to play airsoft in parks or away from people who could mistake what they are up to as much as practicable, if for no other reason as to not alarm people unnecessarily.

Chui
March 10, 2008, 06:16 PM
I feel it is irresponsible to make AIRSOFT firearms black. They could be either/or:

Day-Glo Orange
Flourescent Lime Green
Flourescent Yellow

with only the top of the slide/sights being matt black.

If I were king that would be the law. Paint it and you'd see the inside of a penitentiary.

novaDAK
March 11, 2008, 04:19 AM
I feel it is irresponsible to make AIRSOFT firearms black.

I agree. I actually gotta agree with a wally world policy (which is to only sell clear airsoft guns)...I firmly believe that all non-firearms (as in toys, airsoft guns, etc.) should be made of clear plastic...because there is no way currently to make a clear firearm.

That would also fix the 'problem' the media has with people painting their guns funny colors :)

Plus, I'm not a fan of airsoft in general...a bunch of kids being taught that its ok to point (and pull the trigger at that :eek:) realistic guns (replicas, but remember, they'll probably own actual firearms some day) at other human beings.

tegemu
March 11, 2008, 06:33 AM
I just left the Airsoft Forum and this very question (something to the effect of,"What are the chances of being shot with a real gun, when using an Airsoft gun?) was asked. Most of the replies were - Very Good in certain circumstances, like this one.

rantingredneck
March 11, 2008, 08:02 AM
My nephew had one of those guns. It was a dead knockoff of a Beretta 92. The orange tip on his broke off during his play with it. When I saw it without the orange tip I told my sister in law that she needed to toss it before it got him hurt. She said, "Why?" I said, "Because anybody that sees him with it will think it's real, Might be a shoot first ask questions later situation".

He's got a clear one now that doesn't look quite as real.

Murdock
March 11, 2008, 08:02 AM
My nephew is a SEAL, and on a required reading list for him was the book On Killing, by Grossman. He recommended it to me, and I was greatly impressed by it.

The author is a Ranger-qualified Army officer with, if I recall correctly, a doctorate in psychology. He makes a very compelling argument that the escalation of violence throughout the industrialized world has been caused by removing the normal inhibition that humans have against killing. The removal of this inhibition is primarily due to allowing adolescents to be exposed to graphic violence in the entertainment media.

Airsoft games are OK for adults, and can teach a great deal about CQB. Serious Airsoft people are very concerned about how their guns look when transporting them to and from their events, and try to keep a low profile. But teaching unsupervised kids that its OK to point a very realistic gun at people and then pull a trigger in a light-hearted game is a very bad thing.

Chui
March 11, 2008, 11:31 AM
I do NOT disagree with you, Murdock. More people should sit and THINK before they buy things for their kids.

As far as I'm concerned there are NO "toy" guns. Period. I'd never buy one for my child (I don't have any). I would buy them an air rifle which they'd use only with adult supervision. I'd buy them a .22 rifle with the same stipulation: adult supervision. Teaching them to shoot well is enough; no need to desensitize them to taking a human life. If the need arises and they are properly reared it's there. No need to enhance it.

Wildalaska
March 11, 2008, 11:48 AM
I looked out the window and saw a person dressed all in black, walking away from a vehicle I didn't recognize, with an AR-15 at his shoulder pointed at my neighbors house. My first thought was that it might be an airsoft, but there was no discolored tip. I immediately went and retrieved my own AR that I keep loaded, hammer down on an empty chamber. I put a shell into the chamber, put it on safe, and looked back out another window. Only through the scope on 9 power could I tell that his AR had a dark blue tip.

I've held my tongue on this one for a fewe days, but what the heck.

Your grabbing and use of a rifle in the scenario you describe was poor judgement.

WildifihavetoexplianwhyseemysigAlaska ™

davlandrum
March 11, 2008, 01:09 PM
Only issue that I have with actions taken was the use of a scope to identify, with a round in the chamber, weapon on safe.

Not sure I would have done anything different, since my binos are in my hunting gear. Maybe clear the weapon, re-insert the mag but not chamber a round, then scope? From that status, it would take but a second to have a round locked and loaded.

Again, given the same situation, not sure I could have done any better. Lot of stuff to process simultaneously.

copenhagen
March 11, 2008, 01:22 PM
I saw somebody walking through my woods at home with an AK. I had my FN .308 PBR with ACOG with me (scouting for deer.) I took a look through my ACOG and noted that it was indeed an AK variant- a paintball gun. I cleared my weapon before I took a look because I would never want to shoot another hunter or any human for that matter, and just wanted to see if indeed someone was poaching on my land with an AK. I walked up to the guy who was in his late teens judging by the profusion of zits on his face and informed him that he was tresspassing, and that it is not a good idea to carry toys that resemble assault weapons on somebody else's property without their permission.

markj
March 11, 2008, 02:13 PM
Only through the scope on 9 power could I tell that his AR had a dark blue tip.

You pointed a loaded weapon at a kid? This is against the laws of every state better rethink this posting sir.

And he was walking away from you?

I just dont belive the level of fear some are living under.

bt 223
March 11, 2008, 04:06 PM
What do you think a cop would have done in a similar situation?

If a person dressed in black carrying a semi auto doesn't raise your pulse, what does. Next time I'll wait till shots are fired and then go try to reason with the individual.

