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Inspector3711
February 24, 2008, 02:04 AM
Thinking about applying for a permit so I can carry a pistol. Main reason would be because I work in the worst neighborhood in the city I live in. we have a .45 hole through one of the doors and regularly find slugs in the parking lot!
My employer has a rule in the handbook that states that if I have a firearm in my vehicle parked on company property and they find out I will be terminated. I could take the chance or park on the street where cars get broken into regularly.
On one hand this rule smacks of invasion of privacy but on the other it is on their property... By the way, I work for what used to be a medium sized american corporation but has become a mega corporation based in europe in a country that is less than firearm friendly. This rule was not in place until the company changed hands. Ha! Ironically the country in question has had a strong anti Iraq war stance but we are a defense contractor!

What would you do?

bikerbill
February 24, 2008, 09:53 AM
How will they find out? I worked for a similar company for about three years -- no guns on your person or in your car -- and kept a revolver in my glovebox every day. Do they also say you have to let them search your car? jeez, what's this country coming to?

ActivShootr
February 24, 2008, 10:18 AM
www.monster.com

pax
February 24, 2008, 10:48 AM
What would you do?


Cost/benefit analysis. Your factors are ones that only you can really analyze, but some questions you might ask yourself are: who else is relying on your paycheck? how easily can you get another job? how likely is it that your employers will search your vehicle or spot you carrying in the office? is violating workplace policy breaking the law, or simply grounds for termination? how bad is the local neighborhood? how often do you go straight home from work versus running errands into the evening? etc etc You can't really predict whether there will ever be a break-in by a violent, armed, angry ex-employee, but you might give some thought to what you would do if there were, picturing the scene twice, once as if you were armed and once as if you were not. Remember of course that your greatest weapon is the one between your ears.

In the end, you'll make whatever decision you think is right, and then you'll have to live with the consequences of that decision, whatever those consequences are.

pax

Inspector3711
February 24, 2008, 12:18 PM
The only way they would find out is if I had to use it on the premises or on the way home and it made the news. Or if there were a natural or industrial disaster that caused my vehicle to be inspected. It's a pretty bad neighborhood. As far as looking elsewhere for employment goes, I have 23 years in and good pay/security. I'll make my own decision. The post was put up more to see what other people would decide.

Right Wing Wacko
February 24, 2008, 02:26 PM
If possible, park off site. They have no business telling you what you can do offsite.

Get a Car Gun Safe. There are many models, but I use a Gun Vault Deluxe (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0005562222855a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=gun+vault&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=gun+vault&noImage=0), with a cable securing it. There are smaller and cheaper devices that will do the job just as well. This way if someone breaks into your car, you will not be arming them... or at least they will have to work for it.

chris in va
February 24, 2008, 03:35 PM
I see it this way, after working for a VERY large corporation for 7 months.

If you wish to be employed there, you must follow their policies. Some constitutional rights get taken away once you step foot on their premises, depending on their rules.

That being said, I left my gun in the vehicle before going to work. I wasn't about to be unarmed going to/from work and any errands I had to do. Rules said no firearms/weapons on their PROPERTY which included the parking lot.

On a side note, I found it very entertaining this sign posted on one of the back doors. We had big freight roll-up doors that were left wide open all hours, and on one of the 'secure' access pedestrian points was a picture of a guy holding an AK with the caption, "Keep these doors closed, we don't want this in our facility!" Wish I had a picture of that.

Th0r
February 24, 2008, 06:00 PM
Yeah, get a gun safe for your car.

Explain to them why you want it and why you need it and explain to them that it will be safe. If not then dont bother...

Sometimes you have to ask...

Is this worth my career...?

KMO
February 24, 2008, 06:07 PM
The simple fact is that you have absolute freedom to work for any employer you choose (presuming they wish to hire you), or you can work for yourself. If you choose to work for someone else, you have to live with the employer's policies during the hours you are being paid, and while you are on the employer's property. If you don't like those policies, you need to make a career decision, not craft some backdoor way of getting around the rules.

Inspector3711
February 24, 2008, 10:49 PM
I wasn't trying to get around any rules. I'm just not certain that I agree that it's their business what's in my vehicle if I'm doing my job and causing no problems. If they are worried about an employee losing it and coming back in with a gun, they should be more worried about the shootings around the neighborhood that we're in. I've accepted the risk of working in the hood for 23 years. I used to carry a 1" pipe under my seat and once a guy tried to get in at a red light yelling profanities at me. I smashed my dash with the pipe and he ran. I was younger, more physical, and alot wilder then. Now there is a new gang war brewing. There have been 4-5 shootings in the last month. Age and experience have made me more cautious about my safety. Of course I know my opinion about their rules doesn't matter. I know there are several people that have weapons in their cars and they accept the risk. I'm probably not ready to risk it. We'll be moving in two years, I just hope it's in a better neighborhood.

KMO
February 24, 2008, 10:56 PM
I have no idea what sort of business you work for, but can't you just sit down with your manager and explain your situation? Asking for permission to have a weapon locked in your car is very different from asking to carry on the premises. Will they listen to reason? That seems a better approach than doing as some of your co-workers are doing.

TCman
February 24, 2008, 11:28 PM
How would a handgun hidden in you car help if you get mugged on you way to your car? Im not being a smarta**. Im just asking, because idk.

