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Early C.
January 15, 2008, 05:14 PM
I was in the local Bass Pro the other day looking for a 18-20" barrel for my 870. The sales clerk said all he had was one 20" with rifling. I said I don't want that because it will only be used with 2 3/4" 0 buck and occasionally 00 buck. He said why? I said for HD. He then told me I should be using nothing but #8 shot for home defense. :confused:

I told him I live in a house out in the sticks, so overpenetration was not a problem.

He was still trying to convince me as I was walking away.

Am I missing something?

root
January 15, 2008, 05:19 PM
nope, you're right. personally I'd be comfortable with #4 buck for HD, but that's as far as I'd go.

if I remember right (boxotruth) #8 didn't really penetrate enough for any sort of self defense.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
-- http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
-- http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


I'm a little surprised at his assertion that #4 isn't acceptable, as it's essential a 30 cal pellet ... I suppose it doesn't necessarily have the same mass/velocity as a 30 cal rifle round??

Ruger4570
January 15, 2008, 05:22 PM
If you are close enough a load of #8 will rip a huge hole in a bad guy. Most prefer bigger shot sizes such as #4 or #2. The bigger the shot the more distance you can be effective at. I sure wouldn't "want" to use #8 but if it was all that I had available, I certainy would prefer it to no gun and ammo.

ZeroJunk
January 15, 2008, 05:36 PM
I agree with Ruger. It wouldn't be what I would choose for the purpose, but in the close quarters of a home invasion it would behave more like a solid mass than a bunch of independent shot.

I suspect he would lose interest in being there pretty quickly.

rem870hunter
January 15, 2008, 08:55 PM
i wonder what would happen if you aim for (dare i type it) the face of the intruder. using fine shot if thats all you had. i don't know about you but i think if the average person got shot in the face i don't think they are going to be in the mood to do anything but scream and cry like a little twit.

a friendly FYI :
#4 buckshot is not .30 cal. its .24 cal. #1 buckshot is .30 cal.
i would use #1 or 0 buckshot for HD puposes. both patterend fine at 18 yards from my 870 12 ga. slug barrel.

Sgt.Fathead
January 15, 2008, 11:49 PM
Here in NJ where we have some really interesting anti-gun and criminal friendly laws, there's something called 'Possibility of Retreat' in which, should you decide to protect hearth and home with your firearm, some slick anti- prosecutor will try to convince the jury you could have climbed your half asleep self out your bathroom window while the poor/disadvantaged/victim of abuse/whatever meth freak trashed your house on a treasure hunt.

I am a former Marine 0331. Since I do not have the venerable M60E3 for HD, I use a Rem 870 Express Synthetic 8-shot. It is loaded with the following 2-3/4" 12 gauge shells which would cycle in reverse order: Buckhammer slug, 1-18 oz., same, 000 Buck (9 pellet), 00 Buck (12 Pellet), 000, 00, 000. The SpeedFeed III stock holds four more 000 shells, the six round side saddle 00.

I want to live. I want to grow old with my wife, spend time with my family, be productive, finish that damn '55 Pontiac, travel more. I don't think bird shot was made for push-in burglars, drugged crazies, general lowlifes. I've seen what #7 does to targets and clays and birds. I've also seen what 00 and 000 and slugs do to much more solid objects, much more agile and strong creatures.

Call 911 and call the lawyer.

odsixer
January 16, 2008, 12:15 AM
i don't think they are going to be in the mood to do anything but scream and cry like a little twit.

That cracked me up.

Bird shot is for birds.

Maser
January 16, 2008, 12:17 AM
Birdshot, buckshot, or a slug.....It don't really matter at close range because it's going to hit its target as a big ball of lead regardless of shot size.

novaDAK
January 16, 2008, 03:00 AM
for HD, I keep low recoil 1oz. slugs, and "extra power" 00Buck ready :)

I use #8 for "shotgun plinking" because it is just so cheap when buying 100rd packs :)

root
January 16, 2008, 11:30 AM
a friendly FYI :
#4 buckshot is not .30 cal. its .24 cal. #1 buckshot is .30 cal.
i would use #1 or 0 buckshot for HD puposes. both patterend fine at 18 yards from my 870 12 ga. slug barrel.

looked it up, and yep. you're right. thanks :)

625
January 16, 2008, 12:10 PM
Birdshot, buckshot, or a slug.....It don't really matter at close range because it's going to hit its target as a big ball of lead regardless of shot size.