He went out in public, with what could be easily mistaken for a real weapon. And was acting in a threatening manner. The police officers I have spoken too have said they would have drawn their weapons, and ordered him to the ground even if it had a orange tip. One even said they have confiscated real guns that had orange tips painted on.

bt 223
March 11, 2008, 04:54 PM
Look, I'm not trying to start a fight. I felt my life and, more importantly, the lives of my 3 children were in danger. My walls are not 223 proof. As soon as I saw the situation for what it was, I put the gun away. I hope to never use it for any thing other than coyotes or deer.

In the day in which we, live do you really think the situation, with a real weapon, is far fetched?

Wildalaska
March 11, 2008, 05:02 PM
Look, I'm not trying to start a fight. I felt my life and, more importantly, the lives of my 3 children were in danger. My walls are not 223 proof. As soon as I saw the situation for what it was, I put the gun away. I hope to never use it for any thing other than coyotes or deer.

Stop rationalizing. In the amount of time you took to get your gun, you could have called 9-11 and taken your kids into the basement or whatever.

Guy in black with a gun? What if it had been a cop on an operation..they see you peering out the window with an AR....


Poor judgement.

WildnowgoonstartflamingAlaska TM


In the day in which we, live do you really think the situation, with a real weapon, is far fetched?

Yes.

Avenger11
March 11, 2008, 06:30 PM
Wild,
That sums it up nicely.The best self-defense is to first use common sense and judgement!!

Stevie-Ray
March 11, 2008, 06:57 PM
My nephew had one of those guns. It was a dead knockoff of a Beretta 92. I've got that same gun and it's amazingly accurate. More so than most of my firearms at 20-30 feet. I use it to shoot seagulls away from my property. Doesn't hurt them permanently, but gives them a reason not to stay around and crap all over everything. It does look exactly like the real thing, other than the orange tip.

kristop64089
March 11, 2008, 08:29 PM
I agree with Wild and the others here, that in an URBAN setting, the correct thing to do is call 911 and then shelter the family, taking DEFENSIVE measures.

BUT, in a rural setting (which I am in) I don't see strangers in close proximity. If I see "perp" with gun, I go to the Bedroom and grab 12ga, I do not confront, but I will use any and all means to dispatch a threat. We have had to call 911 for medical emergency, we had a 10 minute wait. I am 15 miles from the sheriff(at least). I can not rely on them alone to provide protection. Unfortunately for me, most of the time people paying visits around here are burgalars, looting for meth cash.

raimius
March 11, 2008, 09:20 PM
That kid is an idiot.

I disagree with banning realistic replicas. The VAST majority of airsoft owners do not act that stupidly. I am part of the "serious airsoft" crowd, and would HATE to be running around with a clear airsoft rifle. I like my metal airsoft rifle. The only airsoft guns I have seen that have physically broken were plastic.

As for the OP's response, it was reasonable, but there was probably a better alternative than pointing a loaded AR out the window.

markj
March 12, 2008, 02:45 PM
In the amount of time you took to get your gun, you could have called 9-11 and taken your kids into the basement or whatever.


ding ding nail on head now think about it rationally and not defensivly.


I also live out in the country away from all the keyboard commandos. When I see a guy carrying a rifle I suspect he is coming over to shoot it up at my range back of my hill. :)

Glenn E. Meyer
March 12, 2008, 03:05 PM
When I was a kid, I carried a very realistic 1911 plastic gun and a Thompson SMG - we ran around the streets and pointed them at each other. Didn't become a killer.

Grossman makes the point that toy guns and computer games can teach aggression and prime violence. That has some validity from the literature. However, we also know from the same literature - that more detailed knowledge of firearms and usages decreases aggressive ideation.

The increase in violence can be looked at in two parts - the majority of gun crimes in the USA are due to the drug wars, poverty and broken family situations.

The recent supposed trend of rampage killings has most killers having some kind of preexisting mental illness. It could be the case that the media culture of violence then channels them and gives them methodologies to employ.

However, I don't think the overall violence level is due to gun games. In fact, violent crimes are dropping, gun accidents are down.

markj
March 12, 2008, 03:13 PM
When I was a kid, I carried a very realistic 1911 plastic gun and a Thompson SMG

Cops and robbers was it man :) never played cowboys and indians tho, Mom got very upset :) as her mom is one :) yep a cowboy,,,,,no no an Indian :) mom never tolerated any prejudice towards any others cause of race or other reasons. But cops and robbers was it for us :)

Murdock
March 12, 2008, 04:30 PM
However, I don't think the overall violence level is due to gun games. In fact, violent crimes are dropping, gun accidents are down.

Glenn: I agree with the above. And I too played lots of gun games as a kid, and loved them. The problem is not guns or even gun toys, but entertainment for profit (differentiated from political free speech) that uses mindless violence to titillate, and which is devoid of moral context. What I recall from our games as children is that there were good guys and bad, order imposed on chaos, and high moral positions to be defended (e.g.; defeating Nazis, preventing enslavement by extraterrestrials, etc). Now many of the video games seem to simply urge killing as many as you can, because you can, in a moral vacuum. For adolescents, this ain't good.

Jeepers! I sound so conservative!

