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View Full Version : Why Expensive Shotguns??


T.A.Sharps
February 3, 2008, 04:02 AM
First off, I'll say I own many guns, and I believe any red, white, and blue blooded American should own a shotgun.

But for the life of me I don't understand people paying over a grand, or more for some shotguns.

I have a Rifled Rem 870 I got a few years ago, took it hunting last year, got a head shot at 75yrds, and I know it could of at 200. Thats as good as I think plastic will give you, and I didn't spend no $1000+ on it, although the ammo was close to that.

But, why buy a $1000+, smooth bore shotgun?????

Other than, its slightly better in form and function. You are still shooting the same plastic cartridge and the same pellets, or slugs, out of a smooth bore.

Stiofan
February 3, 2008, 04:35 AM
Yes, and a Porsche still drives on the same roads as a Chevy.

For some the Chevy is all they want. That's fine too.

predator86
February 3, 2008, 05:08 AM
are you talking about the skeet guns?? those 1500 dollar over/unders with engraving and all that??? apparantly you dont shoot skeet...at my first skeet shoot i used a remington 870 on the first day of a 2 day shoot, i did pretty well in scoring, shoulder was kinda sore but no big deal, the second day i used a browning citori over/under and you wouldnt believe the difference!! the way it felt in my hands, the trigger pull, it was a completly different world when i was using the over/under......if you are talking about something else now then i dont know what to tell ya....

SmokinTom
February 3, 2008, 06:06 AM
Why not have expensive shotguns to go along with expensive ammo and gas and milk and everything else? It`s just the way it is.

roy reali
February 3, 2008, 11:18 AM
Another point. At the trap club I used to frequent, some of the best shooters did not use the fancy shotguns. The best trap shooter at that club used an old, beat up, field grade, 870. He could outshoot the the guys with guns that cost more then a small sedan.

I do believe that some shotgunners think that an expensive, fancy firearm can make up for any short comings in skills.

m24shooter
February 3, 2008, 12:27 PM
Because they can?
Is there any reason not to if they have the means?
For some it's pride of ownership, for some it is akin to a functioning piece of art. For some it's brand recognition/status symbols.
For some it's knowing that the shotgun will absolutely work and fit.
For some it might be all they know about.

Mainah
February 3, 2008, 03:17 PM
And some people wouldn't go for a head shot at 75 yards. Different strokes...

YukonKid
February 3, 2008, 03:58 PM
I have an 870, model 12, Pre-64 A5 and a Browning Citori. They are all about 400 dollars appart in value. I like them all for different reasons.

I like the nice wood finnish and the eligance of the citori. The A5 is very fast and its easy to clean. The 870 is tougg as nails, it goes everywhere i do, but its not a refined piece, it is a mass produced pump, and it serves its purpose.
The model 12 is special for other reasons.

different guns for different types.

YUkonkid

PT111
February 3, 2008, 04:12 PM
Lots of people like to impress their buddies before the shooting starts because they can't when the shooting does. It's like golf clubs or almost aything else, certain one fit individuals better. I don't like a Glock simply because it doesn't work with my short fat fingers. I have an 870, 1100, Fox SxS made in 1910 and an old single barrel 16ga that my grandfather gave me. I enjoy them all and each one has its place. I wish that I had bought that Citori back in 78 when I started to but can't afford it now. :mad:

Rembrandt
February 3, 2008, 04:22 PM
Why Expensive Shotguns??.....But for the life of me I don't understand people paying over a grand, or more for some shotguns.....But, why buy a $1000+, smooth bore shotgun?????

If you have to ask....I'd guess you can't afford anything better. Be happy with what you have, leave quality firearms to people who appreciate them.

akr
February 3, 2008, 04:46 PM
Whooooo.......zap!!! :eek: :barf:

T.A.Sharps
February 3, 2008, 05:27 PM
First of all, are you that guy everyone above has been talking about that buys a big shiney expensive shotgun so he can impress everyone before the shooting starts? Then the old salty guy shuts you up with his rusty Winchester?

Second, Rembrandt, I'll spend my extra money where it will improve ballistics, for instance a custom Benchrest rifle. That would be something I can see where the money goes.

I bet my cheap shotgun will pattern the same as yours, and shoot slugs just as far.

Really, I kind of gather that a $2000 really perty shotgun would be more to make up for about $1500 worth of the shooter's own short comings in handling the firearm.

I'd understand it more if someone just said they'd spend the extra money just because it was a cool gun.

I knew an old dude that was duck hunting with a H&R single shot, and three extra shells between his fingers, of course the hillbillies he was with gave him some sh!t. But when the birds flew he shot as fast as they did, and killed as many.

jaymce
February 3, 2008, 05:42 PM
Why expensive shotguns? This questions always seem to crop up on sites at some point.

I have a few questions:

1) why does it matter?:confused:

2) When I read these posts it it seems that I am one of the owners of the these "expensive" shotguns (seems that any thing over 1K is considered expensive). To me I feel that I am one of the people with a cheap shotgun. I spent 550$ on my Mossburg SR and 2500$ on my Browning. The SR lasted 1200 rounds and had 4 failures, now gone, the Browining has gone about 7000 rounds and has had no failures. It seems to me that the Browning is a better value.;) Why is it that there seems to be a disdain for any one with a gun worth more than 1K to purchase? (I spent as little as I could to buy a gun I felt would last me for as long as I needed and be reliable)

3) Why do folks with "cheap" shotguns feel a need to bash those with a gun worth more than there gun. I can not remember a post that is titled "Why would you by a cheap shotgun?":rolleyes:

I think frankly that if you stopped to talk to the folks you are shooting with then you will find they are all pretty decent guys regardless of what gun they are shooting.

I have a friend at the range I shoot with that is a semi-pro shooter who owns an expensive gun. I did not know him 2 years ago. Had I wrote him off due to the fact that he has a gun worth 10 times mine then I would not be the shooter I am today, he has helped me with all aspects of shotgunning, and shotgun fit and has been a good mentor over the last 18 months.

Maybe I am just lucky but I can not remember any time that how much someone spent on there gun has entered into some kind of judgement on the clays field. The first time I came to shoot clays I brought a 18in tactical pump shotgun and I felt out of place among all those o/u shotguns but guys immediately leaned over my shoulders and gave pointers and advice. By the end of the day I was hooked.:D

johnbt
February 3, 2008, 07:17 PM
"But for the life of me I don't understand people paying over a grand, or more for some shotguns."

A grand? I spent that much on a 9mm pocket pistol last year.

You work your way up to it if you're like me. A grand isn't even expensive as guns go these days. I don't know where expensive starts for shotguns, but it's probably in the $5k, $10k ($50k?) range.

Why spend more than the bare minimum. Some people, like me, started off 40 or 50 years ago with a borrowed .410 bolt. Then we got something else. I got a Savage .22mag/.410 O/U and then a Fox Model B 12 ga. SxS. Time passed, an 870 Express was added and a black synthetic 12 ga 1100 and then a used Win SX2 Waterfowl and a used Win SX1 field grade. Got a Guerini 28 ga. O/U from my father that's now listing for $2500+ new and that's their least expensive model. He also gave me a Win Model 37 .410 and a bunch of other guns when he moved to assisted living.

Now I'm trying to decide if I want an entry-level Guerini sporting clays gun with an MSRP of $3800 or a Beretta O/U or a Beretta clays model 391 for a grand or two. I'll figure it out, looking for the right gun is half the fun.

You know, I might just get 2 or 3. OTOH, there's an auction coming up in 3 weeks that my uncle told me about and it has a few shotguns that sound interesting. A Model 42 .410, a Model 97, 3 or 4 Model 12s, a Parker, etc.

I've been working since 1965 and full-time since '74. Should I try to die with a bunch of money in the bank like a bunch of my relatives or try to spend some of it?

I've missed shots with old, used, cheap guns and I've missed shots with new, fancy fairly costly guns. It was more fun missing with the nice guns. :) And they're nicer to look at while you're waiting for something to happen.

I buy what I like and enjoy them. They certainly don't make me shoot any worse.

John

Rembrandt
February 3, 2008, 07:34 PM
....buys a big shiney expensive shotgun so he can impress everyone before the shooting starts?.....I kind of gather that a $2000 really perty shotgun would be more to make up for about $1500 worth of the shooter's own short comings in handling the firearm.....I'd understand it more if someone just said they'd spend the extra money just because it was a cool gun.

Those comments speak more about your buying motivation......and a lack of knowledge concerning upper end shotguns.

45Dave
February 3, 2008, 08:00 PM
Quite frankly...because often they are well worth it. My main hunting gun has been an 870 wingmaster vintage 1950, smooth as silk which was my dad and will be passed to my son. I have taken ducks, geese, deer, rabbit, grouse, pheasant and a few other things not worth mentioning. However..I also shoot skeet, trap and sporting clays. My nice shinny browning GTI (dressed up citori) gained me 5 birds at sporting clays. It is a delight to shoot, swings like a dream, great follow ups on hard crossing or hare/bird combinations and has taken game in the field which includes doves, pheasant, geese and rabbits. Keep in mind T.A when I head out shooting clays I will put 200 to 300 rounds through it in a day and you really feel that in a 870 vs the browning. (by the way..when I was on top of my game my average was a 43 out of 50 in clays)
So....you have ask a good question, I would you suggest you head out to a skeet range, talk to the guys and try a few over/unders, side by sides and find out for yourself, oh...try a few top end semi's also...you may be surprised.

WIN71
February 3, 2008, 08:40 PM
A friend of mine came up with an answer to that very question over 40 years ago.

“There are ‘T’ shirt, Tennis shoe and Timex kinda guys and there are Rolex, Rolls Royce and Reebok kinda guys.

And just about everything in between .

Ruger4570
February 3, 2008, 10:19 PM
Going back to the first post,, this is like reverse snobbery. I have never seen a $5,000 gun that didn't look better than a Mossberg. People buy what they like, what works well for them and sure as hell don't need your permission to buy them. Holland & Holland don't need to make excuses as to why the prices. The price is what it is. If you want quality, well it costs. You willing to settle for a Mossberg as your Trap or Skeet gun, fine, it will probably break birds as well as anything, but don't look down your nose at those that like a higher class of gun. You buy what YOU can afford and there is no reason to comment on those that can afford better guns and want the quality. Understand that you don't have the money and some do. Suck it up and just shoot the birds without the B'itching

akr
February 3, 2008, 11:31 PM
Different strokes for different folks. It's all about what makes a guy feel good about his guns, and that's O.K. He pays for them. We only have to please ourselves.

classic095
February 4, 2008, 11:42 AM
1000 for a shotgun, thats cheap, for those that are really into the shotgun sports, ie, Trap, Skeet, sporting clays and 5 stand..

A cheap gun will not last 200,000 rounds, and most cheap guns slap the hell out of the shooter in time, I noticed you said your shoulder was sore. HMMMM try shooting a good gun that wont hurt ya.. I shoot on the average of 5 rounds of Skeet a day 3 days a week, and 5 rounds of Trap every thursday, When I am done I dont even have a red mark on my shoulder. Try a browning trap or skeet gun, or my gun of choice is my tournement Trap grade Remington 1100, with change in barrels for what ever dicipline I am going to shoot..

Now some people I know paid around 25 or 30 grand for some of their shotguns, to me that is the other end of extreme,, either extremely cheap (250.00) or extremely expensive (30 grand)

I garentee ya you use a mossberg 500 for shooting trap all day, and I will use my Trap gun 1100 and you gonna hurt

cxg231
February 4, 2008, 12:38 PM
Another point. At the trap club I used to frequent, some of the best shooters did not use the fancy shotguns. The best trap shooter at that club used an old, beat up, field grade, 870. He could outshoot the the guys with guns that cost more then a small sedan.

Well, this gets into the fundamental point here. The most important factor is the person pulling the trigger, not the shotgun itself.