Can you share some links that prove your assertion? What you say simply isn't true.

See this thread.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274993

ebutler462
January 16, 2008, 05:42 PM
625, you don't need a link. Just get your gun and fire it close range. At room size distances, you can prove it without looking for other people's opinions.

Tamara
January 16, 2008, 05:53 PM
Maybe if you're assaulted in your walk-in closet it will be a "solid ball of lead".

At 21', however, a cylinder bore shogun is throwing a pattern 6" across or more with most loads.

I agree that a #7 1/2 field load would beat harsh language as a self-defense implement, but my shotgun would only be loaded with it until I could get to Wal Mart to pick up some buckshot or slugs. (Truthfully, I'm not even all that keen on buckshot due to potential underpenetration issues. Hunting evidence has proven that the buckshot-loaded gage is not the thermonuclear death-ray my younger self thought it was.)

ZeroJunk
January 16, 2008, 05:54 PM
Like this. I did this about 5 minutes ago. Shot from 6 feet with a full choke. 7 1/2 shot. 2X6

Blew a pretty good hole in the ground behind the board.

That crap about a man being shot from 6 feet and only going in 1 inch is just BS


BTW, anybody want a different distance or choke, I'll do it tomorrow.

Tamara
January 16, 2008, 05:58 PM
Six feet?

Six feet?

Get mugged by fellow phone booth occupants much? :D

How about backing up to six yards and showing us that pattern. :)

ebutler462
January 16, 2008, 06:04 PM
zerojunk, it appears you and I are the only members that have confidence in small shot for HD. Thanks for proving the point. My Nova 20 gauge with #6 stands ready and able to take on any uninvited guests.

You proved it to yourself without having to depend on someone elses guesses. There are too many Rambo wannabes that have read the box of truth and too many books by the experts to realize that small shot is very effective at Hd ranges.

ZeroJunk
January 16, 2008, 06:07 PM
The six feet came from "when to use birdshot" in post number 2. That's the one I'm calling BS on.

I will give you 6 yards tomorrow. But, that is out of the limits of a home invasion. At least in my house.

ebutler462
January 16, 2008, 06:15 PM
zerojunk,

Most rooms are 12 feet wide. Two rooms would be 24 feet. Deduct the length of the gun, say 3 feet and the shooter's body, maybe 1 foot.

Fire a couple of patterns at 20 feet for us. I think it will be convincing. It is deadly and will adequately protect your home.

Tamara
January 16, 2008, 06:18 PM
I'm reasonably confident that I have fired more shotgun shells at silhouette targets and barrier targets inside 7 yards than most folks.

I'm glad you and your Benelli are ready for the Bad Guys. Here's hoping your targets sneak up real close before you have to shoot them.

Fire a couple of patterns at 20 feet for us.

That'd be roughly seven yards. The distance to the first firing point at the indoor range I worked at. He can save his ammo; I know what a shotgun pattern looks like at seven yards. God knows I've seen enough of 'em.

Seven yards is also the distance to the first target stand in my back yard. I've never used birdshot, buckshot, slugs, and turkey loads on sides of beef, water jugs, or sheet metal in the back yard from a Benelli, Mossberg, or Reminton.


Everything I know, I read on the internet... :rolleyes:

ZeroJunk
January 16, 2008, 06:42 PM
He can save his ammo; I know what a shotgun pattern looks like at seven yards.

No. Some of the others may not. Like the blind man, I would rather see it than hear tell of it. Will post tomorrow.

Tamara
January 16, 2008, 06:48 PM
Cool.

Always best to have your own beliefs based on your own experiences. :)

(You know, truthfully, it's your shotgun and you can load it with whatever you want, no matter what I or anyone else says. ;) )

HankB
January 16, 2008, 07:06 PM
The professional hunters I've spoken to in Africa prefer 000 buck when following up wounded cats in thick brush, if they're going to use a shotgun at all.

Forget about lions - they're too big to be relevant - but a leopard will probably average 150 pounds, give or take, making him man-sized. Granted he's faster and stronger than a human, but even the "traditional" load of SSG shot has failed to stop a wounded cat many times. PH's with experience prefer larger sizes - at least 00, and preferably 000, buck.

And that's for a man-sized kitty that's already been wounded.

Now, figure YOUR assailant is a 250 lb, steroid-enhanced biker wearing a leather jacket who just shoved a handful of PCP up his nose . . . do you really want to trust birdshot? Especially if he's a bit farther away?

