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Cold Steel Man
February 3, 2008, 12:36 AM
Does anyone have any info on unmarked receivers on Remington Model 11's made between 1905 & 1910 ? Remington seems to be somewhat baffled, so I thought that I might ask here. You guys have forgotten more about shotguns than I will ever know, so here seems to be the place to ask. Here's the shotgun & pics of the receiver. Remington tells me that the stock is not from them, and it's pretty obvious that the recoil pad and sling swivels are home-done. Remington rep is still researching the mystery.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11FullViewR.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11RcvrLft.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11RcvrLftClose.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11RcvrRt.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11ForearmFigure.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11StockFigure.jpg

ar223
February 3, 2008, 12:56 AM
I'm pretty sure thats a browning a-5 check on the bottom of the reciver for a sn

Cold Steel Man
February 3, 2008, 01:21 AM
Serial # is 5-digit. Remington rep says it was made in 1910. If it was an A5 it wouldn't hurt my feelings any ... :D

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11SerialBlackedOut.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11BtmTang.jpg

ar223
February 3, 2008, 01:37 AM
well i checked on google and found out remington did make one but im asuming that it the same gun browning made (except for the mag cut off) and almost was a remington the whole time the things u learn on the internet

Bill DeShivs
February 3, 2008, 02:01 AM
The reason it has no markings is because they have been ground off in the refinishing process.

Cold Steel Man
February 3, 2008, 09:00 AM
I have considered that, however, there seems to be no thinning of the receiver from grinding nor any other abnormality besides the depression on the side. Also, I found one on gunbroker which also appears to be unmarked and has obviously not been refinished.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11GunbrokerNoMkgs1.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemMod11GunbrokerNoMkgs2.jpg

Bill DeShivs
February 3, 2008, 02:40 PM
Regardless, your gun has been very aggressively refinished.

Cold Steel Man
February 3, 2008, 05:55 PM
There is no doubt that it has indeed been refinished; I am sure that you are better able to speak to the aggressiveness of said refinish than am I. Respectfully, however, there remains the question of the unmarked receiver in the post above.

Jeff Mulliken
February 4, 2008, 10:16 AM
This is not a Remington Model 11. It is an early Browning Auto-5 made by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. The Remington guys should have known that in an instant based on the location of the serial number.

The makers marks have all been ground off and the reciever was buffed to death. Look at the dished out screw holes, the evidence is there.

Based on the style of safety (suicide) and lack of a magazine lock out it was made before 1909. Let me know how many digits are in the serial number total and I'll try to date it better for you.

The early Auto-5's are generally collectable but the abuse of the metal and the horrifying stock job eliminate any collector value.

If you pick up some old Browning wood and put it on it will recover some of it's early Auto-5 class and be a fun knock around gun.

Jeff

Cold Steel Man
February 4, 2008, 05:35 PM
Bill and Jeff: thank you for your insightful & helpful posts. I knew that this was the place to come for real information. The serial # is 5-digit. I would be happy to find that it is indded an A-5 ! I have always loved the old Browning wood and would replace this stock in a heartbeat if I could find a fitting and proper stock and forearn for it. Please let me know if there is anything further that either of you can tell me or need to ask. I will do my best to answer and am willing to listen to any of your advice.

Jeff Mulliken
February 4, 2008, 06:42 PM
cold steel, one comment on the other gun you showed in picture, it says Model 11 right on the breech bolt.

Cold Steel Man
February 4, 2008, 06:55 PM
Roger that, I did notice it. My bolt, however, is clean. No markings I can see. I have only just found disassembly instructions for the model 11. I also have instructions for the A-5. I have to get me a good long drift, however.
Besides the dished-out screw-holes and the bubba'd-up tang screws (what did they use for a screwdriver, anyway ...? ) what are some other things glaringly obvious to experienced eyes that mine have missed?

Cold Steel Man
February 4, 2008, 07:03 PM
Bill, You're a gunsmith: why in the world would anyone want to grind off the factory markings on this gun, especially if it is a Browning ? I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that makes absolutely no sense to me. :confused:

Jeff Mulliken
February 5, 2008, 12:50 AM
I think the gun was very badly rusted and in getting all the pitting off etc all the marks are gone. Have you looked at the underside of the barrel for proof marks?

For comparison here are a first year Remington Autoloading Shotgun (that was the name till 1911) And a 1928 Model 11 with 10 shot markethunters magazine extension. The bottom gun is a Sweet Sixteen.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/Roger_and_Destry.jpg

Here are a 1904 and 1906 Browning Auto-5's. Both have the 2nd generation safety retrofitted.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/Reciever_Right_s.jpg

The serial number is where it should be ona Browning but the numbers are all wrong. If you give us a good look at the ejector claw onthe barrel extension then maybe we could be sure what this gun is.

Jeff

Cold Steel Man
February 5, 2008, 06:18 PM
The barrel that came on it was not original (it was a Sportsman barrel, made much later): I replaced the 30" or so barrel with the one now on it, an RA-UMC, marked DH3 on the side, D92 underneath. I hope that the photos help.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemBoltface003.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemBoltface002.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/ColdSteelMan/Remington%20Model%2011/RemBoltface001.jpg

Jeff Mulliken
February 5, 2008, 09:06 PM
Seeing the mechanicals up close confirms it with no if ands or butts.

Its a Remington made gun. The serial number on the underside of the reciever fooled me but it turns out it is not the factory number.

If it was mine I'd start looking for some wood like the set on the middle gun in the picture above. Old wood will look more appropriate on that gun.

