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DaveInPA
February 5, 2008, 11:17 AM
I didn't sleep at all last night. . I'll tell ya why and you can tell me if I handled the situation correctly.

I was laying in bed last night around 1:00AM, when I heard my dog start barking downstairs. He never barks unless I'm teasing him with a piece of steak or a strip of bacon, so this raised my suspiscions immediately. I grabbed my .45 and headed down the steps. As I came down the steps, my alarm system sounded. I made my way quickly toward the front door just in time to see two men grab my pool cue rack and run out the front door, I was about 50 feet from them at this point. When I got to the door and brouht my gun up, they were running down my driveway, and one of them had the red dot of my laser sight on his back, but I didn't pull the trigger. I let them get away. I figured shooting a man in the back would land me in a jail cell.

I know you're thinking "pool cues? big deal". But it is a big deal. I'm an avid pool player and that collection was easily worth over $7500. And it's gone. Did I do the correct thing legally letting them get away? I had two opportunities to shoot. Once when they were headed for the door about 50' away from me, and once while they were running down the driveway, their backs to me. I yelled for them to stop the first time, but they ran. They never drew a weapon on me. But would I have been legally justified in Pennsylvania shooting them to protect my property?

Thanks for any input guys. I wasn't sure I wanted to share this story on an internet forum, but I need input from someone to hopefully put my mind at ease to some extent.

Dave

thallub
February 5, 2008, 11:20 AM
You did the right thing.

dwatts47
February 5, 2008, 11:21 AM
I would not have pulled the trigger either.

They are dirtbags for stealing your stuff... but can a price be put on a mans life?

Now if the choice is him or me, then there is no choice... but that is not the case it seems...

I support your actions and though it is crap that someone took $7500 worth of your life/money... but It would have cost you so much more than that in the long run had you fired.


Good job on thinking it thru.

The Lovemaster
February 5, 2008, 11:24 AM
I know you're not here, but you did the right thing under Arizona law as well. Can't shoot to defend property, only life.

Congrats on a good decision under stress.

ETA: Congrats to me for making "Senior Member", I'm so happy, I'm not sure what I'll do for the rest of the day!

Fremmer
February 5, 2008, 11:30 AM
You did the right thing.

My guess is that those guys found out about your expensive cue sticks from someone close to you who has been in your house before. So start thinking about that. How did they know?

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 11:32 AM
I would have given chase in my truck and if they didn't stop they would have at least dropped my stuff!
Someone knew their value and let it out to the wrong folks... they would have ignored the pool cues after better loot at least until they were on the way out.
Brent

DaveInPA
February 5, 2008, 11:32 AM
My guess is that those guys found out about your expensive cue sticks from someone close to you who has been in your house before. So start thinking about that. How did they know?

I think it's more likely they grabbed the closest thing to the door when the alarm went off, but I'll certainly think about that. Thank you.

novaDAK
February 5, 2008, 11:33 AM
They are dirtbags for stealing your stuff... but can a price be put on a mans life? dirtbags' lives are worthless. However, yours isn't. Shooting them would have surely landed you in jail.

I'd still be ****** in loosing the 7500 though, I don't know how to deal with that :mad:

bustersmaster
February 5, 2008, 11:40 AM
Hmmmm, custom pool cues stolen, were you scheduled for any tournaments?
Might want to check a list of freinds AND enemies.

ldv444
February 5, 2008, 12:07 PM
Killing another man, justified or not, changes you....and not for the better. Not necessarily for worse....just different. It's not something you want to experience if you don't have to........and sure the hell not for 7500.00 dollars worth of cues that should be covered on your home insurance.

You did the right thing.......

honkylips
February 5, 2008, 12:16 PM
I say you absolutely did the right thing. It's always easy to say that you wouldn't lose any sleep if scumbags like that were shot and killed, but I suspect my conscious would be haunted if I killed a man over some cue sticks (albeit a nice one).

Having said that, I [I]think[I] that shooting would be justified in some states. Here in Colorado, the way I read the law, it says that if somebody is in your house illegally, and you believe they are going to committ another crime (other than the breaking + entering), you can use lethal force. If I'm interpreting that statute correctly, then I think it'd be a justified shooting, but not a shooting that I would ever want to justify to myself.

Hawg
February 5, 2008, 12:27 PM
I'd have blown his backbone out his belly.

Creature
February 5, 2008, 12:31 PM
In the end, that is what insurnace is for. As much as you may disagree now, $7,500 worth of gear is not worth the finacial and emotional strain of a shooting like the one you were forced to decide against.

Dwight55
February 5, 2008, 12:39 PM
+1 Creature

May God bless,
Dwight

Musketeer
February 5, 2008, 12:40 PM
First, you did right. $7,500 is less than the lawyer's fees you would have faced for shooting them.

Someone knew their value and let it out to the wrong folks... they would have ignored the pool cues after better loot at least until they were on the way out.

Do you have kids? Do they have friends? I would bet one of their more unsavory friends heard them bragging about the expensive cues, or was even once at your house when a child bragged about them. They seem an odd thing to target and try to run off with when pursued by a man with a gun.

Tennessee Gentleman
February 5, 2008, 01:03 PM
when he's running away.

DaveInPA
February 5, 2008, 01:06 PM
Do you have kids? Do they have friends? I would bet one of their more unsavory friends heard them bragging about the expensive cues, or was even once at your house when a child bragged about them. They seem an odd thing to target and try to run off with when pursued by a man with a gun

No kids. Just my fiance and I in the house.

38SnubFan
February 5, 2008, 01:10 PM
Dave, you absolutely did the right thing. You WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED in using lethal force in this case.

Are your cues insured on your homeowner's policy? If not and you can eventually replace the investment, I'd talk with your agent about a policy to cover such a loss. You may still be able to file a claim though considering your home was invaded.

Thankfully, they came in, got what they wanted, and left without anybody getting hurt. I know that sounds very condescending, but the important thing is nobody got hurt.

I read something last year or the year before that they're trying to pass a bill in the State Legislature that will allow legally armed citizens to use deadly force to protect their personal property. However, that bill has been sitting untouched and as long as our wonderful (idiot) governor is in office, I doubt it will see itself passed into law anytime soon. Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if it hasn't already fallen out altogether.

I'm just glad that you and your family are safe. I can honestly say an intruder in my home that can make it in and back out without harming anyone or without me getting to him first (highly unlikely - I don't have a big home) can have whatever they want, as long as my family is left unharmed.

Take care and stay safe. Hopefully your luck changes for the better.

-Matt

rem870hunter
February 5, 2008, 01:12 PM
i would've held my fire too. i'm in nj so i can't shoot unless they are in the home causing harm. but i would've definetly shouted to them that they are lowlife cowardly dirtbags and should've never been born.

jakeswensonmt
February 5, 2008, 01:17 PM
My guess is that those guys found out about your expensive cue sticks from someone close to you who has been in your house before. So start thinking about that. How did they know?
My thoughts exactly. Also not easy items to fence, you might notify the local pawn shops to be on the lookout.

ZeSpectre
February 5, 2008, 01:24 PM
Dave,
You are going to spend the next few days and night alternating between being mad as hell and jumping at every little noise in your house. It's normal, I just wanted you to be aware.

As to "did you do things right". Well I'm sitting here in a comfortable chair on a nice afternoon day with all the time in the world to review and critique your actions...it's unimaginably harder to make that sort of decision when you are standing in the situation, so no matter what you should give yourself a break. In the end you and yours were unharmed and aren't facing any legal actions. That's an ideal outcome. Don't get too wound up about any criticisms I may voice here, I'm trying to help not trying to beat you up in any way.