Nnobby45
February 24, 2008, 11:49 PM
I've been retired for a few years, but for 6 years I went to my car in the company pkg. lot, put on my holster and mag. pouch and armed myself before leaving the yard after work.

My company had a strict policy against weapons. Couldn't bring so much as a pocket knife to work before driving off to work in my phone truck stocked with hammers, axes, heavy ground rods, screwdrivers, sheath knives, scissors, etc.

The company's interest was their liability. Not my safety.

A subject often came up amonst us ccw folks. Can the company search our car if it's on company property? If so, can they search a locked container in our vehicle such as a safe, brief case, tool box, etc. I've heard discussions on various boards, but no difinitive answers.:cool:

Boris Bush
February 25, 2008, 12:30 AM
Nnobby45

The 4th amendment protects YOU from illegal search ans siezure. No company rule or policy is above the 4th written law in this countries history. I do not care what the owner of the company or a manager says. A police officer could request to search your personal belongings and if you say no, he cann't ( I know under certain conditions he can, like you broke a law or something else extreme). As long as you keep it clean, follow the law, it does not matter.

I used to work for Lowes and they have the same policy, and many kept their guns in the car, and no one person could do anything about it. If you check the fine print, the policy will state that the individuals personal belongings can not be searched. they can open the locker, and get company owned property, but can not open your lunchbox or any thing that belongs to you.

How do I know, I challenged them, showed them the wording of their own policy and a copy of the law and a copy of the bill of rights. After that it was all good and we all went about our business. They also have a policy that customers can not carry in their stores, but will not post the sign in the window at the majority of the stores. I still shop their, great place to get home stuff, and yes I do carry while I shop there...

Casimer
February 25, 2008, 12:36 AM
The company's interest was their liability. Not my safety.
bingo

Personally I would do what I thought necessary.

ActivShootr
February 25, 2008, 02:15 AM
Move out of the ghetto ASAP. I know this is easier said than done but if you are concerned for your saftey and your employer is obviously not, find a job somewhere else. You stated that you had 23 years of experience. I would be willing to bet that there is someone out there that is looking for someone with your qualifications.

If you don't want to move, you can either break company policy or go unarmed. It is that simple. If the policy states "no firearms" then they will probably not make one exception just for you. I work for a company that has a similar policy. The area in which I work does not have a high crime rate but if it did , I would look for another place of employment.

If you do not want to move and insist on carring to work, buy a lock box for your vehicle and keep quiet about it.

Don H
February 25, 2008, 11:34 AM
The 4th amendment protects YOU from illegal search ans siezure. No company rule or policy is above the 4th written law in this countries history.
The Bill of Rights was developed to restrict government, not private parties. For example, if you tell your boss exactly what you think of him, of his ancestry and graphically detail his unsavory personal habits, you will not be able to claim First Amendment free speech protections to prevent your termination from the company.

To return to the subject of vehicle searches: Most states will allow companies to request your permission to search your vehicle and many company policies are so worded. You can, of course, refuse to grant such permission but the company may have the right to terminate your employment. I have heard of a couple of instances where, as part of the hiring process, a new employee is required to sign a permission form granting the company permission to search a vehicle at will.

David Armstrong
February 25, 2008, 11:56 AM
What would you do?
A lot of that depends on how honest and ethical you are. Basically, the company will probably never find out if you are violating the rule. BUT-- you have an agreement with them. They will give you money and you will follow the rules. Do you think it would be OK if they were to not hold up their end of the bargain? IMO, you take their money you should be honest and follow their rules.

jabotinsky
February 25, 2008, 12:55 PM
Don't want to be an irresponsible poster or seem well, unethical, but to be candid, I'd break that rule in about two seconds.

David Armstrong
February 25, 2008, 01:15 PM
Sadly, you are not alone. One can only wonder how you would feel if the company were to have the same philosophy. "Yeah, I know we agreed to pay you $25/hr with full benefits, but we decided the agreement isn't to our liking, so we are giving you $8/hr for this last week. Oh, BTW, we also decided not to give you any benefits." I'd imagine you'd be fairly upset (and rightly so) that the company didn't live up to its side of the agreement.

jabotinsky
February 25, 2008, 02:05 PM
I hear you, David. My experience though is that you may be the most dedicated, loyal, effective employee in the corporation, and if there is an officer over your head that needs to be protected from inquiry, or a higher-up's personal friend that needs a job, or they can find somebody cheaper and younger than you, they will do so not by offering to throw a farewell party, but by sending two security guards to your desk unannounced to escort you and your cardboard box of belongings out of the building. The historic covenant between workers and companies has been broken, we are all freelance in effect, and we owe corporations we work for nothing but an honest day's work. I've worked in corporations most of my adult life, and they can write in some litigation/risk management rule about the ability to inspect my car w/o my permission, but I'm not gonna take it seriously. The fact is they're only going in your car if you've already done something wrong. And if they want my urine, or they want DNA samples, or they're not happy because I don't like golf, or won't stop relaying consumer complaints up the chain, I'll move on. These days, if you're a troubled teen and get caught with a nickel bag of weed you can't get scholarships or student aid for life; if you're Halliburton and steal billions from our soldiers and taxes, you get a small fine and don't even lose the government contract. Unfortunately for me, in this economy I haven't been able to make enough for my kids not doing corporate work, but I dream of the day I'm back out of it. Corporate America is a morass of the ignorant and greedy, their rules mean nothing, a man's gotta look up at the stars and into his heart to know what's right.

