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View Full Version : Triple Tap (instead of double tap) - Anyone train this way instead?


Scotty45
March 4, 2008, 01:08 AM
Hi all,

I am just curious if anyone makes a habit of shots in controlled sets of three, rather than two? I guess there is a difference between a double tap and a controlled pair, but either way - do any of you practice three shots in rapid succession?

I guess it is a more comfortable sounding thing to me, whereas one shot may or may not be adequate, and emptying your gun into an assailant would really be scrutinized by a court.

Thoughts?

TexasSeaRay
March 4, 2008, 01:12 AM
That's how we were trained in the military--two to the chest, one to the head, always leaves your tango, nice quiet and dead.

In law enforcement, the suits kinda frowned upon it.

Now that I'm in civilian life, I'll shoot as many times as I need to--and God willing, I'll never have to put another human being in my sights ever again.

Jeff

evan1293
March 4, 2008, 01:14 AM
I train to fire a burst of at least 4. This may sound excessive to some, but remember, these are handgun rounds not rifle rounds and given that most gun fights happen up close, I want the fight to end quickly. Typically, the courts focus on whether or not the shoot was good, not how many rounds were fired. If the shoot was good, you can easily justify 10+ shots required to save your life.

NGIB
March 4, 2008, 04:02 AM
When I'm training with any of my SD guns, I fire rapidly until it's empty. My focus is to put all shots center mass as quickly as possible. The mantra is shoot to stop and who knows whether 1, 2, 3, or more rounds will be required...

Wildalaska
March 4, 2008, 04:09 AM
am just curious if anyone makes a habit of shots in controlled sets of three, rather than two?

Called Rhodesian Drill IIRC

WilddoesitallthetimeAlaska TM

azsixshooter
March 4, 2008, 04:45 AM
I thought 2 shots to center of mass, 1 to the head was called "The Mozambique". Guess it doesn't matter what it's called, if you pull it off it should be pretty effective! A guy at the range who is the head of security for the flight tower here told me to forget about "The Mozambique" though and just focus on putting them all center of mass, so that's how I train.

evan1293
March 4, 2008, 05:47 AM
A guy at the range who is the head of security for the flight tower here told me to forget about "The Mozambique" though and just focus on putting them all center of mass, so that's how I train.


Has he ever heard of body armor?

M14fan
March 4, 2008, 06:38 AM
I have always trained for one to each off switch location (COM, Head) and repeat rapidly as necessary to achieve cessation of hostile activity.

Musketeer
March 4, 2008, 08:26 AM
As explained by Gabe Suarez and others there is rarely the time for the traditional Mozambique where a moment is taken between the torso shots and head shot to gauge the effects.

Two to the torso and immediately line up where the head should be. If it is there fire, if not he has probably gone down so re-evaluate the situation.

Just throwing rounds at the torso is not the best idea. If one or two torso hits have not done the job with modern ammo of suitable caliber then the criminal is likely a bullet sponge who is so hopped up on adrenalin or pharmaceuticals that he is beyond the effects of pain. Only bleeding out, an often long process, or a CNS shot will end it. More holes in his torso that do not break the CNS though will have little immediate effect at that point. Alternatively the criminal may be wearing body armor such as was worn in the Tyler Texas shooting. Mark Wilson, law abiding civilian, managed to get at least one torso hit in on the shooter with his 45ACP. The body armor defeated it and allowed the criminal to bring his rifle to bear, eventually killing Wilson. Other criminals, notably other rampage shooters such as the Red Branch MN shooter, have used body armor.

So, if two rounds to the torso have not immediately ended the threat it is time to move on to other areas. The head is certainly harder to hit, which is why it is not the first target, but if the primary area appears to not be effected move on immediately.

My answer is, I practice two fast shots to the torso and one to the head with no delay longer than needed to align on the target. If in real life I bring the gun up to where the head should be for the third shot and it is not there I don't need to fire it. If on the other hand it is there I am not going to stand there waiting for him to decide to give up or not.

buzz_knox
March 4, 2008, 08:57 AM
The new trend is towards the Non-Standard Response. Shoot the center of the chest multiple times and if the subject is still continuing the action that caused him/her to be shot, go for the head. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

TacticalDefense1911
March 4, 2008, 11:19 AM
Sorry, I'm shooting till the SOB is on the ground. I've heard too many stories of guys doing "text book" double taps, stop firing, and the BG fires back.

Two to the torso and immediately line up where the head should be. If it is there fire, if not he has probably gone down so re-evaluate the situation.

Good luck doing that under pressure.

novaDAK
March 4, 2008, 11:36 AM
two to COM, one to the head.

But I wouldn't call it a triple tap...because that would require you to only have one sight picture for three shots...not possible if you're moving your point of aim from COM to the head.

PaulBk
March 4, 2008, 11:44 AM
I don't recall the author, but I recently read an article about a private bodyguard company in South America (where .32 ACP is all that civilians are allowed) advocating a triple when using smaller calibers. He trained his staff to shoot three quick ones starting at COM and working up to the head.

I have incorporated this into my training.

-Paul

Musketeer
March 4, 2008, 12:43 PM
Good luck doing that under pressure.
Good luck drawing under pressure. Good luck actuating the safety under pressure. Good luck hitting the target under pressure.

That is why we practice.

So how many rounds do you plan on emptying into the torso before realizing "this isn't working"? There are two public rampage shootings I know of in the last year or two, without doing research, where body armor was worn by the criminal. There have been plenty of cases where adrenaline kicks in or drugs counter the pain aspect of being shot resulting in the target not going down.

If pain is not going to stop him and blood loss is going to take anywhere from 14 seconds to hours to stop him all you have left is CNS. At that point the head is your best bet and continuing to plow rounds into a bullet sponge's torso will be of little help.

Alex45ACP
March 4, 2008, 12:55 PM
I carry a Glock 18 with a 33 round magazine. I train to just unload the entire magazine into the target.

:p

Frank Ettin
March 4, 2008, 01:22 PM
I vary, randomly, the number of rounds in each string during any one practice. And I'll throw in a Mozambique now and again. I want to avoid programing myself to fire any specific number of shots.

A while ago I took a class from Louis Awerbuck. He had us shooting strings of from two to five shoots, at our discretion, and doing speed reloads as necessary .

