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Super-Dave
March 5, 2008, 07:36 AM
If a company made a gun under the following critereia:

It used pump action to chamber a round.

It was chambered for 12 gauge.

It came with a pistol grip only.

It had a 12" rifled barrel.

Could this be classified as a pistol instead of an AOW?

The way I read the definition of an AOW the above configuration would classify it as a pistol.

VUPDblue
March 5, 2008, 08:07 AM
Yes, the rifled bore would put it into the pistol category. It would be one helluva pistol, but a pistol none the less. Look at the Taurus Judge...

rem870hunter
March 5, 2008, 08:19 AM
the barrel would have to be fixed to the receiver. the rifled barrel would possibly make it a short barreled rifle. still needing the $200.00 tax stamp and even if it were allowed for the barrel to be removable. the magazine tube would be too short to use a regular barrel. so you would only have the one fully rifled barrel. i don't know about other manufacturers but remington made a special field model 870 and 1100. the mag tube on those is shorter. so maybe either one of them with a 10" barrel rifled or smoothbore would still need the tax stamp.

VUPDblue
March 5, 2008, 04:30 PM
the rifled barrel would possibly make it a short barreled rifle.

By definition, a SBR would have to have a shoulder stock.

This is from the BATFE's definitions:
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

It does not specify that the chamber has to be attached to the bore, just that it has to be permanently alligned with the bore. Removal of the bore is not revelant.

Bill DeShivs
March 5, 2008, 05:38 PM
You are forgetting that the gun would be over .50 caliber, making it subject to NFA regulation if it was rifled.

Hkmp5sd
March 5, 2008, 07:44 PM
First, Bill is correct. A gun designed to be fired with one hand with a rifled barrel over .5 inches would be considered a destructive device and still be NFA.

Oddly enough, ATF does not consider a pistol gripped only shotgun to be a shotgun. They call it a "Title 1 weapon" and prohibit its sale to anyone under 21 just like it actually was a pistol. By definition, a "shotgun" is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

VUPDblue
March 5, 2008, 07:59 PM
...studiously perusing the 1934 NFA and recent case law...

It looks like your 12ga pistol idea would most likely be a Destructive Device.
A Destructive device is classified as any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or
may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the
action of a explosive or other propellant, the barrel or
barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in
diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the
Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as
particularly suitable for sporting purposes...

Non-sporting 12 gauge shotgun - is a DD, because it has a
bore over 1/2", and is not exempted unless it meets the "sporting
use" test.

Super-Dave
March 6, 2008, 07:19 AM
What if it were a 20 gauge? Could it then be a pistol?

Bill DeShivs
March 6, 2008, 01:23 PM
No.

zxcvbob
March 6, 2008, 01:35 PM
But a 32 gauge pistol...

VUPDblue
March 7, 2008, 09:12 AM
10-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .775 inches
12-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .729 inches
16-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .662 inches
20-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .615 inches
28-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .550 inches

zxcvbob
March 7, 2008, 09:15 AM
A 32 guage is .500" isn't it? So could it have a short rifled barrel and be classified as a pistol?

douglasschuckert
March 7, 2008, 03:56 PM
You would have to go one gage higher. The 32 would more than likely be still considered a DD. You 'could' get away with it, but the interpretation of the law would be up to the individual SAIC (Special Agent In Charge) of your field division. It's their oppenions that try and convict people... seriously (I know I cant spell). There are still a LOT of very anti-gun people in the ATF (Clinton Administration left overs) and very soon even more will be in there... so you want to be "well within the aspects of the law". In other words, if the law says .5" then stay at .4 or below for bore size. (another tid-bit... they will not only measure the bore size, but the size of the hole at the end of the barrel as well... and use whichever is bigger)... If your bore size is .452" and your barrel opening is .501 your screwed... Just and FYI.. They WILL go down to the 1000th of an inch in their measurements, and use the laws of machining as justification... Just and FYI... I'd just give up on the bore pistol idea... If i were you. Contact a C2 SOT and have them build you an AOW to your specs and then pay the 5.00 tax, or Form 1 one yourself and pay the 200.00 tax.. Do it to a trust and you dont need the CLEO certification, fingerprint cards, or passport photos.... Just my 2cents. $200.00 may be a lot, but come one.. you can keep it for life and NEVER have to pay it again... $200.00 for something that hardly noone else has??? Come on now.. its not a lot of money by any means in the long run...

MeekAndMild
March 7, 2008, 08:31 PM
OK so why aren't 12 gauge flare pistols licensed as AOW or DD?

kozak6
March 7, 2008, 08:37 PM
Here it is:



f) Destructive device. -- The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

Super-Dave
March 11, 2008, 12:32 PM
What if I took a .410 virgin remington reciever straignt from the factory. Put a 8-12" rifled barrel on in it cut the magazine tube, put a pistol grip on it.