I grabbed my .45 and headed down the steps.
I personally don't have an issue with you investigating but did you have a way to retreat back out if you got downstairs and there were 5+ badguys down there?

I made my way quickly toward the front door just in time to see two men grab my pool cue rack and run out the front door, I was about 50 feet from them at this point.

Now I have no idea about the layout of your house but it seems to me that you were already outnumbered. You saw two, there might have been more. What if you had advanced and a third guy was suddenly behind you (even if he was just trying to get out the door)?

The point I'm making is that this was the time to secure your position and call for backup.

When I got to the door and brought my gun up, they were running down my driveway, and one of them had the red dot of my laser sight on his back, but I didn't pull the trigger. I let them get away. I figured shooting a man in the back would land me in a jail cell.

This was a wise choice as they were already outside and fleeing and you'd have had a hell of a time making a self defense case at this point.

So in summary it seems like you took a couple of fairly serious risks. I'm not saying it was wrong to do so and maybe the actions fit the situation but I wanted to point out a couple of spots where it could have gone very badly for you so that you'll be aware next time.

Be safe
Ze

Perldog007
February 5, 2008, 01:36 PM
IN Delaware we still have theoretical discretionary issue. The most common reason is "protect life and property" - personally, I am getting a valid out of state non-discretionary permit and would not ever shoot to protect property,

You did just fine IMO. Stay safe and glad to hear you and yours are uninjured.

Sorry about those cues, never owned a good one myself but can imagine the loss. Hope they get caught.

Dan M.
February 5, 2008, 01:42 PM
Tell me if my timing is off here--

You heard the dog bark. You're on your way downstairs when you hear the alarm. When you get close to the front door, you see the guys running out with your rack of cues. I'm assuming you have a--what, 30 second delay once the alarm is tripped before it goes off? It sounds to me like the guys knew exactly where to go for an easy grab of expensive stuff to make a quick getaway, so they either had inside knowledge, or had somehow cased your layout previously. You choose which one sounds more reasonable.

DaveInPA
February 5, 2008, 01:46 PM
Tell me if my timing is off here--

You heard the dog bark. You're on your way downstairs when you hear the alarm. When you get close to the front door, you see the guys running out with your rack of cues. I'm assuming you have a--what, 30 second delay once the alarm is tripped before it goes off? It sounds to me like the guys knew exactly where to go for an easy grab of expensive stuff to make a quick getaway, so they either had inside knowledge, or had somehow cased your layout previously. You choose which one sounds more reasonable.

The alarm goes off immediately, no delay.

YounGun24
February 5, 2008, 01:49 PM
I would have probably done the same thing if I had been in your shoes. While you may have taken some uneccesary tactical risks in retrospect, you did what your instincts told you to do at 1 in the morning. I believe you did the right thing by excercising discipline and not firing.

Move your valubles further into your castle.:D

f8lranger4x4
February 5, 2008, 01:58 PM
you did fine.

cxg231
February 5, 2008, 02:29 PM
Excellent decision not to shoot.

I recently moved from Montgomery County, and I always thought that Berks County was a pretty nice place (some of the cities excluded). Crime happens everywhere though, unfortunately. :(

Van55
February 5, 2008, 02:45 PM
It's almost unanimous. It should be unanimous. You did absolutely the right thing.

I don't know what the law is in PA, but here in VA, you are not entitled to use deadly force if you are not reasonably in fear for your life or the lives of your family.

NGIB
February 5, 2008, 03:36 PM
While there's always a part of us that desires an eye for an eye, you did good. I just wonder what the outcome would have been if yours was an unarmed and unalarmed household...

parrothead2581
February 5, 2008, 03:48 PM
Not much to add to what everyone else has already stated.

Rest easy knowing you did the right thing. You're safe and you're not in jail. And that's what is truly important.

xrocket
February 5, 2008, 03:52 PM
In Texas you would have been within your rights to protect and secure your property at night with lethal force on your property,even if they were retreating and you shot them in the back.

Morally and with principal, you did the right thing in not killing them on the spot. I too would not have shot them under the circumstances you described.

Your property, although expensive and probably not replaceable, insurance will still reimburse you. Now, if you had caught them inside your home at night, I personally would not have hesitated to pull the trigger as that is a whole different matter altogether.

benny27
February 5, 2008, 04:01 PM
Where did they run to? I would have chased those sob's have way around the world before I'd let them get away with 7,500 dollars worth of my stuff. I would have been very tempted to shoot, but I'm not sure I would have in that situation. They would've had to have had a vehicle some where close by, I don't understand why you didn't chase them and try to get a license number. I may have fired a warning shot, but probably wouldn't shoot a guy in the back. It just doesn't look good in court.

M1911
February 5, 2008, 04:07 PM
You did the right thing. $7500 loss hurts, but call your insurance company. Part of it may be covered.

In most states, you can only use deadly force if you or another innocent is in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. Once they were out the door and running off, you were no longer in any danger, let alone danger of death or grave bodily injury.

If you think $7500 hurts, have a chat with a defense attorney. If you had shot, you probably would have to cough up $10,000 to a defense attorney just to get the wheels rolling. You'd be paying more than $250 per hour after that. And that's just the financial end of things. If you had shot, there is a good chance you would have wound up in jail for a long time.

Your pool cues can be replaced.

Creature
February 5, 2008, 04:17 PM
Why didn't you chase them?

Because that would be just stupid.

ShootemDown
February 5, 2008, 04:30 PM
Pool cues ? what pool cues costs 7500 ?

anyway, I had my pool cue stolen before, it was a muecci, base model.

I saw it happen, it was stolen from the trunk of my car as I was watching from the 6th floor window.

I know how you feel, to be victimized, to be taken advantage of, to lose your posessions.. it really hurts, it does. I know you felt like beating the thief with your bare fists till the sun comes up...

a part of me, as you probably think right now, that it would be worthwhile to shoot the scum who stole your pool cue. that if every gunowner just keep letting these scum live, they just go and break in somewhere else and no benefit was made to society if you let these scums go.. Case in point, Peter Parker allowed a thief to go, and soon this same thief was the one who later killed his uncle Ben. Peter was troubled for a long long time, thinking what if he didnt let him go, his uncle would be alive and yada yada...

Anyway, I know how you feel, the hatred in your heart right now.. even though all the posters say you did the right thing, I know you dont feel like it. I know you feel that shooting the buzzards would have been GREAT !

but give it time, in a few days, you'll feel better, and then you can rationally think to yourself and then you will know that NOT pulling the trigger at the time WAS the right thing to do.

You never know what was happening, or why he needed to steal your pool cues, sometimes, these scum DO have a very good reason to have to do what they do. you might have killed a generally GOOD person that was in a bad happenstance for that one time...

you never know... nope.,

so anyway, figure out HOw he broke in, and up your security. better doors, locks, windows, motion control lights and etc... etc.. etc....

so what pool cues did they take ?

FrontSight
February 5, 2008, 04:38 PM
hhhmmm....the right thing legally, but the wrong thing in my own personal opinion as to how the law should be in regards to thieves like that - imho you should be allowed to shoot low lives like that. having said that, i would never do that with the current law the way it is, as it's not worth going to jail for the rest of my life over. :mad:

45Dave
February 5, 2008, 04:38 PM
You did good !! I know what it feels like to have your place broken into, in my case it was kids getting pain killers my daughter was taking for knee surgery. I guess the biggest red flag I am worried about is you do not seem to know your state's laws about using lethal force when you can and can not.
I do not know a darn thing about PA but here in Mich and some other states property can be replaced (yes I know they were near and dear to ya) but lives can not. If you or family here were in immediate danger then you could have used lethal force however...as you said, they were running away, no weapons you cite that would have made you the aggressor and you would probably have gotten a go to jail card.