MPD223
March 4, 2008, 01:55 PM
We train two to the body one to the head...Ensures the threat is stopped

TacticalDefense1911
March 4, 2008, 02:41 PM
So how many rounds do you plan on emptying into the torso before realizing "this isn't working"?

You would be the first I have seen complain about shooting at center mass; I have seen many people oppose attempting head shots. I think that the smartest thing to do is move; fire and make contact on the BG; and find cover. If you stand there like a boob and try to put two to the chest and one to the head like you do at the firing range I believe that the results will not be what you want, even with hours and hours of practice. IMO, the method of starting to shoot center mass and work towards the head is a much better practice then the double tap then head method.

Tactics dictate that you should be on the move when engaging a BG; it drastically lowers the probability of being hit. I dont think that a head shot on the move is a high percentage shot, sorry.

tplumeri
March 4, 2008, 02:56 PM
Good luck doing that under pressure.

yeah, thats the point!
i shot and hit (i thought) left chest, but he kept comming. Vest? Miss?
second shot in upper L thigh. BG goes down.
first shot actually hit a little high. L shoulder. no vest but lots of "pain killers".
second shot fracured his femur.
i guess if i needed a third it might have been head, but i think it would be hard to shoot someone in the face. (emotionally)
JMHO
tom

NukeCop
March 4, 2008, 03:07 PM
Not sure if anyone else has been doing this, but we've been getting trained recently to shoot at the hip bones. The idea being that it is low enough most armor wont cover it, and that if the individual is hopped up on something, it won't matter, as a smashed hip won't allow your BG to continue towards you.

Your thoughts on this?

Glenn E. Meyer
March 4, 2008, 03:40 PM
I remember an argument about this. It's not clear that you will disable the hip. The bones are big and may not shatter. The round may just make a hole in it - which is an ouch for sure but not a dropper.

If they fall down, they can still shoot you. But, if you are shooting and nothing happens - it's the noggin and then the hip.

Whirlwind06
March 4, 2008, 03:40 PM
Not sure if anyone else has been doing this, but we've been getting trained recently to shoot at the hip bones. The idea being that it is low enough most armor wont cover it, and that if the individual is hopped up on something, it won't matter, as a smashed hip won't allow your BG to continue towards you.


I have heard of this before. The article I read suggested that it was a fast way to get rounds on target from a low ready position. Then walk the rounds up the target.

Scotty45
March 4, 2008, 04:06 PM
If they fall down, they can still shoot you. But, if you are shooting and nothing happens - it's the noggin and then the hip.

Thanks for the input, all. I think the hip prospect is a good idea. The above comment worries me, because if they go down but are still able to shoot at us, I would think they are in a better advantage for shooting back at us. I suppose cover for us would be needed if the hip option is taken?

TacticalDefense1911
March 4, 2008, 04:22 PM
Not sure if anyone else has been doing this, but we've been getting trained recently to shoot at the hip bones.

This might drop them but if they have a firearm they are "still in the fight". Even on the ground they could shoot back. It only puts them on the ground, it does not incapacitate them and keep them from returning fire. Personally, I wouldnt do it, but thats me.

buzz_knox
March 4, 2008, 04:24 PM
As mentioned above, hips by design tend to be difficult to shatter and tend to just get nice holes punched through them. You'll also find that more than a few people have been ambulatory after accidents, and found out later they had a broken hip. If the hip bone is fragmented or shattered with the pieces separated, motion is possible.

Musketeer
March 4, 2008, 04:31 PM
but i think it would be hard to shoot someone in the face. (emotionally):confused:

If you aren't ready to accept the consequences of shooting someone you know you need to then don't rely on a gun to defend yourself.

Head, arm, leg, testicals or any other part I can shoot to end the fight is getting shot if needed. A person dead from a shot through the heart is just as dead as one with a hole in is face and his brains on the back wall.

Pelvic shots have long been advocated by some. Gage Suarez gives some credence to them and Jim Cirillo, who has been there and done that more than almost anyone else out there, swore by them. He advocated them as an excellent way to cover a criminal as well, sighting on the pelvis, because it allowed you to observe the hands clearly. Remember, hands kill. There are limitations though. If you can break the pelvis he will fall, and no amount of PCP will allow him to stand. Breaking that bone with a handgun round is problematic though. It is an easier target though than a head and often unprotected should body armor be present.

Cirillo also mentioned those shot there tended to have the fight go out of them quicker than with other shots (not including a CNS shot). Read his book available from Amazon for plenty of first hand accounts and rationale behind his decisions.

Nobody is advocating standing there dumbly waiting to appraise the BG's condition. Three shots though should be able to be fired accurately at normal engagement distances in less time than it takes to say "One Two Three." Fight or Flight, Fight then Flight or Flight then Fight is a decision that needs to be made on the spot. We are also not discussing failure drills being performed at 25 Yards. If the range is 25 yards it is hard to understand why I am sticking around in a gunfight to begin with when I should quickly be at 50 yards with a couple walls between myself and the criminal.

tplumeri
March 4, 2008, 05:58 PM
what i said:
but i think it would be hard to shoot someone in the face. (emotionally)

what you said:
If you aren't ready to accept the consequences of shooting someone you know you need to then don't rely on a gun to defend yourself.


what i said:
i guess if i needed a third it might have been head, but i think it would be hard to shoot someone in the face. (emotionally)


I had already shot twice and disabled the BG.
I have also shot human beings in combat.
i really think i know the consequenses of carrying a gun a gun and shooting at someone.
tom

DMacLeod
March 4, 2008, 06:07 PM
Like TexasSeaRay, the military taught me the same thing. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head.

The Canuck
March 4, 2008, 06:21 PM
In the Infantry we were taught two sets of reactions. In CQB we would use a FTN drill (two to COM and 1 to the head) while at range we would go one to COM and if that failed to neutralize the threat (stop the BG from trying to kill you) one more and then one to the pelvic girdle. The reason being was at two hundred meters with a C7 (Basically an M16A2) you could expect to hit the guy in the hips, but the head was too small. I could still make the shots to the head out to 200m with the iron sights, but that was on the range, not IN it.

meanoldman
March 4, 2008, 06:46 PM
two to center mass-evaluate-bad guy still up- aimed head
shot-miss or shot too hard to make-one to pelvic girdle. still up-run like hell.