Incidentally, I'm out the door for a 5-day conference out of town, but am looking forward to reading the stuff on the links you posted when I get back.

bclark1
March 12, 2008, 05:52 PM
Kids like "real" looking things. My mom did her best to contain us to fake-looking weapons. But if I could get something that was at least shaped realistically, I had a habit of just painting it. I also ripped out orange tips. I grew up in suburbia and didn't come from a shooting family. Even if I had, I'd have probably disobeyed my parents anyway. What would you expect boys with a lot of energy between the ages of, say, 5 and 12?

As for the situation at hand... I can see both sides. When things seem squirrelly to me, I have investigated with a concealed weapon, but I've also never seen a situation where I would be terribly outgunned with my single-stack, as in the case of an AR. So it's a call I'd prefer not make here. Part of responsibility, whether it's driving a car, owning a gun, or even deciding what you eat, is knowing how to exercise judgment and discretion. While I think the attitude "No harm, no foul" is a bit cavalier, I also think that you can't always second-guess a situation you weren't there for. Where there is value in this is what you take away from it. You have just considered a situation you would not have otherwise, and hopefully thought about yourself in such a situation. Your judgment is now more keenly developed. There's no need to flame anyone. Reasonable people may differ on the interpretation, so focus on what you can take away personally.

Stevie-Ray
March 17, 2008, 05:00 PM
Cops and robbers was it man never played cowboys and indians tho, Mom got very upset as her mom is one yep a cowboy,,,,,no no an Indian mom never tolerated any prejudice towards any others cause of race or other reasons. But cops and robbers was it for us Crap. I am an American Indian and we played cowboys and indians all the time. Guess what I played? Yep, a cowboy. There was no prejudice involved. Just a simple child's view on good and bad. But today, I find that most of the kids that volunteered to be indians back then, are now dead. Drug addicts, mostly, but street criminals of all types abound in their numbers. I suspect that even then, they were rebellious enough to actually want to be the "bad guys.":(

MLeake
March 17, 2008, 05:05 PM
but she always sided with the Indians, except when they were fighting John Wayne.

scrat
March 17, 2008, 05:09 PM
I would have told them. Straight up. I would have said it like this.

1. Im a gun owner. i believe we should be able to own guns.
2. I dont think i should have any problems walking outside to load my car with my guns.
3. I dont think it should be a problem for kids in the neighbor hood to play airsoft or even cap guns.
4. HOWEVER. When you walk the streets with an AR15 with the front end missing the orange tip. You open yourself up to a lot of problems. Especially when you come on my property.
5. Again no problems at all with guns, no problem at all with toy guns. you can play all over the streets any where you want just make sure you have a way of identifying that your gun is a toy. Especially when you come on my property.

Mahalaleel
March 17, 2008, 05:14 PM
Gotta love John Wayne spaghetti westerns :)

epic4444
March 17, 2008, 05:19 PM
not trying to be rude to the people who think that this situation could never really happen but you must live in the sticks...i live in a bad part of the bay area and if i saw someone on my street with a AR and all black on i would know for a fact its gunna be a shoot out becuase it happens alot around here...i dont see how you can think it doesnt and wouldnt but maybe not in the stick but in my city its common to hear shots and see it

Chui
March 17, 2008, 06:08 PM
Most don't live in "wild Alaska". I'm in the Detroit Metro Area (loosely) and while it's not at all common for active shooters running the streets it's not really that far away.

I won't comment on whether the reaction was overreaction or not; that's besides the point. We nurture a culture of violence and we then get upset when a small but ever increasing percentage of our youth become extremely effective at becoming violent as they physically mature.

Again, day-glo orange, lime green except for the top of the sight radius. But I'd never purchase one for my child; there ARE no "toy guns" and NRA be damned they are WEAPONS. ACT LIKE IT. There was once a time when a young boy was EXPECTED to have marksmanship skills. That aint today. Today they are expected to "be cool" which includes self-indulgence in all manner of violent games, attitude and demeanor. We do ourselves no good... and we are our own worst enemy.

Aqeous
March 17, 2008, 07:31 PM
I think I might Jump in here bt 223 . . .



I was actually at Walmart the other day and I passed by the sporting goods section. For the first time I took a real look at those airosofts. The one I held was a dead on replica of a real gun, and, it had no red tip (I thought they were supposed to, but I guess not)


If I saw a teenager outside of my house holding a ar-15 in his hand, I will first assume that it was an airosoft, then while I was thinking I would grab my portable phone and bring it to the room where I keep my guns. (No . . . in this day and age it is not unreasonable to assume that a hyped up teen might open up on a residential neighborhood with an AR. I have seen a real life video of two copy cat columbine teenagers that had leaked out onto the Internet. Someone had apparently got a hold of the video from the video cameras AND the actual 911 recording (being that the teen in question found it amusing to keep the cellphone line open to 911 the whole damn time) and they cut it together. I will tell you this, those boys not only killed, they killed laughing and with a smile on their face. :mad: NO, IT IS VERY PLAUSIBLE that a teenager is capable of taking an AR into a neighborhood and "releasing some misplaced anxiety."

Upon peering out the window I would have waited, and watched. No bullets all the better, if there were bullets my first reaction will not be to shoot, it would be to protect my family. I would yell to every one in my house "Get down . . . theres a shooting!" or something like that, and THEN I would call the cops.