If I can learn to shoot well with my $500 O/U, then step up to a nicer model, then I will shoot ever better (presumably). :)

Musketeer
February 4, 2008, 01:09 PM
I do believe that some shotgunners think that an expensive, fancy firearm can make up for any short comings in skills.

There is some definite truth there. What is not said though is that a quality, well made and fitted shotgun can help a good shooter to shoot better.

As far as the fancy engraving and hand finishing... some people choose to decorate their homes with paintings and sculptures they consider beautiful and others find such beauty in the craftsmanship of a fine firearm. Anything beyond fit and function is purely decorative, but that does not make it meaningless. Added decoration is as meaningless to the person who owns it as any other fine art.

johnbt
February 4, 2008, 01:51 PM
"At the trap club I used to frequent, some of the best shooters did not use the fancy shotguns."

But did they own any nice ones? Just curious.

Meanwhile, I'd love to have this F Grade Model 1100 from William Larkin Moore's site.

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/files/listing/433/p1011574.jpg

It's a 28 ga., too. Only $7500.

YukonKid
February 4, 2008, 02:00 PM
i would love to see a geo race against a lambo...they both get you somewhere but its how you want to travel there. Sure, you can hit stuff with an old 870...that does not put it on par with a nice SxS

BigJimP
February 4, 2008, 05:34 PM
I'm not going to say you have to spend over $1,000 for a competition shotgun - but I do and there are reasons to do it / or reasons I can justify doing it.

A gun like a Browning XS Skeet over under retails at about $ 2,500 - but its a very stong and reliable gun / and its very versatile with a lot of built in adjustment ( adjustable comb, length of pull, etc ). I have Browning XS Skeet models that have gone thru 30,000 rounds a year - for several years - and never given me a bit of trouble. You won't be able to put 200,000 rounds thru a pump or semi-auto for that matter without major rebuilds.

Shotguns don't come in one size fits all - many of us need an adjustment at the comb or the heel or both - and without that, the gun will not shoot where we look. You can make a non-adjustable comb gun fit with stick on pads, etc - but an adjustable comb / recoil pad is a better way to do it.
Most field guns are about 7 or 7 1/2 lbs - and if you shoot 50 or 75 boxes a month, going to a heavier gun, significantly reduces recoil. Personally I like a 10lb gun for shooting Trap ( and a 32" barrel on an over under like the Browning XT-Trap or a 34" barrel on a Browning BT-99 ). You can't buy either one of those guns, even used, under $2,000 in decent shape.

I do like the Benelli Super Sport semi-auto as a very versatile gun - lots of adjustability - and at $ 1500 its a lot of gun for the money. But its a single barrel - and I prefer an over under so I can select different chokes for each barrel in sporting clays or on Continental Trap where I can shoot 2 shells. You can compensate for choke by selecting shells with different loads in them - but its easy to forget which shell has 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2s at 1300 fps vs a 1 oz load at 1225 fps vs 1 oz of 9's ...

If a standard "field" gun dimension really fits you, your fortunate - and if you like shooting a 7 1/2 lb gun for skeet, sporting clays or trap - go ahead and have a good time with it. But don't automatically assume that guys that want to spend some money on a dedicated Trap gun - or a dedicated Skeet gun - either can't shoot, or don't know what they're doing - most of them do just fine. Its pretty rare that I see many rounds of 25 straight in Skeet or 16 yard Trap shot with anything except a well fitted over under. Most competitive Trap and Skeet shooters, not the elite level of shooters, just average club competitive shooters - average from 95 - 100 out of 100 targets. But if you want to shoot a pump gun in my Skeet or Trap squad, you're welcome to shoot whatever you want - I will think no less of you as a competitor but I'll be happy to shoot whatever style or type of gun I want regardless of whether you think its a waste of my money or not ( it is my money after all ). Who wins - who knows - and who cares - as long as everyone is safe and you shoot within the rules, we will have no problems. Come out an join us at Skeet, Trap and Sporting clays with whatever shotgun you have.

classic095
February 5, 2008, 07:31 AM
My tournement trap 1100, has over 200,000 rounds through it and dang back in 1990, I think it was then, I had to replace the extractor. Now that is what I call a major overhaul.. :D:D:D:D

Ruger4570
February 5, 2008, 11:22 PM
TA Sharps. Personally I think you need to expand your thinking, much as you like to use Tom Sellecks movie line as your signature. He simply said that he was aware of the Colt Pistols, just didn't use them. You should adopt the same attitude, you are aware some shotguns are priced above $1,000, you simply don't use them.
I sure wish I could afford some of the guns out there and I sure don't find fault with those more fortunate than I when it comes to what they can afford.
We all know what that kinda attitude means. I am sorry you feel that way about people that have more spendable income than you, but, there is NO reason for someone with the money to drop down to YOUR level of thinking, just so YOU can feel good about your opinion. You obviously have a problem with people making more money than you. May I ask what Law school you graduated from, or Medical College, well maybe a College that specialised in Accounting?, Nuclear Science?, Electronic Engeerining maybe??
I dunno, did you ask my opinion when you bought your last pick up truck? Or for that matter, anyone on this forum what THEY thought about YOUR opinion and choice? Doubtful, Huh?
Next time you buy a loaf of bread, you should check with us to see if it is permissable. You need a new TV, well ,, check with us and we will let YOU know what you can have based on OUR opinions, regardless of what you want or think. If you spend more than we think you should , we will most likely jump your case as flaunting your money and making us all feel bad. Get the point yet??

Shell Shucker
February 10, 2008, 11:51 PM
The guys I know that have expensive shotguns are getting there moneys worth.
Most of them are shooting 2 or more times per week. They are using a beautifully crafted tool that fits them and will hold up for hundreds of thousands of rounds.
They have the money and they use it several times a week almost every week. In that light I don't see a $10,000 Krieghoff as an extravagant purchase for them. I think that is a much better purchase than a $20k Harley or $35k bass boat that gets used 4-5 times a year (I'm only referring to the Harley's and boats that rarely get used).
I'm using my Citouris, and an old 1100, a couple of times a week. I'm getting my moneys worth and I'm happy!

castnblast
February 11, 2008, 10:14 PM
I think I addressed the bottom line on another thread about pump guns...Someone asked which one was best...My response was the one that fits you best. The same goes here. An expensive perrazzi (sp? yeah, i don't own one, probably never will...LOL!) or a cheap whatever wont hit jack if it does not fit you...buy a gun that fits, and you will save yourself lots of anguish. I bought a new I-12 limited...I didn't set out to buy this gun, I wanted the lesser expensive synthetic version, but when i picked this gun up, and it FIT, I couldn't say no. It's like a shoe that fits exactly perfect. For a new gun, after shooting the same gun for 25 years, I'm shooting extremely well. the sight pix is slightly different because it does fit, and has a longer barrel, thus a tighter group than my old gun. So it takes some getting used to, but the feel and swing difference is HUGE.

pistola40
February 11, 2008, 10:22 PM
First shotgun I learned to shoot with was a browning light twelve (shot my first deer with this gun) Because my grandfather left it to my younger brother, I had to give it back. I now own a remington 870, gets the job done, but there is a night and day difference... I will buy one of those light twelve's some day down the road.

skeeter1
February 12, 2008, 01:16 AM
"But, why buy a $1000+, smooth bore shotgun????? "

To each his own, I guess. In my own experience, I have one SKB 12-gauge double (now worth much more than $1K) with more than 25K rounds through it at the trap range, and never a single failure to fire. Engraved, silver-plated receiver, black-chromed barrels, gold-plated trigger... hey, you get what you pay for.

If you like what you have, fine, but don't carp at the rest of us. Fine shotguns cost some fine money. In the long run, IMHO, they're worth it.

Frank Ettin
February 12, 2008, 01:35 AM
[1] My Perazzi MX14 combo that I shoot trap with and my Bernardelli Lusso SXS that I shoot pheasants with are worth it to me.

[2] I don't have to justify why I have such shotguns -- not even to my wife. She has her own Perazzi combo and her Gamba SXS.:D

ActivShootr
February 12, 2008, 05:02 PM
I would LOVE to be able to spend 30 grand on a Kreighoff or Perazzi. That would mean I have plenty of money to take care of the day-to-day operations. Right now $1000 is kinda steep but if I had a grand or more to spend on a shotgun I surely would.

I think to some, an expensive gun is more like a functioning piece of art rather than just a shotgun.

Frank Ettin
February 12, 2008, 06:58 PM
Apropos of what ActivShootr has written, let me add that one doesn't necessarily need a high end shotgun for the clay target games, hunting or anything else. Championships have been won, and bag limits filled, with modest equipment. It's the Indian and not the arrow.

But if one appreciates high end shotguns (or rifles or pistols) and is lucky enough to have the means to satisfy his business and familial responsibilities and also indulge his tastes, there's no reason he should not.

And while one doesn't need a Perazzi (or Mercedes or Rolex or Les Baer), they are wonderful machines, can perform their functions well and are satisfying to use.

Ruger4570
February 12, 2008, 09:17 PM
I guess my take is that I DO own a few high end shotguns along with a few not so high end ones. I could shoot Trap or whatever with a Rem870 or 1100until it just fell apart, buy another one and start over, all for a WHOLE lot less than a single K-80. In fact, I probably could repeat this scinerio forever and still not have the cost of a Kreigoff invested. Why in Gods name would I want to spend the price of a K-80 when I can have a lifetime of 1100's for less?
It is because "I Choose too" I don't NEED TA Sharps input, opinion or permission to do this and if he can't understand that he is obviousy a "reverse elitist".
Actually, I have more of a Browning kinda budget as opposed to the really classy guns.

M14fan
February 12, 2008, 11:23 PM
While I do not own one due to monetary constraints, I have had the privelege of shooting clays with a Browning Citori 20ga over and under. I can honestly say that I now understand the price. That is the sweetest shotgun I have ever put to my shoulder! It is truly (to borrow a line from Harley riders) a case of 'if you have to ask......' Maybe someday I will have the incredible good fortune to be able to own a shotgun of this quality.

P95GI180
February 14, 2008, 02:06 AM
Anyone have a $30K shotgun? I want to see it!!:)

YukonKid
February 14, 2008, 03:26 AM
Me to, i would love to see some pics. I have about $3,000 in 3 shotguns, but a 30K would be awesome.

YK

johnbt
February 14, 2008, 10:55 AM
No $30k shotguns at my house yet. The ones I keep looking at are all $50k to $120k. I can dream can't I?

John

BruceRDucer
February 14, 2008, 11:04 AM
This IS a very enjoyable thread though.

I learned that people who can afford shotguns costing over $1,000 are very nice people.

If I had a complaint, it would be that nobody has ever given me an expensive shotgun, so there's obviously an absence of charity.

But seriously, I did learn that the serviceable and low-end guns might have a breakdown faster than a more expensive gun due to machining quality I guess. (correct me if I'm wrong).

If I bought a gun like I see in the glass cases, in the $4,000 to $7500 range, I would probably never even shoot it. I'd let it sit there and love it. Wouldn't it feel good to be so rich I could buy a dozen of them, then invite my friends to come shoot them all with me? Yep. I'd build my very own private shooting range too.

But why build my own range on acres of land, when I can just shoot in the forest? (I do shoot in the forest, actually!)

If I was rich, I'd hire a team of gunsmiths, and keep them working full time just building my own guns. Then I would hire an expensive WEBSITE BUILDER and have my own website forums to discuss everything.

However, I wouldn't judge the man by the gun he shoots. I would only judge a man by whether or not he's shootin' AT ME!

johnbt
February 14, 2008, 11:05 AM
Why stop at $30k, let's move straight to the top. :)

Check out www.fabbri.it

The last time I looked their guns, the few they make a year, ran $100k to $250k each.