Erik
March 4, 2008, 11:12 PM
I've been trained to shoot as many times as necessary, and train others to do so as well. The drills reflect that, including various combos, including the Mozambique Drill.

chilie23
March 4, 2008, 11:26 PM
I drill with COM only, COM and head shots, Head shots only, and from various positions and angles. I Aim for specific spots, such as a shoulder on a silhouette or the left side of the silhouette head and try to place my rounds right there. I learned long ago playing paintball that humans will attempt to minimize their exposed surface area if you are firing projectiles towards them. So you may only have a foot, or cheek or shoulder to see and hit!

EastSideRich
March 4, 2008, 11:34 PM
I don't feel I really have the training or experience to post here, but I'm going to do it anyway.

At the range with all pistols I will run all three (controlled pair, "Mozambique", and bursts of 4). When I am fully warmed-up, with my 9mm I generally will fire 4 bursts of 4 with a slight (~0.25 sec) pause in between (15 round magazine +1). With my .40 I like 4 bursts of 3 with a longer pause (12 round magazine), all COM. With the 9mm I can usually put all 16 in a pretty tight group like this, and it's fun. Burns through alot of ammo real quick though, and lots of ammo = lots of $$.

I don't have my carry gun yet, but when I get it, I will probably "train" using 3 shot bursts COM. With 10+1 9mm that should give me three bursts of 3 with a couple left over. I would hope that would be adequate to stop a threat, barring any armor.

I am not accurate enough yet to quickly pull off 2 COM followed by a clean head shot; my third is on target only about half of the time if I'm trying to go real quick; on a moving target it's probably not going to happen. I am always amazed when I see video of guys putting 2 right on top of each other and another one right between the eyes as fast as they can pull the trigger - pop-pop-pop. My hat's off to any of you guys who can do it.

In reality I don't shoot enough for anything to be automatic except aim for the biggest target, so when I practice for real it's always COM. If TSHTF, I have no idea how I'll react. I would hope I'd have the presence of mind to fire a couple of bursts, assess, and react accordingly, but who knows. I hope to God I never find out.

(usmc)optic
March 4, 2008, 11:47 PM
failure to stop,"mozimbique" same thing.......i train my guys to shoot 2 to the chest for cavity shock, and a incapacitating shot to the mendula oblingata(t-box) basically a rectangle around the eyes, and lower nose, side angle ears, and upper angle(from a building) hair line.your going to have to offset aim though at close range.you can do 2 to the hips, it wont kill him but it will bring him down.train....train....train.....build muscle memory and if you ever get into a conflict(hopefully never)you will be more or less on auto pilot.

(usmc)optic
March 4, 2008, 11:57 PM
train for everything.....double taps(hammer pairs) single shots(for accuracy) failure drills(three shots....two to chest-pelvis-one to head) side shots....throw in some weapon malfunctions....modified prone.......i dont know, i have been lucky enough to train with pat rogers....he came and put us(marine)through a week long course and it rocked.....since then i have done various weapon manipulation courses...unknown distance courses among other things in the millitary.........training cannot hurt, but on the same token training wrong can kill.it all boils down to muscle memory.....shooting a couple hundred rounds a year wont do it....get your finger raw, and some hot brass down your gear (without flinching and maintaining your discipline of course) go out for a weekend or longer and shhot hundreds of rounds a day if you can.......reload if you have trouble affording it....i have the privilage of getting free training though sorry guys

Night Trooper
March 5, 2008, 01:10 AM
The pelvic girdle/groin has two wonderful things called the femoral arteries (and veins also) in the folds of the legs, relatively close to the surface. This is the site that the heart docs stick the catheters in (veins) to get to people's hearts to do their stent magic. The Fem arteries are about as wide as your thumb. You can make someone who is trying to kill you less mobile (as mentioned above, people can still move and the perp will still have hand movement compared to the T box shot). Great situation to seek cover and wait until they bleed out. Another tool for the toolbox, I practice head shots but throw in a low pelvic shot every once in a while (at least that's the way I explain that low "flier" to my shooting buddy!!)

TexasSeaRay
March 5, 2008, 02:04 AM
Anyone here ever been shot in the hip?

I have. It hurt like a mother you-know-what-er.

Took a 7.62x39 in the right hip while exfiltrating in a bigtime hurry when an operation got blown and I was all by my lonesome running for my life.

Trust me. When I hit the ground, my first thought wasn't, "Aw, hell. It's just a hip. I still have my weapon and can return fire."

Hell, no. My first thought was that I was about to die, the pain was so bad.

I managed to struggle to a semi-sitting position and begin returning fire, but I honestly thought I was going to pass out from the pain. Thank God for those Marines who jumped out of the chopper, scooped me up and threw me in while the rounds were pinging away. Inside the chopper, I DID pass out when the corpsman poked around to see what damage was done.

Sorry, but don't casually or idly dismiss a hip shot. If the guys shooting at me had been closer, I would sure as hell have been killed that night.

As far as all this "practice" goes, what I practice at is not being places where I might need to put all this practice and training to use. Maybe I'm just getting wimpy and chicken as I grow older.

Jeff

Musketeer
March 5, 2008, 09:30 AM
As far as all this "practice" goes, what I practice at is not being places where I might need to put all this practice and training to use. Maybe I'm just getting wimpy and chicken as I grow older.

Jeff

I think anyone who isn't full of fecal matter or just plain stupid would have to agree, not being there is the best option! The only problem is the criminal is not always willing to obey the agreement to avoid each other...

buzz_knox
March 5, 2008, 12:21 PM
The only problem is the criminal is not always willing to obey the agreement to avoid each other...

Agreed. It seems like the places we'd have to avoid to insure we wouldn't have to use a weapon include, but are not limited to:

1. malls
2. places of worship
3. our places of employment
4. non-restaurant commercial establishemts
5. restaurants
6. hospitals
7. our homes
8. homes of friends
9. government facilities at the local, state and federal level
10. parks

Where can we go that criminals can't?

Glenn E. Meyer
March 6, 2008, 11:36 AM
Where can we go that criminals can't?

