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johnle
February 8, 2008, 02:12 AM
I'd like to keep either one of these next to my guns in case I have to use them. If someone invaded my home, I'd much rather have them give up then be shot (my girlfriend doesn't want anyone dying on her carpet).

Lets say they do give up, what's more reliable, safe and easier to use? Handcuffs or Zip ties?

I'd imagine zip ties would be easier since they just zip on?

The Tourist
February 8, 2008, 02:21 AM
I don't have a lot of experience, but by nature I am a traditionalist.

In the past when I have been arrested, I've always respected the police officer that used genuine SW cuffs.

Triple plated, devoid of cosmetic marks and aggravating burrs that chafe the wrist. You know in a moment that this is a LEO that has chosen the best in perpetrator restraining devices.

Zip ties? Pshaw, that's for mall rent-a-cops.

Besides, even with a cheap knife I can cut through those dealies and be back off to a life of crime and the ladies in no time.

hoytinak
February 8, 2008, 02:26 AM
We use zip ties on our pucs and I have seen people break them before...not very often but it can be done. If you do go the zip tie route make sure you use extra heavy duty ones.

johnle
February 8, 2008, 02:30 AM
Well if he breaks loose of either one of these...I'm going to invade his personal space .45 ACP Speer 230gr Gold Dots.

CelticMP
February 8, 2008, 02:36 AM
If you already have them at gun point and they have surrendered and are obeying your commands. Why would you want to lose your position of advantage by approaching and cuffing? Let the bad guy stay on the floor with a gun pointed at him. You lose tactical advantage by approaching, someone else covering ,ie. girlfriend with gun while you approach to cover, she is not going to shoot into the ball of human arms and legs if he decides he doesnt want to be cuffed and resists. Thats my opinion from 9yrs as a LEO.

To answer your question, I have seen guys break cuffs and I have seen them break flexi-cuffs. Honestly it is up to you. Whatever you get have someone show you how to employ them properly, both can cause undue injury and the civil lawsuits (depending on where you live) can get ugly.

johnle
February 8, 2008, 02:42 AM
it's one of those just in case things, chances are if he's obeying at gun point I'd keep him that way and not do anything else. Depends on the situation, but yeah...I am trained to fight up close though since my girlfriends dad is luckily a wing chun instructor who graciously taught me over the years.

chris in va
February 8, 2008, 02:46 AM
Neither. Bad idea to get anywhere near a BG especially by yourself. Hold at gunpoint until the cops arrive.

CelticMP
February 8, 2008, 02:49 AM
well for just in case i like the hefty HWC handirons myself. never had a pair completely busted, hada guy bend them up pretty good. ask IZinterrogator how well they work he took a set last time he went playing in the sandbox. I am not a fan of hinged cuffs, the linked ones (have a bicycle chain style hinge) i like HWC's and SW handirons. For flexi-cuffs you can actually purchase the kevlar re-enforced ones at most cop shops or catalogs.

But again I do stress, it just is not a good idea to get that close to the BG. I was trained to fight up close too, but i cannot tell you how many times I have been in sitting in the back of a second ambulance getting bandaged because a surrendering suspect didnt like the feel of the cuffs and decided to resist at that point. BTW the suspect was usually in the first ambulance hehe

johnle
February 8, 2008, 03:02 AM
yeah for the most part i know when to pick my battles, im not one to pick fights either. If I have my gun and he's on the floor, i wouldnt provoke any more trouble, but situational practice is always a good thing to keep on my mind.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 04:08 AM
Be very careful. If you actually put cuffs on someone you cross into risky legal territory.

Charlie218
February 8, 2008, 06:01 AM
Throw the cuff to the BG and have him put one on his wrist and the other on his ankle........while you keep him covered....he does it lying horizontally

BillCA
February 8, 2008, 06:23 AM
In most cases, if you have an intruder or criminal at gunpoint, they should be face down on the floor, feet crossed at the ankles with their arms outstretched, palms up. If they move from that position without your commands you can increase their weight 230-grains at a time.

Wait for police to arrive and take control. They practice this kind of thing in teams so you shouldn't be doing it solo or with your untrained spouse nervously pointing a gun in your direction. Do not throw a pair of handcuffs to the subject as you just provided him something to throw in your face.

Zip ties - I've seen three types. Plain "electrical" wire ties used as zip cuffs (easy to cut). Reinforced zip ties with aramid (kevlar) fibers inside (not enough to resist breakage). And the Nylon ones with a piece of thin spring steel running the length of the tie. These last cannot be cut with a knife, can't be abraded thru. They also have deeper teeth in the locking system that prevents forcing the cuffs open.

ShootemDown
February 8, 2008, 06:38 AM
Id say handcuffs... but why stop there ? I'd have a complete set of irons for our little visitor :D

and STOCK too

shiky
February 8, 2008, 06:50 AM
i vote for just keeping the weapon on him until Law Enforcement arrives. let them deal with the scumbag, and if he moves, all they have to do is bag him up

Syntax360
February 8, 2008, 09:29 AM
Whichever your girlfriend prefers, and forget you have them if one of these home invasion scenarios ever play out - it's a dangerous and stupid idea.