"Every single part of the shotgun is designed and produced in house, from the smallest screw to the barrels, actions and everything else, using only the very best materials available today, optimized by specific vacuum heat-treatments."

http://www.fabbri.it/StevenSpielberg.jpg
"Steven Spielberg shooting one of his Fabbri shotguns with the Jurassik park engraving."

johnbt
February 14, 2008, 11:10 AM
For about $2500 you can get a Guerini Woodlander O/U, their entry-level field gun. Mine is a 28 ga.

www.gueriniusa.com

Oops, I see the price is now $2850.

John

Disclaimer: My father bought it a few years ago when he was 83. He gave it to me last year (along with all of his guns) when I moved my folks to nursing/assisted living. I'm thinking I'd like a Guerini Summit Limited sporting gun for about $4k.

Buzzcook
February 14, 2008, 05:17 PM
The question isn't whether the old grizzled guy shoots his rusty winchester better than the dude with the expensive gun.
The question is whether the old grizzled guy shoots better with the rusty winchester or the expensive shotgun.

I started shooting with a Montgomery Ward 20 gauge pump, I still own it. I did pretty good with it even placing near the top in competitions. (oh to have those young eyes again).
I wasn't getting beat by old guys with rusty Winchesters I was being beat by old guys with nice looking doubles and pumps.
One of those old guys was nice enough to let me try his Browning. It was an eye opening experience.

Do the same thing. Shoot lots of clay with your shotgun, then try a few rounds with a nice double. I'm betting you'll see a difference.

wncchester
February 14, 2008, 06:08 PM
Homely guns, like homely women, may well work just as well as pretty ones. Some men just don't much care about looks while others do. But the well made, good looking ones are more expensive in either case.

I have one old but very pretty shotgun and one woman who was, in our distant youth, right good looking too. Both the gun and gal are showing signs of some honest wear now - so am I - but I still love both and have lots of nice memories of long-gone days.

Moral: Work to acquire what satisfies YOU, not someone else.

kawasakifreak77
February 14, 2008, 10:32 PM
I'm just a simple country boy but here's my thoughts. I've never understood then expensive shotgun thing either (or any other gun for that matter) My most expensive firearm is my k-38 combat masterpiece I just bought which was $350 said & done. Shotguns are for one thing to me, putting food on the table. I could never bring myself to taking a pricey gun into the woods & dropping it in a mudhole or scratching it, etc. I have two scatter guns, a 20 gauge single that's so worn out you can't read the name on the barrel, the fore grip is held by duct tape & at one time someone tried to refinish the wood very poorly. My dad gave me a long time ago & taught me to make that one shell count. Of course all my buds poke me about the 'ole thing but hey, I've killed everything from rabbits to small deer with it. My newest is a NEF 10 gauge that I bought for a whopping c-note & I like it because it blows big holes in things & can reach farther than my friend's beretta suprema with a super-duper choke that hangs out the barrel half a foot. I know people use shotguns for many other uses but in the end doesn't just shot or maybe a slug come outta the end?

akr
February 14, 2008, 10:44 PM
The guys with the expensive shotguns do a lot of shotgun sports, and they have to have a gun that will handle well and last for many thousands and thousands of rounds.

akr
February 14, 2008, 10:47 PM
johnbt---

You mean that liberal Steven Spielberg shoots? LOL. You know he's for Obama or Clinton. LOL

Picher
February 15, 2008, 07:02 AM
Shotguns, to me, have to be an extension of my body, whether shooting clays or birds in the field, they need to come up perfectly each time. I don't particularly care whether the gun costs $100 or $10,000, if it shoots well, I'll want one.

I just decide not to mount any shotgun that I don't want to pay for. It's simple as that. Two years ago, I picked up a Franchi 20 O/U and my hands stuck to it like it was covered with super glue. It had to go home with me. Fortunately, I got it for under $800.

At a recent gun show, I made it a point to NOT pick up a really nice 20 gauge Winchester 101. But tomorrow, there's another gun show.......

Picher

YukonKid
February 15, 2008, 12:03 PM
This question applies to cars and trucks as well.

I would love to get a Lambo, but i cant mud with it or pull a trailor with my toys on it. Maybe someday i will get one though, just for fun :) A geo would get me somewhere to, but not nearly the same way.

I love all my shotguns from 300-1200 they are all fun, but there is no doubt that my Citori is better for skeet then my 870. The 870 with its 18 inch barrel and 8 round mag is better for messng around.

YK

JWT
February 15, 2008, 12:09 PM
With the Euro getting higher vs. the dollar the expensive European guns like Perazzi and Kreighoff are only going to increase in price. That should make the Brownings, manufactured in Japan, look more attractive for shotgunners wanting the expensive toys.

PT111
February 15, 2008, 04:50 PM
All I have to say is that you fella's shooting 25,000+ rounds a year at trap and skeet are already out of my financial range with just the cost of ammo, targets etc. More power to you, guess I'll just stick to my 870 and 1100 shooting doves and deer.

castnblast
February 16, 2008, 09:43 PM
uhhh, yeah, quick math puts that at over $125,000.00 + tax on just the ammo...Don't know about the targets, if he's shooting at a club, than that's right at about $250,000.00/yr on targets and ammo, and that's the "cheap" $4.50 ish/ box stuff...(which I doubt someone like that is shooting in the first place...):eek: I'd love to be that guy....:D

akr
February 16, 2008, 09:46 PM
When you are just a gun fondler, all it costs is the price of the gun. :eek:

Rembrandt
February 16, 2008, 10:11 PM
uhhh, yeah, quick math puts that at over $125,000.00 + tax on just the ammo...Don't know about the targets, if he's shooting at a club, than that's right at about $250,000.00/yr on targets and ammo, and that's the "cheap" $4.50 ish/ box stuff...(which I doubt someone like that is shooting in the first place...) I'd love to be that guy....

Are you figuring the cost on shooting 25,000 rounds? If so, your math is a little off. I don't think they are referring to 25,000 rounds of trap or skeet...rather "25,000 rounds of ammo".

25,000 rounds of ammo divided by 25 shots per round would equal 1000 rounds of shooting.

1000 rounds of shooting = 1000 boxes of ammo (@ $4.50) would be $4500.00
1000 rounds of shooting @ $3.50 (targets & range fee) would be $3500.00
Total cost to shoot 25,000 rounds of ammo.......$8000.00

Frank Ettin
February 16, 2008, 10:26 PM
castnblast, I think you're over estimating the cost by a large margin. I read PT111's reference to 25,000 rounds to mean that number of shells/targets, not 25,000 "rounds" of 25 targets each. Most serious competitors will shoot between 20,000 and 40,000 targets a year, and some may shoot even more; but I can't imagine even the most dedicated shooters racking up over 600,000 targets in a year.

Our club charges members $5.00 for 25 trap targets, and non-members pay $7.00. Entry fees for competitions run higher. But assuming an average cost of $10.00 for 25 targets, 25,000 targets would cost $10,000. Factory shells at $7.00 for a box of 25 would add up to another $7,000. Of course, many shooters reload, and good deals on target shells in quantity can often be found (Most recently I bought 7,500 shells, or 300 boxes, for a little under $5.00 a box).

It's not a cheap hobby, but the cost is a long way from your $250,000/year estimate.

ActivShootr
February 17, 2008, 09:54 AM
1000 rounds of shooting = 1000 boxes of ammo (@ $4.50) would be $4500.00
1000 rounds of shooting @ $3.50 (targets & range fee) would be $3500.00
Total cost to shoot 25,000 rounds of ammo.......$8000.00

The look on your CPA's face...priceless.

Davis
February 17, 2008, 03:38 PM
"If you have to ask....I'd guess you can't afford anything better. Be happy with what you have, leave quality firearms to people who appreciate them."

That alone is a pretty elitist, snobbish attitude that turns me off, and probably a great many people. It is arrogant and frankly, I probably would not enjoy shooting anywhere near a man with that attitude. I have owned expensive firearms. My most expensive was $4,500 sniper's rifle. They don't do anything for me. Now, my most expensive firearm is an SVT-40.

My most expensive shotgun is a Savage 333 O/U made by Valmet. I see no value in a more expensive shotgun. Can I appreciate art? Sure. Come and look at my sword collection (I do not own replicas). You might really enjoy holding my French cuirassier's sword, or perhaps my basket-hilted broad sword from the 1700's. We could go with my one blade from the 1600's, or my several British cavalry swords from the 1700's to the 1800's. I have a particularly nice, if utilitarian, cutlass carried by the British navy and some nice spadroons of the same era. I know folks who collect bayonets, which is certainly something done by folks who cannot afford real swords, right? After all, if you can't afford the real thing, you buy a bayonet. Of course, this is not the case. And if a man cannot afford a British heavy cavalry sabre, I will not insult him for his lack of means. To do so is astounding arrogance.

However, I do not have an interest in shooting sports like skeet or trap. I hunt. Ducks, geese, rabbit, and the like do not care that my Savage 333 (or Savage 720 or Western Field 550) is a field gun and while attractive with good walnut and fits me like a glove, cost me less than $1,000. So, for me, I have no use nor need for expensive shotguns. I can afford them, but I have no use. And no, they are not Lambroginis compared to Yugos. They are perhaps a Rolls Royce compared to a Crown Victoria, but in the end, the extra cost buys the purchaser fancy wood, excellent stock-to-metal fit, deep bluing, fine engraving, excellent checkering, and the like. The extra money does not buy greater function.

The higher expense does bring bragging rights, but these are not tools for the duck blind and so do not interest me. See, my Cherokee takes me off road in every place that a Land Rover might go, except I actually take it those places.

By the way, I have a client who has a wall full of skeet trophies, who hunts in Argentina, who owns his own private skeet range (a real range, not just a pasture). He is a very wealthy man with a tremendous amount of acreage to his name. He shoots with a Remington 1100. He could write a check any day of the week for something more expensive. Interestingly enough, he competes with said Remington.

In any case, it is true there is reverse elitism. I know folks who are that way. But it is equally true that a man who has to compare his shotgun to a porche, and another man's to a yugo, is being a snob.

Davis

Rembrandt
February 17, 2008, 04:18 PM
"If you have to ask....I'd guess you can't afford anything better. Be happy with what you have, leave quality firearms to people who appreciate them."

That alone is a pretty elitist, snobbish attitude that turns me off...

It was a tongue in cheek response to a post deriding those who spent more than he thought they should for a shotgun.....inpart using the old saying...."If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it"? No need to read more into it than there is. Folks who buy upper end shotguns know why they cost more....those who don't only see a price tag.

Davis
February 17, 2008, 04:33 PM
Okay, fair enough.

On the other hand, I do know why some cost more (but there is a point where you pay more for the name). I do understand the man hours that go into certain shotguns (or other consumer items). I do not value them. That others do is certainly fine. However, we can admit that once a certain level is passed, there is no utility gained by higher prices. It is indeed truth that a Krieghoff cannot kill ducks any better than a Valmet 412. Therefore, if a man's focus is to hunt ducks, the Mossberg 500 may actually fit the bill, whatever the price.

Get into competition, things are different. However, can anyone imagine an over/under with a birch stock, even if birch is a superior wood for shooting?

Davis

SR420
February 17, 2008, 04:54 PM
Why do folks with "cheap" shotguns feel a need to bash those with a gun worth more than there gun.
I can not remember a post that is titled "Why would you by a cheap shotgun?"Yep ~ :D

akr
February 17, 2008, 10:34 PM
Lessee now--a nice skeep gun and probably a nice trat gun.

TexasSeaRay
February 17, 2008, 10:48 PM
You called me on a comment I made, and I replied. What do you do for a living?

Well, let's see.

When I was in the service, I wore funny clothes, had webbed feet and went places all over the world. Didn't see too many Jeeps period, let alone Cherokees, in some of the remote parts of north Africa.

Saw a lot of Land Rovers, though.

Didn't see a lot of Jeeps in southeast Asia, Middle East or Central/South America. Did see a lot of old Chevy and Ford 4x4's. Oh, and a lot of Land Rovers.