The grave.

buzz_knox
March 6, 2008, 11:42 AM
The grave

If you count grave robbers and zombies, we're not even safe then.

tplumeri
March 7, 2008, 07:01 PM
If you count grave robbers and zombies, we're not even safe then.

DAMN ZOMBIES!!
now zombies is the one time you need to go for a head shot FIRST!!!
i wouldnt have any emotional qualms about that.
:)

ActivShootr
March 8, 2008, 02:46 PM
The quintouple tap. :D

Double Naught Spy
March 8, 2008, 04:45 PM
A guy at the range who is the head of security for the flight tower here told me to forget about "The Mozambique" though and just focus on putting them all center of mass, so that's how I train.

Has he ever heard of body armor?

So how many rounds do you plan on emptying into the torso before realizing "this isn't working"? There are two public rampage shootings I know of in the last year or two, without doing research, where body armor was worn by the criminal. There have been plenty of cases where adrenaline kicks in or drugs counter the pain aspect of being shot resulting in the target not going down.

Mark Wilson of Tyler, Texas had owned a gun range and taught defensive gun classes. He apparently instituted a Bill Drill against a bad guy wearing multiple layers of body armor. Depending on reports, he shot 5-7 times and hit the bad guy all but one or two times. Most of the impacts were right where they should be, COM, one was low and outside. It is the only one that penetrated his body. The bad guy then shot Wilson with a rifle, then walked over and capped him in the head. For whatever reasons, Wilson never tried a head shot and apparently was slow to realize the torso shots just weren't doing the job.

Sorry, but don't casually or idly dismiss a hip shot.
Okay, I hear the same thing about gut shots, some torso shots, and how painful they are. What was the actual damage to your hip?

That's how we were trained in the military--two to the chest, one to the head, always leaves your tango, nice quiet and dead.
Like TexasSeaRay, the military taught me the same thing. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head.

Y'all must not have been in the Amy cause they don't teach that according to U.S.SFC_RET.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191405&highlight=point+target+area+target

(usmc)optic
March 11, 2008, 08:56 PM
quote Y'all must not have been in the Amy cause they don't teach that according to U.S.SFC_RET.

nope, usmc for me

(usmc)optic
March 11, 2008, 08:57 PM
and yes im computer illiterate

5whiskey
March 11, 2008, 09:23 PM
headshots...

I believe that the Marine Corps has just gotten serious about EMP (I know USMCoptic will know what it is) in the past few years. I never fired an EMP course until I got back from Afghanistan. Our Bt Gunner went to a class as soon as we got back, and when he got back from the class thats all we did. I don't know how we got the ammo to blow, but between all of my deployments we would drop 300 rounds per man a month shooting EMP. It started just being a Bt thing, then they tried to incorporate it into the field fire section of the rifle range last time I qualed.

Headshots are taught wholesale... yes the abdula thingy between the nose and eyes. I remember picking the terds out of the company to paint circles and triangles on targets all day.

Anyway, back on topic... the Marine Corps and quiet a few of the Army units I have had the pleasure of working with teach mozambique, 2 to the chest 1 to the head. I'm not sure if the Army has standardized EMP like the Marine Corps has done of late, so there may be a training difference between units. That happens alot.

I agree with the hip/groin shot though. I had a retired gunner as a teacher at acog instructors course. He advocated going for groin shots instead of head shots, but left it up to individual preference. I wound up crossing over to the groin side. Some kids started to try for head shots close range, groin shots long range... I prefer to keep it simple. The last thing you need is one more decision to make when your arse is getting shot at. Head or groin??? Oh S($T...

ckd
March 11, 2008, 10:22 PM
Shoot to stop the threat; may be one, or X number, generally using two COM, two head, repeat as necessary, until the threat falls from your sights and is incapable of returning fire- no pauses, a continum of controlled rapid fire.

ChewToy
March 13, 2008, 04:44 PM
USAF SF Here and we shoot 2+1. Been that way for about 6 or so years now, before that it was all center mass.

(usmc)optic
March 13, 2008, 05:47 PM
+1 to chewtoy
+1 to wheeler0351

SLOMountaineer
March 13, 2008, 08:23 PM
I have been in LE for 19 years and an instructor for about 12 years. The double tap method of training is stupid in my opinion. There should be all sorts of variations. Some of the older guys who have been double-tapping the paper to death for years have actually holstered their weapons in training exercises even when the scenario had the bad guy still alive and a threat. While I have not personally seen it, I have heard that in actual combat situations the officer has holstered even before the threat was neutralized. In training and in "real-life", you should fire until the target is down and no longer a threat. All this talk about being afraid of being sued is going to get someone killed one of these days if it hasn't already. that should not even be on your mind...staying alive should be your focus and if that means filling the guy full of lead, so be it.

TacticalDefense1911
March 13, 2008, 08:25 PM
you should fire until the target is down and no longer a threat.

Thank you :D Someone with some experience that can back up my opinion.

SLOMountaineer
March 13, 2008, 09:03 PM
This whole aiming at the head thing is great if the guy just stands there and lets you do it. Try taking a head shot when the head is moving and the guy is shooting back at you. Shoot at the hips? Are you kidding me? In a combat shoot you shouldn't even be looking at the sights. You should have that weapon in a platform that is so familiar that when you are in a combat situation you are looking at the target, then you just bring that weapon into your line of sight and fire. Trust me, you won't be having time to line up your sights and go for heads, or hips, or whatever.

Scotty45
March 14, 2008, 10:14 AM
Some of the older guys who have been double-tapping the paper to death for years have actually holstered their weapons in training exercises even when the scenario had the bad guy still alive and a threat. While I have not personally seen it, I have heard that in actual combat situations the officer has holstered even before the threat was neutralized.

This is crazy - I am not in military or LE, only looking to train for defensive needs. But I guess I assumed you keep your bg in the line of your sights even after a single or double-tap. People train to holster after firing two shots automatically?

I am not one to criticize, don't get me wrong. I just don't understand why this would be a method. I suppose multiple targets would necessitate moving onto another target after sufficiently taking care of the first.

But holstering? :confused:

Musketeer
March 14, 2008, 10:44 AM
People train to holster after firing two shots automatically?