David Armstrong
February 8, 2008, 09:56 AM
Why in the world would you want to keep this guy around? IMO, the goal is to get the BG to go away, not keep him around. Cuffing him up puts you in more danger, standing around with the gun pointed at him puts you in more danger. Tell him to go away.

38SnubFan
February 8, 2008, 09:59 AM
I'd sooner keep him covered until other LEOs arrive to back up and secure the scene.

I work as a Bail Enforcement Officer and carry a set of cuffs regularly since my job requires me to work "on call". I've worked in various forms of Public Safety Administration over the past 12 1/2 years where I've carried cuffs for my job, and even with my training I'd still be apprehensive about cuffing a home intruder myself without other LEO present. There's too many factors involved and too many things that could go horribly wrong.

My girlfriend prefers the cuffs, but that's for more recreational purposes. :D

Either way, if you're going to choose between one or the other, I'd prefer good quality steel cuffs from a local cop shop, or from www.galls.com or www.atlantictactical.com

Whatever you decide, please stay safe.

-38SnubFan

tlm225
February 8, 2008, 10:35 AM
If you feel you must restraint a suspect, use handcuffs.

With that said, IMO it's a bad idea for you to try this. Keep your distance with the suspect at gunpoint. If he runs aways, so what. That's better than him taking you down and disarming you while you're attempting to cuff him.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 8, 2008, 11:06 AM
So you throw the cuffs to the BG and tell him to put them on. So he say: NO.

BTW, there are articles and films out there of officers getting clobbered with the cuffs. Why give the dude an impact weapon?

Use them recreationally and let the cops cuff people for business.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 11:42 AM
Why in the world would you want to keep this guy around? IMO, the goal is to get the BG to go away, not keep him around. Cuffing him up puts you in more danger, standing around with the gun pointed at him puts you in more danger. Tell him to go away.
True, and like I said before...prevent an intruder from fleeing and you will be really surprised when you are the one on trial if he gets a lawyer. I personally saw a case where a pawn shop owner handcuffed an attempted theif to a display case once and then found himself facing 1st degree felony kidnapping charges along with several other counts for some things you would never think possible. I did not get to see how it turned out but I am sure at the very least it cost him a ton of money in legal fees.

if a bad guy tries to flee, let them flee. You are not a cop and unless you are very certain about your ability to make a citizens arrest (which usually does not allow restraint or holding someone at gunpoint) you are risking a lot by putting cuffs on anyone other than another willing adult.

nemoaz
February 8, 2008, 11:58 AM
and unless you are very certain about your ability to make a citizens arrest (which usually does not allow restraint or holding someone at gunpoint)Ummm, that's wrong and just plain dumb. If you are legally authorized to make a citizen's arrest (which usually means you have either witnessed a felony or witnessed a "breach of the peace") you are authorized to arrest them. Restraining them, either with commands at gunpoint or with cuffs, is the "arrest" part of citizen's arrest.

That being said, it takes a bit of training to properly use handcuffs and no untrained person should consider it. If you've been trained as a LEO or military type, you'd already know the answers to these questions. In other words, if you have to ask, forget the handcuffs or flexicuffs.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 12:02 PM
Ummm, that's wrong and just plain dumb. If you are legally authorized to make a citizen's arrest (which usually means you have either witnessed a felony or witnessed a "breach of the peace") you are authorized to arrest them. Restraining them, either with commands at gunpoint or with cuffs, is the "arrest" part of citizen's arrest.
You might want to go talk to a lawyer about that. In a whole lot of places it is just not the case.

In fact you can usually go to your local police department and find a guide to how to make a citizen's arrest. They usually include...

1. Notify police upon observing a crime.

2. Provide police with information to assist in identifying the violator.

3. Sign the complaint form. (After this, most cases are concluded without your further involvement.)

4. Appear in court when requested by the District Attorney's Office.

and they will usually include warnings such as...

"When you sign or make a complaint against someone for an infraction of the law, you are in affect "arresting" them...I cannot recommend that you try and "arrest" someone by restraining them physically, as you may be subject to liability if you do that. Work within the system by filing your charge with a police department or States Attorney with jurisdiction."

This is not a "Rambo" situation and treating it as such can cost you a great deal.

nemoaz
February 8, 2008, 12:07 PM
I am a lawyer. Thanks.

The process you describe is not making a citizen's arrest, it's filing a citizen's complaint. Some states allow private citizens to file the complaint, some require the LEO or prosecutor to conduct an independent investigation. It's totally independent of the concept of citizens arrest.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 12:12 PM
I am a lawyer. Thanks.

That's not making a citizen's arrest, that's filing a citizen's complaint.
__________________
If you truely are a lawyer then you know better.