If you hit the deck your going to do pretty good against someone "bump firing" (as they call it) a semi-auto and randomly spraying houses. The phone hast to come first if you want to protect 1.) your family 2.) your neighborhood and 3.) yourself. WHY, because you might not win . . . If the Cops are notified, they are going to race their pretty quick considering the content of the call. You could get injured, or worse and then what??? Who's going to protect your family???

Keep in mind, IF there were shots fired, you said yourself, a second "Assailant" appeared that you hadn't noticed before. If he was a REAL assailant, well, I am not Rambo, and I am guessing neither are you, so you VS 2 other AR's is not a possition that any one of us ever want to be in.

MY point, is that be it the best case scenario (airosofts) or the worst possible scenario, (psycoteens) you best bet is to first, notify the cops . AFTER the cops are notified you can then make a tactical assessment depending what is happening. I learned a great deal from the LEO and friends in the military that I have known over the years, and I can tell you this, armed boys in blue dedicated to protect and serve is THE BEST possible thing you can have going for you when the SHTF. No phone call . . . no back up, and then you are on your own.


All that said, I do not feel that you did ANYTHING wrong. As long as you were calm and cool enough to ONLY BE ASSESSING the target at the time that you were peering through your scope. However, next time, make sure that you are near a phone, sometimes a cellphone can be more powerful then the sidearm at you side ;)

markj
March 18, 2008, 01:21 PM
I am an American Indian and we played cowboys and indians all the time

My Mom was behind all that. She hit us for any racial stuff. made me see we are all the same after removing the skin :)

Gotta love John Wayne spaghetti westerns

Uh that was Clint Eastwood sir. John Wayne didnt go to Itally to make movies.

Altho "Once upon a time in America" was itallian and featured many great names. Henry Ford, Charles Bronson t oname a couple.

If Isaw a guy carring a weapon walking away I would first dial 911. Then maybe just maybe Iwould yell at him telling him I called the law then duck cause he might shoot at me. I would use force only and only if he was targetting my house and was a direct threat to myself. Then and only then.

Been shot, it dont feel good at all.

MLeake
March 18, 2008, 05:45 PM
I think you mean Henry Fonda... He was the bad guy. Did he play the villain in any other movie?

Jason Robards is the other big name that leaps to mind in that movie.

Cheers,

M

Vermont
March 19, 2008, 10:20 AM
If it was serious enough for you to point your loaded gun at him, it was serious enough to call the police. You could have been on the phone and still had your weapon ready to protect your family if things got serious.

I don't know if I would have done it differently at the time, but from my cozy living room it seems you could have done better.

No disrespect meant. I'm not sure my answer is the right one. It's just part of a discussion we can learn from.

MLeake
March 19, 2008, 11:10 AM
I was always taught that a phone call is essential (or radio call, depending on your scenario), in case you get taken down by the bad guy. Otherwise, who defends the house/base?

Call it in first, engage afterward, if necessary (and possible).

Hard Ball
March 19, 2008, 01:02 PM
"In the amount of time you took to get your gun, you could have called 9-11"

I have far more faith in mi guns than in 911.

Brick
March 19, 2008, 01:36 PM
Airsoft guns, the good ones, are excellent training and plinking tools.

The funny thing is how many folks here would like to be able to go about your daily duties with an AR15 or subgun on your shoulder and have nobody complain, yet wince at the thought of an airsoft replica.

Federal law requires a 6mm (1/4") for transport at the miniumum. A number of folks remove the paint, I do not. I consider it a violation of law and ethics.

It's one thing to conduct shooting practice, and it is another thing when someone is shooting back at you. The easiest and most cost-effective replicas today to safely mimic real gunfighting is airsoft.

You'd be suprised how fast "target acquisition", "shot placement", "tactical manuevering", etc magazine buzzwords goes right out the window when someone is popping off rounds at you...and all you see is a head, an arm, and a replica...

Wildalaska
March 19, 2008, 01:53 PM
I have far more faith in mi guns than in 911.

Faith has nothing to do with it, its the difference between netboard ramboism and mature, responsible gun ownership.

I would go so far as to say that your first obligation as a mature responsible gun owner is to call 911 (tactical circumstances permitting) before "engaging"

WildthisoneisgettingbeatentodeathAlaska

Bogie
March 19, 2008, 02:20 PM
When I was a kid, the _best_ cap guns were the ones that looked real, and which had some heft to 'em... And the best plastic guns were the ones that looked kinda real...

And we shot darn near anything with 'em... Usually while yelling at it.

We grew older. Got BB guns. Learned that you can't shoot just anything with 'em. And that yelling doesn't have the same effect.

Then we got real guns... And behaved with them.

I think it's more around the movies, media and games than anything else... We'd play good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys HAD to lose. Today? The bad guys win...

CPTMurdoc30
March 19, 2008, 02:41 PM
My wife came in the house one day screaming get your gun there are kids in the street with guns.

I first looked outside. Yup kids with guns next thing I know they are shooting eachother. I said they are airsoft. Wife went out and took them away. The parents came over and started yelling at us for stealing their kids toy gun. I said "look your luckyyour kid did not get shot or the police called" Which the police sometimes shoot first.

Murdock
March 19, 2008, 05:21 PM
not trying to be rude to the people who think that this situation could never really happen but you must live in the sticks

My wife and I had just moved into our current home 10 years ago. Our town has only 385 year-round residents, but we probably get up to three times that number in the summer. We are 20 miles from next closest town to have a police or sheriff's department. Moose sometimes wander up our driveway, and we are well out of sight of any neighbors.