PS I don't get to keep mine in the car anyway, I cross the border into Jersey and those troopers are not to be messed with, I would be posting in from Rahway State on the prison library computer during my off hours as Bubba's maid, I'm too pretty to do hard time!

Boris Bush
February 25, 2008, 02:32 PM
DA

Thats all well in little letters on that screen infront of you. Death is final. I never got fired and never had any problems after I refused their strong hand tactics. There are alot of EO issues also and if you know your rights and know the law, even if you signed that paper it is not legaly binding.

I was protected by law for retaliation for refusal to be forcefuly searched. I pushed the issue and they were told they would have to call the police and have me arrested for stealing (to get a search warrant), if they were wrong (and they were) then they were open to huge lawsuits that would have been a guaranteed butt load of money for me. Infact a manager was transfered against his will for messin' with me afterwards.

If you know the laws, they are powerfull tools that can and will protect your civil rights, and no company wants to be known as a civil rights violator.

I quit that job along time ago and now I travel the world and meet interesting people. Way more fun....

Dwight55
February 25, 2008, 04:21 PM
I will be retiring April 1st after 30 yr 3 mo at the same place, and it has been a fairly good company to work for.

Several years ago, a nut job blonde (who I heard personally say she was tired of shooting paper, . . . she wanted to know what it was like to shoot a person) brought her personal .357 into the plant to show to her supervisor.

The supervisor happened to be the son of one of the higher ups, . . . so when the stuff hit the fan over bringing a firearm onto the premises, . . . the new rule hit the boards "No guns at all on company property, at any time, period".

A year or so after that, . . . lo and behold, . . . the company is sponsoring a trap shooting league team. Go figure!!!! Several folks on any given day had their shotty and ammo in the trunk just waiting for the last whistle.

Now, . . . you can have it so long as it is unloaded, . . . in your locked personal vehicle.

Said all that to say: "Check the latest info from the company, . . . maybe something has changed, . . . for your betterment".

May God bless,
Dwight

David Armstrong
February 25, 2008, 04:37 PM
The historic covenant between workers and companies has been broken, we are all freelance in effect, and we owe corporations we work for nothing but an honest day's work.
No disagreement. I happen to think the "honest day's work" includes being honest.

Thats all well in little letters on that screen infront of you.
We disagree, Boris. My honor and ethics are far more than little letters, and my word means something important to me. When I agree to take a job I take the job. When I can't follow the rules of the job, I go somewhere else. Sometimes honor goes beyond law.

Inspector3711
February 25, 2008, 08:41 PM
I'm not all that worried as I get off at the same time as about 20 other people. I'm getting older but I'm still 6'02" 220 and most people would think twice. If they are armed I'll let them have my wallet. I'm more concerned about the 20 minutes in a 30mph zone that it takes to get out of the neighborhood.

Then there is the fact that when I took a job there was no such rule and that the rule is flowed down from Europe where freedom is perhaps less free. I did sign an acknowledgement that I was informed and understood the rule. I signed that during a peaceful period that lasted for several years. Also during that time there wasn't any terrorist crap going on. In recent memory there were three convenience stores shut down for wiring money to Mr. Laden and Co.. There is a small section of neighborhood that's now referred to by some as "little Somalia" and often you get dirty looks from these folks. Really torques me off that they move here and act that way. I had some in the Walmart near work eyeballing me and whispering one day and I had had enough. I explained to them that I may be the only US citizen in the store, but I was there the day the store opened. I yelled "This is MY G-D Walmart!". They all scampered off. I'm not racist by any means, but I was brought up to respect others and I expect the same (especially since I was here paying taxes first).

In any case, I will still honor the rule I'm just making the statement that I disagree with it. On days when I carry or am on the way to the range after work I'll park in the street which unfortunately opens my car up to the thieves. About 6 years ago we were heavily staffed and some had to park out there. Six cars got broken into one day. Another time someone took a friends 300ZX dashboard (yes, that's right they broke in and took the screws out) from inside the parking lot but those occasions in the lot have been rare. Numerous car thefts have occurred too. I used to be on the now defunct suggestion committee and proposed cameras or fake cameras in the lot. The idea was shot down by upper management. They park in a different lot that the front office looks out on.

Haha I just remembered back in the late eighties when crack was hitting hard the company hired a well known security firm to man the lot. A woman was mugged on the loading dock. The guy ran past the security guard (big beefy dude, made me look small) who let him pass despite our yelling and his obvious size advantage. A group of us jogged over and asked him why he let the guy go.... He told us that they didn't pay him enough to risk getting hurt. They wouldn't let him carry a weapon so he decided on his first day that he would not be aggresive in any situation that could cause him harm.

There was no rule about us having weapons in our cars back then, but they hired unarmed security in a neghborhood bristling with AK's and Uzi's. We had a dozen chips in new paint in that side of the building back then from gunfire. Every week or two someone would find a spent slug and bring it in. Ahhh the good old days.

JBB
February 26, 2008, 06:08 PM
My company has a no gun rule, also, but when I finally get my CCW license (should be any day now) I intend to carry to and from work. I believe that if the need ever arose for me to use my firearm in self defense, the repercussions from my employer would be secondary to my own well being. All that being said, and the likelihood of defending myself with lethal force being pretty remote, I feel that as long as I am discreet and quiet about my habits none will be the wiser and I will have the comfort of knowing that I have the means for self defense.