Since you are saying you are a lawyer, and I assume you are a criminal prosecutor since you understand the citizen's arrest codes so well, why don't you recite to me and yourself a list of possible charges a person could face for restraining another citizen or holding them at gunpoint...just for the heck of it. Oh, and cite some precedent.

I think if you do so honestly you will realize the pitfalls of a citizen's arrest.

Here is a hint...look up charges of kidnapping, false imprisonment, coercion, assualt, use of undo force, improper use of force or restraint, etc related to citizens arrests.

KMO
February 8, 2008, 03:48 PM
Neither. Bad idea to get anywhere near a BG especially by yourself. Hold at gunpoint until the cops arrive.

This is the best answer you received in the preceding posts. One more thing...a shoestring rapidly rubbed back & forth against a nylon zip tie will burn right through it in a short time. Most BG's are aware of this. Keep him muzzled until the cops get there...

ShootemDown
February 8, 2008, 04:30 PM
I'd sooner keep him covered until other LEOs arrive to back up and secure the scene.

All of you keep sayint that as if the cops are going to come anytime soon.. better you get a cold drink..

also. What if you got the buglar at gunpoint, command him to sit and whatever, then u wait for 5 minutes...
then


The perp says, U know what ? I am LEAVING. I am unarmed and you cannot shoot me I am running away from you. You cannot shoot me because I am running away,

he then gets up, and slowly walks towards the door, opens it and leaves...

So whats the point of the holding at gunpoint ?

"a fleeing felon is at no risk to you so you cant shoot"

So do tell...

Creature
February 8, 2008, 04:47 PM
I have been waiting for someone to say they would command the BG place his wallet on the floor and order him to leave or be shot....or even to toss the BG a pen and paper and have him write down his name and address! That the police would know just who to go look for.

Me, I would just as soon as have the BG vacate my domicile post haste before he stinks up the place instead of cuffing him. Any LEO will tell you that handcuffing a suspect is a very dangerous process.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 04:50 PM
Me, I would just as soon as have the BG vacate my domicile post haste before he stinks up the place instead of cuffing him. Any LEO will tell you that handcuffing a suspect is a very dangerous process.
The reason for that is you have this weird problem of not being an LEO wanna-be or an internet Rambo. You really need to work on that. :)

spacemanspiff
February 8, 2008, 05:20 PM
Handcuffs can be broken as well. And misuse of them can lead to a lot more headaches. Once you put someone in handcuffs, their safety becomes YOUR responsibility. This does not apply to LE, but to civilians. Means you cannot harm them, and you must prevent them from being harmed while they are cuffed.

Putting cuffs on improperly can cause severe nerve damage to the individual cuffed. You can be sued for it. You can also be charged with 'wrongful arrest'.

On top of all that, handcuffing is NOT easy, especially if the person resists. It can be quite a struggle if you are alone and trying to handcuff someone, hold a gun on them, and they dont want to comply.

Radiki
February 8, 2008, 05:27 PM
+++100 to all the posts about legal ramifications. Basically, if an unarmed bad guy tries to flee and you restrain him in any way, then you are at fault. Even if all the criteria are met you are probably still going to face a large civil suit that could cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend against. If the guy is high or whatever and wants to do nothing but harm to you or somene close then restraint is the only option other than shooting him. But like it has been said. Handcuffing is very dangerous. When I was working for the government, an employee lost it, don't know why, but started flipping desks and threatening other employees. It took two guards, myself and another employee to get the guy in cuffs. I would not want to attempt it in a dark bedroom, by myself, half awake, with anyone else I cared about in the room. My first priority is to protect myself and my loved ones... not to be a hero. The police academy is right up the street if I ever wanted to be that guy.

KMO
February 8, 2008, 06:00 PM
So, while you're holding him for the police, so what if he does decide to get up slowly and leave? If this is what he really does, your problem is over. The goal was never to shoot him, merely to get him to stop doing whatever he was doing in your house. If he becomes a threat while leaving (does something other than leave directly), that will provide justification for further action - problem is over in this case too. So what's the big conflict?

Starscream02
February 8, 2008, 06:42 PM
Why in the world would you want to keep this guy around? IMO, the goal is to get the BG to go away, not keep him around. Cuffing him up puts you in more danger, standing around with the gun pointed at him puts you in more danger. Tell him to go away.

Well I happen to actually care about the BGs next victims, and the fact that they probably are not armed like me. You can do what you want, but I could not live with myself for pushing a killer on someone else because I just care about me.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 06:50 PM
Well I happen to actually care about the BGs next victims, and the fact that they probably are not armed like me. You can do what you want, but I could not live with myself for pushing a killer on someone else because I just care about me.
A. Being a burglar and being a killer are too totally different things.

B. With overcrowded prisons, unless he has a firearm or a large amount of drugs on him he will most likely be right back on the street in the morning.