When I was toting a gold badge with an eagle on it and spending time in Thailand, Laos, etc etc in some of the most inhospitable terrain imaginable, didn't see many Jeeps. In fact, can't recall seeing even one.

Saw a lot of Land Rovers.

When I was in advertising and right up until I retired, I saw a lot of Jeeps--in the parking garages.

I'm also a pilot. When I go see friends up in "bush country" (Northwest part of the continent), I don't see too many Bonanzas--or any low-wing planes, for that matter. See a lot of Cessnas and Piper high-wing taildraggers.

Just like when I carried a gun for a living, I didn't see too many $10,000 guns out there in the jungles and deserts. Saw a lot of cheap AKs, though.

To paraphrase Forrest Gump's mama, "Rugged is as Rugged does."

But those are just observations based on what I did for a living. And as we all know, on the internet, firsthand knowledge (as in, been there/done that) doesn't count for much.

Jeff

Davis
February 18, 2008, 07:01 AM
Doesn't at all matter. Imagine that, Land Rover being used in former British colonies. Yukon, I don't care what magazines you read, what playthings you have, what your friends drive, what games/competition you play. Sports may be your life, but off-road work is mine. None of that matters, though.

But, let's see, I cannot possibly know of what I speak. 13 years experience in the field is meaningless. Leave it at that.

Worry not, I shall avoid making any comment about shotguns because I do not shoot skeet, trap, or clays. Hunting ducks, rabbit, and turkey make me unsuitable. I shall also refrain from discussing off-road travel. Being a professional is meaningless. That the US Forest Service was one of the largest purchasers of the Cherokee is meaningless. That I work off road for a living is meaningless.

I am indeed wrong, I cannot know of what I speak. Glad we figured that out.

castnblast
February 18, 2008, 10:49 AM
uhhhh...yup...math's way off...I was wondering how on earth anyone could do that...I figured that on 25,000.00 boxes...my goof...I don't think even Tom Knapp shoots that much:eek:. I think the noodle would get a bit rattled shooting that much a year.:eek: It was late, and just got finished working on homework for my masters...in accounting...LOL!!! (just kidding...on the accounting part...)

Laz
February 18, 2008, 11:33 AM
You know, it seems to me that Davis, YukonKid, and TexasSeaRay have all had a range of fascinating adventures in their respective lives and each know a lot about the world they have inhabited. One holds the trunk of the elephant, one pats the belly, and one grabs the tail. I can't see there is any "wrong" here. Seems all three have reason to be grateful for the rich and varied lives they have been graced to enjoy.

oletymer
February 18, 2008, 12:28 PM
Land Rovers and Jeeps, Yeah that has a lot to do about the origina thread. Why don't you Einstein types go over to Motor Trend or something?

Davis
February 18, 2008, 12:40 PM
Actually, ole, my original comment had but one sentence dealing with said Cherokee. My point had been fundamentally that after one reaches a certain point, functionality of a shotgun does not increase with increased price. A work of art, perhaps, but it does not make it a more suitable shotgun.

Indeed, the point is that nobody sells over/under shotguns with birch stocks, even though birch is a superior wood for guns. That birch does not have the attractive grain makes it a utilitarian wood and is not very pretty is why o/u shotguns do not use it. Why would one choose a wood that is actually inferior? Because walnut is traditional, it is easily worked, is very handsome, and works quite well as a gun stock. It isn't the best, but it is the best looking. Works of art, works of art.

That can appeal to a great many. That is certainly fine by me. I have a wonderful spadroon with fine gilt inlay and a temper that is remarkable. Said sword has no value today other than appreciation for the craft used in making it. It was a real sword meant for real combat. It was not the bobble that hangs at the sides of officers and nco's while in parades or other dress occaisions. It was meant to kill. There were other swords just as capable but less pretty.

You see, every man has what he values and such value seldom is fully and directly related to utility. I value my Cherokee because it can take me everywhere the Landrover can go. It is light and has a very tight turning radius. I can get in and out of many places and I have indeed literally fought a forest fire with it, while also going through swamps. Just this morning I crossed a flooded ford with it. Water was being pushed over the hood (not snorkling depth, though) but it passed through just fine - and back again. It can go places many heavier trucks cannot. I value it, even though as is plainly demonstrated here, there are no bragging rights with a Cherokee.

The same is said of the over/under. I defy anyone to show an over/under stronger than the Valmet. Yet there are many here who might show something prettier. Said Valmet fits me wonderfully and kills ducks and geese with the best of them, and it is only a 2 3/4" chambering. I see no value in the expensive work of art that is not at home in my duck blind or walking through the bottomlands of mid-Mississippi on a rabbit hunt. It is a tool.

I spent a mere sentence on said Jeep. Yet, the Jeep demonstrates experience and knowledge. The same can be said of the Valmet or Savage 720, or even the Western Field which is a deluxe version of the Mossberg 500. Shall I say they are better? Not at all, nor have I. But, I did say, and still do say, that a duck dies no better under the loving taps of a Kreighoff or Browning than my Valmet. Because of that, I have no use for either of them.

Yet, I buy expensive historic swords. To each his own.

Davis

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 01:59 PM
i dont see anything about shotguns in your post ole ;) sounds like you are just commenting for the heck of it. I am a member of several off roading forums
as well as Jeep, Landrover and Chevy forums as well :eek: so i already got that covered.

As far as shotguns go, i believe that a cheap one will last a while, but there is a reason why it is cheap. They do not function as smoothly, or be as accurate as a rule (much like rifles) and will not point and swing as easily. So yes, they will work, and i have several cheap shotguns, but i also have some very expensive ones as well which work better for different things. I know for sure the action on a Citori Grade whatever will be much better then the action on a Remington Spartan. Its just the way it is. If you dont agree then go to a store where fine weapons are sold (cabelas) and see if you can feel the difference between a cheapo mess around gun and a fine tuned machine.

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 02:03 PM
Way to keep the peace Laz, thank you for bringing me back around, although i knew it was stupid the whole time to be arguing this on a gun forum with people that obviously know guns better than 4x4's.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 02:43 PM
"arguing this on a gun forum with people that obviously know guns better than 4x4's"

Dude, leave it be. Graduate college, get your law degree, and enjoy life. You started this by latching on to a single sentence. That I have been driving off road professionally longer than you have been driving, period, should be of no concern to you. I drive the distance with a stock Cherokee, and have done so for more than 10 years now. Reality is what it is.

As to higher cost bringing greater accuracy, that is not always the case and you know it. In rifles, a Savage 110 that costs $300 will likely outshoot the Weatherby Vanguard that costs $450. (Guntests actually tested the Savage versus the Remington 700 and Winchester 70 5 years back and showed the Savage was the more accurate rifle).

But in truth, the Browning will be a better shotgun than the Russian or Turkish fare. It will not be better than the Valmet, though, even if the checkering is nicer. In any case, there is more to the o/u love than merely utility, else there would be birch-stocked o/u shotguns and the Turks, which are mostly fluff, would not be so popular.

Davis

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 02:53 PM
Ok, I am letting it be. You are right, i did start this and i know i should not have. You being older does not in any way, shape or form make you better driver than me. Just throwing that in, if that was the case old people would not have their licenses take away ;) Maybe one day we will see each other on the trail. From now on when i see a forest service man i will ask him is Davis :)
As far as rifles, i was meaning more of and Ed Brown quality weapon verses a run of the mill Remington 700. I know that there is always a reason why things cost the way they do, sometimes its just economics, but sometimes it because they are worth it. Like a Rolls vs. a Lexus. Both are quality cars. One is better than the other.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 03:12 PM
If you need to talk with a Forest Service man, well, I'm a consultant. I suppose the similarity would be a public defender.

That said, fair enough. We may have passed on the trail from time to time, as I have logged many, many miles on many trails. I also prefer the external frame pack, but have been told I have not idea what I am talking about. So, I'm pretty used to it (external frame packs start off lighter, sit off the back a bit and so keep sweat from building up, and allow much better and more secure external attachment of gear, and mine fits me like a glove, so much so that my shoulder straps serve only to keep the pack from falling backwards, all the weight (okay, 80% of felt weight) is on my hips). I also consider the best mess kit ever invented to be the East German kit. I like Danner and Columbia boots, but can hike in Walmart specials without pain (the trick is to soak them and then wear them wet for an afternoon so that they form to the feet).

In any case, while age does not necessarily make the better driver, doing it day in and day out for more than a decade does provide experience. All the same, it can be left as a difference in opinion and that is that. Truce.

Davis

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 03:26 PM
I dont know how we started talking about backpacking but ok. I like Kelty internal frames. It keeps the weight centered on my hips better. The last time i was backpacking it was last winter in New Zealand (their summer) at the bottom of the southern island, the Routburn Track. It was a lot of fun. I dont mind boot make as long as they have vibrum soles.

And the Ithica 37 will out perform the mossy 500. There is a reason there is a 300 dollar price difference. Just like all other guns. Reasons why glocks cost less then sigs ect.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 04:55 PM
I'm not a Glock fan, but the SIG and Glock perform about the same. And, the CZ-75 is cheaper than either but performs as well, too. Indeed, the CZ-75 is proof that you do not always get what you pay for. Or, does anyone really think the Sig 226 is twice the gun the CZ-75 is?

By the way, mine is a Kelty external.

As to the Ithica, how exactly will it out-perform the Mossberg?

Davis

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 05:08 PM
wow, now we argue over handguns in a shotgun forum :rolleyes::)

I have a Sig 226 and an HK USP, they are my only two centerfire autos (lots of revolvers though :D) When i buy my guns i like to buy the best. No, i dont think that Sig is twice the gun that CZ is, but i shoot it better than i shoot CZ's and i think it looks better. When i get a 1911 i will most likely get an Ed Brown/nighthalk/Wilson/Baer because i think they are the best available. You get what you pay for.

The model 37 is a great gun. I have one and an 870 for the pump part of my collection (model 12 now on loan). The mossy left. It could not compete with the others, so it was cut from the team. It was slower, not nearly refined enough and was not as smooth as the others.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 07:43 PM
"You get what you pay for."

Not nearly as often as you think. The CZ-75, the Savage 110, the Nikon Monarch, are all examples of products that are cheaper but better than contemporaries. The Nikon Monarch is better than Leupolds that cost $100 more, the CZ is almost universally regarded as one of the best 9mm service pistols ever made yet is cheaper than the Glock, H&K, and SIG. The Savage 110 is regularly more accurate than the Weatherby Vanguard.

The SVD Dragunov, Chinese version, will set you back $2,500 if you buy the 308 version. $4,000 for 7.62x54R. You suppose you'll get superb fit and finish and, more importantly, accuracy for that price? A Finnish Lahti will set you back $1,000. You suppose that will buy you the most accurate, most reliable 9mm made? Which do you think will be more reliable, a Glock or a German Luger?

A Shiki-Kenjo Type 94 pistol will cost more than your H&K yet is dangerous to carry loaded, even with safety on.

I could go on.

Davis

jhansman
February 18, 2008, 08:42 PM
And just to keep things lively, I'll chime in and say that my Lee reloading gear creates ammo as good or better than the 'green' or 'blue' does, and at far less cost. The .223 ammo I product with the Lee Collet die groups regularly at .500" out of my Savage Model 12, but I've had to endure plenty of grief from users of other makes, with the same 'ignorance is bliss' nonsense, most of whom cannot believe ammo made with Lee gear can do that. I show them my targets, and they just stand there and blink. Kinda funny, actually.

So, if I'm getting what I pay for, I'm grateful! :)

BTW, I want a Rem 870....

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 08:45 PM
Glock vs. Luger? That is stupid though, they arn't even comparable. Glocks and Sigs are. So are 686 vs. GP100's and 870's vs. 500's

My old M1A was far more accurate and reliable than my mini 14. It cost about 300 bucks more and it was worth it to me.