With some VERY old school training I understood this to be a problem under stress. If your training and all your practice for 10+ years is to draw, fire two shots and holster your weapon what do you think is going to happen when adrenaline kicks in and you fall back on training.

There are enough first hand accounts of gunfights where the shooter recalls vividly that he focused on his front sight to discount any blanket statements knocking aimed fire.

ChewToy
March 14, 2008, 11:04 AM
This was another issue that the USAF addressed when we went from all center mass to 2+1. After we fire our shots we "scan" weapon following eyes for new/previously unseen BGs for 5-10sec. There is also an emphasis on re-holstering without looking at your holster so you can continue to scan.

SLOMountaineer
March 14, 2008, 11:34 AM
You are taught to scan before holstering but I think it comes from the whole double-tap mentality. You get into a rut where everything is fire twice, scan, reholster that people just started skipping the scan part. It was more evident amongst the "old-school" officers.

I don't like training double-tap, triple-tap, 2+1, whatever. It should be fire until neutralized. Most training should be repetition in bring the platform up to the line of sight. I train no use of sights until you get out to 25 yards behind cover.

Triple Tap
September 7, 2009, 12:40 PM
We were trained to triple tap in the POST certified academy in California

Claude Clay
September 7, 2009, 12:51 PM
i am a point shooter and know when a shot is off and needs another.
plates, CASS & IDPA; my 1st and 2nd shots are made before the sights are in front of my eyes. if the rule of 'on target/on trigger' is enforced i sometime draw a penalty and/or been DQ'd.

there are a couple of other point shooters at the club and honestly, we dont care--we shoot as we train. we also share the ability to count our shots [sub-conscious]. even with penalties, generally 2 of us will be in the top 5 .

before this becomes side tracked about point shooting; some people speak 5 languages, some are great at math, some hit what they see.
everyone has abilities and everyone has shortcomings.

45Gunner
September 7, 2009, 12:57 PM
Not so many years back, I trained with an Agency that will remain unnamed. Their drill was 3 rapid fire shots and all were to be center mass. The intell behind this was that anytime weapons were drawn, it was going be close combat and warning shots were not an option. Kill now, ask questions later. I might add that we carried 13 +1.

Mello2u
September 7, 2009, 10:11 PM
I've talked to a couple of law enforcement officers from two different departments that only allowed their officers to carry 9mm parabellum pistols. They said they were trained to shoot three times center of mass and assess.

Zombie thread . . . . . . .

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb197/farwalker/1zombiegif.gif

It's been dead for about a year and a half!

Dannyl
September 8, 2009, 12:10 AM
Hi All,
there are many posts here with a lot of valuable information and the fact of life is that no two scenarios will unfold in the same way. ther are just too many variables.

Other than the fact that I practice different drills, I want to call your attention to what you do after shooting;

I have seen a lot of people practice their drills, be it double taps, Mozmbique, long trings etc, who repeatedly start from their middrift or hip, shoot the string, and then lower their firearm, moving the muzzle away from the target.

Because of all the variables mentioned here such as shot placed in non vitals, BG with too much pain killer in his stream, misses, BP vests I strongly recommend to get into a practice that regardless of what drill you have fired,(and even if your target has gone down, but may still be breathing) keep your muzzle on the target while adquiring a sight-picture ( this may not be possible in dark conditions, but you should train for it) and keep your target covered until you are sure that it (he) is neutralized and no longer a threat. during this time your head should scan around (without loosing sight of your primary target) for other threats.

The reason for scanning by moving your head is that in stress situations you will be prone to have tunnel vission to certain extent, and by moving your head your scan will be more effective.

Personally I practice different strings, not one single drill, but in essence, you can only stop shooting once your target has been neutralized.

Brgds,

Danny

domininance
September 8, 2009, 03:24 AM
when i attended the US training center tactical pistol course they taught a variety of multi-shot and failure type drills with a specific goal in mind of not ingraining any bad habits, so that you don't double tap and re holster in the middle of the fight.

First, from the beginning of the class we were instructed to always reacquire the target in your sights after any drill or volley of shots, then return the gun to safe and re holster after you determine the threat is neutralized. this is so that in a real life encounter if your first attempt doesn't neutralize your target you will automatically be ready to reengage and not have prematurely put down yoru weapon.

Second we never did just "this" or just "that". we practiced all kinds of combinations of all kinds of shots, always maintaining consistency with your form, and always reacquiring your target in your sights after the drill, no matter which drill, for the above reason.

Some of the variations of drills we did were:
2-4 to chest, 1 to head
2-4 to chest, 2 to head
2-4 to chest, 2 to pelvic girdle
2-4 to chest, 2 to pelvic girdle, 1 to head

basically i could write combinations of drills for days but you get the point. the idea is to not ingrain any drill into you, but to practice a wide variety of scenarios while maintaining consistent form. the drills should vary, your form should not. Also, our instructor was a big advocate of the pelvic girdle, obviously the head shot is most effective but its not always an option, be prepared to use either or both

the way you draw your gun from your holster, should be the same every time. the way you reholster your gun should be the exact same way you draw your gun, but executed in reverse, and done the same way every time. this almost starts to verge on arbitrary but by practicing the same thing every time like this you ingrain the right habits in yourself so that when the time comes it an instinctual response.

one more thing about the sight reacquire point, we were instructed to go so far as to have the trigger reset and the slack in the trigger pulled back basically ready to fire another shot, then release the trigger and remove your finger from the trigger guard, then reholster.

again it seems almost arbitrary to break it down that detailed but by practicing the same thing every time you will do the same thing when the time comes to rely on these skills. remember when the s#!% hits the fan you aren't going to perform at your best you are probably going to perform at your worst, so lets make sure our worst is still better than the bad guys best.

Brit
September 8, 2009, 06:52 AM
[QUOTE][People train to holster after firing two shots automatically?/QUOTE]

In training Ex Police Officers (from the revolver era) that was so ingrained it was part of the speed drill!

The reason, not a bad one for double taps in the first place, if 6 shots was all you had in a .38 Revolver, two at a time gave you better hits, and 2 was twice as good as one.

Once 18 rounds became available, in your fist, shooting a bunch was the order of the day.