C. All you have accomplished is adding additional risk to a situation and opened yourself up to personal liability.

If you really care about the next victim go join the police force. It is not like it is hard to get in.

ShootemDown
February 8, 2008, 06:55 PM
BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

ShootemDown
February 8, 2008, 06:59 PM
PLAYBOY !

A. Being a burglar and being a killer are too totally different things.

B. With overcrowded prisons, unless he has a firearm or a large amount of drugs on him he will most likely be right back on the street in the morning.

C. All you have accomplished is adding additional risk to a situation and opened yourself up to personal liability.

If you really care about the next victim go join the police force. It is not like it is hard to get in.

I cant believe I am hearing this from YOU ! what? its not your problem ? System dont work ? personal liability risk ? JOIN THE POLICE :eek: ?

Do you want a better world ? or do you just want to not have to be bothered for your 80 year stay on this earth ?

Time to bring out the ball gag ! Someone is being naughty ! :rolleyes:

Creature
February 8, 2008, 07:01 PM
Shootemdown wrote:
BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

I see. Your saying that anyone, at anytime, when they think or feel even the slightest bit threatened, is now judge, jury, and executioner?

skeeter1
February 8, 2008, 07:01 PM
Neither. Bad idea to get anywhere near a BG especially by yourself. Hold at gunpoint until the cops arrive.

Best advice. With a firearm and cell phone nearby, I have no reason to worry about cuffs or ties. Leave that up to the LEO pros.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 07:02 PM
Do you want a better world ? or do you just want to not have to be bothered for your 80 year stay on this earth ?
Sorry, but I see a big difference between being a responsible citizen being a "Rambo wanna-be" on an internet forum.

nemoaz
February 8, 2008, 07:56 PM
If you truely are a lawyer then you know better.Since you are saying you are a lawyer, and I assume you are a criminal prosecutor since you understand the citizen's arrest codes so well,
Uh oh. Internet knowitall gets his feelings hurt after confusing 4000 posts as the same as higher education. You gave bad advice, and I corrected it. Get over. The list of "charges a person could face for restraining another" is hardly less long than the list of charges a person could face for pulling the gun in the first place. If you are justified, you are justified. If you want to see what the law is in your state, call an attorney in your area. I simply don't have the time to research all 50 states and "cite precedent" for you.

Nevertheless, I will repeat that the untrained person shouldn't try to put cuffs on a bad guy, as it is simply to dangerous for the untrained.

Playboypenguin
February 8, 2008, 08:01 PM
Uh oh. Internet knowitall gets his feelings hurt after confusing 4000 posts as the same as higher education. You gave bad advice, and I corrected it. Get over.
You gave baseless and untrue advice and now evade the topic. Back it up without being snide as an attempt to cover it up.

PS: I will pit my education against yours any day if you like. PM me and we can compare degrees.

kgpcr
February 8, 2008, 08:17 PM
you would have to be a complete idiot to try and cuff him!!!i mean a total dumb arse!!! Why get to within fighting distance of him??? DUMB!!! Keep back and wait for the cops. If you tell them you are holding a guy at gunpoint it wont take them long in most cases. if he gets up and walks out well thats a hell of a lot better than getting close to him and getting in a fight with him! BE SMART!!!

spacemanspiff
February 8, 2008, 08:17 PM
the OP:
I'd like to keep either one of these next to my guns in case I have to use them. If someone invaded my home, I'd much rather have them give up then be shot (my girlfriend doesn't want anyone dying on her carpet).
Because the bad guy is ALWAYS going to comply with your commands, right? Even after you have covered him with your weapon, your girl is calling 911, and the bad guy is just going to piddle himself (or herself) and wait for you to take them into custody, right?
So what I foresee happening is you keep on giving commands to 'Lay Down!' 'Stop!' 'I will shoot you! Move to the left so you dont bleed all over the sofa!'
Seriously, are you mentally prepared (as well as one can be that is) to use deadly force? If the person poses enough of a threat that requires you to be armed, why are you hesitating? If you are NOT mentally prepared, you shouldn't even be armed, in my opinion.

ShootemDown
February 8, 2008, 10:26 PM
of course there is a difference between responsible citizen and rambo wannabe.

I think everyone should be a responsible citizen, doing their civic duty.

simply letting the home invader in your home leave your home he just invaded is NOT doing your civic duty.

you must do what you Have to do. whatever it may be. if you have to shoot the invader then do it. I rather any of you shoot the invader and deal with the aftermath, rather than to feel like you "cannot" shoot the invader and then ending up on the morge slab yourself.

ActivShootr
February 8, 2008, 10:32 PM
Neither. I really dont want to get that close to the scum.

From an LE standpoint I think cuffs would be faster to deploy and could be used as a weapon themselves if needed. Maybe zip ties for transport in a wagon.