Inspector3711
February 27, 2008, 12:51 AM
I see your point JBB. Some would beleive your choice is unethical. We are all entitled to our point of view. I think it's your choice and you have accepted the risk. I also think it is wrong (unethical) for a corporation to tell me what I can have in my own vehicle. I think it's a sign that corporations may have a little too much power in this country.

For me, after 23 years with the same company and no college degree, I think too much is at stake. With my luck.... October: Diagnosed with TY2 Diabetes 20 years too soon.. November: Night before Thanksgiving diagnosed with Diverticulitis no turkey in the hospital for Thanksgiving just jello and water, 20 years too soon (Dad has diabetes, Mom has Diverticulitis, both can be hereditary) January: Lost control for 1-2 seconds on a sudden patch of ice and struck a light pole. Totaled my pickup truck (1st new car I ever bought and it was paid off), now I drive a Neon! I think I'll be cautious about making sure I still have a job.

Boris Bush
February 28, 2008, 05:20 PM
David Armstrong

In post 20 you said the company agrees to pay X amount and only pays Y amount. Well in todays world OT is a NO NO! I can not tell you how many time I saw a manager go into the computer and turn 47 hours into 40.00 so they wouldn't lose a bonus for keeping labor cost down. Even more surprising was how many did NOTHING about it when they got their money stolen from them. That is why I kept a paper record of my time and confronted them every week they did it to me.

Sometimes honor goes beyond law

I couldn't have said it better myself!!! I have to honor my wife and my kids, If I use lethal force to save my life while breaking rule that is inane, then so be it. At the worst I lose a job, not my LIFE. I can live without a job, and so can my family, and the news would have a good time with that story. I cann't support my family if I am dead, and that no matter what the opinion of anyone person or any law, is the important fact at hand....

allenomics
February 28, 2008, 09:34 PM
I run a business and don't allow gun carry on person or gun storage on property. The liability is too great.

ghalleen
February 28, 2008, 10:14 PM
we have a .45 hole through one of the doors and regularly find slugs in the parking lot!

Not to be argumentative, but...

How do you know it is a .45 hole through one of the doors, and not a .44, .41, .40, or even a .410 slug hole?

Do you really find slugs in the parking lot? Or do you mean you find empty cartridges (or casings)? Slugs would be the actual bullets laying on the ground (rather than in a wall or car or body). I've been in nasty areas and never seen slugs laying on the ground.

Now to your question. I agree with most other people here, in that if the gun is concealed inside your car, and you don't tell your coworkers about it, no one will know. You are not breaking a law (at least in my state) by disobeying your employer, but typically employers are able to fire if you violate a company policy. If you got fired over it, and had a good lawyer, there's a decent chance in a wrongful termination case, depending on whether you could get the inside of your car to be classified as private property. This is much the same as companies who say you cannot smoke on their property, but you can still do it inside your car.

IANAL, so feel free to ignore me!

Inspector3711
February 28, 2008, 11:44 PM
Hehe... I've grown up around firearms.. I'm from a small timber industry town in Oregon where I could shoot pretty freely.
When I say a slug in the parking lot I'm speaking of copper jacketed pieces of lead, some of which matched the 9mm profile. When I say .45 caliber hole in the door I'm talking about a .458" diameter slug that was pried out of a window casing at the other end of the room. And yes, we measured it (Hence the name Inspector3711, I inspect and measure aircraft parts. I work for the company on one hand and for the FAA on the other). We've had three gun battles in the parking lot during work in the last ten years. One of them happened when a Vietnam vet was working in an out building. He split his chin on the concrete he hit the deck so hard. I witness another one as two guys shot at each other from behind cars in the lot while an employee in the lot was sneaking a smoke during work time. He stood there in shock. Didn't think of being in danger until they both ran off whenthey heard the cops. they each shot two or three rounds and didn't hit each other or a car! A reminder that an automatic pistol with open sites ain't real accurate at 150 feet.
A man was found stabbed to death in the front parking lot one morning. Our maintenance guy came in early one day and found that four guys had broken into the shop. One pulled a knife so he drove them where they wanted to go (from Seattle to Tacoma). They were arrested down the street from where he dropped them thanks to a cell call to 911.
The slugs are usually found on Monday mornings after a weekend at the OK Corral. As I said, the concrete on the side of the building has some pockmarks/chips. We also have people sweep up syringes and condoms from the lot monthly. Oh, as you can imagine we frequently have numerous piles of glass in the lot. The majority have labels that contain the words "Old" and "English".
I've been to Buena Park, Compton, and Oakland on the west coast. I traveled through The Bronx and Harlem every day for 10 days on a business trip and spent some time on the lower east side and I've been to South Boston. I know what a bad neighborhood is.
The neighborhood I work in is in Seattle believe it or not. Things have been changing for the better in recent years, but now with a new gang uprising.......

computerguysd
February 28, 2008, 11:55 PM
allenomics - "I run a business and don't allow gun carry on person or gun storage on property. The liability is too great."

I'm curious as to what your liability would be if you had licensed carry employees shot dead because they followed your policy and a gunman shot them to death or otherwise injured them on your property.