You showed excellent restraint. I would check and find out about your states laws though.

benny27
February 5, 2008, 04:53 PM
Creature, please do tell, what in the hell is stupid about it? Watching theives run off with your stuff is stupid. If I watch some m-fer run off with 7,500 worth of my stuff they better hope they are world athletes because I will run all over their ass, or die trying., end of story. I'm not a keyboard commando either, so don't even go there.;)

tharmer
February 5, 2008, 04:53 PM
I own nice cues and they are much more than their monetary replacement value. The one you used to win some tournament...the one you won in a bet...the one you saved so hard to get...the one a pool celebrity personally recommend to you...you don't replace this by buying a new cue...not to mention the possible historical value some cues have. You'd be surprised how much value they can have.

But you did the right thing. I don't think the penalty for robbery is the gas chamber so "spine through their belly" (jeez if that isn't KC I don't know what is) is going to get you nothing but grief, lawsuits, lawyer fees, and depending on the state, jail time.

ssilicon
February 5, 2008, 04:55 PM
You did the right thing from a legal standpoint. You do not live in a place where deadly force is authorized to protect property. But as to those who say you would somehow feel scarred because you killed someone. Well, I don't think they can know that. That's a personal issue. Speaking for me, I would care about as much as stepping on a bug, IF the perp was rotten to the core. Some theft isn't enough to know if someone is rotten to the core or not however.

grymster2007
February 5, 2008, 04:56 PM
what pool cues costs 7500

Custom ones!

I watched a guy doing some of the work on a custom, $3500 cue that my brother had built. As many times as I've tried to prove his folly by beating him with a house cue, I've simply been unlucky so far.:D

As with many things, you can spend whatever you want.

Th0r
February 5, 2008, 04:56 PM
They didnt threaten you. Or harm your family.
What would be the point in shooting them.

parrothead2581
February 5, 2008, 04:56 PM
Benny,

I wouldn't say chasing them is stupid, but I wouldn't call it the best idea ever. It's night, you have no idea whether they are armed or not or whether there are more outside of your home waiting for you. Just not a good idea to risk your life over pool cues.

tacticalmedic
February 5, 2008, 05:09 PM
Too bad your dog isn't a Shutzen trained German Shepherd. They wouldn't have gotten away!:D Nothing like watching a big German Shepherd take a guy down on the run.

grymster2007
February 5, 2008, 05:12 PM
Nothing like watching a big German Shepherd take a guy down on the run.

For some reason that appeals to me too.:D

M1911
February 5, 2008, 06:06 PM
Creature, please do tell, what in the hell is stupid about it? Watching theives run off with your stuff is stupid. If I watch some m-fer run off with 7,500 worth of my stuff they better hope they are world athletes because I will run all over their ass, or die trying., end of story.

I am a keyboard commando. I wasn't a fast runner at 18. At 47, I'm a lot slower and have less endurance. I'm no boxer or martial arts expert either. No, there's no way I would try to run down two perps to get my stuff back. I'd have a hard time fighting one, let alone two. And if they got the better of me, then they'd have my gun as well. They also might be armed.

$7500 would be hard pill to swallow. But my life is worth a lot more than that to me.

So yes, running after them would be stupid IMHO.

benny27
February 5, 2008, 06:17 PM
M1911, I assumed we were talking about being armed as well. If I wasn't armed of course I would not pursue two thieves. In regards to multiple threats thats why I have a Bushmaster M4 with a 30rd mag by my bedside for my home defense weapon. How are they going to get the better of you if you're armed? I would have a hard time watching two thieves steal my things and do nothing about it, but maybe it's just me.

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 06:55 PM
While I enjoy this board immensely I am sorry to say I just tripped on my jaw!
Blah blah blah you did the right thing... As said earlier I woulda hopped in my ol' red 4X4 with a full tube of 20 gauge... I woulda passed them hot footed runners and slid sideways to a stop and hopped out and said "hey F'HEAD DROP THE CHIT OR DIE!"
Whaaaa... some some bich is in dire straits so the F what! When I was 18 I was eating bisquick mixed with water cooked in a skillet over a propane camp stove... no sugar, milk or egg! But I didn't go breaking into homes to sustain life and if I did I would have stolen steaks from the freezer not some dern ol' pool cue! Ever try to boil a pool cue? Screw that! If you think you are stealing the mud off my tires you are sadly mistaken! I worked hard to buy the gas that allowed me to muddy them up and I will hold you at gun point on yer face in the fire ants with your hands behind yer head and legs crossed raised at the knee and if you so much as move you are making an attempt to disobey! As I have said before... 5 gallons of gas is noticed in our budget! I don't have any type of "anti-theft" insurance so I tend to do my best to keep a tight grasp on "MINE"... go buy yer own like I did!
Brent

benny27
February 5, 2008, 07:16 PM
hogdogs, finally someone that see's things the way I do..:), There's only one thing I hate more than someone who harms children and that's a damn thief. Vandalism ****** me off just about as bad. There should be stiffer consequences against thieves, imo. I am by no means perfect but I can honestly say that I've never stolen anything. There's just something about taking something that doesn't belong to you that makes me very angry.

Hawg
February 5, 2008, 07:30 PM
spine through their belly" (jeez if that isn't KC I don't know what is) is going to get you nothing but grief, lawsuits, lawyer fees, and depending on the state, jail time.

I've already had this discussion with local law enforcement after some low lifes broke into a building I had stuff stored in. If they're on my property or even property that I have a legal right to use and they break in or even try to break in or cause any other damage I'm justified in using deadly force. Call me what you will, I don't give a dead rats behind. Somebody wants to take something of mine and I'm around he's goin down for the count. If you think that makes me a cold hearted sumbitch I could've already told you that. I'd have no more feeling about it than killing a mosquito.

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 07:31 PM
Had I not been raised po as all hell and honest I might have a different attitude! My pop would clench up his jaw everytime he "took food out of our mouth to buy a padlock" stating it is not his job to prevent theft... it was everyone else's job to keep their meat hooks off our hard earned stuff! I have a "half brother" that is a POS punk ass criminal glob of unused ballistic gel... To him everything not in the grasp of someone is "abandoned"... your gas grill your kid's bike, your mower or car he don't care... I told him if his shadow every blocked the sunshine on my windows he would be nothing but dog food and I meant/mean it!
By gawd if I want something I am going to take it... after I save up long and hard and purchase it fair and square! $7,500 is not too far off from half of what my family earned in 07. I been super hungry but lost little weight as I could get enuff game with my tightly limited "meat money" ie:shotshells to at least eat. Muscovy ducks taste like crap unless you are real hungry! Sorry to hijack but not everyone can take that punch to the gut without fighting back or doubling over...
Brent

Creature
February 5, 2008, 07:33 PM
Think about it. Is seven stacks all that your life is worth to you?

Tex32cal
February 5, 2008, 07:34 PM
I would have a hard time living with myself if I had shot a dirtbag in the back while he was running away. And, If you had busted one over their heads, you may have holed the front window of one of your neighbor's homes or possibly hit an innocent person. As hard as the loss of your valued pool cues is to deal with, you no doubt made the correct choice.