In working with a group who fired triple taps, always, and then ran at the target, flat out ran, foot stamping stops, then a shot into the 8" ballon taped to the concrete. That is the no one walks away drill! Gives you a whole new perspective to close qtr; battle.

If you are a reasonable shot, and all you can see is a big toe jutting out from a corner of a wall, shoot it!

MLeake
September 8, 2009, 09:01 AM
To those who are amazed that a shooter would holster automatically after firing a double-tap, because the shooter had always trained that way, two examples:

1) The Miami bank robber shootout, that gets cited so often on TFL: According to some reports, agents had difficulty reloading weapons during the fight; apparently, as a group, the agents hadn't trained in fast re-loading.

2) A senior student in my prior martial arts organization, with the DC affiliate, was assaulted in a bar in DC. Small guy, glasses, looks like a middle-aged accountant. He surprised the bar bully by taking away the knife with which the bar bully had threatened him, while depositing said bar bully unceremoniously on the floor. He then surprised the bar bully further, by handing him back his knife. Luckily, this really freaked out the bully ("Why is this guy giving my knife back?") and the bully left the scene. When our organization's grand master heard about this, he made us change our knife defense training, so that we no longer handed the training knives and bokken back to our training partners after disarming them, but instead tossed them away on the mat so they had to go get them.

3) A flight student, on his first actual flight in the trainer after several above average CPT (non-motion simulator) events, aborted an engine start. When my friend (his instructor on that hop) asked him why he had aborted the start, the student said "Sir, the prop started spinning!!" (Note: The CPT doesn't have external visual, so even though the RPM gauge comes up to speed during the start, the student hadn't put 2 and 2 together...)

Bartholomew Roberts
September 8, 2009, 09:55 AM
Anyone here ever been shot in the hip?

No; but met a 78yr old lady who broke her hip. She walked around on it for a week before the pain got so bad she decided to come see the doctor about it. She was definitely a tough ol' gal; but not exactly in peak physical condition.

I think it just goes to show that there aren't any certainties when it comes to how people react to injuries. My thinking is that you have to assume that people will continue to do whatever they are physically capable of doing. Maybe they won't and that is great too; but that isn't the way to plan.

I also think lots of excellent arguments have been made concerning why the pelvis is not an ideal target. I won't bother repeating them since if you aren't convinced by the guys who wrote them, then nothing I've got to say is likely to carry more weight.

Skans
September 8, 2009, 12:42 PM
I train double taps. What if you have more than one attacker? Are you going to unload your entire magazine and then go "CRAP - I AIN'T GOT NONE FOR YOU!!!"

I mainly find that my shots are better placed and more controled doing double taps. But, of course it depends on the situation. I like knowing that I can competently shoot a rappid burst of two shots accurately.

Bud Helms
September 8, 2009, 12:58 PM
I train for the sextuple tap. Then reload. I try to scan, but it's tough to see past the puffed up chest feathers.

:rolleyes:

serf 'rett
September 8, 2009, 05:17 PM
Just fell off the turnip truck a few months ago into the idea of actually training for self defense with firearms. Is there any benefit to training with multiple targets and a third party calling out a mixup – left center, mid head, left head, right low, etc. etc? I’ve toyed with this idea as a variance from what I’d call “set piece” drills. Anybody ever tried this? Can it be done with speed? And would it perhaps be bad conditioning like the “two shot holstering” previously discussed?

Nnobby45
September 8, 2009, 07:00 PM
I train double taps. What if you have more than one attacker? Are you going to unload your entire magazine and then go "CRAP - I AIN'T GOT NONE FOR YOU!!!"

Training to do double taps doesn't mean you're a brainless robot incapable of realizing a multiple threat and burn up all your ammo on one guy--which suggests misses. If you couldn't hit him, what makes you think you could hit the other guy, anyway?

My training, while not as extensive as some of you, perhaps more than others, has always been to shoot until the threat is over.

By all means learn the double tap. Learn fast multiple shots, also. But "training to dbl tap" has a suggestion of stopping to evaluate after two shots. Something LE got away from some time ago for good reason.

The double tap is a tactic. Not a tactical phylosophy. Same for two to the chest and one upstairs. I know I'm not the only one to see films of convience store shootings, etc. Ever notice that things happen kinda fast, and there isn't anyone standing there doing a neat little "two for this guy", and here's "two for the other one". Or, "I'll do two to the chest and go upstairs"? They look like down and dirty fights for survival to me with basic skills being paramount.

Chindo18Z
September 8, 2009, 11:44 PM
buzz_knox: The new trend is towards the Non-Standard Response. Shoot the center of the chest multiple times and if the subject is still continuing the action that caused him/her to be shot, go for the head. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

This is the trend in my unit with controlled pairs going the way of the dinosaurs.

M4A1s & M9s...multiple assaulters...everyone with a piece of the target in his sector of fire riddles the opponent until he falls down or goes away.

Opponents get serviced by accurate, semi-auto AIMED fire, each shooter delivering 4-8 rounds COM. Target shot again as needed. Seems to work as well in combat as the shoot house. Very, very few wounded survivors once contact is initiated.

Failure drill: Go for whats available (head/neck or below the armor/waistline).

YMMV.

Dr Raoul Duke
September 9, 2009, 12:50 AM
My original training was what I read from Col. Charles Askins, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan in the early '60s. Reading Col. Cooper's works served me very well, in fact I would say that his teaching probably was responsible for my coming home alive, as the training I received from the Navy in '68 was barely rudimentary. They still taught one handed shooting, and they really did not appreciate it when I tried to take the Weaver stance. What I took to the Mekong Delta could be summed up as, "shoot for center mass and repeat until he falls". I shot 7 people with the 1911A1 there and only one took a second shot to end the deal. In police training after coming home it was .38 Specials, but we did have jacketed HPs, and that was when I was introduced to DTs as policy, but that was followed with "evaluate" and go for the head shot if needed. We were never taught to automatically triple. I'm not going to ever wear a badge again, and a handgun is just what I use while I' getting to a rifle or a shotgun. If I ever have to shoot someone again, and sweet Jesus Lord I pray that never happens, it will be because I have no other choice, and I will shoot until my opponent is out of the fight. I have little understanding of what the current military or law enforcement tactical doctrines are, though while they are a bit fascinating, at my age and in my environment they will probably be of little use. :)

Dr. Raoul Duke
Gonzo Forever

Transport
September 9, 2009, 11:34 AM
Our Department states that we shoot until the Threat is eliminated.

