PDA

View Full Version : P32 in pocket chamber a round or no?


ShootemDown
January 18, 2008, 04:24 AM
I have a pocket holster looks much like this one here..

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dirksterg30/Kel-Tec/P3ATwithNemesis.jpg

I was wondering, should one leave the chamber empty ? or have a round in it ready to fire ?

the role of the P32 in this case being as a purely defensive weapon, I would think it is necessary to have a round in the chamber in the event of a unfortunate event.

for example:

You find yourself alone, and a mugger from 5 feet away takes out a knife and demands your posessions.. wallet and etc... I would think it is necessary to be able to draw and fire without having to take the time to pull the slide back to get a round in the chamber...

but then on the other hand, I worry having the round in chamber might accidental discharge while in the pocket.

thoughts ?

hoytinak
January 18, 2008, 04:48 AM
Keep one in the chamber. With the pocket holster the trigger is covered. Also don't carry anything else in the same pocket.

Bill DeShivs
January 18, 2008, 04:51 AM
I have carried a P32 in my pocket, no holster, with a round chambered for about 9 years. Never carry anything else in that pocket!

KD5NRH
January 18, 2008, 05:03 AM
If it went off all by itself KelTec would already be out of business.

Do you really want to be stuck using it as a club?

Adventurer 2
January 18, 2008, 06:53 AM
I carry a Kel Tec 32 in the same holster. I have a round chambered. Sometimes the pistol shifts and falls out of the holster in the pocket. The trigger pull is so long on that pistol that I am not worried about it accidentally going off in my pocket.

threegun
January 18, 2008, 09:48 AM
Carry it chamber loaded.

Hard Ball
January 18, 2008, 11:16 AM
Carry a round un the chamber!

obxned
January 18, 2008, 11:17 AM
Unless you can call a 'time out' to chamber a round, you have a problem!

Glenn E. Meyer
January 18, 2008, 12:08 PM
Living in NYC and surrounded by waves of evil, why would you not be ready to immediately shoot them down?

BTW, if the mugger is five feet from you - perchance you are in a Tueller drill situation and just drawing and shooting might be quite interesting.

Expect to get most likely sliced and diced if your response is to go for the draw flatfooted.

Do they let you train in NYC?

Perldog007
January 18, 2008, 12:55 PM
Get a Hi Point, carry it in your backpack condition III. If you need to defend yourself and do not have time to chamber one, just hit them with the backpack.


Otherwise, carry one in the chamber unless you have one of those imported TOkarev things. In that case you should be buying another gun.


Pocket holster, nothing else in the pocket, good to go. YMMV

DMK
January 18, 2008, 01:10 PM
If I carry a CCW it has a round chambered. An empty gun isn't even a very good club.

Never carry anything else in that pocket!Very, very good advice. Even with a pocket holster.

ShootemDown
January 18, 2008, 04:12 PM
OK, round in chamber it is..

I wont speak of much about NYC except carry permits are a pain to get and are offered to those who are in business, rich, celebrites, etc etc etc... no shall issue here. I do have ccw from PA and FL.

So I will comment that my carrying is to be taken place in the states where my permits are good. I frequent Philly quite often ;)

In response to will they let me train ? I dont know what that means, here, they have a few ranges, mostly just shooting at a piece of paper you hang up. no tactical room clearning shooting windows fun stuff...

ShootemDown
January 18, 2008, 04:18 PM
Tueller drill situation ..

I just read up on that running up to you and etc...

I know you cant defend against everything, the element of suprise is very strong, but on well, better than nothing. maybe some steven segal akido is in order to just flip these people around. :D

Glenn E. Meyer
January 19, 2008, 04:36 PM
You should carry chambered in NYC if you meet the Cloverfield monster. Just saw it. Also it makes you rethink saving the girlfriend or going with your friend to save his girl friend. Follow the retreating troops seems a good idea.

Sorry to go off topic.

David Armstrong
January 20, 2008, 05:28 PM
If you have time to draw it, you probably have time to chamber a round in it. What is your personal level of comfort, your own situation, etc.? Base your decision on what works best for you in your situation, not what others think should be done.

CraigJS
January 20, 2008, 06:22 PM
And learn to MOVE at the first sign of trouble. Distance is your friend, even a couple of feet can make the difference..
Round in the chamber. Practice around home with an EMPTY gun (check it at least twice, drawing, no dry fire wo a snap cap) until you are comfortable. We who have replied have carried them this way numerous times ( or they shouldn't have replied IMO).
Bottom line though it is YOUR decision.
Be safe, CraigJS
PS: If carried this way, unload and regularly check the gun for debris that may come from even an empty pocket.