Is it legal to sell as a pistol to Joe-Public?

cabbynate
March 11, 2008, 03:05 PM
You mean like this one?
http://www.impactguns.com/store/015813516839.html
2 inches should not make a difference.
I was going to get one but opted not to as you open the front door to the feds any time, any day, any hour. No questions asked.

Hkmp5sd
March 11, 2008, 03:35 PM
I was going to get one but opted not to as you open the front door to the feds any time, any day, any hour. No questions asked.


No you do not. This is an enternal rumor that just will not die. They still need a search warrant to enter your property. Otherwise, the only thing they can do is stand outside your door and request to view the paperwork for your NFA items. I've had both NFA items and a C&R license for over 20 years and have never laid eyes on an ATF agent.

What if I took a .410 virgin remington reciever straignt from the factory. Put a 8-12" rifled barrel on in it cut the magazine tube, put a pistol grip on it.

Is it legal to sell as a pistol to Joe-Public?

No. It is still a shotgun and with the pump action, one designed to be operated with two hands. If you must have a multi-shot pistol/shotgun combination that is not NFA, buy one of the .45LC/.410 revolvers on the market.

MeekAndMild
March 11, 2008, 07:47 PM
Thanks for the info Kozak6 but that leads to another question. The block quote ended in: or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. This makes sense with muzzle loaders but is this also how they sell centerfire rifles like the .700 Nitro Express?

douglasschuckert
March 11, 2008, 09:28 PM
H&K MP5 is VERY correct. The ATF DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENTER YOUR PROPERTY FOR ANY REASON.

If you are one of the few that operate a FFL out of your home, the do have the right to inspect the property just about at will, but even then there are requirements they must obey there as well. They can go tramping around your house. They are allowed to inspect the area of the home designated for business use. THIS DOES NOT GRANT THEM A PERMANENT SEARCH WARRANT.

If you own NFA, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSPECT YOUR INVENTORY ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY.... UNLESS... they have a warrant. This goes to show for ANY purpose. Some agents have been know to threaten people with arrest if they do not comply, but if you call their bluff they will leave. They tried that trick at the America Gun Show in Northern VA a couple years ago. They were tracking people purchasing weapons at the show then demanding to see the items later and telling people that if they did not comply and show the purchased weapon then they were going to arrest the individual and charge them with "straw purchase". BULL-****. They got turned away from several homes and nothing happened...

douglasschuckert
March 11, 2008, 09:45 PM
Super-Dave, the answer to your question about the .410 is NO. You have what is called a re-manufacture. If you 'significantly' modify a weapon as to change its 1. intended purpose or 2. permanently & drastically change its visual exterior you have effectively and illegally re-manufactured the weapon. This is HIGHLY ILLEGAL to do to anything you intend to sell.. You can do it to your own pieces (within certain guidelines), but once you do you can never sell them.

ALSO

If you were to purchase a .410 shotgun that came from the factory with a stock, and cut the barrel down, even though you have removed the stock, you still have a illegal short barreled shotgun. The barrel CAN NOT be trimmed below a set length. I believe its 18.5" from receiver to tip. $200.00 txfer tax.

If you purchase a .410 that did NOT come with a stock and shorten the barrel you've created an AOW. Any Other Weapon ($5.00 txfer tax). As you have changed the weapon to something other than for sporting purposes. Regardless of the fact that its breech AND barrel openings are less than .5". People have done just that to their pistol gripped .410's and have gotten nailed for it. The law does NOT stipulate which gauge the weapons have to be to be considered "shotguns". This also applies to the virgin receiver from the factory.

You can purchase pistols made to fire the .45LC that can also shoot .410, but the weapon was initially designed to do just that. It is also rumored that you can only shoot slugs from this, but I dont know for sure on that one. I do know that very soon those pistols will more than likely become part of the NFA/AOW community as well.

Bill DeShivs
March 12, 2008, 02:46 AM
Douglasschuckert-
Sorry, but you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

SuperDave-
Your proposal just might be legal (if you are a manufacturer). I would certainly get an ATF ruling first. I don't see much purpose for that type gun, other than cool factor.

Super-Dave
March 12, 2008, 09:29 AM
I just wanted it for the cool factor. Here in florida it is hard to get an AOW. you have to jump through so many hoopes it is just not worth it.

I was thinking about having a company that makes and sells AOW shotguns to make this configuration and then sell it to me as a pistol through my ffl.

It is really just for the cool factor, however .410 sabot slugs in a portable package could still cause some damage. Might be good for hikers against mountain lions or small bears.

I was hoping it was legal so I could get someone to make and sell it to me all legal. I am legit and only want legal firearms.