Starscream02
February 8, 2008, 10:37 PM
Shootemdown wrote:
BRAVO starcream02, thats right. For too long people think safety and criminality is someone else's problem. or its the responsibility of the police. but WE AS A Society, is responsible. I am certain there are more people and there are scum, and if we all deal with the scum properly the FIRST time, there wont be any crime. It is our duty as citizens to be sure the criminals DO NOT get away with crime.

I see. Your saying that anyone, at anytime, when they think or feel even the slightest bit threatened, is now judge, jury, and executioner?

You see?? Care to point out where? Because I fail to see any of the things you claim shootemdown is saying in his actual post.

MikeinLA
February 8, 2008, 10:59 PM
Well, I keep a set of pink fluffy handcuffs in the bedside table, but that's probably a whole 'nother post. :rolleyes:

Mike

Creature
February 9, 2008, 07:52 AM
If you want to see what the law is in your state, call an attorney in your area. I simply don't have the time to research all 50 states and "cite precedent" for you.

Yet you have the time to sit at your computer posting in this forum?

Creature
February 9, 2008, 07:56 AM
doublepost

Mannlicher
February 9, 2008, 08:48 AM
"cuff 'em Danno" is for the Television show.

stephen426
February 9, 2008, 08:52 AM
This is where the tazer or stun gun comes in handy. Snap, crackle, pop... and its lights out for him. Usually no long term harm done. The you can easily slap the cuffs on and wait for the police. No resisting, no need to shoot him, and no fleeing.

I understand that this is a gun forum, but so far no one has mentioned continuum of force. What if you pepper spray him with one of those that have UV dye for tracking purposes. Heck, he won't be able to see well enough to flee. Be sure to use the kind that fires a stream instead of a fog since you don't want to pepper spray yourselves.

If you do kep cuffs, I would toss them to the bad guy and have him cuff himself. I certainly would not count on the wifey holding him at gun point, and I certainly would not trust her enough to not pop one in me by accident.

skydiver3346
February 9, 2008, 08:59 AM
I don't get all these replys to the guy who asked if he should hold a suspect (that is actually in his home when apprehended by home owner?)?
Seems like a lot of people said, "whats wrong with just letting him get up and leave if he wants to?"
I'll tell you why, CAUSE HE MIGHT COME BACK IF HE THINKS YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING".........Or, what about this senario, "you let him go and he does something very bad", (like injures or kills another home owner when he is caught in the act). The BG needs to go to jail, period. At least he knows not to come back to your particular home in the future. He knows you are armed and will have him arrested (or worse)!
Just letting them leave with no punishment or having to answer for their unlawful entry (and putting you and your family at risk) is not acceptable, period! I know what I will do and think about it often. I hope to be ready when and if that ever happens to my family.

Playboypenguin
February 9, 2008, 10:35 AM
CAUSE HE MIGHT COME BACK IF HE THINKS YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING"
Yeah, he is going to say to himself..."I broke into that house and was met with a pistol in my face and had to run for my life. I think I will stop in there every chance I get instead of moving on to an easier target."

...and letting him flee is not the same as letting him get away. I love the idea of telling him to throw his wallet on the ground. If he is dunb enough to do it you will have his ID. You can always claim he dropped it accidently...you cannot claim he feel into handcuffs.

Plus, as many others have said, if you have me at gunpoint and then try to cuff me I am going to fight back and so is a criminal. You just turned a "I almost lost my belongings" situation into a "I might lose my life" one really quickly.

38SnubFan
February 9, 2008, 11:31 AM
Once you put someone in handcuffs, their safety becomes YOUR responsibility. This does not apply to LE, but to civilians. Means you cannot harm them, and you must prevent them from being harmed while they are cuffed.



WRONG!!!!! Even when I'm on duty, the moment I handcuff a defendant (BG), he is MY RESPONSIBILITY, and I face the same criminal/civil liabilities as any other LEO OR CIVILIAN would, should something bad happen to him/her while in my custody.

But none of the possible legal ramifications are my reasoning behind NOT cuffing him, even though I do own handcuffs and are properly trained in their use. My reason is that I'm not going to subject myself to further risk and/or subject my family to further risk my placing myself in a situation where safety is compromised by getting too close to the subject.

Even with my better half being ex-military, and having the mindset and skills to cover me, her possible nervousness and "adrenaline rush" while holding a gun in her hands to cover me while I'm restraining the subject (not to mention she would now have ME and SUBJECT within the line of fire) is again....not a risk I'm willing to chance for either her, myself, or the kids.

Again, this is just my opinion on the matter. Whether you actually do cuff a subject is probably going to be more dependent on the situation. It's very easy to sit back and play Monday-Morning-Quarterback here and judge on a situation most of us have never been in and probably never will be.

All that said: As far as whether to use flex-cuffs or standard steel cuffs - I'd prefer standard chain-style cuffs. A prepped flex-cuff consists of two loops which need to be slipped over the BG's wrists, where as a standard handcuff can be applied directly against the wrist while I have a grip on his fingers and hands and lessen his chances of swinging an arm/fist at me.