ShootemDown
January 20, 2008, 09:04 PM
Question: if you do carry with round chambered... when you get home, do you unchamber and remove mag? and to load it up again in the morning ?

How many times can you chamber a round, and extract it before the round being chambered should be replaced with a fresh one ?

hoytinak
January 20, 2008, 09:09 PM
My carry gun stays fully loaded 24/7.

CraigJS
January 21, 2008, 09:21 PM
If carried in a pocket holster you don't need to unload and check every night. I check mine weekly or so. If your pocket is kept empty there won't be a lot of debris. It isn't a bad idea to check your pocket for lint etc. before putting your gun in it also. If kids aren't a factor leave it loaded. If kids are a factor, get a locking metal case/container. Some are key locks, some have a sort of combonation lock device shaped like your 4 or 5 fingers that need to be pressed in a certain order to open.. ( and still keep it loaded but safe)
Be safe, CraigJS

Jkwas
January 26, 2008, 10:22 AM
Keep one in the chamber. With the pocket holster the trigger is covered. Also don't carry anything else in the same pocket.

What he said. I used to feel the same way as you with one in the chamber, but then I realized I would always need two hands to operate the gun. Case closed for me. ;)

nate45
January 26, 2008, 10:34 AM
Carry it with a round chambered or politely ask the BG if you could have a timeout while you chamber a round.:)

orionengnr
January 26, 2008, 11:09 AM
Question: if you do carry with round chambered... when you get home, do you unchamber and remove mag? and to load it up again in the morning ?

How many times can you chamber a round, and extract it before the round being chambered should be replaced with a fresh one ?

I believe that you dramatically increase your chances of an ND during daily "fiddling" around with it. Once it's loaded, don't monkey with it.

The P32 is small, slide is small and not-too-grippy, springs are stiff. Not an easy pistol to chamber. My P3AT stays loaded all the time. When I go to the range the ammo gets recycled...downrange.

An unloaded pistol is a club. An unloaded P32 is a seven-ounce plastic club.

tackdriver
January 26, 2008, 11:21 AM
If you have time to draw it, you probably have time to chamber a round in it.

This is not even close to being true in a situation where a self-defense shooting would be justified.

If someone is really trying to KILL YOU, you're going to be shaking because your adrenaline is going to be coming out of your ears and hopefully you're going to be moving as fast as you can away from the threat.

If you think you can dig a P32 out of your pants, grab onto that tiny little slide and get a good enough grip on it to rack the slide (keeping in mind how tough that spring is) and get that miracle one-shot-stop (with a .32ACP) off in a life-or-death situation, I believe you are fooling yourself and taking an unnecessary risk.

If you don't believe me, try it with an unloaded P32. And I don't mean while you're standing still. Jog down a hallway or something.

I do carry a P32 in pocket, but only as a backup, when clothing makes it necessary or when the threat level is so absolutely low that it makes sense. I also carry it in a jacket pocket instead of pants when possible. If you're moving at all, your leg is going to be closing off pocket access.

KD5NRH
January 26, 2008, 11:47 AM
Another thought is that not having a round chambered takes away the possibility of shooting through the pocket; if someone demands your money, stick your hand in your pocket and fire the first shot or two before they have a clue anything's up, then draw and take aimed shots as necessary.

Charles S
January 26, 2008, 01:51 PM
Question: if you do carry with round chambered... when you get home, do you unchamber and remove mag? and to load it up again in the morning ?

How many times can you chamber a round, and extract it before the round being chambered should be replaced with a fresh one ?

Most negligent discharges occur during administrative handling. So don't! Once you load it leave it loaded until you need to clean it. It will reinforce your belief that a gun is always loaded.

Hayley
January 26, 2008, 08:17 PM
"This is not even close to being true in a situation where a self-defense shooting would be justified."

+1

And you may be assaulted/wounded before you are even aware of danger.