When I asked the chief of the volunteer fire department who did the law enforcement for the town, wondering if the area was covered by the troopers or the sheriff, he looked at me strangely and said "Law enforcement? Don't you have a gun?" (I don't tell strangers about my gun collection, so I was circumspect in my response). Most emergency aid can be 30 minutes away under good conditions, and double that in winter.

It was a very cold and snowy December, and the boxes we'd used to move weren't even unpacked yet. I was alone one dark evening (in Down east Maine in mid-December, that's anytime past 3:30 pm) trying to get walls painted before the furniture was moved in, when four cars pulled into my driveway, and several people (maybe a dozen) exited the cars rapidly began running toward the house through a foot of snow.

I had my 1911 in a kitchen drawer, and opened the drawer to take the gun in to my hand. The attacking mob turned out to be enthusiastic, early-season Christmas carolers.

The gun went back in the drawer with no one the wiser, and I went to the door with a smile rather than a frown.

Perceptions of events do vary. Trust, yet verify. ;)

Colt Delta Elite
March 19, 2008, 06:55 PM
most of the time people paying visits around here are burgalars, looting for meth cash.

Kris, it there was ever someone in need of relocation it's you!

Anchorage
March 19, 2008, 09:56 PM
there is a time and place for everything, playing with an airsoft in public is not a good idea. if that was me, and if he had the airsoft on someone and it looks like he was about to shoot.... bad idea.. very bad.

drifts1
March 20, 2008, 09:25 PM
I guess I just grew up a different time and place but as kids we only had real looking toy guns. Dont recall them making unreal looking ones, not sure anyone would buy em. Heck we use to buy near full size M16 toy rifles, tie shoelaces(slings) to them, spray paint them black, then we would use electrical tape to attach small black flashlights to the carry handles. This was in the early 80's keep in mind. We would play SWAT at night with flightlights a'shining. We would be in everyone frontyards, sideyards, everywhere. Sure beat playing Rainbow 6 on some game consule. My kids play with their airsofts out front and run around every now and then. Fortunately my neighbors are observent enough to realize they are kids, laughing and smiling and yelling " I got you!, I got you first!", the tiny plastic bb's are visible as they fly thru air and most noticibly no gun shots. So far no complaints, no police, no police responding to calls that is, as i have 4 LEO who live on my block. I dont know how many here have actually witnessed real shootings and kids playing with toyguns/airsoft, but there is a difference and its immediately noticeable. My first reaction would probably be to grab my m4 airsoft ,slide out the side door, flank around and unload till i ran dry.:D

ssilicon
March 20, 2008, 10:27 PM
The only real problem here is that you pointed a loaded, real weapon at him BEFORE you knew it was a threat. That is a violation of not pointing at something you do not wish to shoot. Normally it might be reasonable except that you stated you suspected an airsoft from the start. Perhaps you should wait until he comes to your house, or else invest in some binoculars. Using your AR with a round chambered as your spy glass wasn't real switft.

well, it isnt a rule carved in stone... a guy in black with what looks like an AR can be a threat... sure you can point at him. but if you point at guy in pink holding flowers... that a no no

That's why I said the part about "normally it might be reasonable" and "you suspected an airsoft from the start."

Anchorage
March 20, 2008, 10:57 PM
The only real problem here is that you pointed a loaded, real weapon at him BEFORE you knew it was a threat. That is a violation of not pointing at something you do not wish to shoot. Normally it might be reasonable except that you stated you suspected an airsoft from the start. Perhaps you should wait until he comes to your house, or else invest in some binoculars. Using your AR with a round chambered as your spy glass wasn't real switft.

well, it isnt a rule carved in stone... a guy in black with what looks like an AR can be a threat... sure you can point at him. but if you point at guy in pink holding flowers... that a no no

FMJparabellum
March 21, 2008, 02:38 AM
I worked at a gas station the hoot owl shift; I had a lot of officers come in for coffee. I was talking to a captain and he told me when he was on patrol they received a call of two suspects "car shopping". When he got into the area 12:00 a.m. or so he saw two "dark" individuals breaking into a vehicle. They booked; He exited his patrol car and began chasing on foot. One of them stopped and pulled out a hand gun and pointed it right at him. He drew his gun and ordered him to drop the weapon. (I would have probably open fired at this point). But the kid put down the gun and was soon in custody. I don’t remember if they caught the other one... But it turned out to be a BB gun and all the captain could say was he couldn’t believe how someone could be so stupid he could have blew that kids sh_t everywhere! But what do you do?
All over whatever money you had in your cars middle council, or maybe a stereo?????

MikeyConti
March 21, 2008, 03:02 PM
Blank guns are even worse, the only orange on most of them is inside the barrel. So unless the gun is pointed right at you, you might not even notice it. About 4 years ago I walked on my front porch to kinda clean my blank 1911 Replica, A little bit later a cop car pulled up, my dad just told them it was a blank gun and they left.

So what would you do if you saw someone walking around firing a gun but it just turns out to be a blank gun? Tricky situation.

MLeake
March 21, 2008, 04:46 PM
I haven't seen too many of those. The few I have seen were either SWAT or SEAL teams.