Michael

benny27
February 5, 2008, 07:46 PM
Creature, I don't care if it's 7,500 dollars or 75 dollars. If someone breaks into my home and takes anything I'm going to do everything in my power to stop them. As stated by some other posts, some people work hard for what they have and will be damned if a couple of thugs are gonna come in and take it.

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 07:48 PM
Seven "large"ain't worth my life! Neither is half a mil. so I won't go stealin' $7,000 worth of pool cues nor a wore out yacht! But is theirs worth it to me? If'n you come here to steal I done said it... don't even try to steal the mud off my tires! It ain't worth yer life! I also said I would side slide my truck to a stop... I would hate shoot a punk in the back... now I am in front! KMA 10-4 drop the goods is as good as it gets.
Had it happened here on my yard i don't know if it would be better to call the law or feed my dogs acting like nuttin' happened! If a guy can look a deer in the eye and drop it dead having never stolen from him it is a "no brainer" to me... Nightmares are what you get when the thief is still at large!
Brent

kennybs plbg
February 5, 2008, 07:48 PM
In the end, that is what insurnace is for.

This line is B/S in my book.
First of all I would have shot, the useless dog.
Second I wouldn't of cared if it was $75 I'm going after them, whatever it takes. Don't know how most of you can look in the mirror at yourself. Call me a rambo or boo whatever, I'd like to think of it as a man with pride.

kenny b

maestro pistolero
February 5, 2008, 08:03 PM
Or an inmate with pride.

You did the right thing. I can't swear that I wouldn't have yelled drop the $h!t or your dead, even maybe cranked off a couple of rounds into the dirt just to see if they would drop the loot. Hey, aren't pool cues weapons? oh never mind.

Congrats on keeping a cool head. Sorry for the loss.

warrior poet
February 5, 2008, 08:13 PM
Self defense law in PA allows for: "A private citizen is justified in using the same amount of force as if he were directed to prevent the crime by a peace officer, except that lethal force may not be used unless the defendant reasonably believes that it is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or another. At the direction of a peace officer, a private citizen need not retreat from making a lawful arrest, and may use any force he believes necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest."

ALSO...

U.S. courts are split with respect to an additional factor in the lawfulness of the use of deadly force in self-defense. A minority of jurisdictions require a victim to retreat to the wall if it is safe to do so, before using deadly force. ‘Retreat to the wall’ is generally construed to mean taking any reasonable and apparent avenue of exit. However, even minority jurisdictions do not require retreat under three circumstances. There is no duty to retreat from one’s own home, if one is being or has been robbed or raped, or if the victim is a police-officer making a lawful arrest. In 1996 the Pennsylvania Superior Court held that "although a person is afforded discretion in determining necessity, level and manner of force to defend one’s self, the right to use force in self defense is a qualified, not an absolute right." Pennsylvania is a retreat jurisdiction.

If I'm reading that right... you did right. Shooting them would have put YOU in jail, since they were no longer a threat to yourself or your family when they ran away.

All of this comes from Peter Hobart. The full article is at: http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/general-4.htm

Please read his disclaimer at the end of his post. As always there's "wiggle" room in the law, and you never know what the judge or jury will do.

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 08:30 PM
We do not have to attempt retreat!invade and you die!
you woulda been better off with my cuban wife chasing down the cookbooks full of family secrets... you woulda been beet death with recognition unlikely... At least i will put a humane kill on you and properly butche you out on dog size portions... I got plenty to feed 3 300 pound thugs in one feeding...
Brent

maestro pistolero
February 5, 2008, 08:42 PM
We do not have to attempt retreat!invade and you die!
you woulda been better off with my cuban wife chasing down the cookbooks full of family secrets... you woulda been beet death with recognition unlikely... At least i will put a humane kill on you and properly butche you out on dog size portions... I got plenty to feed 3 300 pound thugs in one feeding...
Brent


WHAT?

benny27
February 5, 2008, 08:51 PM
LOL

DaveInPA
February 5, 2008, 08:55 PM
Where did they run to? I would have chased those sob's have way around the world before I'd let them get away with 7,500 dollars worth of my stuff. I would have been very tempted to shoot, but I'm not sure I would have in that situation. They would've had to have had a vehicle some where close by, I don't understand why you didn't chase them and try to get a license number. I may have fired a warning shot, but probably wouldn't shoot a guy in the back. It just doesn't look good in court.

They ran down my front driveway. They had a van parked at the end of the driveway. My vehicles are parked in the garage BEHIND my house. Chasing them wouldn't have done much good. I called my homeowner's insurance company today and filed a claim. We'll see what happens. A lot of those cures aren't replaceable, however. Monetarily they are sure, but not physically. I had one-off custom cues, a cue my grandfather gave me that he got from Steve Mizerack, and my very first cue I ever won a tournament with back when I was 13. So the line "that's what insurance is for" doesn't really cover me here.

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 08:55 PM
Well let's weigh my option...My neighbors hear gunfire at all hour of the night. Nothing different about "that" NIGHT. Do i worry about it? Nope... leaves me more options... If these thugs had bystanders I would call the cops if not I doubt I would. Why? No punk azz thief has the rights I feel law abiding citizens have. I have enough raw meat eating dogs to feed for 2 days maybe longer...
Gobs of dogs that prefer raw feed over kibbles.
Not the smallest of theft is left forgotten by me and mine...
Brent

parrothead2581
February 5, 2008, 08:57 PM
Well, this thread went downhill rapidly. Killing folks and chopping them up for dog food?

Wonder how long the mods will let this stay open......

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 09:05 PM
Dunno but do i subject my self to trial or just fergit a bad dream of someone stealing from me? Sorry but some of us have reached leashes end when it comes to these thefts. Had mu bulldogs been free reigning I would likely find half eaten corpses any way...
Brent

benny27
February 5, 2008, 09:05 PM
hogdogs, LOL, If only burglarers would read your posts we would all be safe from thieves..:D

cjw3cma
February 5, 2008, 09:09 PM
Just goes to show you the variety of "mental cases" that visit gun forums !:D!

Wonder what would have happened to the O.P. if he had shot into the air to get "the attention" of the thieves - to possibly get them to drop the stolen goods?

Still an illegal action?

benny27
February 5, 2008, 09:16 PM
I think you should do everything in your power to stop a thief from invading your home. They say never to fire your weapon unless it's to kill, but in this situation it could in fact cause them to drop the stolen objects. In this gentleman's case he should have ran down to the end of the driveway and got a tag number or maybe shoot out the tires if possible. I definatley would have done something, but I'm not sure deadly force would have been justified unfortunatley.

alligator94
February 5, 2008, 09:24 PM
You definetely did the right thing by not shooting. Based on PA laws you would have been charged. Besides legal fees would be way more than the missing pool cues.

hogdogs
February 5, 2008, 09:26 PM
My yard is cluttered with rifle and shot gun hulls from our "redneck" tree service so it is kind of not a target home... There is no way of telling if anyone is home or not... My son and I will shoot it out and in the case of super top secret family recipes the wife will cut yer throat to get to yer tongue to keep them in da family... My cowardly little 16 year old daughter will go to the dog yard droppin snaps screaming HOG GET THE HOG Catch him the hog is gonna get me and that is the most brutal use of power on my place! Kinda like the movie "deliverance" I got a dozen dogs that love to hear a pig squeal...
Brent

grymster2007
February 5, 2008, 09:51 PM
Well... you don't have to agree with hogdogs and he might go to jail some day, but I gotta say you have to admire him as a man of principle!