I think there is a valid liability question raised that when a company disarms otherwise lawfully abiding citizens (particularly those that are licensed by the state to carry firearms) it then assumes the responsibility for their safety. If the company policy can be shown to be either directly, or indirectly, responsible for their being unarmed and unable to defend themselves, then it's reasonable to assume a judge or jury can find the company liable for any deaths or injuries that occur because of those policies.

I know I'd certainly be be inclined to find them guilty. When a company creates a policy that disarms legally (authorized) armed citizens from protecting themselves, I don't see how it could sucessfully argue that it didn't, in effect, assume the liability for their protection and safety.

Inspector3711
February 29, 2008, 12:38 AM
Computerguysd... I hear ya loud and clear. I'm sure my company is worried about liability (crazy employee with gun) as well. They haven't thought it through though. The brief period (as you can read above) that we had security 10 years ago or more, they were unarmed as well. What would have happened if a neighborhood riot or firefight found it's way into the facility? This is not a new problem. It's been a tough place since I started there in the mid eighties. Not even a alarm system until the mid nineties. We use canned boat horns if there is a fire to this day:eek:

ghalleen
February 29, 2008, 03:01 AM
I can understand why an employer would have this policy (not that I agree with it).

I think many employers are scared that someday, some employee will go nuts, pull a gun and shoot someone else. They fear that the courts will rule that they were negligent in allowing handguns at work, and bankrupt them with a huge judgement. Now, in my opinion, this is ridiculous, because a policy is not going to prevent a crazy guy from bringing a gun, just like a law saying that no one can own a gun in NYC prevents criminals from carrying them.

Another reason, though, is a different liability. This is where a customer is offended when he/she sees a handgun on an employee and is likely to take their business elsewhere. This is a very legitimate concern, and not one I can argue with. For example, the company I work for routinely takes orders from customers in the millions of dollars. We don't want ANYONE to be offended by anything that might disrupt an order.

Inspector3711
February 29, 2008, 05:02 PM
ghallen,

My point is that in this neighborhood there is a much greater chance of violence ocuuring because of an outsider rather than an employee. We are protecing ourselves from employees but not the criminals. I would agree more if this were a safer area.

David Armstrong
February 29, 2008, 11:42 PM
In post 20 you said the company agrees to pay X amount and only pays Y amount.
Actually what I said is, "One can only wonder how you would feel if the company were to have the same philosophy. "Yeah, I know we agreed to pay you $25/hr with full benefits, but we decided the agreement isn't to our liking, so we are giving you $8/hr for this last week. Oh, BTW, we also decided not to give you any benefits." I'd imagine you'd be fairly upset (and rightly so) that the company didn't live up to its side of the agreement."
I can live without a job,....
OK, then, don't take the job and then behave dishonestly and/or dishonorably about it. That is my only point. It is unethical and dishonest to agree to follow rules in order to get money and then knowingly and willingly violate those rules you have agreed to follow.

David Armstrong
February 29, 2008, 11:47 PM
I'm curious as to what your liability would be if you had licensed carry employees shot dead because they followed your policy and a gunman shot them to death or otherwise injured them on your property.
There would be none. There is/was a pretty good thread on this in the Legal forum, where the variousl doctrines were gone over at length. Might try a search and see what comes up.

Boris Bush
March 1, 2008, 01:17 AM
I would willingly violate any "rule"that willingly violates my RIGHT to pursue LIFE liberty and happiness.

Why someone would follow an inane rule that isn't legaly binding is beyond me.

Sometimes we need to get over the little things and just live life the way we want to. I never fretted violating the rule and so didn't alot of other employees.

If someone wants to lay down and be told how to live, then less power to them, for those that go about life as they want to, then more power to them.

David Armstrong
March 1, 2008, 06:44 PM
Why someone would follow an inane rule that isn't legaly binding is beyond me.
First, in a number of areas, it is legally binding. Second, one would follow it because they have agreed to do so, and their word means something to them.
Sometimes we need to get over the little things and just live life the way we want to.
Agreed, but that should not include deceiving others and being dishonest. You can live yourlife any way you want. But if you agree to work for me, you agree to follow my rules. You agree to come in at a certain time, work a certain amount, meet certain standards. If you don't want to do that, fine, but then you shouldn't take the paycheck either.
If someone wants to lay down and be told how to live, then less power to them, for those that go about life as they want to, then more power to them.
And thus anarchy rules, and there is no law, no honesty, no honor. Not a way I think most want to live. I've dealt with folks who had no honor and I've dealt with folks whose handshake was as good as a written contract. I know which ones I prefer to be around. Just out of curiosity, what other rules do you think it is OK to cheat on if you want to, and do you think the employer should be able to do the same??

allenomics
March 1, 2008, 08:53 PM
I know I'd certainly be be inclined to find them guilty.

computerguysd. I think a jury would find the killer guilty and my policy reasonable and prudent, considering the type of company I operate.

computerguysd, can you understand all sides of the argument, and still be pro 2A? I can.

Boris Bush
March 1, 2008, 09:49 PM
DA

I always chuckle a little when I read your replies. The two states I have lived in these rules are indeed not legaly binding. As for giving my word, I think I covered it already that I first give my word to my wife and family to be there for them and provide for them, I sure as hell aint going to let them down. I never decieved anyone, they knew I did it as well as several others. Guess what, they couldn't do anything about it either. Your last paragraph is just down right funny.