Shoot well, stay safe, and stay healthy,
38SnubFan

Creature
February 9, 2008, 01:17 PM
I'll tell you why, CAUSE HE MIGHT COME BACK IF HE THINKS YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING"

After I point a loaded gun at you because I caught you breaking into my home, do you really think that you would come back?...because you're mad at me?

Besides...if you came back, what makes you think I wont be madder than you, and much more motivated to shot you in order to defend my family?

Playboypenguin
February 9, 2008, 01:43 PM
WRONG!!!!! Even when I'm on duty, the moment I handcuff a defendant (BG), he is MY RESPONSIBILITY, and I face the same criminal/civil liabilities as any other LEO OR CIVILIAN would, should something bad happen to him/her while in my custody.
C'mon now, you and I both know LEO's benefit from protections against liability stemming from the standard application of their duties that civilians do not.

nemoaz
February 9, 2008, 04:32 PM
You gave baseless and untrue advice and now evade the topic. Back it up without being snide as an attempt to cover it up.Wow! Proving you have no idea what a citizen's arrest is seems to have really struck a cord. I guess it makes the rest of your legal assertions suspect to your fellow internet commando experts.

You clearly have neither law nor law enforcement training... yet you seem somehow uninhibitated from dispensing your own advice which has no basis in either legal theories or law enforcement tactical techniques.

C'mon now, you and I both know LEO's benefit from protections against liability stemming from the standard application of their duties that civilians do not.Since you are a total azshat, I won't respond to this additional stupid assertion.

My reason is that I'm not going to subject myself to further risk and/or subject my family to further risk my placing myself in a situation where safety is compromised by getting too close to the subject.Obviously, someone who KNOWS what he's talking about.

The BG needs to go to jail, period. At least he knows not to come back to your particular home in the future. He knows you are armed and will have him arrested (or worse)!
Just letting them leave with no punishment or having to answer for their unlawful entry (and putting you and your family at risk) is not acceptable, period! I know what I will do and think about it often. I hope to be ready when and if that ever happens to my family.LEO's are taught that transitioning from gunpoint to applying handcuffs is one of the most dangerous aspects of the job. You usually wait for a cover agent to keep a weapon trained at the suspect, then try to apply the cuffs to a proned suspect as quickly as possible and while minimizing your own exposure. The handcuffing agent has his weapon holstered. The handcuffing agent uses a few techniques to limit the ability of the suspect to counterattack. It's just not something that can be done properly without a decent amount of training... and even with training, it is simply a tactic that cannot be employed without significant risk.

hogdogs
February 9, 2008, 04:54 PM
Like a kid under the tree christmas morn... I read the first and second in this thread only... i will read the rest after this reply...
Here in Fla Cuffs are okay (plastic or metal) so long as said BG gets charged with a "VIOLENT FELONY" if said BG gets a misdemeanor or less than "VIOLENT" felony you have commited a felony yerself! It is called many different things depending on the DA... Here you are better off to "STOP THE THREAT" and call 911 to report a big mess on your floor! Also I will say I will never be within 6 feet of a badguy unless I am doing my best "UNLOAD THE MOSSBERG" impression!
I have taught/trained my family to help with giving orders... I will initiate with "BIT@& GET ON YER KNEES CLASP HANDS BEHIND YER HEAD CROSS YER FEET AND FACE PLANT ON THE FLOOR!!!! DO NOT UNCLASP YER HANDS..." My wife will say MF'er HE AIN'T PLAYING" My kids will say along the lines of "DADDY? YOU GONNA KILL THAT POS?" One of previous stated MOF (member of family) will initiate the 911 call... One move I am not totally entertained by will result in "peace thru superior fire power" If alone I will not use the phone... I will let the neighbors report the BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM to the operator for me! NEVER approach a violent felon and never I MEAN EVER take the POA of them to use the phone! Cuffs are for the cops... I know alot of you say "chest thumpin' redneck gorilla hogdogs is..." but some addresses really are better left alone...
Brent

mamboreta
February 9, 2008, 05:49 PM
I will stick to the "stun-gun//pepper-spray" option if he gets slightly agressive, with mi P226 in my other hand.

But honestly, if he wants to run away, I´m probably gonna let him get the hell away from me and my loved ones. I´m sure a -"Next time I will shoot you in the act!"- final statement will make him (and his friends) think twice about not only me, but also about my neigbourhood and the armed people who may live there.