I have no issues with CZ's, i know they are good weapons, but have you ever owned a Sig? or and HK? There is a reason why they cost as much as they do, just like nice shotguns cost more then cheapos.

I see it in trucks/guns/dirtbikes/computors/girls :cool: you get for the most part what you put in. We have already discussed my off roading machines, i went over it, and i have more than 9,000 dollars worth of equipment on a jeep that already cost me 22,000. It is quite possibly the most capable off roading machine in my county. I get out of it what i put into it.

Sure, i could buy a hi point pistol or charles daley shotty....but i wont because i think you get what you pay for.

YK

johnbt
February 18, 2008, 08:46 PM
"but it does not make it a more suitable shotgun."

Wouldn't that depend on what suits me?

FWIW, there is a small hunt club on the Outer Banks and the gentleman, from time to time, take their small boats out in Albemarle Sound armed with beautiful old SxS Parkers, etc. I have their pics in a magazine around here somewhere.

John

P.S. - I surf fished the Outer Banks for 14 years using a 1986 Subaru GL wagon and drove around more than one stuck stock Cherokee, among other brands. My stock wagon came with skid plates, armored exhaust, dual-range 5-speed, 3-position rear shocks and tires just wide enough (at 15 psi) to float the light car over the deep powdery sand that sank some of the heavier vehicles up to their axles. Oh well, whatever works, works.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 09:23 PM
"Glock vs. Luger? That is stupid though, they arn't even comparable."

What, you mean a striker-fired 9mm semi-automatic service pistol manufactured in Austria? Or do you mean because one is a newer design? That the Luger will cost considerably more means, then, that you don't get what you pay for if its old? Okay, fine by me. It seems you get what you pay for rules are subjective.

I have indeed owned a Sig, a 220, and a West German one at that. I still own the CZ. Compare the reliability and accuracy between the CZ P01 and the SIG 228? Now compare price. Sure, you get what you pay for.

What about the Dragunov? It's newer than your M1A (you got it real cheap, if it cost you a mere $800, or you paid way too much for your Mini). Check out the fine backed-on enamel finish on that Drag. And accuracy? Yep, $4,000 worth of accuracy...but wait, nah, it can't shoot as accurately as a Savage. You get what you pay for?

How about the Romanian PSL? What about the Leupold compared with the Monarch?

For that matter, the M1a can't shoot as accurately as a Savage, bone stock, and even when you compare the most accurate M1a to the most accurate Savage...

"Wouldn't that depend on what suits me?"

Sure, it does. Tell me, how does a fancy burled walnut stock increase the usefulness of a shotgun? It is, of course, less strong than a birch stock would be. That you place value on the quality of the wood, the finish, the engraving, is certainly fine. But come now, to thine own self be true. Such enhancements increase price but not functionality.

As to the Subaru, they make good cars. But you would have floated away if you had followed me today. And you would have also bottomed out over the stumps I have driven. But that's fine. I'm not going to bash another guy's car. I never did.

Davis

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 09:34 PM
ha, back to car bashing. I dont suppose either of you know enough about cars to know what beadlocks are do you? Well they are a kind of wheel. If your a serious wheeler then you should have a pair. and your jeep has less than 10 inches of ground clearance, thats not anything to brag about.

Now, back to guns....:)

I believe oak is harder than birch isn't it? Why not go with that, it looks great to. As far as handguns go, i guess there is a lot of preference, but i know a Glock trigger is not as good as a Brown trigger. I know its not as accurate either. Not in my hands anyhow, and i have shot them side by side. I really wanted to like glock, they are cheap.But i didnt like them, hence HK and Sig.

Compare Glock to HK. Compare Lugers to P-35 (Browning HP's)

You dont think an M1A can shoot as well as a savage? wow dude. You need to go to more matches and see if people are shooting M1A's or savages.

Frank Ettin
February 18, 2008, 09:38 PM
Yukon and Davis, just for the record, I've decided that I don't care what either of you like. I'll stick with my Perazzi at the trap range, and my Bernardelli SXS will no doubt continue to knock pheasants out of the air for me.

Continue ranting at each other if you wish. And I may be the only one here who finds it tiresome. But since you both seem to be enjoying spouting off your opinions, I thought that I'd let you know mine.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 09:48 PM
I care? If you are tired, then I suggest you stop reading the posts.

Yukon, try actually reading all posts. You've for some reason decided to make this personal, again. Don't you have homework to finish?

But then, that would not be polite to ask, would it?

As to oak, you really don't know firearms, do you? You try and put me down, but you really show your ignorance with that.

As to Glock, you may not be able to shoot them, but strangely enough they are used by more competitors than H&K. You advise me to stick to eras? Fine by me. Okay, compare the Hi Power to the Luger. The Luger was far more expensive and far less reliable than the Hi Power. But, of course, the Hi Power is WWII and the Luger is really from an earlier time. Okay, so compare the Luger with, say, the 1911. Which one cost more? Which one was more reliable? Still didn't get what they paid for, did they?

You still have ignored the rest. The fact remains that in firearms, the term "you get what you pay for" is meaningless. In some cases that is true. In many, many, many others it is not. Kid yourself all you want.

Why that is so hard for some folks, I don't understand. Yukon, you like modified vehicles. Okay, fine by me. Why the hell do you care what works for me? You don't like Glocks but do like H&K's. I'm fine by that. Why do you have a problem with my reasoned and experienced choices? Yet I can say what works for me and you have a problem with that. The fact still remains you are a college student in a relatively easy course of study preparing to get into law school. Your off road experience is much more limited to mine.

There are folks here who have competed in far more shotgun competitions than I. They have uses for shotguns that I do not. They may see the value in spending large sums for guns and even larger sums for ammo. I don't dismiss their needs nor desires. I say I have no use for the frills because I don't, because the frills do nothing to stop a rabbit's heart from beating. I do like the frills in a sword, which is in modern times a pretty useless weapon. So I accept in that observation that different folks like different things.

Davis

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 10:07 PM
Your right, i know nothing about oak on weapons, i just know its a hard wood and it looks pretty when its polished so i thought it might work, just a thought. Why wouldnt it.

I guess i was referring to eras, and i know that the HP was more reliable and cheaper, if it wasnt then it would not still be around today.

I am indeed a college student, and i know what works best for someone does not work best for others. If that was the case then there would be one car company and one gun company. I dont know what you are referring to as offroad, and i dont want to get into it. But if you want to see the kinds of things i have accomplished in my young and therefore worthless life look at the rubicon trail and see if you have the balls to do it in a stock car. I will save you the time, you cant. Its impossible.

Your right, law comes after OCS though, i want to serve my country first. As far as homework goes, our coaches make us go to study periods, so it was taken care of ages ago :D so i have more time to chat.

So you really believe that you dont get what you pay for?

Sorry fiddletown, those sound like nice shotguns. Did you get what you payed for?

this is going to get locked soon, sorry to OP, there is a lot of good info here though, if you ignore the bickering going on in the last few pages.

Davis
February 18, 2008, 10:25 PM
Fair enough.

Davis

ActivShootr
February 18, 2008, 10:51 PM
Guys, chill. I understand where both of you are comming from. I have driven stock vehicles and have built and driven heavily modified vehicles. Both serve the purpose for which they were designed. I have also used firearms from the custom-made to the mass produced.

I also understand that expensive guns and less expensive ones both fire a projectile(s) at a target. While the less expensive ones are more utilitarian in their form and function, the higher end arms are considered because they are sometimes custom made and fitted for a specific user.

While both firearm and vehicle serve the purpose for which they are designed, some perform better than others for a specific use. If you shoot good with a factory gun and shoot great with a custom one, then buy the custom. If a stock vehicle will convey you to your destination then use it. If the task at hand calls for a vehicle with modification, then modify your rig to the extent for which you need.

My point is this: If your stock Cherokee gets you up and down the fire roads or you trail rig gets you through the sledgehammer or if your 1100 fills your game bag or your K-80 shoots the best round of trap of your life; then get it, use it, and love it for what it is worth to you.

To each his own.

YukonKid
February 18, 2008, 11:22 PM
Johnson Valley...respect.

i think me and Davis have worked out our differences.

YK

johnbt
February 19, 2008, 08:45 AM
"Tell me, how does a fancy burled walnut stock increase the usefulness of a shotgun?"

If it feels good to me, and it looks good to me both in the field and at the cleaning bench, well, then I figure it has enhanced the overall experience, and that to me is useful.

As to how a good piece of walnut affects function, I think it does affect the handling characteristics and swing. It's all about wood density and the 'tiswood stocks seem to vary a great deal more than the walnut I've handled.

My black synthetic 1100 shoots okay, as does my old 870 Express with the genuine hardwood stock with painted on grain finish. OTOH, I can tell a difference in the way a gun balances when comparing an inexpensive hardwood stock and a good piece of walnut. Ever shoot one of the mahogony stocked 1100s? They balance a little different than the walnut or inexpensively stocked models too.

And what in the world does you driving over stumps have to do with my experience driving an old Subaru in the deep sand. I've about decided that all you want to do is make silly arguments. Try saying, "Well that's an interesting fact. I didn't know that."

John

johnbt
February 19, 2008, 08:51 AM
I still want a set of these McKay Brown guns. Or maybe I'd order them in O/U. I don't have quite enough money yet, but I'm getting there. I know, I'll get 2 O/U and 2 SxS. John

www.mckaybrown.com/Setof428guagesidebyside.html

ActivShootr
February 19, 2008, 09:08 AM
John, those are beautiful shotguns man. I bet they shoot just as good as they look. I had never heard of that manufacturer until now. Damn you. I want one now. :D

SR420
February 19, 2008, 09:19 AM
T.A.Sharps: Why Expensive Shotguns??

Why Inexpensive Shotguns???


I work to buy the best quality I can afford no matter what the product is - this has served me well.

On the rare occasion I did buy a cheaper version I regretted it and upgraded as soon as I could afford it.

Lessons learned.

Davis
February 19, 2008, 09:46 AM
John, you observed how many Cherokees you passed stuck in the sand...

I observed characteristics that would have swamped your Subaru...

Quid pro quo.

I noticed you failed, yourself, to make the comment "How interesting that his Cherokee is perched with kayaks on the banks of the Mississippi."

In any case, the horse is dead.

Davis

Frank Ettin
February 19, 2008, 11:19 AM
Yes Yukon, they are nice shotguns, thank you. And I do feel that I got what I paid for. They perform their assigned tasks well, and it gives me pleasure to use them. For me, that's what it's about.

John, I've often looked longingly at McKay Brown guns, and perhaps one day I'll indulge. For my part, I prefer his SXSs. There is just something about the smooth lines of a Scottish round action SXS that I find especially attractive.

Laz
February 19, 2008, 08:45 PM
This is a funny, maybe odd, thread but I've enjoyed reading it. I've never been rich and retired this past year. I'm still sorting out my cash flow and doing all right, but don't have a ton of money to spend. Consequently, to satisfy my renewed interest in double guns, I'm getting a basic Spartan hammerless coach gun and a 28" field gun with double triggers. My other shotguns are pump Winchesters and Remingtons and a couple of NEF single-shots. The best that I can gather from folks I've talked to and the reading I've done is that I have a pretty fair chance and getting durable, functioning guns that I can knock around with and enjoy. I don't mind the lack of "pretty" or the lack of Walnut. Birch and Beech are both perfectly good woods and harder and stronger than Walnut. I can't afford top dollar guns without sacrificing other things I don't want to sacrifice. Maybe if I get the "bug" real bad I'll make some changes and do what I have to do to buy "up". I drive a 2004 Jeep Wrangler and don't nearly put it through as much stress as some of you have indicated. So, I have neither high dollar shotguns, nor a high dollar ride, don't feel I can afford either, am perfectly happy with my choices (even when they don't turn out) and don't begrudge anyone the right to own a $50,000 ride or a $20,000 shotgun. It just don't matter much. By the way, I really admire some of the things you guys do and have done with your time. It's enjoyable to have you share them with us.