So.... I can't agree that a guy in black with an AR can automatically be considered a threat. Judgement is still required.

ssilicon
March 21, 2008, 05:31 PM
About 4 years ago I walked on my front porch to kinda clean my blank 1911 Replica, A little bit later a cop car pulled up, my dad just told them it was a blank gun and they left.

So what if it would have been real? It was your own porch! Or are they outlawd where you live?

MikeyConti
March 21, 2008, 05:45 PM
Well I was young, around 14 maybe.. But its not like I was running around the neighborhood pulling the trigger. lol

Th0r
March 21, 2008, 06:27 PM
I would hazard a guess that a large portion of armed robberies involving firearms where I am are perpetrated by people with Airsoft guns.

I mean it is a pretty easy way of getting cash, just walking into a place with an airsoft gun and demanding cash. Most people will take you very seriously.

In the UK the cops shoot a lot of innocent people because they have items that may look like a firearm. Over here it is more likely the guy with the airsoft gun will get shot because he doesn't put down the gun in an attempt to escape.

That actually happened a few years ago in a bank heist. Three men all with airsoft guns attempted to hold up a bank and armed cops stormed the building. Two of the guys surrendered their airsoft weapons while another one used his to try bargain for a way out. He was shot dead.

MLeake
March 21, 2008, 06:35 PM
I don't remember whether it was airsoft, but he had a Beretta 92 replica at his middle school. Threatened students and teachers with it, then barricaded himself in a restroom across the hall from a classroom.

Unfortunately, everybody thought it was a real weapon.

SWAT team responded. The kid (14yo 8th grader, I think) was killed by a single shot.

Of course, all the usual letter writers complained that the cops shouldn't have shot the kid, since the gun wasn't real. But you have to wonder what they'd have written if SWAT hadn't responded, the gun had been real, and the kid had started firing into the classroom across the hall.

OTOH, I had a friend who, as a deputy in southern California, ended a real school shooting by tackling the kid (shooter) in the rest room. He didn't want to shoot a kid, and it turned out well. No deaths. But my friend took a major risk.

I had another friend, a marine who was working as a reserve cop in Riverside, who didn't think the gun a kid was pointing at him was real, until it went "bang." Luckily, the vest stopped the bullet, but my friend still took some liver bruising. The kid was 13, but was a junior member of a gang, and my friend and his team were arresting some of the gang members when this happened.

Cool as they may look, realistic looking toy or airsoft guns are a fatal accident waiting to happen.

Colt Delta Elite
March 21, 2008, 10:31 PM
In this day of kids with REAL guns committing REAL crimes, youngsters with toy weapons playing shoot-em-up is a recipe for disaster. It's just a matter of time. Should it be that way? No. But it's like the motorist who just got creamed in the intersection that had the right-of-way. He was right... dead right. It is better to be safe than sorry.

Stevie-Ray
March 22, 2008, 12:10 AM
But it's like the motorist who just got creamed in the intersection that had the right-of-way. He was right... dead right. It is better to be safe than sorry.He was right, dead right as he sped along.....but he's just as dead as if he'd been dead wrong.

mordis
March 23, 2008, 11:32 AM
Wild, I dont know how well 911 is up in your neck of the woods, but around most parts of the continential US, 911 is not a reliable source of help. There are numerous incidents in wich people call 911 and get put on hold for obscene amounts of time while they or people they know are raped and killed.

Its the type of thinking your advocating that keeps people from acting to save others, they just dont get involved. People need to be responcible for their protection and be good decent people and help others when they see some imminent threat. That kid was a threat, he was carrying a realistic looking gun.

Its this horrible POS attitude of dont get involved, dont grab your gun and defend someone, dont do the right thing that is screwing the American people of the very morals that defined us as apeople for over 2 centuries.

Wildalaska, fact is, 911 is not reliable. Period. Its gotten to the point, thanks to understaffing and underfunding that people need to take care of themselves and to help those around them. Cuase they cant expect the police to do it for them. Besides, the gov't has already said they have no real duty to protect individuals, only society as a whole.

mordis
March 23, 2008, 11:41 AM
Just to add to the post, I really dont know how i would have reacted since i dont have a long gun. If it had happend around here, i would have drew my pistol, and had it down at my side while i figure out *** was goin on. Now if i had a AR with some form of magnifying glass, i would have considered using the optic to get a better view of the kid. Weather or not i would load it would depend on the situation, or if it was already loaded and chambered with the safety on when i put it in the closet.

Lets look at this from another angle, if those guns had been real, we would be hailing him as a hero for shooting down 2 urban shooters. Had they been real, he would not had time to call 911 and be put on hold and hope someone answeres intime to save the neighbors and himself. He would have been the only person who could have acted. He would have been a hero.

All things considered, he did ok, he did what every American should do when faced with a potential threat of him self and his neighbors. Good people help others, and saving someones life is one of the greatest acts of love and kindenss one can have.

Wildalaska
March 23, 2008, 01:05 PM
There are numerous incidents in wich people call 911 and get put on hold for obscene amounts of time while they or people they know are raped and killed.

There ar numerous instances of lightning killing folks but we dont wear lightning rods.

Its the type of thinking your advocating that keeps people from acting to save others, they just dont get involved.

Total misinterpretation of what I and others have posted.

People need to be responcible for their protection and be good decent people and help others when they see some imminent threat.

Is that a rule of strategy or tactics. And isnt the issue here "threat"?

hat kid was a threat, he was carrying a realistic looking gun.