David Armstrong
January 28, 2008, 03:52 PM
This is not even close to being true in a situation where a self-defense shooting would be justified.
Nonsense. Very few shooting happen in that critical split-second time frame that matters. In fact, many justified shootings occur in a time fram elong enough to get the gun from some location off the body.
If someone is really trying to KILL YOU, you're going to be shaking because your adrenaline is going to be coming out of your ears and hopefully you're going to be moving as fast as you can away from the threat.
And that keeps you from getting to your gun and chambering a round how??
If you think you can dig a P32 out of your pants, grab onto that tiny little slide and get a good enough grip on it to rack the slide (keeping in mind how tough that spring is) and get that miracle one-shot-stop (with a .32ACP) off in a life-or-death situation, I believe you are fooling yourself and taking an unnecessary risk
We're all entitled to an opinion, but let's look at the facts, which are that chamber empty carry has been used a whole lot without much trouble, in spite of all the nay-sayers. FWIW, if you believe in that miracle one-shot-stop with a .45 ACP in a life or death situation, I believe you are fooling yourself and taking an unnecessary risk.
The only difference between chamber empty and chamber loaded presentation time-wise is the fraction of a second it takes to rack the slide.

tackdriver
February 3, 2008, 02:47 PM
David,
Every bit of training I've ever had has been from SWAT officers and instructors. Every point you've made flies in the face of years of that training. Why you would suggest that someone would carry a tiny pistol with known feeding problems and shooting a .32 ACP unloaded is beyond me.
And if it's a fact that shootings don't take place in environments that call for split-second presentations and decisions, I would be thrilled to see the evidence.
You may also be the first person in history to attempt to start a .32 versus .45 caliber debate.:rolleyes:

odessastraight
February 3, 2008, 05:01 PM
Heck, with a .32ACP it probably matters little if you have a round in the tube or not. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you, but the .32ACP isn't even a barely adequate self defence cartridge. If you've just got to carry that light then the minimum should be 9mm and with very good loads, at that. Kel Tec also makes 9mm pocket pistols, P-11 and P-9. I own a P-9 single stack that has proven completely reliable (150+ rounds) is lighter than, and that I can shoot more accurately than my .38 Snubs. If I wasn't such a gun snob I'd probably carry that little thing instead of my Detective Special.

Charles S
February 3, 2008, 05:04 PM
Nonsense. Very few shooting happen in that critical split-second time frame that matters. In fact, many justified shootings occur in a time fram elong enough to get the gun from some location off the body.

Cite your information....I would be more than happy to review the source of your data.

We're all entitled to an opinion, but let's look at the facts,.....

What facts, where are you getting your data. Your data conflicts with the data that is provided by some of the premier training individuals.

ShootemDown
February 3, 2008, 05:29 PM
odessa, I was already aware of the limitations if the 32auto cartridge.

If I were to tell you, that I carry a Full sized .32 pistol as a main weapon, fine, go ahead and tell me I should get 9mm or better...

but this is the P32, the lightest gun I ever seen. small and concealable.

This piece, is for when I DONT expect to get into a gunfight. If I did, I would bring something bigger or not go at all.

The role of the P32, is to aid my survival, in the off chance that say 4 or 5 muggers attack me at once, the 7or 8 rounds of .32 will even the playing field, it is easier to fight when your adversaries have a few holes in each. PLUS the shots heard will surely bring the police, or if not at least some bystanders for witnesses...

all in all, I will stick to my P32 when max concealibility is an issue, as it frequently is:, and when it is not, I carry a 637 or glock 19.

hoytinak
February 3, 2008, 05:31 PM
I know it's small but I feel safe carrying my Seecamp .32 fully loaded. It goes everywhere I go. ;)

2cooltoolz
February 3, 2008, 06:03 PM
...and a very definite +1 on keeping one chambered. I wouldn't consider the other option! In a pocket holster (my Nemesis works great!) with nothing else in the pocket. I've only counted one dissenting opinion...

odessastraight
February 3, 2008, 09:03 PM
I'll go with somtimes needing to compromise power for concealibility, but only to a certain degree. Heck, I have, in fact, done just exactly that and now I do it on a regular basis. I'll admit that it's all for comfort, too. The .45 Commander or the K or L framed Smith just got too heavy and uncomfortable. I go with a pocket snubby .38 (or a tiny 9mm) now. I in no way agree with your rationale thinking you may have safer times than other times to rationalize the carry such a weak caliber.

Still, it's your life and no skin off of my nose what you do carry. I'd say that ,whatever you do carry, keep a round in the chamber.

Samurai
February 4, 2008, 04:44 PM
I have the exact same setup: Same holster, only mine's a P3AT (.380, get it? *laughs sarcastically*).

I carry chambered. The holster doesn't cover the whole trigger guard, but it covers the trigger itself. That seems to be enough to keep foreign objects from engaging the trigger. (+1 on not carrying anything else in that pocket!!!)