For the rest, there are LEO´s.

hogdogs
February 9, 2008, 06:05 PM
Lemme find out e was released by a nearby homeowner... YOU WILL PAY FOR THE STANLEY STEEMER CREW! I assure you that my deeds will prevent yer 17 dollar per yard Berber carpet won't be soiled by the punk that entered my home!
"Oh just let the poor feller go... as long as my home is safe... fer now... I am safe..." F that with a capital "F" once free from one home they are more trained to do a better HOME INVASION next time! Clean the Gene Pool at every oppurtunity... if you won't than don't pull a weapon! Brandishing is a lower class crime than a school yard bully! If you do not fire when you pull than you are a simple chump! No excuse to pull unless you fire NONE EVER! Fear factor is for worm eating college kids! If you feel the need to draw, you are OBLIGATED to follow thru or melt yer real gun and buy "airsoft" crap! Guns are to be fired Physical strength is for those to scared to hold their grounds with lethal force and idle threats are for chicken chit sissy punks!
Would you blink? I won't!
Brent

Glenn E. Meyer
February 9, 2008, 06:13 PM
OK - that was fun!

If you shoot a fleeing felon in the back - then you are a real man. Not a poultry manure minority gender orientation person. Yep, I'm convinced.

The clock and the lock are ticking as we speak. :D

Yellowfin
February 9, 2008, 06:38 PM
I don't want to get anywhere near the sleazebag either. Not sure exactly what I would do but I can say that I certainly would prefer not to do that. That said, I wonder why nobody has mentioned duct tape yet.

hogdogs
February 9, 2008, 07:37 PM
I have half a dozen pair of cuffs here... we tried them on pigs and hogs... they can and do "strip" out in battle... Hogs are some tuff bum-bishes! I have duct-taped more hogs than cuffed and not a one got loose! Duct tape requires being too close of a proximity to a low life single cell life form than I plan to be! Once again in florida as well as many states yer butt is grass if he only gets charged with a misdemeanor or "less than violent" felony! Once inside MY home he can be shot but not necessarily bound! We got to live by the hand we are dealt and the laws we must adhere to! I will not allow any of my family members within 6 feet of his furthest extremity... Sorry fer the invader but facts is facts and we will not engage him in martial arts or any form of hand to hand! I done said it they get one chance to belly up and count crumbs on the carpet! That is all! If they survive until the cops arrive it is through full compliance on their part and I will not impede upon their opportunity to obey! But OBEY, THEY MUST to every letter of MY demands as it is my home they were detained in!
Brent

Playboypenguin
February 9, 2008, 07:40 PM
You clearly have neither law nor law enforcement training... yet you seem somehow uninhibitated from dispensing your own advice which has no basis in either legal theories or law enforcement tactical techniques.
Hmmmm...all that and still no answer to my original question.

hogdogs
February 9, 2008, 08:02 PM
Well, I read some... I am neither judge nor jury... I am the guy that signs the walking papers so they can face the JUDGE! I am being a REALLY nice guy giving the BG a chance to count crumbs since I have no legal ramifications as to frontal COM shot or Back of COM! Once in my home i have every right to feel threatened... Florida law says if brazen enough to enter an occupied dwelling they are likely to to be a threat to life limb and liberty... or some such definition!
KMA he has one chance and one only to grab floor... any argument, discussion or begging is too dern late on his part... I am pretty much too nice to offer that much! But I am a softy! Man I wish I was cold and ruthless as Rooster Cogburn! Here on the net i got time to say... "I said do as yer told and you live" in the real life scheme of things i limit conversation to "ON YER KNEES HANDS CLASPED (dunno what that is) Mix up yer fingers and belly flop... Cross yer ankles and raise yer feet... That is all i don't care if it takes 33 days and 40 nights for LEO if you move I get to take a break! Am I a cold hearted SOB NOPE! I just am doing my best to detain a VIOLENT FELONY SUSPECT without making a mess on the carpet.... He made the choice to be a bum ass crook and I made the choice to make my home OFF LIMITS!
Hang me if you must!
Brent

parrothead2581
February 9, 2008, 08:41 PM
Well, in North Carolina, you can detain but not arrest, unless requested or required by a law enforcement officer. See here: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_15A/GS_15A-404.html

And for the fun of it, in California (See section 637):
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=833-851.90

I believe every state except NC permits citizen's arrest. You can of course be sued or worse, if it is false, so you better have the probable cause to make the arrest. You don't have the same legal protections as the police and there are plenty of liabilities so be prepared. Know the difference between detain and arrest.

If you really care about the next victim go join the police force. It is not like it is hard to get in.

I agree with the first half, but the second half strikes a nerve. I could have done a number of things with my Master's Degree, but chose to try out for one of the local Police Departments. It was far from easy to get into. I was one of 25 to get into my class, with around 450 applicants. I'm sure you meant it well, but it didn't come across that way, to me.

Playboypenguin
February 9, 2008, 08:54 PM
I agree with the first half, but the second half strikes a nerve. I could have done a number of things with my Master's Degree, but chose to try out for one of the local Police Departments. It was far from easy to get into.
Sorry if I offended but as an ex-LEO I have been appalled at how low the bar has been lowered for entrance to police service. Most deptartments are begging for people with only two year degrees (not even law related) to join.

I might have stuck around and used my master's degree in law enforcement but the pay was just not good enough to go out and put my life on the line.