I don't.

Unless the bad guy is so close that he's going to be singed by muzzle blast, (In my home, a 20-yard shot is possible) I simply wouldn't trust anything less than buckshot - in the larger sizes - for self defense.

Wuchak
January 16, 2008, 07:19 PM
The old myth about birdshot acting like a slug at close range is just not true. It acts like a bunch of really little lead balls impacting close to each other but not a single one of them has the required energy to get through a person to a vital organ reliably. A slug on the other hand is a big heavy chunk of lead that has incredible energy and will pass right through. Those pellets in the rear of a shot column might penetrate a little deeper than those that impact first because those hitting first could open a hole for them. Those first pellets will not however be impacting with anything remotely close to the energy of the front of the slug.

Here's another way to look at the shot acting like a slug theory. Beach sand is just very fine pieces of rock, mainly quartz . Would anyone seriously claim that there is a point where someone hit with a 1lb piece of quartz thrown at 1000fps would suffer the same wound as someone hit with 1lb of sand thrown at the same speed?

And here's another. You are laying on a bowling alley and someone is going to roll something with all their strength at your head. Would you rather they use a) a 10lb bowling ball or b) 10lbs of marbles assuming that the marbles would remain in a round cluster the size of the bowling ball until they reach you? Does anyone think they will create a similar wound?

ZeroJunk
January 16, 2008, 07:34 PM
It acts like a bunch of really little lead balls impacting close to each other but not a single one of them has the required energy to get through a person to a vital organ reliably.

Maybe it would be instructive for you to look at the picture of the 2X6 I just blew a hole through.

As I said in my first post, bird shot is not the best choice. But, if you think that the crack head is just going to shake it off, you are reading to much internet logic.

Early C.
January 16, 2008, 07:41 PM
I can honestly say I wouldn't want to be hit with bridshot at ANY range. That being said, I guess I just see it like this.

Beach sand is just very fine pieces of rock, mainly quartz . Would anyone seriously claim that there is a point where someone hit with a 1lb piece of quartz thrown at 1000fps would suffer the same wound as someone hit with 1lb of sand thrown at the same speed?

BlondieStomp
January 16, 2008, 07:47 PM
It's really not that complicated

Mass X Velocity = Momentum

Momentum and drag coefficient will be the key factors in penetration.

More momentum, more penetration.

Penetration is your friend in self defense with a firearms. Each pellet of #9 shot has much less momentum and penetrative potential than a 1 ounce slug travelling about the same speed. I don't get the apoligizing and rationalizing over birdshot.

ZeroJunk
January 16, 2008, 07:55 PM
I think if somebody hits you with a 1 pound sand bag at 1000 FPS you will have a very bad day. The amount of energy will be exactly the same as the granite. If you spread the shot or sand out so that the energy is spread out over time and area then the trauma will obviously be much less. So, the effect of bird shot diminishes very quickly compared to buck shot.

But, I'll bet I can still punch a hole through a 2X6 at 18 feet.

A 1 ounce load of 9 shot and a 1 ounce slug at the same velocity have exactly the same momentum.

Bill DeShivs
January 16, 2008, 07:56 PM
I know a man that was shot at 6-8 feet with a load of #8 birdshot. It blew out part of a lung. They picked the wadding off his spine. I would say birdshot works at close range.
BTW- it should have killed him, but didn't. He ran 35 yards before he collapsed. He was 1 minute from a hospital. He was full of alcohol and cocaine.
You just never know. If it had been buckshot, the wound would not have been much different-a little more penetration maybe, but he probably still would have lived.
I would prefer larger shot, but small shot is nothing to sneeze at.

Tamara
January 16, 2008, 08:57 PM
But, I'll bet I can still punch a hole through a 2X6 at 18 feet.

Having shot the same type of load at the same target from both distance myself, you may be surprised at the difference in the nature of the results.

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2008, 12:52 PM
OK, Remington Model 11, 28 Full Choke, Winchester Double X, 7 1/2 shot, 18 feet, Lowes model 2X6

Anybody want me to try anything else, I've got plenty of 2X6 scraps.

Rangefinder
January 17, 2008, 02:15 PM
For HD purposes, birdshot is going to make one heck of a mess out of whatever gets in its way just because of close range and the tight pattern of the shot--such as same-room distances. Pretty safe to say that point is well proven. But it will lose effectiveness rapidly once distance comes into play--such as firing from inside a room down a hallway, etc. I, personally, wouldn't hesitate to rely on my 870 with birdshot in a HD situation--in fact it's preferred over 0 or 00 in my case. Trailer exterior walls will contain #8, but the neighbors could be in trouble with 00. But in a larger house, especially with multi-level design, I'd be checking distances and angles first.