Hkmp5sd
March 12, 2008, 03:23 PM
Here in florida it is hard to get an AOW. you have to jump through so many hoopes it is just not worth it.


Hard? It's the same hoops anyone in the US purchasing NFA toys must go through. I've jumped through them six times so far. Not that complicated.

VUPDblue
March 12, 2008, 08:23 PM
If you were to purchase a .410 shotgun that came from the factory with a stock, and cut the barrel down, even though you have removed the stock, you still have a illegal short barreled shotgun. The barrel CAN NOT be trimmed below a set length. I believe its 18.5" from receiver to tip. $200.00 txfer tax.

There is no minimum barrel length for a SBS. Minimum length to NOT be a SBS is 18".

If you purchase a .410 that did NOT come with a stock and shorten the barrel you've created an AOW. Any Other Weapon ($5.00 txfer tax).
AOW's are $5 to transfer, but they are $200 to manufacture on a Form 1.

Regardless of the fact that its breech AND barrel openings are less than .5". People have done just that to their pistol gripped .410's and have gotten nailed for it. The law does NOT stipulate which gauge the weapons have to be to be considered "shotguns".

What makes it an AOW is the smooth bore. And if the bore is rifled then the pump action forend, which makes it necessary to operate with 2 hands, makes it an AOW. Similar to putting a foregrip on a Glock pistol...

You can purchase pistols made to fire the .45LC that can also shoot .410, but the weapon was initially designed to do just that. It is also rumored that you can only shoot slugs from this, but I dont know for sure on that one. I do know that very soon those pistols will more than likely become part of the NFA/AOW community as well.

I seriously doubt that. You'd then have to outlaw shotshells for .357's .44's etc. ad nauseum...

On a side note, I'm considering a Serbu Super Shorty on an 870 action just because my state outlaws SBS's and my ambition is to own at least one of each type of NFA firearm. This way I can tell myself that the Serbu is the SBS and the Pen Gun is the AOW :cool:

Super-Dave
March 13, 2008, 09:12 AM
Okay what if you took a virgin remington .410 reciever. and A rifled barrel that was made for a .45 long colt. and a magazine tube enhanced to feed the .45 long colt. Put a pistol grip on it. Can you then sell it as a pistol?


I personally would rather have the above configuration in .44 magnum or maybe .500

It would be cool, but also has a legitimate anti bear/cougar or hunting purpose.

Also I would rather fire it than a use one of those huge revolvers like the joker used on the original batman.

Super-Dave
March 13, 2008, 09:15 AM
If the pump action makes it an AOW what if it was a semi auto? Can any of the previous configurations make it a "pistol"?

cabbynate
March 13, 2008, 09:45 AM
Well how about this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=94520758
Looks like fun to me.....

kozak6
March 13, 2008, 08:52 PM
The pump action forend doesn't matter as long as it's not a pistol grip.

Super-Dave, if a company produced a rifled pump action .45 Colt pistol (from a virgin reciever) that just happened to have a chamber that would accept and safely fire .410 shotshells, then it should be a pistol.

Hkmp5sd
March 13, 2008, 08:56 PM
The problem with that theory is that "pump action" requires two hands to operate. If it takes two hands to operate, by definition it cannot be a pistol/handgun.

David Hineline
March 14, 2008, 12:12 AM
Any other weapons (AOW's) are a number of things; smooth bore
pistols, any pistol with more than one grip, (but see below) gadget
type guns (cane gun, pen gun) and shoulder fired weapons with both
rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12" and 18", that must be
manually reloaded (see discussion below).

The AOW classification related to more than one vertical pistol grip, nothing to do with how many hands it takes to operate it.

Plenty of handguns have horizontal grips. It's only a 90 degree angled grip that is a problem.

Even then the ATF allows Tommy Gun Pistols with a vertical grip, because they say so.

Hkmp5sd
March 14, 2008, 10:38 AM
§ 921 Definitions.

(29) The term "handgun" means—

(A) a firearm which has a short
stock and is designed to be held and
fired by the use of a single hand;

How exactly do you operate the pump action with one hand?

A semi-auto action might make the pistol description. Just another gun like the AR-15 pistol or SP-89 only chambered in .45LC. However, if you have to manipulate a pump to shoot it, it is going to require two hands. Ever seen any other "pump action" handgun before?

Bill DeShivs
March 14, 2008, 12:35 PM
You can't OPERATE a bolt action or single shot pistol with one hand either- but you can shoot them one handed. You can't OPERATE A REVOLVER OR SEMI-AUTO WITH ONE HAND EITHER-but you can shoot them one handed.
Notice that it says "held and fired", not operated.

Hkmp5sd
March 14, 2008, 12:48 PM
Doesn't matter our opinion anyway. Gotta have that little note from ATF to make it so. At least until they change their opinion.