Yellowfin
February 9, 2008, 09:56 PM
Somehow I have a hard time establishing in my mind exactly how someone that you'd need to hold a gun on and would ponder putting a bullet through seconds before all the sudden becomes safe enough to let walk. I can understand letting a rattlesnake slither away because I came to its world, but something coming to me just doesn't sit well. And yes, someone attacking me becomes an "it" as far as I'm concerned.

Jedi-Brian
February 9, 2008, 10:11 PM
Just to clarify the legal aspect of cuffing someone who has broken into your home, at least for California residents, there are five laws that go together to allow a citizen's arrest:


CPC 834. An arrest is taking a person into custody, in a case and in the manner authorized by law. An arrest may be made by a peace officer or by a private person.

CPC 835. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person, or by submission to the custody of an officer. The person arrested may be subjected to such restraint as is reasonable for his arrest and detention.

CPC 837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

CPC 841. The person making the arrest must inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest, and the authority to make it, except when the person making the arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after its commission, or after an escape.
The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being arrested.

CPC 847. (a) A private person who has arrested another for the
commission of a public offense must, without unnecessary delay, take the person arrested before a magistrate, or deliver him or her to a peace officer.
(b) There shall be no civil liability on the part of, and no cause of action shall arise against, any peace officer or federal criminal investigator or law enforcement officer described in subdivision (a) or (d) of Section 830.8, acting within the scope of his or her authority, for false arrest or false imprisonment arising out of any arrest under any of the following circumstances:
(1) The arrest was lawful, or the peace officer, at the time of the arrest, had reasonable cause to believe the arrest was lawful.
(2) The arrest was made pursuant to a charge made, upon reasonable cause, of the commission of a felony by the person to be arrested.
(3) The arrest was made pursuant to the requirements of Section 142, 837, 838, or 839.


Just to ensure that everyone understands that this is, in fact, a Felony we are talking about here:


CPC 459. Every person who enters any house, room, apartment, tenement, shop, warehouse, store, mill, barn, stable, outhouse or other building, tent, vessel, as defined in Section 21 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, floating home, as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 18075.55 of the Health and Safety Code, railroad car, locked or sealed cargo container, whether or not mounted on a vehicle, trailer coach, as defined in Section 635 of the Vehicle Code, any house car, as defined in Section 362 of the Vehicle Code, inhabited camper, as defined in Section 243 of the Vehicle Code, vehicle as defined by the Vehicle Code, when the doors are locked, aircraft as defined by Section 21012 of the Public Utilities Code, or mine or any underground portion thereof, with intent to commit grand or petit larceny or any felony is guilty of burglary. As used in this chapter, "inhabited" means currently being used for dwelling purposes, whether occupied or not. A house, trailer, vessel designed for habitation, or portion of a building is currently being used for dwelling purposes if, at the time of the burglary, it was not occupied solely because a natural or other disaster caused the occupants to leave the premises.

CPC 460. (a) Every burglary of an inhabited dwelling house, vessel, as defined in the Harbors and Navigation Code, which is inhabited and designed for habitation, floating home, as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 18075.55 of the Health and Safety Code, or trailer coach, as defined by the Vehicle Code, or the inhabited portion of any other building, is burglary of the first degree.

CPC 461. Burglary is punishable as follows:
1. Burglary in the first degree: by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six years.
2. Burglary in the second degree: by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.


BUT, I agree with most of the posters that attempting to cuff someone is an idiotic thing to do. Detain them if you can, but don't put yourself into more risk by approaching them. In the academy we were taught that you don't approach a felony suspect until you have a cover officer. If the professionals won't do it alone... you certainly shouldn't!

RedneckFur
February 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
The way i feel about it is, If you wanna act like a cop, go be a cop. trying to arrest somone in your home will put you in more legal hot water than its worth.

I agree with the eariler posters that said order the BG to drop his wallet and then let him go.

Playboypenguin
February 9, 2008, 10:59 PM
Since we actually had a warm sunny day here I just got back from riding with my business partner. We stopped to eat at the end and I asked him about the handcuffing thing since he is (as I have mentioned on here before) a lawyer.

He said in both Oregon and Washington a person performing a "citizens arrest" can cuff someone legally. He said if the person is later not charged with a crime you could be charged with false arrest or felony kidnapping. He said that is not a big concern if they are in your house though. He said the biggest concern would be the criminal suing you for injury. All he would have to do would be to say you injured him either during the process of cuffing him or by improperly applying the restraints. Since you are not an LEO you would not be protected by the same laws they are and would be wide open to civil prosecution.

He also added it would not take a great lawyer to convince a jury that an untrained civilian had no place putting restraints on another individual and making it seem very possible that the injuries could be real.

Sounds like too much risk to me even if it wasn't so dangerous to be trying it in the first place.

JohnKSa
February 9, 2008, 11:39 PM
I don't know what to say about this thread, but it's kept me busy for awhile.

No, come to think of it, I do know what to say. It's over. Some of you will be receiving emails & PMs.