Early C.
January 17, 2008, 03:30 PM
OK, Remington Model 11, 28 Full Choke, Winchester Double X, 7 1/2 shot, 18 feet, Lowes model 2X6

Anybody want me to try anything else, I've got plenty of 2X6 scraps.

I have to admit, that is a lot more impressive than I thought it would be. ;)

From my bed to my front door is exactly 31' so I think I'll stick with what I have but it is nice to know that birdshot will work. Thanks Zero. :)

BlondieStomp
January 17, 2008, 04:10 PM
A 1 ounce load of 9 shot and a 1 ounce slug at the same velocity have exactly the same momentum.

Incorrect.

Each pellet of #9 is acting and moving of its own accord essentially, just flying near each other. The amount of momentum each individual pellet possesses doesn't coagulate into a larger mass because the pellets are close to each other.

Shooting a person with an ounce of #9 shot is hitting them with 60 or so pellets that each have 1/60th the momentum of a solid projectile weighing one ounce, assuming that both loads are travelling the same speed.

I understand that you're confused by the equal weights of shot, but once the pellets leave the shot cup they're no longer one entity, just ~60 of them near each other.

Army Alpha
January 17, 2008, 04:15 PM
Maybe I am missing it, but is there a reason why some of you are advocating #8.

Despite the board shooting tests that have been posted, maybe they are sufficient, maybe the test is unrealistic, who cares is my point?

Some of you have made this an argument about whether #8 is sufficient, which I dont think is the issue.The real question should be is #8 BETTER than 00 or 04. I think the answer is obvious for most 'normal' people (read smaller folk might be a different argument). Get the 00 and not have to worry or debate.

Think about it this way, if you knew someone was breaking in your house tonight, would you load you shotty with 00 or #8. Case closed.

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2008, 04:23 PM
I understand that you're confused by the equal weights of shot

The 585 or so number 9 shot in an ounce have collective energy exactly equal to the 1 ounce slug at the same velocity.

Are you trying to tell me that you think getting hit with 585 separate number 9 shot, one at a time, equals getting hit by the whole load in a 2 inch string? Come on.

The real question should be is #8 BETTER than 00 or 04

Nobody other than the clerk in the OP said it was.

tplumeri
January 17, 2008, 04:25 PM
Penetration is your friend in self defense with a firearms. Each pellet of #9 shot has much less momentum and penetrative potential than a 1 ounce slug travelling about the same speed. I don't get the apoligizing and rationalizing over birdshot


Point well taken, but not evrybody needs to fire slugs for HD.
I did a post some time ago that asked what folks loaded in their HD 12 gauge and why.
If i remember right, most common was a mixture of pellets and slugs.
My personal HD loads usuallyhave both #4 or 6 shot and slugs.
Rationale is a couple shots of pellets in case theres more than one intruder and a few slugs to finish the job.

Army Alpha
January 17, 2008, 04:27 PM
Which was the original question...so why all the arguing?

(oops I forgot, this is the internet where hypotheticals rule...I am going to go read a zombie attack thread :)

tplumeri
January 17, 2008, 04:32 PM
I am going to go read a zombie attack thread

YEAH! Off to Zombie threads!
BTY: whats the smallest caliber you can use to effect a one shot kill on a zombie? Assuming a clean head shot.

hey Penguin, are you reading this?
tom

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2008, 04:35 PM
The point I am making is that if all you have is bird shot you might want to go ahead and shoot the intruder rather than be killed thinking the 8 shot is going to bounce off at 10 to 20 feet.

YEAH! Off to Zombie threads!

Or he could wander off and troll somewhere else.

Tamara
January 17, 2008, 04:40 PM
The point I am making is that if all you have is bird shot you might want to go ahead and shoot the intruder rather than be killed thinking the 8 shot is going to bounce off at 10 to 20 feet.

...and that is a good point. Birdshot will punch a person's ticket. Just not as reliably as buck or slugs. BTW, did you try the test with an 18" cylinder bore as well? Not too shabby a pattern from that 11. How old is it?

Rangefinder
January 17, 2008, 04:45 PM
Think about it this way, if you knew someone was breaking in your house tonight, would you load you shotty with 00 or #8. Case closed.