Carrying chambered seems to work for me. The trigger pull on the 3AT is REALLY long! Kel Tec would have some REAL problems if their "pocket carry" pistol started discharging in people's pockets! They tout their "block safety" feature pretty heartily.

ShootemDown
February 4, 2008, 06:53 PM
I have the exact same setup: Same holster, only mine's a P3AT (.380, get it? *laughs sarcastically*).

HA HA HA, I never thought of that ! did kel tec mean to do that ? have AT rhyme with 80 ?

David Armstrong
February 5, 2008, 04:59 PM
Every bit of training I've ever had has been from SWAT officers and instructors. Every point you've made flies in the face of years of that training.
I would hope so. Different situations, different equipment, different concerns. SWAT officers and such have a very different set of issues surrounding their carry of firearms than does the non-LE CCW holder.
Why you would suggest that someone would carry a tiny pistol with known feeding problems and shooting a .32 ACP unloaded is beyond me.

I don't suggest that. What I suggest is (1) in most DGU incidents the caliber and location and carry-mode of the gun doesn't matter very much; (2) different people have different concerns, or different equipment problems, than others and they should make decisions based on what is best for them and their situation, not what is best for someone else; and (3) autoloaders were carried chamber empty for most of the 20th Century, and are still carried that way in lots of places, without it seeming to be much of a handicap, so all this talk about how bad it is is not supported by the evidence. If I actually suggest anything it is that most folks would be better off if we all just carried K-frame .38s and didn't get wrapped up in all these fairly irrelavent issues.
And if it's a fact that shootings don't take place in environments that call for split-second presentations and decisions, I would be thrilled to see the evidence.
Some do, but they are the rare exception. And for that exception the place and mode of carry of the gun is going to have more impact on speed of presentation than the condition of the chamber. As for evidence, my suggestion is always if you don't believe me go do the research yourself. I can tell you that I've looked at over 10,000 shootings, both LE and non-LE, and I present that information to take or leave as one wishes. I can tell you that a summary of the NRA Armed Citizen column shows almost no cases where the quick draw mattered. I can try to explain logically that unless there is a very small window of time the incident occurs in, it doesn’t matter. If it happens before that small window, it doesn’t matter. If it happens after that small window, it doesn’t matter. So, what is that window? It is the time it takes you to rack the slide. Let us assume that adds a quarter second to your total time (which is pretty slow, by the way). And let us assume that you can draw and fire at the 2 second mark. If the attack comes before you can draw and fire having the chamber loaded or not doesn’t matter, as you don’t have time to draw and fire at all. If the attack comes with a 2.25+ second time frame having the chamber loaded or not doesn’t matter, as you have time to chamber a round. Only if the attack happens after 2 seconds but before 2.25 seconds does the chamber condition matter. But I always request folks do their own research. Crawl through the internet. Read the papers. Look at the incidents. See for yourself if it matters, when it matters, and what situations it matters in, then make a decision based on that knowledge.

David Armstrong
February 5, 2008, 05:12 PM
What facts, where are you getting your data.
As mentioned above, feel free to do research on your own if you don't like mine. I'm sorry that 30 years of research, 10,000+ incidents, and thousands of pages of literature can't be accessed with a mouse click. I've never understood why one would accept the data from some unknown person they never heard of over me any way. My credential are as good as most, better than many, in this area. But please, feel free to look at the information yourself and show us where I'm worng. Heck, I'll make it easy. Forget thousands of cases. Randomly select any 100 that can be considered representative of the common DGU incident and let us know how you come out.
Your data conflicts with the data that is provided by some of the premier training individuals.
Very few premier training individuals are trained researchers, and few of them spend much time doing research. Most of them don't provide data, they give quote findings from other people that may or may not have the data. And I've lost track of the number of times I've found top trainers simply quoting something they heard that later turned out to be incorrect. Heck, one of my prized possessions was a letter from Jeff Cooper thanking me for correcting a claim he was making that was incorrect, and Jeff was one of the better ones when it comes to reliable information.

fat old gun nut
February 6, 2008, 07:16 PM
I carry a 3AT from kel-tec I keep it in my back pocket ALL the time. It fits well is not bothersome when I sit and always goes "BANG" when I pull the trigger. I can't ask more of a gun than that!:D

Aqeous
February 6, 2008, 07:41 PM
Mine is a px4 sub compact in 9mm. Honestly, I can pull that thing out, work the slide and fire in one very fast fluid motion. Thats how I practice with it. However if I found myself, say, walking down a dark alley way in NY for instance :rolleyes: (which none of us should be doing in the first place) I would most certainly chamber the round and more than that I would be keeping my hand on it at all times.