OK...lets make this clear...in your view, anyone carrying a gun is a threat? I hope you don't support open carry :cool:

Wildalaska, fact is, 911 is not reliable. Period.

I think you are missing the point in this entire thread.

WildnicepolemicthoughAlaska TM

Wildalaska
March 23, 2008, 01:06 PM
All things considered, he did ok, he did what every American should do when faced with a potential threat of him self and his neighbors.

Id hate to have you living near me, especially when I cant find my AR case on range day:D

WildishootbackAlaska TM

kgpcr
March 23, 2008, 06:29 PM
Bad call pointing a gun at him! call 911 and get the family to cover. You did nothing to protect your family

boesman82
March 23, 2008, 07:37 PM
Here is my take on it a threat presented itself, said person armed himself with a loaded weapon(good on you) and from there reassessed situation found that it was no threat( family is safe and protected) there was no need for 911 but if threat was real I believe 911 would have been dispatched and the family would have been moved to a safer location.

If someone enters your yard or that of a neighbor and they are armed then personally you should get a weapon and go to condition one until you have identified them as friend or foe.

My take is if **** really hits the fan then call 911 and put up resistance to bad guy(s).

Well done sir on not shooting the perp with the airsoft.

carl11acr
March 23, 2008, 09:31 PM
Had the threat been true and the perp started to shoot his way into a home and all you did was call 911 an entire family could have been wiped out before the police arrived, you did good.

Carl 11ACR
http://www.3rdhowitzerbattery11-acr.com/

Allons
"Find The :censor: – Then Pile On" George S. Patton the 3rd 1968
The idea of an automatic weapon is to set up a wall of fire, accuracy is not the objective.

50calfan
March 24, 2008, 12:55 AM
i would have loaded up baby

MLeake
March 24, 2008, 08:50 AM
... while I don't disagree with readying a weapon, that's light-years away from scoping a person with the rifle.

Keep a pair of binocs or a separate scope stored alongside your rifle, so you can use that, and not scope around the neighborhood sweeping your muzzle over everything and looking like a sniper.

Frankly, if I saw one of the neighbors looking around the neighborhood through a riflescope, I'd call 911 about HIM...

As far as the guy flaming WildAlaska, WA isn't saying never take action, he's saying call 911 before or as you take action. That way, if you are taken out, somebody is still able to respond. Note: This is what they taught us for sentry duty, as well, except it was make the radio call prior to engaging, just in case you aren't victorious.

carl11acr
March 24, 2008, 11:51 AM
Where did he say that he was scopepng around the neighborhood?

He saw an armed person dressed all in black walking away from a vehicle he didn’t recognize, he then ID that person as non hostile he then lowered his weapon and observed from inside his home, a 911 call was not needed.

Not only did he do the right thing he also prevented making a false alarm.

Hesitation on target ID is just as bad as jumping the gun and I commend his judgment under stress.

MLeake
March 24, 2008, 09:44 PM
That is scoping around the neighborhood, in my book.

You don't identify hostile vs non-hostile through the riflescope, if you have any other option. An AD/ND while performing the ID would be disastrous. Also, if the kid had noticed that he was being looked at, then what?

If the OP didn't have binocs or a separate scope available at that time, then he should invest in some now.

I'm amazed that several posters here seem to think this was a sound practice. It's fundamentally opposed to anything they would teach military or police, which is probably why you'll notice that most of the vets posting here are saying, "hey, that wasn't a good idea."

carl11acr
March 25, 2008, 10:15 AM
So this is ok?

I don't remember whether it was airsoft, but he had a Beretta 92 replica at his middle school. Threatened students and teachers with it, then barricaded himself in a restroom across the hall from a classroom.

Unfortunately, everybody thought it was a real weapon.

SWAT team responded. The kid (14yo 8th grader, I think) was killed by a single shot.

Avenger11
March 25, 2008, 05:56 PM
Yes it is!!

carl11acr
March 25, 2008, 06:41 PM
Ok lets see, a kid goes in to a school with a toy gun runs down the hall and locks himself in the restroom all other kids think it’s a real gun no shots fired at this time now 911 is placed the cops come in like gang busters knock in the door guns blazing and now a kid is dead. And this is ok. With you!!


Now a man sitting in his living room sees a kid all in black with a gun that looks real but he suspects it may be a toy 911 is not called and a kid lives.


I will back BT 223 each and every time (and a kid lives today thanks to a cool head under stress)

Vermont
March 25, 2008, 06:49 PM
What if it was your kid playing airsoft? Would you be OK with someone pointing a rifle at him from their window? I sure as hell wouldn't. If I saw a guy pointing a gun at my kid out of his window I might have shot him and I bet lots of other people here would have too.

Wildalaska
March 25, 2008, 06:58 PM
What if it was your kid playing airsoft? Would you be OK with someone pointing a rifle at him from their window? I sure as hell wouldn't. If I saw a guy pointing a gun at my kid out of his window I might have shot him and I bet lots of other people here would have too.

Your wasting your time trying to get some folks to see reason.

Thank god sometimes for gun control laws.

WildcuznoteverybodyshouldhaveoneAlaska ™

carl11acr
March 25, 2008, 07:11 PM
What if it was your kid in the rest room?