Don't know about you, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to steal nuthun' from him!... but those Cuban recipes sound pretty temptin':D

Doctor always tells me that my love of food will kill me. He has NO idea!:D

kgpcr
February 5, 2008, 10:37 PM
I would blow his back out his belly??? you are either a chest beater want to be or not very bright! I taught him a lesson, i blew his ass away. Now bubba is my room mate for the next 20yrs and he thinks i am cute:) Not very smart

ShootemDown
February 5, 2008, 11:01 PM
OK OK OK, too many people site legal action against the pool player as the reason he did the right thing. From 20 years to loving bubba..

That is not the reason he is right, the reason is that taking another human being's life over a pool cue is insane. Killing for pride and honor ? thats debatable.....

but honestly, if he killed them both for some reason, how is the DA gonna know they were running away at the time unless he tells ? Id say, if for some reason I killed two burglars in my home, I'm not gonna say a darn thing !

There is a certain comfort from acting on the side of the rightious... but anyway, kill the buglars or not, check out your local ebay, and craigslist and pawnshops for your cues, they gotta fence them sometime... be sur PD gets a good list, they might find it and return it. good luck

4V50 Gary
February 5, 2008, 11:04 PM
I don't know about PA law, but in California it's a bad shoot and by California standards you did good. If you were in Nevada, you could shoot. Most states follow California and New York in that human life is held in higher regard than chattel (personal property).

Concerning Nevada, I'm not familiar with their tort laws and whether civil liability may arise from shooting a criminal. In California, we have Rowland v. Christian where a burglar fell through a skylight and sued the homeowner for his failure to make the roof safe for him.

Lawyer Daggit
February 5, 2008, 11:09 PM
At common law there is a concept called the 'Fleeing felon rule' which enables use of deadly force against a felon who is fleeing the scene of a crime. This concept has its origins in early UK law, and has been modified I understand in some jurisdictions to only allow the use of non lethal force.

I do not know the situation of the law in Pa. I would say you did the right thing- as you say they were outside your home and fleeing and therefore did not present a threat to life.

I agree with other posts in respect to the question of how did they know the collection was there and where it was located? Makes one suspect 'friends' with loose tongues...

kennybs plbg
February 5, 2008, 11:33 PM
Most states follow California and New York in that human life is held in higher regard than chattel (personal property).


Statements like this drive me crazy. The person doesn't have a clue about NY's laws but makes comments like this and other blind people follow.

For you information shooting would have been justifyed in NYS.

My earlier comment regarding chase was just that "chase" People here as always turned it into shoot to kill. Guess it helps justifying themselves doing nothing. You see in many states you can use any means of force except deadly force to stop them, deadly force comes into play when they resist and threaten your life. You don't have to roll over like everyone says. What a sad PC country we're becoming.

kenny b

Creature
February 6, 2008, 06:54 AM
Benny and Hotdogs...if you feel that killing a fleeing suspect is not going to cause you more problems than you are financially able to withstand, have at it. But you really have no idea how the criminal and civil courts work. You should go watch sometime. If you dont get thrown in the slammer for killing a fleeing suspect, you will more than likely be facing a civil suit in a civil court for damages. Either way, you will be lucky if you arent bankrupted several times over. Doesn't matter that you think your in the right, it is all about what the local prosecutor and the jury thinks happened. That is why shooting a couple of fleeing suspects running off with precious $7,000 dollar pool cues is stupid.

ShootemDown
February 6, 2008, 07:11 AM
bernard goetz was sued and they gave the "victim" millions of dollars, but he never gave them a dime. I think that is in wikipedia...

being sued and losing is not like they really take everything. I would think the real thing to be afraid of is for their criminal friends to come and shoot YOU !

what kind of criminal friends / family "sue" ? they are criminals !

SteelCore
February 6, 2008, 07:29 AM
Like others, I think the right thing was done.

It's not even a legal matter to me. If the "law" says that I'm not allowed to shoot someone who's threatening my life, then I'm shooting anyway, since my life is more important than the law. But even if it were legal for me to shoot to defend $7,500 worth of property, I still wouldn't do it. I could only bring myself to kill another person in defense of life, limb, or liberty.

I don't like thieves, either. But I don't feel that death is a just punishment for theft (unless perhaps some elderly widow has her life savings stolen).

The threat of deadly force can be a reasonable deterrent to theft (e.g., in the case of an armed guard in a bank), but if the threat of that force isn't immediately apparent to would-be thieves, then it seems like killing to defend property is going too far in most cases.

chopz
February 6, 2008, 09:04 AM
regardless of the law, you did the right thing.

first off, i speak as someone who's never been in a similar situation, so those of you who don't agree with me are welcome to disregard my .02. i have been in situations where i had to take action against someone who meant me harm though, and in those situations it's a lose/lose situation, psychologically. whether you act or not you end up regretting that your choice, and second guess yourself as to what was the appropriate course of action. i do, anyway.

2 things to consider:

1) to shoot because you were afraid of some future break-in would have been acting out of fear. by not shooting, what you did was the brave thing.

2) the ability to use force is power, no one would argue that. but the power comes from having that potential - not from acting it out. once you have acted to harm another, that power is gone. in this case you would have transferred power, as the potential threat of action, out of your hands and into the hands of the legal system - and thus possibly into the hands of the bg.

remember the meaning of "si vis pacem, para bellum" - if you want peace, prepare for war. being prepared is in order to ensure the peace, not ensure the use of force. it's the threat of the ability to employ force that gives one power. not its execution.

M1911
February 6, 2008, 09:06 AM
M1911, I assumed we were talking about being armed as well. If I wasn't armed of course I would not pursue two thieves. In regards to multiple threats thats why I have a Bushmaster M4 with a 30rd mag by my bedside for my home defense weapon. How are they going to get the better of you if you're armed? I would have a hard time watching two thieves steal my things and do nothing about it, but maybe it's just me.
Benny, how do you know that they aren't armed as well? My stuff isn't worth my life.

M1911
February 6, 2008, 09:12 AM
At common law there is a concept called the 'Fleeing felon rule' which enables use of deadly force against a felon who is fleeing the scene of a crime. This concept has its origins in early UK law, and has been modified I understand in some jurisdictions to only allow the use of non lethal force.Lawyer daggit, you know (or, at least, you SHOULD know) that Tennessee v. Garner greatly limits the situations in which deadly force can be used against fleeing felons.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

In most states in the US, you can not use deadly force to protect property.

benny27
February 6, 2008, 09:58 AM
Creature, you obviously haven't paid attention to my posts. I actually stated that although I would be tempted to shoot I probably wouldn't in that case. What I did say was that I would have chased those punks half way around the world before I would let them get away with my stuff, given I was armed. I may have shot out the tires or fired at the rear end of the car/van mainly to give the police some positive ID on the vehicle, and try to remember tag numbers as well. All of these actions are completely within my rights because the law says you can use whatever means necessary to protect your property or belongings, with the exception of deadly force. Deadly force only applies if you or yours are in any imminent danger, which is very possible in a break in situation.

ISC
February 6, 2008, 10:39 AM
that easily could have turned into a home invasion. If they had stopped or faced you while holding a cue you should have shot. Multiple assailants with bludgeons is definately grounds for lethal force in most states. You woul have a very hard time justifying shooting anyone in the back unless you can show that they were a potential threat to someone else (ie running toward a family member etc).