If I was (realistically) physically attacked I am confident that I can draw my gun just as fast either way. Again, because that how I practice. If someone were to jump out of a corner and grab me (lets say he was alone) It would be hand to hand and in close quarters--and putting a gun into the mix is not always in your favor.

If I were to feel that I was in danger I would chamber a round. But in my life, where I live it, how I live it, I don't find myself walking down many dark alleyways. My most likely threats will be do to: road rage, maniacs that might walk into some public place, ex.) and so there is no realistic perceived event that will require me to literally draw my gun a fraction of a second faster. There is more than one way to do everything.

ShootemDown
February 7, 2008, 03:48 AM
"I carry a 3AT from kel-tec I keep it in my back pocket ALL the time. It fits well is not bothersome when I sit and always goes "BANG" when I pull the trigger. I can't ask more of a gun than that!"

dont repeatly sitting on a gun will bend the frame or doe something to it bad ?

David Armstrong
February 7, 2008, 07:29 PM
Honestly, I can pull that thing out, work the slide and fire in one very fast fluid motion.
Yes. Most people don't realize just how little time it adds (if any) to the presentation.

dont repeatly sitting on a gun will bend the frame or doe something to it bad ?
It can, over time, but it is rare. A lot depends on just how the gun rests in that back pocket. Some pockets cause more weight to be on the gun than others.

Ohio Rusty
February 7, 2008, 09:18 PM
I ALWAYS have a round in the chamber. (Speer GDHP) The only time it gets uloaded is when it is shot or cleaned. I usually just use canned air and blow the pocket lint from the P3 I carry.

How are you going to chamber a round if a knife weilding attacker jumps out and slashes one of your arm with that knife. Now you are down to one usable arm.

What happens if you get attacked by a stray dog and he is biting the arm you are trying to fend him off with?

What happens if the bad guy has a choke hold on you and you are bent over the hood of your car ...... Or the BG has you on the ground ???

If you don't keep a round in the chamber and ready to fire at all times, we'll be taking up a collection here to send to your widow and orphaned kids.

It is only common sense to keep your pistol ready to save your life and the life of your family at all times. If you couldn't get a round in the chamber and your wife or child was kidnapped, raped and murdered, you could never forgive yourself for not being ready ....
'Nuff said?

Ohio Rusty ><>
Psalms 27:1-3/Psalms 91:9-11 (AMP)

Aqeous
February 7, 2008, 10:38 PM
Ohio must be one hell of a place . . .

Shadi Khalil
February 7, 2008, 10:50 PM
While I always carry my pistol loaded, I can see why some people just wont. I wouldnt say that it out right defeats the purpose of carrying but I think that carrying loaded is the smartest and safest way to go. Now, I say safe but maybe in my heart of hearts I dont believe that. Case in point, I carry a sig 239 in a galco summer comfort IWB at 8 o'clock, that however is not the best postion for me to carry as far as printing goes. The gun hides best at 12 o'clock, directly over my junk. For some reason, I just cant sit comfortably with the barrel of that sig pointed directly at what lies beneath. I didnt feel that way with my Kahr and i'm fine carrying there with my 342. I think its the decocker and whole hammer down thing. I understand how it works and that its safe but my junk doesnt get that yet. On the plus side, the 8 o'clock is very comfortable, I just have to watch when I bend over.

As for the racking on the draw, After following this thread the last couple days, I decided to give it a try in with some snap caps. It proved to be allot harder than I thought it would be. I think it would take allot of practice to really get myself comfortable and proficent with that method. I guess there are four motions to my draw, all natural fluid feeling montions. Throwing in the whole racking of the slide really threw me off. I found my hand slipping off the slide a few times or not racking in hard enough. The biggest draw back I found was that I was looking down at the gun through out my draw adn when I failed to rack the slide I was practically foucsed on the gun the rather than the target. This is a big hunky 239 slide, I think the kel tec might be allot tougher.

David Armstrong
February 8, 2008, 10:00 AM
If you don't keep a round in the chamber and ready to fire at all times, we'll be taking up a collection here to send to your widow and orphaned kids.
While that is a nice thought, and certainly a well-thought out litany of terrible things that MIGHT happen, unfortunately history just doesn't seem to show these predictions of doom and disaster happening to any degree.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 8, 2008, 11:02 AM
What happens if the bad guy has a choke hold on you and you are bent over the hood of your car ...... Or the BG has you on the ground ???