I am not inclined to go to the local stop and rob and take what I want cuz thats how I want to live. I live within the law, always have and always will. I will however refuse to follow a rule that has no legal presidence. You could say I gave my word to my wife and kids, and plan on honoring my word 'till death. I do believe the vow went something like that.

Inspector3711
March 2, 2008, 12:30 AM
I think there is definite merit in what you write. After all, are we working to live or living to work? I quit living to work when I realized that the people at the top, the "winners" certainly don't live to work (at least not if they're really good). That was long ago. Did I marry my company or my wife? In the end who matters most?
Why is it that I owe my company so much when I have given so much? Their mentality always seems to be that I owe them for the living they give me. In reality I pay them above and beyond with my work ethic, my skill and experience, and my dedication. Certainly you can argue that they gave me the experience, but so many had the same chance and failed or quit. I did something with it. I don't owe anyone. I help make what they have a success and in fact I do it on my own and they know they can trust me to because I always have. After all of this they try to tell me what to do in my own vehicle. I should put their name on the title and they can make half the payment.
But still... Is it worth the risk???

Boris Bush
March 2, 2008, 12:59 AM
Inspector3711

I also asked myself that question, and the answer was no it is not worth the risk. That is why I kept it in the car. Now if you ment worth the risk of breaking a stupid rule, I never once hesitated in doing what is right for myself and my family.

ghalleen
March 2, 2008, 02:41 AM
My point is that in this neighborhood there is a much greater chance of violence ocuuring because of an outsider rather than an employee. We are protecing ourselves from employees but not the criminals. I would agree more if this were a safer area.

And I'm not arguing that point. Simply saying what some employers think.

Nnobby45
March 2, 2008, 09:54 PM
David's loyalty is admirable, but it was Jabotinsky who hit the nail on the head with re: to the nature of corporations and the way they treat employees in the name of company interests.

I can be "loyal" to my company by giving them a days work for a days pay. I can be loyal to my boss because he/she's fair and treats me with respect. When corporate disloyalty conflicts with my bosses loyalty I tend to side with my boss.

Loyalty is something the company earns by treating employees with respect. Not by forcing them into policies to their detriment for the benefit of the corporate interests--specifically liability.

I was "loyal" and "honorable" enough not to carry on the job in violation of company policy, but being disarmed and unable to defend myself after work as I engaged in my personal persuits was out of the question. So was parking off company property. Therefore, my weapon stayed in my vehicle until I could arm my person before I left the yard.

David Armstrong
March 4, 2008, 07:39 PM
The two states I have lived in these rules are indeed not legaly binding.
And in other states they are.
As for giving my word, I think I covered it already that I first give my word to my wife and family to be there for them and provide for them, I sure as hell aint going to let them down.
Nobody has said that you should.
I will however refuse to follow a rule that has no legal presidence.
Thta's fine. Again, nobody has said that you should. However, legal or not, if you agree to follow an employers rules in order to be employed, and you then choose not to follow the rule, that is dishonest and unethical. That is my only point.
...and plan on honoring my word 'till death...
One's word is either good all the time or it isn't good any of the time. Sorry, but you have shown us where you stand.

Boris Bush
March 4, 2008, 07:55 PM
DA

I stand on the side of the law. I didn't carry at work because the law said I couldn't, but it didn't stop me from legaly keeping it in the car. Alot of us did it, and they knew it.

Ya see my word was good. I told them I did it and they knew it. Some of the managers got poopy about it, but were legaly hand tied.

acetum
March 4, 2008, 09:26 PM
I've seen those "No firearms or knives on the premises" signs. I find them disturbing. I'm sure the "crazy" abide by them too.

But what's to happen when the extreme does happen? Will they make sure my kids and wife are taken care of? Will they make sure my mom gets the big flag.

When that "crazy gunman" comes in and starts shooting up the place, the last thing on my mind will be my job or location. The first thing on my mind will be my backdrop and 3 dots lined up with mass in center.

Some people might say "yea but its so extreme, it'll never happen."

OKC, 911, Texas Mall, Virginia School Shootings, every other 7-11 etc. etc.

In my short life I've seen two barrels of a gun pointed at me, and that's two too many.

I've carried for 13 years, and the only ones that know about it are the one's that need to know.

What happens when a gunman shoots up a business and kills people? Does the business get sued for not making the place safe? Doesn't their insurance company payout anyways?

Inspector3711
March 4, 2008, 09:26 PM
Boris,

I could legally get away with that too I'm sure. But if they or the police had a legal reason to get in my car (if I say I have a pistol they don't have a legal right, it would have to be something else that allowed access) I would definitely be terminated. This is a very large 300 year old european corporation. My experience is that when they set policy they stick with it. Our receiving personnel can't even use a box knife anymore, termination is immediate if caught. They use cutters with automatic retracting blades.
Nothing would happen if they knew about a firearm until the day the police needed to pull a slug from my car for evidence in a neighborhood shooting, or if my car was broken into. Or maybe a natural disaster or fire.
The moment that occured and they could physically prove that it was there I would be canned.
It may well be worth the risk depending on who you ask. Rule#1 according to HR: don't give the company any info they haven't asked for and tell nobody of your intent to conceal a weapon in your vehicle, not even your friends.