(I'm a traditionalist when it comes to these things)

Best regards,

Jeff

Cold Steel Man
February 6, 2008, 05:57 PM
Well, it was fun for a while thinking that it might actually be a Browning. I did want to know the truth. I really appreciate the help, the advice and the insight from both of you, and the pics of the real guns from you, Jeff. I am now in search of the correct wood for it and look forward to seeing it back in original (as close as I can get, anyway) condition. Having collected C&R rifles for many years, I am more than a bit of a traditionalist as well where originality is concerned. Thanks again.

Cold Steel Man
February 6, 2008, 06:26 PM
BTW, Jeff, what does the buttplate on your original Model 11 look like?

Jeff Mulliken
February 7, 2008, 10:37 AM
Here is a picture of the buttplates used on the Browning and Remington Humpbacks.

The Browning Auto-5 buttplates in the order used L-R

The two early Remington buttplates, left to right are the first year of production of the "Remington Autoloading Gun", 1905 and the second is from a "Model 11" made in 1922

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/Humpback_Buttplates.jpg

Jeff

Cold Steel Man
February 7, 2008, 05:45 PM
Great line-up! :eek: Thanks, Jeff. Now I know exactly what I'm looking for.

Jeff Mulliken
February 7, 2008, 10:28 PM
I hope it has been of use to you and you give that gun back some of it's dignity. It's nice to finally see one discussion on this bbs that is about guns, normal historic interesting guns.

There are so many stupid posts about how many times you need to shoot an intruder or how many shells you need have in your gun....what shot size for regular intruders as compared to pcp laced intruders.

The sad truth is this dixcussion would have more hits on it if we were talking about "accessorizing" a shotgun with useless plastic crap.

Imagine debating what kind of site to put on a shotgun to use inside your home...how stupid is that.

It must be past my bed time, getting cranky,

AMF,

Jeff

Cold Steel Man
February 9, 2008, 09:04 AM
I have learned a great deal from this thread & I am indebted to you & Bill for taking the time to respond to my request for insight concerning this shotgun. I have been a C&R collector of rifles for years but have always been very discriminating as to what I bought. All of my historical rifles are shootable and could be reissued tomorrow; I shoot them and I take care of them and they are all original. It is unconscionable to me that someone else would not take care of them, and I forget that some people will let a weapon rust up before they bother to clean it. I don't typically refinish a gun and the possibility that someone would need to do so to the extent that one had to go deep enough to remove the factory markings just never really occurred to me. I was taught better firearm care than that ((insert drill instructor voice )"A man that won't clean his weapon probably won't wipe his own butt" comes to mind here). Thanks for helping me to see what was there all the time and for reminding me that you can still learn something about that gun that's been sitting around in your rack for years. Half of the fun of owning them is learning about them, the other half is shooting them. I learned a great deal and had alot of fun researching it and learning from you guys. I really appreciate the pics, which will help me to be able to restore it to its original likeness. It will have much more value to me then than it does now. Thanks for the help. I enjoyed the exchange.

BillSXT2002
June 16, 2008, 10:49 AM
A little late to this thread, but I just picked one of these up too, in approximately the same serial number range. The wood looks exactly like the middle shotgun in that pic above, except someone has slapped some varnish or something on it over the years. The butt plate looks like the remington one on the left, except it has Remington on the top and a different word on the bottom, but I forget what exactly. I'm pretty sure that was the original stock for this model and year, at least.

The receiver is blank except for the serial number.

Jeff Mulliken
June 16, 2008, 11:53 AM
The middle Remington is roll stamped with the name and browning patent marks on the left side of the receiver. They are hard to see in the picture but they are there. The stock on these guns were original too. The very early Remingtons had that nice round pistol grip that was later changed to a square knob around 1911.

You'll have fun with your new/old gun.

Jeff

LASSWILSON
October 8, 2009, 12:32 PM
I have a model 11 also in very good condition , and it also has no id marks , ser # is in tact , writing on barrel remington arms
browing pattents etc all there but nothing at all as far as
choke of barrell , no id marks whatso ever on the reciever and
it is so clean you can obviously tell there never was
i have had it since i was like 7 of which i am 54 now
donwed many a deer and hundreds of ducks and geese , was looking into refinishing and restoring stock etc but now have gotten into finding out more about gun
and how to reposition the damper for different loads ( of which just reading i found out you can do ? )
who can i contact to get more infor on the gun
but i will say i love it ( its heavy though ) and very very dependable
just dont stand next to it when it ejects lol

Scorch
October 8, 2009, 12:51 PM
Cold Steel Man-
Your shotgun is a Remington Semiautomatic Shotgun as evidenced by the shape of the safety and the lack of a magazine cutoff (every A5 I have ever seen had the cutoff, that was one of the distinguishing features of the Browning). In addition to having been aggressivelu polished, it has also been restocked, because the forearms on original Remington Semiautomatic Shotguns typically split on the bottom. Brownings had the same problem.

As stated above, the Remington Semiautomatic Shotgun was renamed Model 11, and later Remington shotguns have that rollmarked into the receiver

wrhester
November 24, 2009, 09:20 PM
Hello, New here, but I have a Model 11 that was bought by my Great grandfather around 1918. At the time he was Sheriff of Red River Parish, LA. It was passed down to me and been my primary shotgun since I was around 16. I'm 47 now. The only problem I've had with it, is the buttplate. Any place I can get a replacement for it? The old one looked like the second from the right in the photo.

DG45
November 24, 2009, 11:55 PM
I don't know if these folks have that particular buttplate in inventory, but they may. Good Luck!

http://www.gun-parts.com/remingtonshotgun/