PT-92
February 19, 2008, 10:21 PM
Laz,

Great post!

-Cheers

Laz
February 19, 2008, 10:58 PM
Thanks, PT-92. Appreciated.

YukonKid
February 19, 2008, 11:00 PM
Yes, +1 to Laz's posts :D

I had fun anyhow :o

YK

YukonKid
February 20, 2008, 03:15 AM
By the way, i checked out those Mckay Brown shotguns, there is a two year build time.

johnbt
February 20, 2008, 11:30 AM
"don't begrudge anyone the right to own a $50,000 ride or a $20,000 shotgun"

Or even a $20k ride and a $50k shotgun. :)


Here's a new McKay Brown for sale in the U.S., but no pics, although a good pic easily trumps a logical argument.

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/listing/268

"Price: $105,000.00 (U.S.D.)
Additional Info: David McKay Brown Best O/U 28 gauge, 28" bbls, amazing engraving by Pedretti, game scene woodcock in flight, absolutly gorgeous wood, teague chokes, solid rib, LOP 15" DOH 2" DOC 1 1/2" CAST off 1/8" "

Laz
February 20, 2008, 12:18 PM
Or even a $20k ride and a $50k shotgun.

LOL, that, too. :D

skeeter1
February 21, 2008, 01:35 AM
"Homely guns, like homely women, may well work just as well as pretty ones. Some men just don't much care about looks while others do. But the well made, good looking ones are more expensive in either case.

I have one old but very pretty shotgun and one woman who was, in our distant youth, right good looking too. Both the gun and gal are showing signs of some honest wear now - so am I - but I still love both and have lots of nice memories of long-gone days.

Moral: Work to acquire what satisfies YOU, not someone else."

Those, my friend, are words of pure and absolute wisdom. Thank you for posting that!

runny214
March 4, 2008, 07:02 PM
Interesting thread.
I don't own one of the "expensive" guns, but would love to. For me it's not to show off or brag. I would like to just have it long enough to enjoy then hand it off to my son to enjoy for me.
Right now I have a Mossburg 835 and my son a Benelli Super Nova that he received for Christmas.
Just once I'd like something NICE just for me for no other reason than "because".
If it helps me shoot better, great. If not, oh well.

Hawg
March 4, 2008, 08:50 PM
Why expensive shotguns? If you've got the bucks to plunk down on one I think the question is why not?

chaser_2332
January 31, 2009, 11:28 PM
the best part of this whole thread is the guy able to shoot 3 shells out of a single shot as fast as the guy holding an auto:confused:

Frank Ettin
February 1, 2009, 12:22 AM
Is this still going on? Why? If I can afford my Perazzi (and one for my wife) and we like them, why do we have to justify them? No one actually needs one, and it you can't afford one, so what? You can probably do just fine, with practice with an 870. And if you don't think high priced shotguns are worth it, why should I care? My Italian O/Us and SxSs and my Spanish SxSs are worth it to me, and that's really what matters to me.

BTW, I was just at the Safari Club convention. This Fabbri costs more than I've ever spent on a car (my Mercedes included).

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/fiddletown_2006/SCI%202009/IMG_0390.jpg

In any case: De gustibus non est disputandum.

olddrum1
February 1, 2009, 02:27 AM
Asking what is the difference between a 300 dollar gun and a 3000 dollar gun is kinda lik asking whats the difference between a 10 dollar hooker and a 1000 dollar hooker. The first one gets the job done but the last one is sure easier to look at.

zippy13
February 1, 2009, 01:58 PM
Is this still going on? Why? If I can afford my Perazzi (and one for my wife) and we like them, why do we have to justify them? No one actually needs one, and it you can't afford one, so what?
I'm also a multi-Perazzi owner and I must disagree with fiddletown on this one. Too many folks are missing the point: Many comp shooters truly feel that they NEED their P-guns. Look at the results from the recent Olympic games, Perazzi shooters dominated the medal ceremonies. It has nothing to do with having a pretty gun, or conspicuous consumption. For the comp shooters, the Perazzi design and execution helps them win medals.
To the average shooter, if a Perazzi wasn't hallmarked it would be inconspicuous among other O/U guns. Brownings are shiny and bright, K-guns have their private parts exposed, and Perazzis are plain-Janes. Of course, if you want a prettied-up gun, the Perazzi folks will be happy to help you empty your wallet.
The differences between a $2,000-$5,000 entry level O/U and a $10,000-$15,000 comp gun may be too subtle for the average M-500 or R-870 once-a-year shooter to identify. How many of us can tell the difference between a drag racer set up for a 1/8-mile dash and one ready to run the quarter mile? It's the same with shotguns; but, rest assured, those in the driver's seat can tell the difference.

Death from Afar
February 1, 2009, 03:32 PM
Zippy, at long last someone in this really stupid argument has spoken sense.

THere are several reasons that people own expensive guns:

1/ Pride of ownership ( i.e impress your mates) - why on earth would anyone spend $20,000 on a shotgun? Well, much the same reason you would buy an aston marton car, which is capable of speeds that are not legal anywhere-you get pride of ownership

2/ They look nice. To use a very crude analogy, you can compare woman in much the same way, but all perform the same basic function! This may be a tad crass, so i will leave it there.

3/ At top levels they do make a difference- why do you think Anchutze dominates small bore? Expensive guns, and at the highest level they do make a difference. And I agree with what a poster said a while ago- shoot a sporting clays comp with a el cheapo baikal, and a Perazzi, and see which gun stops you experincing pain by the last stand

4/ For hunting, the more you pay the better you get. I am not going to take a $20,000 shotgun on the back of a truck nightshooting, nor am i going to sit in a pigeon blind with one either- but i would MUCH rather have a benelli than a cheapo turkish knock off when you are firing a case of shells in a few hours- there, quality does matter.

Frank Ettin
February 1, 2009, 09:10 PM
zippy, let me try to refine the analysis a little. It's true that most of serious and best competition shooters use one of the high end competition, break action guns: Perazzi, Kolar, a Beretta DT10, etc. It's not because they're pretty, because the guns used by the competition shooters tend to be plain. I suggest that there are three primary, and practical reasons for this.

[1] The guns are available with stocks made to custom dimensions. In wingshooting/clay target shooting, gun fit can be critical. The gun must be an extension of the shooter for the very best results. It must shoot where the shooter is looking. Yes, many people break a lot of clays or drop a lot of pheasants, with guns that are off the rack and that they've adapted to. But serious clay target competition is tough and close. Even if really good gun fit is only worth 1 or 2 targets out of a hundred, but that can be the difference between getting into a shoot off on one hand and going home early on the other. Last year at the California State Shoot (ATA Trap) the 16 yard championship was won with 400 straight (200 in the event and 200 in the shoot off). The guy who came in second broke 399. Sure an auto-loader can be fitted with a custom stock, and often is, but see [2] and [3].

[2] The better guns tend to work better as far as some of the little details are concern. The Perazzi's, etc., have, or can be set up for, excellent, cleanly breaking triggers. They tend to have fast lock times. These little details may make only a small difference. But as noted above, 1 target out of 400 can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd place. A serious competition shooter will want every edge.

[3] The best break action competition guns are mechanically very strong and reliable. The top clay target competitors shoot an awful lot, and their guns take a beating. It wouldn't be unusual for a competition shooter, between competition and practice to shoot 20,000, 30,000 or more targets in a year. Guns like Perazzis and Kolars are built well to stand up under that sort of use. A trap shooting buddy of mine was doing quite well with his properly set up Beretta 391, but it kept breaking. It was easy enough to repair, and he always had the parts and tools he needed with him; but it was a nuisance and negatively affected his concentration. He switched to a Perazzi MX14

But at the same time, there are plenty of guys who are doing quite well with their 391s fitted out at substantially less cost than a basic Perazzi goes for. An most of us aren't competing at that level. We like our Perazzis, we appreciate their quality, and we bring home a buckle now and again. But I would say that having a gun at that level is critical to our game.

Jason R
February 1, 2009, 09:13 PM
I'm more than happy with the close to $1k purchases for my Benelli M1 and Benelli M3. I'm not into fancy looking trap / duck guns. Benelli is, hands down, the best "tactical" shotgun money can buy.

zippy13
February 1, 2009, 09:41 PM
A trap shooting buddy of mine was doing quite well with his properly set up Beretta 391, but it kept breaking. It was easy enough to repair, and he always had the parts and tools he needed with him; but it was a nuisance and negatively affected his concentration. He switched to a Perazzi MX14
Amen...
A comp gun satisfies your physical and mental requirements. Fiddletown, we're in the same boat, here. My initial rebuttal had to do with your opining that "No one actually needs one." LanceOregon just posted news of the recovery of Kim Rhode's medal winning Perazzi. I imagine, during its absence, Kim was feeling that she really needed her favorite Perazzi.

LanceOregon
February 1, 2009, 10:39 PM
Here are my two Beretta Deluxe Edition 390ST shotguns. The lower one is a standard Deluxe, while the other above it is a special Ducks Unlimited Edition. Both of these shotguns have far nicer stocks than current Beretta autoloaders. The figure in their wood is fantastic. And they both have nice engraving, with gold accents and gold plated inlays. Both the bolt and the follower on each gun are also beautifully jeweled.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/beretta_390s_email1.jpg


I paid $500 for the top gun at an estate sale, and $750 for the lower one purchased used from a dealer.

My advice is if you want to buy a real nice shotgun, shop around for a used one. Look hard and long enough, and you can find some excellent deals. Both of these used shotguns that I bought had been complete gun safe queens for their original owners. They were both in completely unfired condition when I purchased them, with absolutely no sign of any use or wear whatsoever.

I've shot the standard deluxe a number of times at the range, and even hunted pheasants with it once. But I have kept the Ducks Unlimited model in virgin condition.

Here are closeups of the receiver of each gun:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/ducks2.jpg


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/390deluxea.jpg


And here is a close up of the forearm of the standard deluxe, illustrating the high quality and beautiful figure in the wood. Again, current Beretta autoloaders, including their high grade deluxe models, simply don't look as great as these guns do.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/forearm.jpg

zippy13
February 2, 2009, 06:25 PM
I paid $500 for the top gun at an estate sale, and $750 for the lower one purchased used from a dealer.
Congratulations, you were at the right place at the right time. Typically, the DU guns are significantly upgraded from the standard issue. In addition to the prettied-up exterior, I'm assuming the action is as smooth as silk and trigger light and crisp.

inSight-NEO
February 3, 2009, 09:37 PM
Smoothbores aside, since Im not really into the whole "classic" or "collector" category of shottys, the only shotguns I would pay over $1000 for would be the Remington 870P MAX or the Benelli M4 (or possibly the Super 90). Personally, given the choice, Id probably go with the M4. Sure, its up there price wise, but it is one sweet slab of machinery! But, Im no hunter or collector, so only "HD" shottys hold my interest.

Shorthair
February 3, 2009, 11:40 PM
Asking what is the difference between a 300 dollar gun and a 3000 dollar gun is kinda lik asking whats the difference between a 10 dollar hooker and a 1000 dollar hooker. The first one gets the job done but the last one is sure easier to look at.
Oh, perfect! And you can bet there are a lot more reasons the $1000 hooker is better than the $10 hooker, you just can't post them here :D
I have a Winchester 1300 12 gauge that goes everywhere I go, it has it's own place in the back of my Suburban, a 1996 with a 454 and 200,000 miles. But when I hunt, I'd much rather take out my 26" Citori 20 gauge. I don't think it was expensive at $1400. I think anything over $5000 is expensive, especially if you're gonna beat it up in the field. It just handles better, is easier to carry on long jaunts in the grouse covers, and does almost everything that 12 does. And its a hell of a lot prettier.
So I use the Citori because I appreciate refinement, which is why I also drive a BMW 740iL when I'm not tearing up the back woods or beating through the snow in the dead of winter. I've driven both to Chicago, I'm from the Detroit area. The Suburban gets you there, its absolutely functional and better in certain conditions, but after 5 hours on the highway you're a bit beat, tired from the bumpy ride, want to rest more than enjoy the town. In the BMW, 100 mph feels like 70. In the Sub 70 mph feels like 100. The BMW gets you there refreshed, ready to party, in cool, elegant, refined comfort. That's enough reason for me.

inSight-NEO
February 3, 2009, 11:52 PM
I don't think it was expensive at $1400.