The key word is judgment, the right one and you live, the wrong and you don’t.
Every situation is deferent there is no black and white.

model70fan
March 25, 2008, 07:36 PM
The kid threatened with and told people the gun was real, these days when a kid says a gun is real and it looks real you have to take them seriously, not like when I was younger and ran around playing army with toy guns that looked plenty real. It is unfortunate that a kid is killed but at 14, much younger really, the kid should know that bad things happen when they run into a school and tell everyone they are going to start shooting. It's sad, but it is a fact of life these days.

ssilicon
March 25, 2008, 07:58 PM
I hope there must be more to the sotry because, if the kid holed up in the bathroom by himself, why not just wait him out? Sure, it can take a day even but it's better than taking him out. Now, if the kid comes running out of the bathroom and points the fake gun at anyone, or even just runs out with it and won't put it down, then yeah, you have to do what you have to do.

RAHatto
March 25, 2008, 09:00 PM
Kids do dumb **** and more kids kill officers and soldiers then the public knows. If they always think the gun is a toy first then we would have a lot less people protecting us.
Nobody likes life and death mistakes but second guessing when it could be you that the punk shoots is unacceptable.
IF a kid acts like a criminal with a gun, treat them like a criminal with a gun.

carl11acr
March 25, 2008, 09:08 PM
the kid should know that bad things happen when they run into a school and tell everyone they are going to start shooting.

Did you know that bad things happen at 14? Or did you feel immortal—the truth.

And don’t you think that the cop being in a controlled situation (no shots fired only one door) take the time to talk to the kid before he opened fired and ending a young life?

The problem with this country today is people overreact make the wrong decision and criticize someone else for there mistakes.
It is better to have a gun pointed at you by a civilian that can interpret the situation and not fire then to be shot by a trigger happy cop.

This is my last post on this matter.

Lawyer Daggit
March 25, 2008, 09:24 PM
I agree with Wild that your first response should have been to call the Police.

I have no objection with you readying your gun in case the situation escalated nor with you continuing to observe- As I was in my own home I would have not racked the slide at this point- this does not take long to do and is easy enough to do if things escalate. MY view is that from where you were, putting a loaded magazine in the rifle was all you needed to do.

I have a problem with you observing through a rifle sight. You should have grabbed binoculars and observed through those and been ready to relay information via phone to the Police if things escalated.

It is NEVER wise to point a loaded gun at anything that you are not ready to destroy.

I must say I have a problem with replicas and airsoft guns- many are cheaply made and if the orange tip discolours or comes off and they are too similar to the real thing.

MLeake
March 25, 2008, 09:31 PM
The kid convinced other students and some teachers that the weapon was real.

The kid claimed it was real, and acted as though it were real.

The police responded to the circumstances that presented themselves.

This case was tragic, but understandable, and I do not fault the SWAT member who fired when the kid pointed the (simulated) weapon at him, after having claimed that it was real.

In the OP's airsoft case, no verbal threats were made, no known threat existed, and he chose to ID a target he was unsure of through a rifle scope. Again, if he didn't have binocs or a separate scope, he needs to invest in some. It was not acceptable to use a rifle scope for ID purposes in a non-combat environment.

It was foolish for him not to call 911, since he felt threatened enough to ID via his scope.

He was in the wrong on both counts.

Cheers,

M

MLeake
March 25, 2008, 09:35 PM
The reason SWAT opted to go into the restroom was because the restroom door was directly opposite the door to a classroom full of kids.

Faculty and police were afraid to try to remove the kids via that door, with a potential (and self-declared) shooter having them in field of fire through a chokepoint.

While I have not been to that school, most central Florida schools are built to minimize cooling costs, so most classrooms don't have windows. Those that do have windows, generally do not have the sort of windows that could be used for a mass egress.

It was decided that if the gun was real, and if the kid decided to act as he had claimed he would, then he could easily start firing into a room full of kids.

They call this "Suicide by Cop" when done by adults. It's the same thing when done by an adolescent.

Wildalaska
March 25, 2008, 09:42 PM
It is better to have a gun pointed at you by a civilian that can interpret the situation and not fire then to be shot by a trigger happy cop.

This is my last post on this matter.

With that comment I hope so.

WildwowAlaska TM

carl11acr
March 25, 2008, 09:48 PM
It’s nice day for a BBQ

TexasSeaRay
March 25, 2008, 09:55 PM
Trying to determine and then identify what you perceive to possibly be a threat by way of a scope on a loaded weapon is rarely ever a good idea in any circumstance. In a neighborhood full of non-combatants and you're not a cop, it's never a good idea.

Period.

Anyone who thinks they want to be a hero and pull the trigger on someone, you need to go down to your recruiter's office, sign up, make it through boot camp, then volunteer for Sandland. You'll get your chance.

I doubt very much you'll ever want to do it again. For damned sure, you'll stop and think twice before EVER pointing a loaded/ready weapon at another human being for a "might be" something situatino.

Jeff

DonR101395
March 25, 2008, 09:58 PM
By some binoculars and dial the cops.

Capt Charlie
March 25, 2008, 10:29 PM
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
That, coupled with this...

Trying to determine and then identify what you perceive to possibly be a threat by way of a scope on a loaded weapon is rarely ever a good idea in any circumstance. In a neighborhood full of non-combatants and you're not a cop, it's never a good idea.

Period.
...pretty much says it all.

I think this one's run its course.

Closed.