It would be hard to draw the gun period and use it in a safe manner in those situations. That's why a touch of H2H or Defensive Knife is useful.

I do agree with the idea that the unchambered gun is a risk factor if injured.

Aqeous
February 8, 2008, 05:30 PM
Its kind of similar to basketball, you don't want to look at the ball as you dribble, you have to keep your eyes on the guy in front of you. Just because it doesn't work at first doesn't mean that it won't, somethings just take a little time.

However from where I understand that you are keeping your gun, it may be difficult simply because of the possition that your are forced to start from. You can always changes positions a bit if it helps . . . at any rate I know I don't want my junk looking down the barrel of a gun :) If it could talk it might ask you to reconsider your carrying habits :)

Shadi Khalil
February 8, 2008, 05:48 PM
Aqeous,

Out of the 12 o'clock it was def. easier. Im sure with time and practice I could get better. However, I think I'll keep carrying loaded. I have enough trouble shooting straight off the line at the range, my straight draw shots always need work :)

Stevie-Ray
February 8, 2008, 07:12 PM
I'm sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you, but the .32ACP isn't even a barely adequate self defence cartridge.Tell that to the people .32 ACP has killed.

That's not news, simply opinion, and telling you that carrying that 9mm is useless and .45 ACP is the bare minimum carries about as much weight.

I always carry with one in the chamber of my P32, and in the same holster as the OP's.

hoytinak
February 8, 2008, 07:20 PM
I'm sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you, but the .32ACP isn't even a barely adequate self defence cartridge.

Like others have said before, this is where shot placement comes in. I feel safe and secure carrying my .32 every day.

Charles S
February 8, 2008, 09:56 PM
As mentioned above, feel free to do research on your own if you don't like mine. I'm sorry that 30 years of research, 10,000+ incidents, and thousands of pages of literature can't be accessed with a mouse click.

I have not seen yours and your reply can be taken as a cop out for Take my word for it

Forget thousands of cases. Randomly select any 100 that can be considered representative of the common DGU incident and let us know how you come out.

Again...your quote..please supply the statistics to back your assertions...

Very few premier training individuals are trained researchers, and few of them spend much time doing research. Most of them don't provide data, they give quote findings from other people that may or may not have the data. And I've lost track of the number of times I've found top trainers simply quoting something they heard that later turned out to be incorrect. Heck, one of my prized possessions was a letter from Jeff Cooper thanking me for correcting a claim he was making that was incorrect, and Jeff was one of the better ones when it comes to reliable information.

And you are a trained researcher? I just finished my thesis in research. I would be happy to look at your data....

Anecdotal data does not research make!

I have a bias...I believe that the majority of gun writers are not experts about what they write about. Some writers are, others are quite knowledgeable, and others are quite questionable.

If an individual decided to write about cancer treatment without the background he would be discounted. However a gun writer needs little or no training, little or no experience, and no real credentials to be an authority.

I am not saying you fit that mold, what I am asking, and have asked for in the past is data to back your assertions.

Tell that to the people .32 ACP has killed.

I hate to break this to you, but there is a substantial difference in stopping a killing.

You can kill a cape buffalo with a 22. You however may not survive the incident when he stomps you into a bloody muddy puddle.

Chindo18Z
February 9, 2008, 12:33 AM
ShootemDown: P32 in pocket chamber a round or no?

Your P-32 will not AD in your pocket, especially in the holster you have chosen.

You are absolutely correct in thinking that you should have a round in the chamber.

The P-32 offers only two serious advantages as a CCW weapon:

1. Size & Weight
2. Absolute simplicity (no manipulation required beyond present and fire)

For these gains, you sacrifice ballistic performance, magazine capacity, sight radius, accuracy at distance, and potential feed reliability (with the .32 ACP and P-32 in particular). BTW: Mine works just fine.

That said, why inject Murphy into an already marginal equation by carrying empty chamber? Adding a self-induced requirement to load under stress is foolishness in the extreme. You would be complicating a relatively fool-proof method of defense by adding branches and sequels for failure which are based upon dangerous assumptions:

1. That you will have both time and physical ability to rack the slide.
2. That the feeding cycle will be reliable and complete, without remedial action.
3. That you have a weak hand to accomplish this action in a speedy manner.
4. That you will always be well-practiced, smooth, fast, composed, fumble-free…and lucky.