MLeake
February 6, 2008, 10:42 AM
You made the right choice, morally and ethically, by not shooting. It would appear you also made the correct legal choice for your home state.

For those who would chase people down over $7500:

What if, in the course of your pursuit, the fleeing felons have a head-on with another car, and kill a young mother and her child? This happened in Pensacola a few years back... Maybe you are willing to assume the risk for yourself, but do you really want to assume it for all the potential innocent bystanders?

You may say that any harm would ultimately be the fault of the thieves, but do you really want to live with the possible repercussions? Not talking lawsuits, or money, but severe emotional damage from having contributed to harming innocents.

On a different note, according to the OP, the alarm system goes off immediately. It went off several seconds, or longer, after the dog started barking. These thieves continued breaking into a house with a barking dog? That in itself is sort of odd, and makes me wonder if they knew the dog was not likely to attack. Still, the usual concern cited by burglars with regard to dogs is not fear of being bitten, but fear of the dog warning homeowners and neighbors that something is amiss.

Creature
February 6, 2008, 10:46 AM
What I did say was that I would have chased those punks half way around the world before I would let them get away with my stuff, given I was armed.

Oh, yes, I have been paying attention to your posts. Your statement that you would have chased them because you were armed implies that you WOULD NOT have chased them if you WEREN'T armed.

If you feel it important and nessassary to chase after someone beyond your property line who is fleeing with your stuff, just dont say you weren't warned.

benny27
February 6, 2008, 10:49 AM
MLeake, I don't know how much money you make, but 7,500 is a lot of money to me. You're damn right I would chase them down over that! I wouldn't plan on insurance to cover it either. As far as them running into innocent bystanders, well that's not really my problem actually. If someone breaks into my home well that is my problem.

benny27
February 6, 2008, 10:52 AM
What is it with some of you people who actually think that criminals have more rights than you do!, just curious..:confused:
Creature, of course I would chase them beyond my property line, because they still have my property! What does property lines have to do with anything, they still have my stuff!

warrior poet
February 6, 2008, 11:03 AM
When talking about right and wrong... there is the law. Like it, love it, hate it, whatever you feel about it, the law is pretty clear. If someone believes the law is unjust, there are procedures within the law to change it. Even the Constitution has Amendments. ;) Personally, I'd like to see thieves hung in public, and buried in a unmarked grave so they at least "give" back to the earth- but I'm not a judge... not my call.
As for not shooting when they are running away, Dave, you did right... you did what was LEGAL. Shooting them would have landed you in court, and probably in jail. Most certainly survivors (or the families of the perps) would have sued in civil court. Your odds there aren't very good. Read the entire link from my last post (prepared by a PA lawyer), you'll see why.

Creature
February 6, 2008, 12:01 PM
What is it with some of you people who actually think that criminals have more rights than you do!, just curious..
Creature, of course I would chase them beyond my property line, because they still have my property! What does property lines have to do with anything, they still have my stuff!

Dude, get a grip. It isnt about your rights being less than those of the criminal's.

It's about the laws as they are written in your state. You need to carefully step back and reassess the laws of your state regarding pursuit of a criminal and the recovery of stolen property...as well as justifiable use and escalation of force in your state.

It just might give you pause. Or not:

I wouldn't plan on insurance to cover it either. As far as them running into innocent bystanders, well that's not really my problem actually.

That is a amazingly callous, irresponsible and, quite frankly, a very telling statement about you.

The real point most of us are making is that stolen property and it's recovery rarely, if ever, is easy...or goes according to plan. We get that you are of the mind set that it's your stuff and you aim to retrieve it. But the point many of us are trying to make is that you might just loose much more than you intended in the process of recovering your stuff.

I just hope it isnt my family that gets hurt during your pursuit of a pool cue.

warrior poet
February 6, 2008, 12:02 PM
AMEN

hogdogs
February 6, 2008, 12:06 PM
Here in Florida I am led to believe that we have the right to use any force to stop a fleeing VIOLENT felon. Those 2 fit that definition fleeing with the goods I think I could have ordered them to stop than fired.
While grand theft is a felony it is not violent in nature. But since I was inside the home it is not a simple B&E any longer... it is now a HOME INVASION and that my friends IS a VIOLENT felony!
Brent

Lurper
February 6, 2008, 12:07 PM
You did the right thing.

Wonder what would have happened to the O.P. if he had shot into the air to get "the attention" of the thieves - to possibly get them to drop the stolen goods?

Still an illegal action?
In AZ, he would have ended up being charged. Advising someone to fire warning shots is only marginally less stupid than advising someone to shoot to wound. What goes up must come down and you are responsible for where the bullet ultimately ends up. Firing into the ground can get you jammed up as well since many jurisdictions have laws against discharging a firearm. In most states, the only time you can legally discharge your firearm (in this context) is in situations where lethal force is legally justified. The law doesn't (nor should it) allow "warning shots", anyone who advises you to fire a warning shot is someone who's advice you shouldn't follow and if you think about firing warning shots, you should think again.

I hope some of you chest beaters will have the decency to continue to post in this forum after you have been inprisoned for your bad "SD" shooting. You may save some other Mall Ninja from the same fate.

Creature
February 6, 2008, 12:10 PM
But since I was inside the home it is not a simple B&E any longer... it is now a HOME INVASION and that my friends IS a VIOLENT felony!

Your window of oppourtunity was lost the moment they departed your home.

M1911
February 6, 2008, 12:10 PM
MLeake, I don't know how much money you make, but 7,500 is a lot of money to me.It's a lot of money to all of us. But it is very, very little money towards hiring a competent defense attorney. A good one will often require $10,000 up front. A self defense case can easily cost $50k or more. Then there's the possibility of a civil trial after that.

I've got homeowner's insurance that would likely pay for a portion of the $7,500.

But more important than the money is the fact that my life is worth more to me than $7,500. I won't put myself if a dangerous situation to save that kind of money. I'll use deadly force, if necessary, to defend myself and/or my family. Stuff is just stuff and can be (eventually) replaced.

M1911
February 6, 2008, 12:14 PM
Warning shots are almost never advisable. You are responsible for the final resting place of each and every shot you fire. The shots you fire up in the air will come down, and could kill someone when they do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 – 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. 38 of them died.

If you are justified in using deadly force, then aim for center of the chest (or head, if chest shots fail). If you are not justified in using deadly force, then don't shoot.

Aqeous
February 6, 2008, 12:23 PM
I'm probably the 50'th person to tell you this by now but you asked for peace of mind. Absolutely you did the right thing.

Regardless of the particular state that you live in, killing someone is an incredible weight and responsibility. Some people just shrug it off, most people not. Only you can answer this: do you feel better about the fact that you did not shoot someone in the back as they fled? If you do, than sleep soundly. Anything that costs money can also eventually be replaced. I myself would have not shot. My guns are not meant for those who are running full speed away from me, they are solely to protect my life and the life of those whom I love. Protecting my material possessions are second to this single fact.

Even if you shoot someone in self defense under the most optimal of conditions, your still stand to possibly be arrested and processed. Because you didn't shoot you got to go back to your bed whether you could go back to sleep or not. Keep that in mind. A good example of this would be if one of the men you shot turned out to be someone that you knew. You then may find yourself have to explain to the cops, prosecutors exc.) of how a past acquaintance of yours ended up shot in the back (possibly unarmed) with a hand full of pool sticks. I'm not saying that things might turn out in your favor, but why bother dealing with it if you don't have to. You probably earn enough in your tournaments to replaced your pool sticks in some reasonable expanse of time or you wouldn't have had them in the first place.