Boris Bush
March 4, 2008, 10:43 PM
Inspector3711

PM me and let me know where you work so I for sure will never do business with them. I also know where you are coming from, but as I see it, it would be trivial if I did lose my job. Once you leave the parkinglot you are weapons free, If for some reason you did use it on company property and got fired, the news would have a hay day with that story and the 7.5% of WA residents (thats almost one in ten!!!) that carries would not want anything to do with them, and you would get a good lawyer from all the publicity and win a wrongful termination lawsuit for the simple fact they violated your civil rights.

As it stands I plan on not doing business with this company because I live not too far from you. So please let me know, my money will go elsewhere.......

David Armstrong
March 5, 2008, 10:24 AM
I stand on the side of the law.
So do I. I also stand on the side of ethical behavior and honesty in dealing with others.

Boris Bush
March 5, 2008, 11:15 AM
http://media3.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20080305/080238.jpg (http://www.dropshots.com/)

DA

Words like ethical are buzz words. If I use a .223 rem to deer hunt for 20 years and take a deer every year and none never take more than 3 steps, is this ethical? Some states it is not even legal. But if it were legal and I did not agree with it, that simple fact would not make it unethical.

YOU may be more concerned with following a rule that could care less about your life or well being. I take the more simple approach, I care more about my life and the well being of my family. I follow the law and thats that.

David Armstrong
March 5, 2008, 02:00 PM
Words like ethical are buzz words.
Yes, honor, ethical, honesty, all just words. But as for buzz words? Guess that depends on the person. I was raised that a man's word was his bond, ethical behavior is to be strived for, and so on.
I follow the law and thats that.
So your word means nothing unless there is the force of law behind it? Thank you for letting us know that. If I ever have to do business with you that will certainly be an important factor to keep in mind.
But if it were legal and I did not agree with it, that simple fact would not make it unethical.
But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing a situation where you do agree to do something, then intentionally do not live up to your agreement just because you don't want to. That is unethical.

Inspector3711
March 5, 2008, 02:41 PM
Please remember this was not the policy until about a year ago. Few people here agreed to it. It was handed down and we signed a document stating that we read it. Nobody physically made a pledge that they would abide by it.

Boris Bush
March 5, 2008, 03:10 PM
DA

I never agreed to follow their "rule", they knew it, some big dogs objected, but could do nothing. I gave them my word I would follow the law, and I did just that.

Sounds pretty ethical to me.

David Armstrong
March 5, 2008, 03:59 PM
Nobody physically made a pledge that they would abide by it.

No pledge needed. If you are taking the money, you've agreed to follow the rules. If you won't follow the rules you shouldn't take the money.

I never agreed to follow their "rule", they knew it, some big dogs objected, but could do nothing.
See above. You're taking the paycheck, sounds pretty unethical to me.

Boris Bush
March 5, 2008, 08:25 PM
DA

I am getting at it that you are trying to play devils advocate, as long as the law is followed it doesn't matter how much money I earn the company I work for and how little a percentage of the profit they give me. I was legaly able to keep it in the car and I did.

I will however admit to breaking one very important rule at my old job when I was a civilian. I met my wife at work. She was a lower level employee, while I was higher up the chain. I flat out violated the rule on dating lower level employees. I did not even care.

I married her and she quit that job. Now I have a family. Now I have the job I always wanted.

As long as I keep it legal. My priorities are on safety. If I can legaly carry I will. The rule at work has NOTHING to do with what I do when I am on my own time and my own time is when I carried. Do you not get it? Now if I carried while at work in the warehouse, then we have some legal problems as well as safety issues. I never did that so all was good.

To keep on saying I am unethical is borderline character assassination. Work time is work time, my time is my time. No laws were broken so I do not see why you see fit to criminalize my actions??

GWbiker
March 6, 2008, 01:24 AM
I was a supervisor at a state prison in Pennsylvania. Our state issued "Code of Ethics" manual which everyone had to sign for upon receipt stated, among other things, that personal weapons were not allowed on state property (parking lot).

A few years before I retired, one of my correction officers who lived in a very sleazy section of Philadelphia had his loaded personal gun confiscated by our security department. The CO with the gun had hitched a ride with another officer who was found with an illegal narcotic substance on his person while trying to enter the institution. We had a drug sniffing dog. A car was searched for more drugs and the gun was found. The officer with the drugs was later fired!

I was part of an investigation panel into charges against the officer who owned the gun. He attended the meeting with a union rep and produced police reports revealing that he had been robbed twice at knife point while getting out of his car at home. He worked the 2-10pm work shift. The gun was legally owned and the officer produced to us a valid Philadelphia County CCW permit.

Our security department insisted on a reprimand be imposed on him for being found to have a personal weapon on state property. We concurred on the verbal reprimand, at which time the union filed a grievance and the verbal was later reduced to a "formal counsel", which amounted to minor paperwork, which was soon shredded by persons unknown. ;)

At that time, if every staff members personal vehicle, on any work shift, was searched for guns, probably 1/2 of those vehicles would be found to contain a loaded weapon. But under silly state civil service guidelines, correction officers who were threatened each day by convicted felons and/or neighborhood thugs were not permitted to have any personal weapons in their vehicles at work.