Other posters have suggested that you are statistically unlikely to need to present your civilian CCW weapon in a hurry…and that is actually true.

You are also statistically unlikely to ever need a weapon at all…but you’ve already determined to address that unlikelihood by carrying one anyway, haven’t you?

I’d certainly not hunt whitetail or game birds without one in the chamber. Why voluntarily handicap my own defense by inducing a physical interruption of my ability to employ my CCW? Why negate one of the few advantages provided by my chosen arm (P-32 = Instant Simplicity of Presentation)?

Although some organizations or populations have carried (or do carry) empty chamber … said posture was mandated by bureaucrats more concerned with mitigation of collective negligent discharges than personal efficiency in a death struggle.

Lots of stupid things are mandated in this world…including excessive taxes, draconian gun control laws, water-saver toilets, employment of FMJ-only bullets, and (occasionally) empty chamber or magazine well carry. Mandated modes of carry are less about your survival and fighting efficiency than they are about CYA for bosses and politicos. In other words…absent regulatory requirements, why handicap yourself?

Can you carry chamber empty? Of course you can. Will chamber empty CCW carry statistically suffice for most folks, for most situations, and for most of the time? Probably. Maybe. Hopefully.

As someone I admire once said: “It ain’t the odds…it’s the stakes”.

YMMV. The Usual Suspects May Fire When Ready…

Shadi Khalil
February 9, 2008, 03:13 AM
I’d certainly not hunt whitetail or game birds without one in the chamber. Why voluntarily handicap my own defense by inducing a physical interruption of my ability to employ my CCW? Why negate one of the few advantages provided by my chosen arm (P-32 = Instant Simplicity of Presentation)?

Well Stated.

TimboKhan
February 9, 2008, 05:51 AM
Every bit of training I've ever had has been from SWAT officers and instructors. Every point you've made flies in the face of years of that training.

I can totally agree with the principle of what your saying, but I also don't think SWAT tactics and training are the most useful thing in the world when it comes to self-defense. It's not so much that I think there is nothing to learn as it is that a good deal of SWAT-type training is not applicable to me defending my self and home. For example, I will never have to train with 5 of my neighbors in order to do a room by room takedown with the goal of rescuing a hostage.

As far as the .32 itself, my two cents is that it is an excellent cartridge when chambered for guns like the Kel-Tec, that are uber-small and ultra-concealable. My carry cartridge of choice is a .357 magnum, but I also have Kel-Tec in .380. I would feel equally as comfortable with a .32 loaded with silvertips. It's not a great round, but it is a useful round. I think that as long as you understand that it is not a particularly good "main" gun, and think of it as a BUG or a social gun, the utility makes itself a good deal more apparent.

If I go to walmart at night (which happens at least twice a week), the .357 goes with me. The Kel-Tec is pretty much my main truck gun, and it is also the gun that I carry in my versi=pack when I go waddle around the park, which I do during the day. It also helps that the park I walk at is about as safe as parks get. Frankly, I have more trouble with geese than I do with people.

odessastraight
February 9, 2008, 11:31 PM
I always get a chuckle out of one member asking for the other to cite references or give a list of credentials to back up an opinion. It should be understood that all any of us provide is our opinions I'll ask for opinions and will certainly give mine. Take it or leave it and I'll do the same.

I maintain that to carry a .32ACP for self defence is foolish. There are much better choices with similar specifications as to size and weight of that Kel Tec .32 in at least 9mm. I also think that carry of a 9mm in a service sized handgun is foolish, but that's a different topic. I do think the 9X19 should be the minimum for a very light and flat pocket pistol.

Still, I'm a revolver guy, although that light, thin, cheap, plastic, Kel Tec PF-9 is starting to find it's way into my pocket more and more.

Charles S
February 10, 2008, 09:13 AM
I always get a chuckle out of one member asking for the other to cite references or give a list of credentials to back up an opinion. It should be understood that all any of us provide is our opinions I'll ask for opinions and will certainly give mine.

I don't ask for credentials or statistics if one is giving an opinion. However when an individual goes beyond an opinions and asserts that: statistics show, data shows - then I do.

It is my background...education and training. I don't believe anyones statistical data on blind faith. If you want to give an opinion, fine. It you want to say that statistics or data back your opinion then you need to be willing to back that up with hard evidence.

Take it or leave it and I'll do the same.