Nnobby45
September 9, 2009, 06:48 PM
Our Department states that we shoot until the Threat is eliminated.

Ahh, but alas, that's not an option on the poll.

Number of shots is situational. Not a general tactic to follow. If one shot does the trick, your right to use deadly force has ended. If your dbl. tap doesn't work, then go ahead and stop and "evalutate" if you like.

OR: Shoot until the threat is eliminated which would be withing the parameters of common sense, the law, and tactics that better your chances of survival.

The closer he is, the easier it is for him to kill you. Under such circumstances, training yourself to shoot twice makes as much sense as training to put out a fire with two shorts bursts with a fire extinguisher. Stop when the job's done. But, alas, that's not a choice on the poll---didn't I say that already?

Practice the single shot draw.

Practice the double tap.

Practice the triple tap.

Practice putting multiple hits on the target fast. If you want to know why: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:

The Canuck
September 9, 2009, 07:14 PM
Already answered this one.... a Looooong time ago....

Ticman
September 10, 2009, 07:36 PM
I train to do the slide lock tap. :D

Brit
September 14, 2009, 08:03 AM
If your range allows multiple target placement, try this.

Three targets, one in front of you directly, 5 yds, left at 10 yds, right at 4 yds, two yds spread.

Draw and fire two on each, center, left, then right. Do that again, mark the hits with marker.

Same exercise, but one shot on each, again done twice. Push for speed, normally much better hits with the double taps, only a fraction more time for 6 shots compared to three! I think our time span was .6 of a second more for 6 shots, on average. The reason, movement between targets is the big time add on, not the second trigger press.

Keep Safe.

Wagonman
September 14, 2009, 12:30 PM
I carry a Glock 18 with a 33 round magazine. I train to just unload the entire magazine into the target.



How do you CCW this? :rolleyes:

GeauxTide
September 14, 2009, 03:08 PM
Depress the trigger until the threat is neutralized.

flattop44sc
October 23, 2009, 10:01 PM
I never train for a certain amount of responses. Try to vary but the mozambique still warms my heart. Hip? shooting is a good theory till he uses his good hands to shoot you back from the ground. Hard to beat hardball to the coconut and even better if it's under a second.

CARGUY2244
October 23, 2009, 10:47 PM
How many bogies? If I'm certain only one, the optimal reponse is a zipper. Start at lower torso, and allow the muzzle rise to take you to the top floor. If your fast enough, which comes with training, you'll be at 6 or 7 shots by the time you take out the head, and of course have created a vertical perforation along the way. Problem is, like bad news, bogies usually come in bunches, sometimes unseen, making ammo conservation and multiple target acquisition imperative. Treating every encounter as anything but optimal, put the first shot on the bridge of the nose. Takes a lot of training, markmenship, drawing, and psychological, but at close range, which is almost always where you'll find yourself in this situation, anyone can do it. To the head, one shot, one kill. Then on to the next target.

tpareloader
October 24, 2009, 08:47 AM
Don't stop until the threat is gone...

If one does it, cool, more ammo for me.

If it takes two reloads, 45 rounds, and acting like a lumberjack with a steel pipe on the threat that's what I'll do. :cool:

Glenn Dee
October 24, 2009, 11:40 AM
Hello Fella's ( non generic)

Interesting thread... I'd like to add my own 2 cents if yall dont mind. I'm one of those old timers who was trained to shoot with revolvers. We did have one drill where we would fire two rounds, and holster. This drill was designed more to practice drawing and firing... not firing and holstering.

We also trained to fire twice at center mass, then evaluate the situation. Shoot drills were always married to tactics. So as much as we trained in hitting the target... We trained (at the same time) to be as difficult a target as possible. Cover, and concielment, and body position.


Firing center mass twice did two things as I was taught. If the first shot was a snap-shot, by time you made the second your front sight should be on target. We also wanted to conserve ammo. None of this changed once we transitioned to 15 rnd 9MM pistols.


As civilians, the police and the legally armed parobably should stay away from military methods. IMHO. Considering the so called Mozambique?.. I'd say that a D/A , and 12 citizens would interpet that as an exicution round. Or as the SAS calls it... a security round.


Those proponents of emptying your firearm at the threat?... OK you empty your pistol, and the guy is down and shedding copious amounts of blood. Not moving attall. Now what about his friends... the ones who werent threatening you, or the ones you didnt see.


One other point... Consider you fired 15 rounds at a really bad guy who had terrible intentions. In the end he's down, for good. He never got off a shot at you, or maybe none of his rounds had your name on it. What happened to your 15 rounds did you hit him 15 times?.. did you miss two or three? What stopped them?.. they most certainly have your name on them. Did the stop in a bridge abutment?, or a little girl, or someones wife? It's something to consider when blasting away.

FM12
November 1, 2009, 08:46 PM
You can shoot 'em tiil they're down, but you cant then shoot 'em til they're dead.

The Canuck
November 1, 2009, 10:42 PM
That's where the Enhanced Marksmanship Program comes into play!

Glenn E. Meyer
November 2, 2009, 01:52 PM
The Mozambique is taught as a failure to stop drill as compared to a finishing shot. If done in a quick string as compared to a deliberate finishing shot - it would be quite defensible.

I wouldn't advise folks not to take that shot and continue to pour lead ineffectively into someone on the basis of the hypothetical jury. The jury may be effected by gore but you win if you present the most reasonable story of your actions.

JohnH1963
November 3, 2009, 12:07 AM
If you are firing at someone, then they probably have given you reason to do so. They have an unholstered weapon in which they are about to fire on you or maybe they are in your home charging at you. The only reasonable response in a scenario where you feel your life is threatened is the Powell doctrine. Use overwhelming force to neutralize the threat.

In such life threatening scenarios, I doubt there will be enough time to evaluate if the target is neutralized. The time frame for such scenarios I can imagine to be less then 5 seconds and then there are other factors that cloud the mind such as stress. I hardly believe anyone is just going to fire 2 shots, pause to see if the target has been neutralized and then fire another 2.