Lastly: people don't just break into houses and steal pool sticks. Someone out there THAT YOU KNOW is responsible for this. Check the pawn shops for them, keep an eye out when your out because they may just be dumb enough to use one of them when their out shooting pool, and check out E-bay because they may be dumb enough to sell it there to. If they knew how much they were worth and they wanted them, they are either going to use them or sell them somewhere where they could get there moneys worth for their efforts.


In terms of protection of my homestead, what happened to you this is exactly why I own a rottweiler. People tend to think twice when they know that 120+ ponds of teeth are behind your front door, sometimes it is an even better deterrent than having a gun.

IdahoG36
February 6, 2008, 12:36 PM
They are dirtbags for stealing your stuff... but can a price be put on a mans life?


I say yes you can. A man should be able to feel safe in his own home and not have to worry about criminals breaking in to steal your belongings, or possibly harm you or your family. If more criminals were shot and killed, I believe they would be less likely to commit crimes. How many more crimes did the criminals commit after they got away? If they were dead, they wouldn't have the opportunity to commit crimes. This is just my personal opinion.

To the original poster- you did the right thing. Shooting a robber in the back as he is running away is a sure ticket to prison. You lost a good amount of money in personal belongings, but they can be replaced. Your life and freedom can't be replaced.

hogdogs
February 6, 2008, 01:06 PM
Creature, According to the Volusia County Deputy that informed me... I can shoot the fleeing home invader of some one else's home. As I stated I have the right to apprehend a VIOLENT felon suspect with ANY level of force needed.
Florida.
I do not have the right to shoot a guy who is having a fist fight with another as it may not be a felony assault situation but them home invaders sure are violent felony suspects. And yes I would have been fully justified in shooting them in the back INSIDE my home for sure! And I would have for a 7 dollar warped pool cue with a broken tip! My wife would have made me clean up the mess and that would be that...
Brent

Aqeous
February 6, 2008, 01:23 PM
hogdogs

I don't agree with your stance but at least men like you are making would-be burglars and violent offenders more fearful of the rest of us . . .

I'd just assume an intruder make a mess on my floor (by other means) as he tucked tail and ran at the very sight of my gun.

Creature
February 6, 2008, 01:46 PM
Creature, According to the Volusia County Deputy that informed me... I can shoot the fleeing home invader of some one else's home. As I stated I have the right to apprehend a VIOLENT felon suspect with ANY level of force needed.

You would do well to hit the books and sight the laws for yourself before taking a sheriff's deputy at his word. Seriously.

You also need to learn the difference between "burgalry" and "home invasion", then see applicable laws regarding both.

warrior poet
February 6, 2008, 01:48 PM
Let's keep one thing in mind. The OP lives in Pennsylvania. What's legal in Florida, Idaho, Nevada, or anywhere else IS NOT GOING TO HELP HIM AVOID GOING TO JAIL!! Check out this link... and I hate repeating myself... for a PA lawyer's interpretation of PA law. BTW, the lawyer is very much into self-defense. He's a martial artist... AND a prosecutor. That makes him a pretty good source in my book.

The full article is at: http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/general-4.htm

JohnDoe.357
February 6, 2008, 01:55 PM
You all should read the Supreme Court case Tennessee vs. Garner (1985). It has to do with shooting fleeing felons in the back to prevent their escape. The Court ruled that the fleening felon must pose a great enough danger to society to warrent the taking of his life. Pay close attention to the disenting opinion made by Justice O'connor where she states that the violent nature and terror of home burglaries justify killing.

Creature
February 6, 2008, 01:59 PM
Warrior poet:

I suspect we are talking to brick walls. They are going to thump their chests regardless of what is presented to them.

hogdogs
February 6, 2008, 02:05 PM
Aqeous, Just doin' my part I guess...
I have an awareness that once a BG gets away from you unscathed he is a bit more educated. Plus if he seen my gun he is likely to try to pattern my movements to make a breakin while I am away to procure my guns to sell for dope or use in a crime. Like in poker once you show yer hand you no longer have any edge.
Creature, I live in florida and here entry of an OCCUPIED dwelling is home invasion. I also am afforded the right to defend my self with ANY force based on the assumption that if they are inside they ARE a threat!
Burglary is theft... unlawful entry of a domicile/building is B&E. But if it is occupied it is HOME INVASION!
If they turn their back to leave are they coming back in an hour with my neighbors stolen "foetee"? This is a disyinct threat with todays deviant youth thinkin' they lost the battle cuz they ol'guy stopped them from finishing the heist with an order to leave or be shot. As soon as I know it is not family or an invited guest I shall not utter any more words nor give the poop their pants rack-a-shell warning from the mossy 500... it already has one on deck with 5 in the on deck circle... This ain't show and tell here folks. And if any "critters" (thanks law dog) read this and consider the possible ramifications of illegal entry than I done good!
Brent

ShootemDown
February 6, 2008, 02:09 PM
Maybe if you shoot them with a .50 BMG, then there is no difference between the front nor the back.. just a big scattered mess like your meatball mariniara in the microwave that been in there cooking too long.

:D:D

warrior poet
February 6, 2008, 02:10 PM
Creature:

I'm going to guess by your signature that you're a Marine. (Past or present doesn't matter... Once a Marine, always a Marine.)

As such, I find it a little scary that two Devil Dogs are the ones calling for restraint. Really makes me wonder...

Creature
February 6, 2008, 02:13 PM
Burglary is theft... unlawful entry of a domicile/building is B&E. But if it is occupied it is HOME INVASION!

Please site Florida law regarding Burglary, B&E, and home invasion.

hogdogs
February 6, 2008, 02:21 PM
Creature I am busy reading "murphy was a grunt" archives right now. My dial up speed is under 14KBPS so if you want to learn it I prefer to send folks to "google". Florida gun forum is a place full of answers too. What the castle doctrine did for us was multifold and among the benefits is we no longer have to retreat nor be attacked to "use lethal force"... BTW I ain't defending my paltry sum of goods I am defending myself against someone who invaded my home and if they run I will chase them down so the lawmen can get them off the street so they don't come back. If this happens to also remove a home invader from threatening my neighbors GREAT...
Brent

Creature
February 6, 2008, 02:31 PM
Okey dokey...

Dan M.
February 6, 2008, 03:07 PM
Tell me if my timing is off here--

You heard the dog bark. You're on your way downstairs when you hear the alarm. When you get close to the front door, you see the guys running out with your rack of cues. I'm assuming you have a--what, 30 second delay once the alarm is tripped before it goes off? It sounds to me like the guys knew exactly where to go for an easy grab of expensive stuff to make a quick getaway, so they either had inside knowledge, or had somehow cased your layout previously. You choose which one sounds more reasonable.

The alarm goes off immediately, no delay.

So, the dog is barking and they are still outside. They break in and immediately the alarm sounds as you are already coming downstairs. By the time you see them, they are already running out the door with your cues. That sounds even more like they knew exactly where to go and what to grab. How did they know?

BTW, you did the right thing.

Aqeous
February 6, 2008, 03:35 PM
I was kind of speaking metaphorically since we are talking about shooting a fleeing suspect after he had already exited your front door . . .

But by all means shoot away . . .

Florida probably won't care . . . it is after all America's wang . . .

At present in Florida it is now also entirely legal to use deadly force out on the street too if you at all feel your life is threatened. (though actually proving that not with standing.) Before leaving a potential confrontation was the assumption of the law but not anymore . . . so argue, P-off each other, have it escalate, go for the glove box, and blow each other strait to hell if you so desire. Hey . . . it's legal now . . .