:eek:

oneounceload
February 4, 2009, 09:51 AM
My .02 - why expensive shotguns?? As mentioned for targets - reliability, etc.

But also from the aesthetics - To some folks, a blacklight velvet painting of Elvis in their living room is "art"; to others, it's the Mona Lisa.....to some, a plastic, matte-finish gun is no different than a claw hammer....to others, the artist's execution of bulino engraving that takes over 6 months to execute, with over 1,000,000 fine marks to make a photo-like scene is something to behold

Some folks like "furniture" bought from walmart; others prefer fine, custom-made stuff using real and exotic woods - something where the pride of craftsmanship takes precedence over the ability to crank them out at blazing speed

Some folks understand that and can appreciate it, some don't

Neither right or wrong - just a different perspective

Shorthair
February 4, 2009, 11:08 AM
inSight-NEO:
I can understand your shock. I'm not a pretentious guy, I don't spend money, for the most part I leave that up to the wife. :o I believe in getting value and that function is more important than form. And I take care of what I have.
I was raised in Detroit, poorer than dirt. But this grouse thing is something that I do with a passion. I came into some cash and decided to spend that amount of money for something I really love to do, for a piece of critical hardware that will last a lifetime if I take care of it, for a shotgun that felt like it belongs in my hands from the moment I picked it up - after trying many, many others. To me, it was worth it, and I've never - not once - regretted it.

Pilot
February 4, 2009, 12:00 PM
Why do some where a Rolex, Omega, Sinn or Breitling and others a Timex? They all tell time.

Shorthair,

Do you hunt with German Shorthaired Pointers? I do. :)

Shorthair
February 4, 2009, 12:26 PM
I do. I hunt with pointers probably because I get the same aesthetic reward I get from that little 20 gauge. These aren't the big, plodding, ponderous GSPs that seem so common, these are little speed demons, with class.
My current number one, Tustin, and the late, great Remington.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/tustinremy10-02.jpg
Tustin on point.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/tustin8-04a.jpg
Remington on a pheasant:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/REM1297B.jpg
A day's work - a nice shotgun and a gourmet meal:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/citoriphez10-02a.jpg

Waterengineer
February 4, 2009, 12:34 PM
Shorthair:

Those are some mighty fine GSP's you have there.

I get to Northwest OH and Southern MI for work occasionally.

Where do I have to hire on at to see those dogs work?

Walking the fields and watching the dogs work is my love!

Nigelcorn
February 4, 2009, 12:35 PM
A friend of mine came up with an answer to that very question over 40 years ago.

“There are ‘T’ shirt, Tennis shoe and Timex kinda guys and there are Rolex, Rolls Royce and Reebok kinda guys.

And just about everything in between .

I think it is funny to say that Reebok goes along with Rolex and Rolls Royce. I don't know many people who have a Rolls Royce that would wear a pair of Reeboks.

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add, I just thought that quote was funny.

Frank Ettin
February 4, 2009, 12:44 PM
Shorthair,

Those are beautiful dogs. We hunt over GSPs also. They aren't ours but belong to a dog handler we know who works out of the club we belong to; and they look much like yours -- lean, fast and classy. She's a fine trainer, and her dogs are a real treat to hunt over. They're enthusiastic and love to work. A day out in the field with those dogs is a special pleasure.

Shorthair
February 4, 2009, 01:16 PM
Thanks so much, guys. They are my joy, unfortunately I'm down to one, Tustin. I'll look to get a pup in winter of 09/10. Nothing like two pointers in the field.
I hunt in Northern Michigan for grouse, have a place near Cadillac. I also hunt in the thumb when I can't get north, waterengineer, so maybe next fall we can coordinate...
Here are a couple more of Tustin:
Day I brought him home. He had all the style of a Lipizzaner stallion from the start.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/tustin402sm-1.jpg
On point:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/tustin8-04b.jpg
More food:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/tustinandwoodcock09252005sm.jpg

hogdogs
February 4, 2009, 01:27 PM
The reason for nice fine guns is cuz the po'ass guys like me will never have one:o
Shorthair has made me also remember something along these same lines...
while you are not hunting, your gun eats nothing but your hunting dogs still need money poured in their bowl everyday...
At 20 bucks per 50 pounds I feed a middle road feed so figure $1500 per year for the hunting dog's feed...
Maybe I should rid myself of them so I can get a Perazzi or similar gun...
Brent

BigJimP
February 4, 2009, 01:53 PM
Hogdogs

For what its worth, I hope someday you will find yourself in a financial situation where you will be able to purchase whatever you want in terms of a sporting, hunting or competitive shotgun. If you want another 870, a Browing, a Perazzi or a Kolar or Krieghoff - it doesn't matter. But I hope its truly whatever you want.

I wasn't buying expensive guns, early in my career, or when I was still raising a family - some of that stuff takes time ....


Don't get rid of the dogs ...

zippy13
February 6, 2009, 07:52 PM
My friend, BigJim, raises a point that is seldom mentioned: Forum contributors share a common interest in shotguns; but, we have diverse backgrounds. Young or old, white collar or blue, student, working or retired, our shotgun budgets differ significantly.
Like BigJim, I'm a empty-nest grandfather. What seemed like an extravagance when you've got children to raise and a mortgage to pay may not seem so when the house is empty and paid off. I didn't start shooting competitively, or have comp guns until I was in my mid-40s. For several decades, my budget allowed me to shoot only informally, infrequently and with less than satisfactory guns. Most of the guys I shoot with are of similar circumstances.

Waterengineer
February 6, 2009, 09:15 PM
BigJim, Zippy:

Gentlemen, very elegently put.

To put it in my simpler, more direct language, with age comes more expensive guns. I mean we all need something to aspire to.

protectedbyglock
February 6, 2009, 09:28 PM
Those are some BEAUTIFUL pointers.
This is so weird. My dad had a german shorthaired pointer named "Duke" so many years ago. I used to ride him like a horse when I was a kid. My fiancee and I were just talking about them last night. She had never seen or heard of one before, so I looked up some pics for her. I haven't mentioned duke to anyone in probably 15yrs. I like my border collies a lot, and my golden retriever, but I may end up with a pointer again some day. They are BORN to be bird dogs. Unbelievable, really.

Sorry, off subject a bit.
As far as high-end, expensive shotguns go... I don't really know jack about them. I just can't imagine what is so much better about them than something around $1000 or so. I've held and shot a couple very nice shotguns (not crazy nice...that guy wouldn't let me shoot his :D) that I can honestly say I wanted but couldn't afford. I can certainly appreciate good quality, but $5k...$10k...$20k!!! At that price, in my book, you're either talking art, you make a living shooting comp, you're a rich olympic hopeful, or you're just filthy freakin' rich. I'm none of the above, unforunately, but I'd love to have a really nice used gun in the $1000 range someday if I really get back into trap like I was.

In my opinion, too, a car analogy doesn't quite work. For example, an Acura NSX gives you a hand-stiched leather, mid-engine race car vs a civic being a fuel efficient little commuter. A little easier to justify the 3-4x pricetag. I don't see one of those, we'll say $5,000 shotguns, being 22.5x the shotgun one of my Ithacas is. I just don't see it.
Both guns will go boom when you pull the trigger. Sure, you may have a better fitting stock. Maybe better internals and nicer wood and better barrel. Maybe it's not so hard on the shoulder. But is it 22.5x better? Really? With the extra $4800, I'll figure something out. :D
Heck, for $5k could I get a shotty hand built from scratch with my own name on it? I would call it "The Continental"....wait that's already taken (by a shotgun nonetheless, I just googled it). Ok then, I would just call it "Thunder Stick" :D

Waterengineer
February 6, 2009, 09:58 PM
Glock:

1. It's good we don't all like the same thing. Some guys like cars, some guns, some expensive women they can't have, some boats, some airplanes. We all make our choices and we all have our aethstetic. Personally, I like cars and guns - being an engineer it is sometimes about the technology. With you liking cars, I'm sure you get that.

2. GSP's are my favorite dog: They're smart, energetic, "birdy", and slobbery. Nothing like them in the field - I'm sure others will disagree. If I didn't travel as much as I do for work I would have another one.

3. Back to guns. Yep, they all go bang. Yep, it is fun to outshoot the "dandy" with the fancy gun. But, after spending a lifetime around outdoor things, and to stay on topic, guns, it is perhaps easier to understand and appreciate the history, aethetic and technology of the different guns.

Hopefully, for you, you will get to a place where there will be a contemporary Ithaca, an old Ithaca, a new Browning, an old Browning, a Parker, a Smith, a Stevens, a Merkel, a Purdy, a Grffin and Howe, a new Beretta and an old Beretta all laid out on the same table (for an example group.) And, also, perhaps there will be someone there to instruct, educate and help you understand.

Once you get into the more expensive guns, the differences become sublte, it is about the wood, it is about the craftsmanship, is it about the hand cut etching, it is about the hand cut checkering, it is about the different steels, it is about the differences in actions and it is about history. ANd, it is about the beauty.

Saying that one gun costs 22 times more than another then comparing a civic and an NSX is not fair.

A better comparison would be the crazy price of shotguns with the crazy price difference of a '78 corvette and a restored (better: an original) 1953 corvette - substantial price difference there. Or if you want to use contemporary cars what about the difference in price between a Civic and an Bentley Arnage. They will both get you there - but which one do you want to get there in?

In the end, it is about what you can appreciate, what you like or love, what you can responsibly afford and what create joy for you. Wouldn't the world be a boring place if we all liked the same thing.

protectedbyglock
February 7, 2009, 10:19 AM
I can appreciate history and art, I really can. My sister is an artist, and a good one. We made a trip together to the MOMA in San Francisco a couple years ago, and we argued a lot. We had a wonderful time, though.
By the way, Andy Warhol is a fraud.

I just don't understand where quality, art, and history stop and status begins. It's an age old question, I guess, and if you have the money.. more power to you. I don't see how it's any different than a lot of things. I saw a $1,000 golf club the other day, and it wasn't one of Jack Nicklaus' old clubs, either, just some nike titanium something or another. I'm sure it's a heck of a driver, and I hope the guy using it feels like tiger woods.

Beautiful, shiny new expensive shotguns, to me, fall into the same kind of category. The beauty and history of a brand new gun will only take me so far, usually to the point where I say "How much was that again, sir?"
I'd spend my money on a family trip to spain.

You're absolutely right, though, as far as how dull things would be if we all felt the same way. Same with cars. Honda S2000 vs. Porche Boxter. I'd take the S2000 hands down, any day of the week. But if nobody spent twice the money on a boxter, I'd have no fun at track day.