David Armstrong
March 7, 2008, 10:31 AM
I am getting at it that you are trying to play devils advocate,
Not at all. This is something I believe in quite strongly.
I flat out violated the rule on dating lower level employees.
So we have a history of unethical behavior. One can assume that you also would think it OK to claim sick-leave when not ill and so on.
I did not even care.
I realize that, and that is where we part. I do care that the rules are observed.
As long as I keep it legal.
Ethics and honesty go far beyond the law.
The rule at work has NOTHING to do with what I do when I am on my own time and my own time is when I carried. Do you not get it
I get it just fine. Rules don't matter unless there is also a law on the subject. No problem, if that is your view. But you'll excuse me if I insist on a written contract and money up front should I ever have to deal with you.
To keep on saying I am unethical is borderline character assassination.
You are the one who keeps saying that the rules and honesty don't matter.
No laws were broken so I do not see why you see fit to criminalize my actions??
I have not criminalized anything. What is legal and what is ethical may not be the same, as we discussed earlier.

Boris Bush
March 7, 2008, 11:38 AM
DA

Your problem is that you see your view of ethical as being the only possible way anyone could be ethical. I have a moral obligation to myself to be happy and productive to society. I work, pay taxes, violate no ones civil rights, and tell no one how to live their life as long as the law is followed. I have a wife and kids I love keeping happy as well as safe. I obviously do not care what you know, think, preach, or try to turn me into with your words. I will forever ignore a rule that has no legal bounds that restricts my right to life liberty and happieness. Just aint gonna happen.

FWIW, I have seen what happens when a group of people try to force their ethics on people that want nothing but freedom to live life as they see fit. I have talked to people that watched their husbands head cut off infront of their children in their own house because someone thought they were immoral in the way they lived (lookup moral and ethical, they are linked). I also got to go visit the people that did these things late at night. If I am willing to fight for the freedom of people I do not even know and do things to the badguys most people wont even do one time in their life time to one badguy here in the good ole USA. Then I sure as hell aint going to be a sheeple and lay down my right to protect myself and my family.

It is my moral obligation to uphold the rights earned by every USA citizen here, especialy mine.

BTW. I am not the only one here that admits to breakin the rule of DA. Go do some reading and give it to a few other people here as you have done to me. If you have a problem with me thats fine. Keep your garbage attacks on individuals to PMs or something, and post productive information, like maybe point out a law I may have broken and why someone could get introuble by following my advice. Remember YOU are protected by the 4th amendment, nothing will change that, thats a law, not a rule. Keep that in mind DA.........

Boris Bush
March 7, 2008, 12:00 PM
If you didnt get that then let me put it in your own words. You in my view useing your guide lines are unethical. You as a leagaly armed citizen have a moral obligation to protect those that can not protect themselves. You left your pistol at home cuz mr. manager says you need to play nice and leave it home. On your way home you see 3 thugs beating down old granny. You know you cannt take all 3 of them so you drive up a little, call the guys that take pictures, take reports, and cleanup (AKA the police). An armed individual has an advantage to eliminate the threat of three to a more safe level for everyone (that happened to a co-worker that was not armed and that is what he did, if it were me I would have helped). Now if you did take your pistol to work, and kept in the car according to the law and used it, your job cann't do anything about your helping. If you followed the rule you just violated your moral obligation to use your legal weapon to de-escilate the threat. In my opinion your following the rule would have been unethical.

You can throw all the words at me you want, I have been shot at, blownup, beatup and kept on fighting, this keyboard infront of me aint no challenge at all.

David Armstrong
March 10, 2008, 09:21 AM
Your problem is that you see your view of ethical as being the only possible way anyone could be ethical.
Perhaps. I think your word is your bond. I think a handshake is a good as a written contract. I think when you agree to take a man's money you agree to follow his rules for getting the money. I think that just because there is a law that says you can do something that does not make it automaticaly ethical to do that thing. Apparently you disagree.
Then I sure as hell aint going to be a sheeple and lay down my right to protect myself and my family.
Nobody has said you should, so I wonder why you keep trying to inject that into the conversation.
Go do some reading and give it to a few other people here as you have done to me.
I believe that if you will check you will find that I have done just that. Nothing special about you.
Keep your garbage attacks on individuals to PMs or something, and post productive information,....
Sad that you fail to see that ethics and honesty is productive. I think that started this entire process, discussing "honest" gun owners.
like maybe point out a law I may have broken and why someone could get introuble by following my advice.
For the umpteenth time, there is a difference between what is legal and what is ethical. That's OK. Like I said, if I ever need to do business with you I'll know to demand a written contract and money up front.

Boris Bush
March 10, 2008, 09:44 AM
DA

You can not judge how right or wrong someone is by your ethics standard.

Person X believes guns ar immoral and unethical to own. I think abortion is wrong. Cars with more than 100 horsepower are unnecessary, some might conclude they are immoral irresponsible and unethical to drive becaues they waste gas.

Don't let your opinion fog what is right and wrong. I am the kind of person that does my own thing and like to be left alone. I know the laws and never break them. In return I don't give a **** what anyone else does as long as they keep it legal. You take yourself too seriously, there are others here I disagree on some things, but we can still meet at a gunshow coming here soon and I know for a fact despite a difference in opinion on some stuff we will get along just fine. You on the otherhand would sweep me under the carpet to self preserve what you think is right.

You won't get my money so dont fret it.


See ya in a few days, I leave for some good training for a few days in a bit.

pax
March 10, 2008, 09:51 AM
And this one is done.

pax