FOR: the conceal and carry crowd: just to make clear this is not the normal conceal to carry stipulations. This is something different all together about this particular law that had all the anti-gunners fearing there would be war in the streets a little while back. Just thought I'd clear that up before anyone blasted me about it . . .

hogdogs
February 6, 2008, 04:02 PM
aqeous, With any and all due respect... violent crimes have not escalated since the castle doctrine and similar laws went into being. Just as many thought open carry laws would result in wild west shoot 'em ups daily it was quite the opposite. Now if you have "don't shoot... gun free zone" stickers on your bumper or front door you may well be a target. But otherwise it is a brazen thug to just randomly pick a florida home or driver to victimize. If you are a good enuff shot it ain't too hard to prove it was a justified use of lethal force...
Tongue in cheek or not... I left the HIGH CRIME region of central Florida for a much more sedate way of life. No chain saw? Oh well go get junior and a few boxes of shot shells and cut down that dead tree... Leave shells lay... I don't think you are ever more than 25 feet from a spent shot shell... My 30 pound pit cross will die for me but not my stuff so I tend to keep her with pups as she will go ape chit on a stranger over them!
We rednecks do what we must...
Brent

benny27
February 6, 2008, 05:14 PM
Creature, Dude you are just wrong, ask any respectable law enforcement agency and they will all tell you the same thing. You can do everything within reasonable means to protect your property or belongings. Everything that I've stated that I would do is perfectly in the realm of my rights, go back and read my posts again, obviously you're not getting it. I never once suggested that I would shoot a fleeing suspect, but I will do everything in my power to see justice brought to the perpetrators and my things returned. I would love to be a thief in your house it would be some easy pickins, because god knows you wouldn't do anything to stop me. You would be afraid I might sue. The fact is I would be in the right and you are wrong my friend., end of story.

Caeser23
February 6, 2008, 05:40 PM
If I remember correctly from what I read in PA law you can shoot in protection of life and property, however you still did the right thing.

Lurper
February 6, 2008, 06:12 PM
Benny, you really should learn more about the law. Regardless of whether your state is one of the few which allows defense of property, the actions that you claim are "within my rights" are clearly not. Try explaining how suspects fleeing in an automobile pose a threat to you.

I may have shot out the tires or fired at the rear end of the car/van mainly to give the police some positive ID on the vehicle, and try to remember tag numbers as well.


All of these actions are completely within my rights because the law says you can use whatever means necessary to protect your property or belongings, with the exception of deadly force.
What part of shooting at an automobile do you think is not deadly force?
Some of you really need to learn your state's laws and to understand that the law is only half of what you need to know. The other half is case law precedent. Some of you are real scary.

benny27
February 6, 2008, 06:18 PM
Lurper, you as well are wrong. If you don't believe me check with your local law enforcement and see for yourself. The point is if someone breaks in my house to steal or whatever they are in danger of being shot, it goes with the whole burglar territory. True, I would never shoot anyone in the back, but they're not getting off scott free either.

Aqeous
February 6, 2008, 06:41 PM
No Florida did not turn into the wild west . . . I did not suggest that it did. This thread is speaking to a mans peace of mind.

We all have our views and our individual ways that we value life. I will not kill a man over neither warped pool stick or a crayon. If I use my means to defend myself it will be against a direct threat against either myself or my loved ones. Shooting a man that is about to disappear out the door in my opinion boarders recklessness, if not for any other reason than YOUR FIRST order of business should be clearing your home of other potential threats--not hightailing down the street shooting at two fleeing men that may or may not be armed as well.

But thats just me.

Hawg
February 6, 2008, 06:46 PM
I would blow his back out his belly??? you are either a chest beater want to be or not very bright! I taught him a lesson, i blew his ass away. Now bubba is my room mate for the next 20yrs and he thinks i am cute Not very smart

Your opinions.

Socrates
February 6, 2008, 07:01 PM
The only state I know of that will allow such shootings, fleeing felon in the back, on b&e is Louisiana, since it's based on Napoleonic code, that puts property over persons, unlike the other states of the union.

However, that said, DA's, and police in Louisiana often bring their liberal-facist training to the state, and don't bother to enforce the laws as written(see New Orleans gungrab by police, and DA failing to return firearms).

Aqeous
February 6, 2008, 07:07 PM
Like I said in my previous post . . . this thread is about helping a man find his peace of mind.

--No one is blowing anyones back out someones belly with a handgun . . .

--Not everyone is willing to bare the weight of killing some one over some warped pool stick . . .

--not everyone willing to take a stand and pull that trigger to protect life and limb is going to be so enthusiastic about the opportunity when they might get that chance.

THIS is about whether or not any of us would fire on a fleeing suspect (in his back) just as he exits the door. Most of us said no, some said yes, but for the sake of the one who posted this thread (if you are still even reading) if you don't find yourself wishing that you had to clean a pool of blood off of the cement in front of your door . . .then you made the right decision simple as that.

Forget about all the rest.

I am done posting here . . .

Hawg
February 6, 2008, 07:14 PM
The only state I know of that will allow such shootings, fleeing felon in the back, on b&e is Louisiana, since it's based on Napoleonic code, that puts property over persons, unlike the other states of the union.

Like I said before I've already had this discussion with the local authorities and I'm well within my rights to kill to keep my property. I've had thousands of dollars worth of my property stolen and the police came up empty handed.
On a similar note I personally know someone that shot a man in the back six times because the man came to his home and threatened him. He served no time and this was before castle doctrine. Castle doctrine in Ms. covers your home, vehicle, and any other property you have legal access to.

kgpcr
February 6, 2008, 07:33 PM
Some people should not be allowed to own guns!

MikeinLA
February 6, 2008, 07:33 PM
I think you did the right thing, although a few warning shots from a .45 might have gotten them to drop the goods. Alarms are great at awakening you to a home invasion robbery, but I would look into how well your home is secured in the first place. Also, you might add motion sensors to your alarm system to alert you to movement BEFORE they get in.

Mike

Lurper
February 6, 2008, 07:34 PM
Benny, I don't have to check my state's laws, I teach them as they pertain to deadly force. Sorry, but it doesn't matter what state you are in, the law does not allow you to shoot at a vehicle unless they are attempting to run you over. I suggest you check not with a law enforcement agency but with the state's attorney's office. You may find that you need to rethink your position.

benny27
February 6, 2008, 07:47 PM
Lurper, If that was true than the laws as they were written would be void. The law simply states that you can use whatever means necessary to protect property that is reasonable to stop the theft. That to me implies that if your home is broken into you don't have to stand by and let them get away. If there were any charges filed against me, there would be one hell of a law suit against the state, because the law as it is written is misleading and false. That is how I know I would be in the right to chase down thiefs with my property.

Creature
February 6, 2008, 07:54 PM
Wow. Just...wow.

Capt Charlie
February 6, 2008, 09:05 PM
Good grief! This thing has gone off topic and outta hand in near record time!

Dave, as others have said, ya done good. So the question's been asked and answered, several times over.

For some of you others, believe me, I understand the feeling of outrage that naturally happens when your own home has been violated. What the hey? It can't hurt to vent some of that outrage here on the Internet, right?

Wrong!

#1. You take a human life only when there's no other choice, and not one damned second before. :mad:

#2. But hey, it's only the Internet! See my sig line :mad:.

Closed.