To each his own, though. Some people just have to think a little harder about where they spend their money than others do. I'm just a poor boy. :)

Shorthair
February 7, 2009, 11:13 AM
Thanks for the kind words on the dogs, guys. Protectedbyglock, since you mentioned your fiance, I'll assume that you're in your 20s. This isn't going to be a "you listen to me, whippersnapper" post, so don't take it that way.
I'm not wealthy by any means, and I got a whole lot poorer last year. I'm sure many of us did. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still appreciate the finer things in life. There's a reason those guns cost more, its because there's a market for them, and the market says they're worth it. There's a reason there's a MOMA, its because people value the art that hangs within. And that art didn't come free, someone spent a lot of money to donate it so people like you and your sis could go argue about its value.
I own and appreciate the utilitarian value of a basic pump shotgun, but it warms my soul to walk in the woods with a shotgun that points and fits like it was made for me and gives me something to look at when I have to give the dogs a breather.
I own rifles as well.
My custom Swedish Mauser:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/swede2008.jpg
Or my custom Savage 7 mag:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc63/gspdave45/savage110_7remmag_sm.jpg
I built both rifles. The Savage shoots 3 rounds into one hole at 100 yards. It is utterly utilitarian, (OK, it's butt ugly) and it wasn't expensive to buy or to customize. The Swede shoots into .75", and it took me well over a year to finish, and I put way more money into it than I should have. Both have killed their fair share of bucks. Can you tell me which one you think I get more pleasure sitting on stand with during deer season? I think you know....
Finally, if there really was no difference between an 870 Express and a $1500 Beretta or Citori, posters of Jessica Alba wouldn't outsell those of Rosie O'Donnell. Beauty has its own value, and if it works - and I'm thinking Jessica would work a whole lot better than Rosie for me - its worth it.

Waterengineer
February 7, 2009, 11:46 AM
Shorthair:

Nice Mauser!

Webologist
February 7, 2009, 03:54 PM
"Another point. At the trap club I used to frequent, some of the best shooters did not use the fancy shotguns. The best trap shooter at that club used an old, beat up, field grade, 870. He could outshoot the the guys with guns that cost more then a small sedan.

I do believe that some shotgunners think that an expensive, fancy firearm can make up for any short comings in skills."

I've seen this same thing and it really impressed me. I stopped by the traps after a day of shooting to watch. A very odd pair were shooting side by side alternately. One was a old grizzled guy with a plaid shirt and an old 870 with a canvas shotshell bag who hit everything he aimed at. I never saw a miss. His partner with a gorgeous Italian OU and all the best new gear money could buy rarely hit anything.

It impressed on me that a $150 gun in the hands of a master accustomed to it is infinitely better than a $2500 gun in the hands of an unskilled novice. It was a very nice lesson to see...

Regards,
Web

protectedbyglock
February 8, 2009, 01:48 PM
Web, isn't it awesome to see someone who is really good with a shotgun? I wish I had half the skills of some of these guys.
I've outshot a "dandy" (as waterengineer likes to call them- very funny, btw- I like to call them "fancylads" :D).
He had a silver and gold side by side (wish I knew what), and I had my beat up 37 (20ga). We shot 50 birds a piece. He only missed 2, but I didn't. I swear, he made me shoot much better than I normally would. All he said to me afterwords was this: "You shouldn't be shooting a 20ga, we're shooting 12s". The guy I was with seemed strangely upset that I beat him.
Somebody said he spent $12k on his gun. I doubt that, but who knows. I would have liked to shoot his gun, but he wouldn't let me touch it.

A little off topic, I guess, but when I was skiing one time, this old guy (who looked EXACTLY like Jerry Garcia) went FLYING past me on a snowboard. He was wearing sweatpants and a t-shirt, big gray beard wrapped around his neck like a scarf in the wind. He was absolutely tearing up the slopes, and showing up the younger guys with the expensive gear. One of the coolest things I've ever seen. And he wasn't just downhill boarding, he was catching every jump he could find on the way down.

Back to expensive shotguns. Like i said before, I'd spend $1k, maybe $1500 on a nice one. Not $25k. Some will, I won't. I just looked at a Merkel Rifle. Wow. That's my style! It's got a lion engraved on one side, and what looks like a water buffalo on the other. Maybe it would make me feel like Hemmingway if I owned it, who knows. It's certainly beautiful. Would I ever pay $12,500 for it? No. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. I also looked at one of those Merkel 303EV O/Us. $21,000!! Is it really worth that much to some people? Really? Wow!

I also find it hard to believe, that by spending $21,000 on a shotgun, you are somehow doing some great service to humanity like the people donating money and expensive art to museums. To me, theres a big difference and that's a pretty big leap.

It seems to me that just because there's a market for something, doesn't make it worth it, or worthy, or even sane. Look at longaberger baskets. What? To me, that's insanity.

BigJimP
February 8, 2009, 03:35 PM
Sometimes the package you see - isn't quite what it seems ...

I see guys with old beat up pump guns worth $200 that can shoot lights out / and guys with some $25,000 Krieghoff's that rarely miss a target at any clay target game. I see shooters with old pumps and fancy guns too - that can't hit their butt in the dark with either hand... It doesn't make the 870 a better or worse gun than the Krieghoff .... but the craftmanship in that Krieghoff is certainly worth at least a 2nd look.

Some of us may be a lot heavier than we were in our 20's / a little grayer / and lord knows we could see a target better before our eyes went to 20/350 ....or whatever took its toll ... but that doesn't mean some of us weren't all american athletes in the 50s' or 60's / or able to shoot lights out and compete with the big dogs at the time ....

I don't really care what gun you shoot - its about having a great time in the moment you're in now every time you pull a trigger on one of your guns - and regardless of what gun we shoot, most of us don't lose that competitive drive .... I don't care if I'm shooting for a coke at the end of the day / or for a nickel a round or against a guy with a pump, a Browning, a Perazzi or a Krieghoff - I still want to beat him for that coke, or that nickel ....

Stay in the moment - but appreciate good craftmanship as well - Kolar and Krieghoff - Perazzi - Blazer ( are some of the best ) / but I'm never ashamed to walk into any gun club in the country carrying one of my Browning O/U's or my Benelli Super Sport either. Be a competitor, be a cordial and easy person to be around and shoot with, shoot whatever you want - have a good time / stay in the moment. Be happy for someone that can afford a nice gun / if that's what they want .... and be happy for someone that shoots their pump gun well ....... and if they ask first, help a new shooter or someone who is struggling out a little. I'm not sure anything else matters too much. But I'm still going to buy that Krieghoff or Kolar in the next couple of years ... and it'll be worth every penny / because I'll enjoy every penny I spend on it and every time I shoot it ( just like I do on all my guns now ) - and I don't care if anyone else admires or even likes the gun - it'll be fit to suit me, with the options that I want...

freakintoguns
February 8, 2009, 04:18 PM
im perfectly happy with my Remingotn 870, my Springfield XD .45, my suburban and my S-10. and im sure the guys with 10K plus O/Us, rolls royces and range rovers, and custom (insert 1911 customizer name here) guns are perfectly happy with what they have. different strokes for different folks

Alert
February 8, 2009, 04:21 PM
why's everybody so caught up in budget stuff anyway? some of us are willing to shell out a little more to buy what we want instead of settling for Rugers

Ricklin
February 8, 2009, 04:59 PM
We haven't heard again from the OP in this thread since page 1:rolleyes::D

Smallgame2100
February 8, 2009, 10:41 PM
I dont have a problem with kick, so the guns feel fine to me. I get it for a 10th of what the expensive shotguns would cost. No complaints.

Just my humble opinion.

TheManHimself
February 8, 2009, 10:53 PM
To a lot of people, a fine firearm is a work of art. Where's the difference in a skeet shooter paying thousands for a handmade, beautifully finished and engraved shotgun, and an art collector paying thousands for an original piece from some long-dead master?

johnbt
February 9, 2009, 09:19 AM
The shotgun has a practical use.

Donations to a museum? Shrug.

Donations to soup kitchens? Two thumbs up.

Waterengineer
February 9, 2009, 09:36 AM
Glock:

Is a post above you say something about liking lions on guns.

Then you need to look here, but these aren't cheap!

http://www.kolararms.com/engraving.html

HammerOfThor
February 9, 2009, 09:53 AM
This thread has been beat to death but it irritates me when class envy rears it's ugly head.

Simple answer is that not everybody wants a Mossberg. :barf:

I love the arguement about the guy with the old rusty gun came and outshot the guy with the brand new fancy one.

Here's how it really works. The guy with the Mossberg who does fine bird hunting goes to the gun range to shoot sporting clays for the first time. He gets teamed up with some guys who shoot fancy guns. They proceed to school him through the whole shoot which he doesn't finish because his mossberg breaks.

I love expensive guns. in fact I just bought a $1100.00 Kimber. Last year I bought a $1800.00 custom AR for coyote hunting. Looking at more as soon as possible.

Lastly I've shot a lot. My whole life. And I've never seen the old man with the rusty shotgun story actually play out. I have seen the young smartass with a chip on his shoulder who can't afford better get schooled many times though.

protectedbyglock
February 9, 2009, 11:13 AM
Ohhh, man, Waterengineer....those are sweet. No doubt about it.
Makes me kind-of tingly inside. (shhhh, don't tell)

If I sold my Jeep, my Civic, My Toyota pickup...my 2 AR15s (One Colt), my XDs, my glocks, my stainless springfield 1911, all 3 of my Ithaca shotguns (and Winchesters, and Mossy .410 for the kid and fiancee), and my SKS and my Remington 700, my LCP, and my Browning A5..... plus some cash and my Ruger Stainless Target .22.... I could get the Kolar "Best"....(maybe).

Darn you rich people!! :D:D

I have also shot all my measly life, hammer. I grew up with an Ithaca in my hands from age 10. First day of summer, every year I'd dump all the books and stupid learnin' crap out of my bookbag and I'd fill it up with shotgun shells, fishing lures, a canteen, a little frying pan, a fork, and a stick of butter. I lived on the river. Grab the Ithaca and the old zebco 202. :D

I'm in my 20's now...watch out old men with 20k shottys!! :D

I could really care less what people buy with their money. I'm glad to see that people get enjoyment out of clay games and their prized posessions. Really, I am. I don't understand why anybody would spend $20k on a shotgun, but I'll chalk it up to MY ignorance. Maybe I'll understand when I go back to school to get my masters?
However, if I get out of school (again), and I still don't understand....then I'm calling a revolution. Maybe even a class war! :rolleyes:

And for the record.... Kimbers are soooooo overrated. :D

Alright... I'm going back to my Vonnegut book. At least he understand me.

HammerOfThor
February 9, 2009, 11:43 AM
And for the record.... Kimbers are soooooo overrated.

Sorry my young friend only experience will cure your young mind. You'll get there someday. :D

Waterengineer
February 9, 2009, 11:45 AM
Glock:

We are getting a little off track here but you write:

Alright... I'm going back to my Vonnegut book. At least he understand me.

KV is going to have trouble talking back considering he's dead.

Also, where did you get that KV quote in your signature? IMHO, that quote is decidedlyun-KV like.

protectedbyglock
February 9, 2009, 11:58 AM
No, the book. He doesn't have to speak back. I know he's dead. :(
It made my huge collection of first print hardcovers much more valuable!!

I can't remember exactly where that quote came from to tell you the truth. I think it was in an interview I read one time. He was joking about how unpopular you would be with the guys if you didn't know gun safety and accidently shot one of them. I can't find it at the moment, but it's out there.

oneounceload
February 9, 2009, 12:46 PM
Hey Glock - if you can't understand 20k for a gun, how about these then??

Only 170,000 for the pair:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Purdey-Rare-pair-20ga-light-weight-game-guns.cfm?gun_id=100051795

Now I just have to find my winning powerball ticket........

protectedbyglock
February 9, 2009, 01:39 PM
Ok, that's it.... I'm all in.
Here's everything above, plus my other guns and cars....and the keys to my house!! :eek:

zippy13
February 9, 2009, 01:44 PM
Glock...I'm in my 20's now...

....I don't understand why anybody would spend $20k on a shotgun
Give it another 20 years and you will. :)
(Assuming that a Mossy 500 isn't $20K in 20 years)

protectedbyglock
February 10, 2009, 10:22 AM
Maybe so, zippy....
Seems like a fitting end...
But I think it was John Fogerty who said "Someday never comes". :D
Only time will tell, I suppose.