I generally feel different. I don't choose to believe something just because I like it or it sounds good. I believe it if the evidence shows it to be true, but that is just me.

David Armstrong
February 10, 2008, 05:35 PM
I have not seen yours and your reply can be taken as a cop out for Take my word for it
So, not only do you not have any idea what the data is and what it shows, you are too lazy to look it up yourself. Sorry, but if you wish to glory in your lack of knowledge, that is your choice. I'm not going to spoonfeed you.
Again...your quote..please supply the statistics to back your assertions...
Again...are you just too lazy to do this stuff yourself or do you not know how to do it? You don't like my numbers, fine, go find your own. I do find it sort of interesting when people refuse to do that, BTW. Says quite a bit about them, IMO.
And you are a trained researcher?
Yes. Ph.D., published in refereed journals, presented at professional seminars, etc.
I just finished my thesis in research. I would be happy to look at your data.
LOL! Tell you what--why don't you collect your own data and and then use that new research ability? I've already started your design for you: "Randomly select any 100 that can be considered representative of the common DGU incident ...". Let us know what you find out. Then try to give us a the references and statistics to just those 100. Ought to be interesting.
I believe that the majority of gun writers are not experts about what they write about.
I disagree. Many are experts about what they write. Unfortunately, many also leave their area of expertise within their writing.
I hate to break this to you, but there is a substantial difference in stopping a killing.
Yes, but is there a substantial difference in stopping that can be attributed to caliber among handguns? That is the real issue, and in that arena the .32 has worked comparatively well.

I believe it if the evidence shows it to be true, but that is just me.
Yet you are unwilling to look for the evidence on your won. So in essence you put yourself and your beliefs in the hands of others and whatever they choose to tell you about. Strange.

David Armstrong
February 10, 2008, 05:41 PM
Although some organizations or populations have carried (or do carry) empty chamber … said posture was mandated by bureaucrats more concerned with mitigation of collective negligent discharges than personal efficiency in a death struggle.
FWIW, while it is correct to say that chamber empty has been mandated in some instances, it is not correct to say that chamber empty is/has only been used when mandated. Lots of individuals carry or have carried chamber empty by choice.

Charles S
February 10, 2008, 07:36 PM
So, not only do you not have any idea what the data is and what it shows, you are too lazy to look it up yourself. Sorry, but if you wish to glory in your lack of knowledge, that is your choice. I'm not going to spoonfeed you.

Nope, not too lazy...just educated....Where I was taught I was learned it was proper Etiquette to post a cite to the information I reference. I guess you PhD left that out.

You don't like my numbers, fine, go find your own.

I have not seen your numbers...you are too lazy to post them. Or they are non-existent.

Yes. Ph.D., published in refereed journals, presented at professional seminars, etc.

Yes...I am sure...proud of that are we....And you should be. A PhD is a major accomplishment. However your PhD is not in research, and I would be willing to bet you have little real training in research or statistics. However if you post your data you can prove me wrong.


Yet you are unwilling to look for the evidence on your won. So in essence you put yourself and your beliefs in the hands of others and whatever they choose to tell you about. Strange.

Spelling is tough for those PhDs...However I am not a trained researcher...I am trained in the evaluation of research provided by others. That is what my thesis was about.

Again, if you are willing I will look at the data you provide...as will other knowledgeable posters on the board.

However if you think I will accept your word because it is your word you are wrong...You can be defensive, you can make assertions. I am just asking you to back your assertions with data.....If you can.

Be proud of your PhD.....but back your assertions up with real data or simply state it is your opinion.

Stevie-Ray
February 10, 2008, 07:57 PM
Spelling is tough for those PhDs...However I am not a trained researcher...I am trained in the evaluation of research provided by others. That is what my thesis was about.Don't trample on people's spelling and then produce sentences like:
Nope, not too lazy...just educated....Where I was taught I was learned it was proper Etiquette to post a cite to the information I reference. I guess you PhD left that out. (I was learned? Hmm...too fancy for me)

And:
I hate to break this to you, but there is a substantial difference in stopping a killing. Since I assume you mean "stopping and killing" there is also a substantial difference between stopping a human being, and stopping a Cape Buffalo. Get real.

pax
February 10, 2008, 08:00 PM
Don't have any real education of my own. The only thing I remember from high school was the debate team lead said the guy who made the assertion had to be the one to back it up with facts.

So who won here? Dunno.

But I know who lost -- all the folks who could have learned something from this thread if it hadn't degenerated into a piddling contest.

Closed, for cause.

pax