The more likely scenario is the shooter is going to pour fire down upon the target until it is obviously down on the floor. The time it takes to fire 5-10 rounds is probably a few seconds. In that time, the target wont have a chance to fall.

I bet most people will pull the trigger as fast as they can pouring as much lead onto the target as possible. The target will eventually fall to the floor, but not after at least half the magazine has been expended. Some people will probably keep shooting while the target is in mid-fall.

By the time the target hits the floor, it will have at least 5-7 holes with blood pouring out everywhere. If the target does not die from a hit to a major area, it will probably die from a loss of blood.

Glenn Dee
November 13, 2009, 03:34 AM
I dont think it's a good idea for civilians to practice swat, or military tactics for self defense situations. It's fun when gaming... but difficult to explain in a real world situation. Servicemen (shooters), and police (swat) train hard, long and often to become as good as they are. One thing to keep in mind is this. Military and police tactics are for the most part small unit operations. Usually in squad strength... More likely in a self defense situation a civilian will be alone, or with a loved one, be lighter armed, and in a situation not of his/her choosing. Different tactics, and a different mindset needed to survive. Different skill set needed to survive. Different training regimen.

DVC45ACP
November 15, 2009, 04:47 PM
I'm generally with Musketeer and others that prefer something like the Mozambique, rather than firing more than two rounds into the torso. I can see arguments for "the more the merrier" in some cases but I think that generally after two solid hits you should be thinking about evaluating, head or other necessary shots, or other potential threats.

ezenbrowntown
November 18, 2009, 03:16 PM
I stop when they are stopped. I train firing the entire magazine. Sometimes I group them COM, sometimes I work my way up. I worry much less about super accurate shots, and more about being able to land hits while on the move. I can't imagine someone coming at me, and me just standing still. I practice moving all different directions at rapid speed. I practice at closer ranges on unholstering my weapon and landing shots without sighting in the target (3 to 7 feet).

I understand training and wanting to be prepared, but let's not assume we can train to a level of untouchable. If someone really wants to get you, you'll get got. Flip your training in reverse and imagine yourself as the bad guy. Could you get the drop on somebody? If so, somebody else with the tactical advantage of being on the offensive could get you too. I train to give myself a better chance, but I"m not under the delusion that I can prepare myself to complete safety. I can just increase my odds. That's why most of my training is done in close ranges.
Headshots are nice in theory, but I'd imagine tough to perform under stress on a moving target. To put it in a better perspective: Imagine being in a batting cage, without the cage. Set the all the other cages machines to aim in your direction, on their highest speed, and shooting balls at varied times rapidly. Then, try to hit a bobbing, moving cantaloupe while on the run to not get hit by a baseball. That would be difficult, and wouldn't even do a self defense shooting justice in comparison of stress.

I think that applies to the body armor situation too. If it ever happened, I'd do my best to survive. But if a guy, shielded in body armor with an AK chooses to attack me, an unknowing civilian with a 9mm, odds are he's going to win. A gun doesn't give me a magic cure all, it just gives me another tool to increase my chances of survival.

Glenn Dee
November 18, 2009, 06:37 PM
+1 ezen...Very well put. Anchored in reality.

tuletime
November 18, 2009, 06:47 PM
Little off the topic but today in Cincinnati the police released a video of a shootout with bad guy and police. There was no double tap or triple tap. Off duty officer who probably saved life of fellow officer fired 13 times at subject in cab of truck. No officers hit and bad guy dead on scene. Police chief stated that all five officers in pursuit and shootout deserves medals for using restraint in attempts to apprehend subject before shooting. So I guess what I am saying is sometimes it boils down to not just "double tap" or "triple tap", but WHATEVER IT TAKES!

Gaxicus
November 18, 2009, 08:52 PM
Practicing three shots at a time makes sense..... for several reasons.

People miss, stressed people miss more, and bad guys usually dont stop with one shot. Thats not it though, read on.

If you are in court because one of those rounds hit the attacker in the head you should be fine if its a clean shoot. If you say you triple tapped him you could be in for a lawsuit. Im not saying you couldnt win, it just leaves more legal room for both criminal and civil layers representing the attacker to use against you.

Whether you had the control to make the third shot a head shot or not, you train to fire three times in a row. Thats what I would stick to.

To clarify something someone else mentioned.

If I shoot 3 times and the attacker still represents any kind of threat in the 1/2 second I may allow to evaluate, I will shoot three more times, not one to the head, just three more shots.

"I practice to shoot three, officer, so thats what I did. If the final three were all in his head, it must have been because I was looking at the attackers enraged face when he was still coming at me." "I was scared and my training took over."

You really want to avoid looking like you executed your attacker.

From a totally practical standpoint. If you practice twice I am not sure you are fully through the recoil compensation cycle to continue if neccesary with the same or other targets. 3 gets you through the recoil compensation cycle and you are in rapid fire mode. If you can train to shoot three... five, or 31(?!) shouldnt be hard to reach from there.

In other words, you want to achieve the most effective state as a shooter which is controlled rapid fire. I think it takes at least three to get there. Once you are there, you can stop and eveluate or switch to other attackers, but once you are in controlled rapid fire mode you are a very nasty opponent. 2 doesnt quite get the shooter to that mode in my view.

Try this:

Practice shooting twice through the capacity of your gun. Reload, then fire the weapon until empty.
Practice shooting three times through the capacity of the gun. Reload, then fire the weapon until empty.

I think you will find that your second clip/mag, whatever after practicing 3 goes a lot faster and with tighter groups than it did going 2x. It does for me.

This is the real power of a 9mm in my view. Train to 3 and you basically have a 500 rpm sub-machine gun in your hands. I totally dismissed the 9mm until I learned to train this way. I still love my 15 round FN p-45 though. Im pretty good but I cant achieve the rate of controlled rapid fire with it that I can with my XD-9. That gun is absolutely vicious when used this way.

Just my .2 (or .3 in this case).

Ryder
November 20, 2009, 03:56 AM
Whatever it takes for me too though I do make it a habit to avoid slide lock. Failure to hold 2 or 3 rounds in reserve with which to scan for additional threats is an extremely bad idea.