As I think I already stated, I'd rather use #8, for the reason I already mentioned----I'd prefer NOT to punch my neighbor's ticket along with the intruders.

oops I forgot, this is the internet where hypotheticals rule

Internet, discussing reality---where conditions are very different, requiring sound judgement in more than just the "splatter factor" of a load against a hypothetical intruder.

NOW, case closed.

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2008, 04:48 PM
How old is it?

I don't know. It has the "suicide" safety. I figure late teens, early 20's maybe.

The barrel is stock. I have one that is backbored and sleeved down to .640, but I didn't think that would be fair.:)

Army Alpha
January 17, 2008, 05:21 PM
As I think I already stated, I'd rather use #8, for the reason I already mentioned----I'd prefer NOT to punch my neighbor's ticket along with the intruders.

Legitimate reason and I agree with you (and yours is an actual issue, rather than the vague preponderance about whether #8 is sufficient and this wasnt addressed at you), but 00 is also fine for people who have less worry about over-penetration issues. AND if that is not an issue, 00 is better in all areas for MOST people. On this I think we agree. Yours appears to be a unique situation not mentioned by anyone else so apologies if I did not fully acknowledge ALL presented situations in this thread and attempted to make a more general comment. I hope you feel validated now.

I think Zerojunk's point is well taken, I would rather come out blasting with my model 60 than naught but my dork in my hands. I just felt that this discussion was in need of re-direction.

billindenver
January 17, 2008, 05:34 PM
He then told me I should be using nothing but #8 shot for home defense.

If I were being attacked by birds I wouldn't hesitate to use bird shot to defend myself. And naturally if it were a swarm of shooting clays jumping me, #8 would be the ideal load. But, in the more likely event that a human were my home defense problem, I don't want him wounded, I don't want him crying like a girl while reaching for their sidearm....I want whatever I hit to come off or disentigrate. For that, I choose one of the buckshots...pick your flavor. If he ducks behind a door jamb, I want to be able to blow that jamb in half and still put a hurting on him. Bird shot is for...well...killing birds and it will not stop a meth head, or whatever assailant is in my home with near enough certainty for me.

Tamara
January 17, 2008, 05:43 PM
I don't know. It has the "suicide" safety. I figure late teens, early 20's maybe.

The reason I ask is that old shotties have forcing cones cut for paper shotshells and give patterns with plastic-hulled shells that are almost a full choke tighter than you'd think. This is why paper hunters pay big money for old 97s and 12s.

I know my '43-vintage Model 11 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2006/10/remington-model-11-very-belligerent_29.html) doesn't pattern anywhere near that tight at 6 yards with number eight shot. I'd be tickled if 3/4 of the pellets hit the 2x6. ;)

(Incidentally, every dead goblin story involving birdshot I can personally verify involved a 28-ish" fowling piece and a <10' shot. When all you have is your skeet gun and some birdshot, it beats using the ol' 870 as a club. :cool: )

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2008, 06:20 PM
This is why paper hunters pay big money

That's why I have it. I have one that will put 480 or so number 9's in an 8X8 target at 60 feet. I never said what I was going to use.:D

If I get time tomorrow I'll screw a full choke in a modern gun and see what it does.
I'll be quite surprised if it doesn't pop a hole through also.

BlondieStomp
January 17, 2008, 06:28 PM
Are you trying to tell me that you think getting hit with 585 separate number 9 shot, one at a time, equals getting hit by the whole load in a 2 inch string? Come on.

Last post then I'm done

If you were to launch those 585 pellets at 1000 fps at the same time out of your 12 gauge at a target, or one at a time at 1000 fps, or in any combination you choose, in the exact same pattern,that the shot cup fired pellets hit, the penetration would be the exact same.

The net effect would be very similar, the only difference of all of them striking at the same time would be the target at the receiving end would feel an impact slightly less powerful than the one that struck your shoulder when you fired.

tplumeri
January 17, 2008, 06:31 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261383


found the old thread which offers more solutions than anyone has problems!

I still think youre better off having a larger spray pattern that shot affords rather than slug as your initial shot(s).

I dont really think anyone really cares if you use 00, #4,6 or 8. youre still better off with a 12 gauge at the bedside than you are with a handgun. In the middle of the night, awoken from a sound sleep.......
I keep both w/i easy reach.

NOW, can we bring on the zombies?
:)

ZeroJunk
January 17, 2008, 06:43 PM
Last post then I'm done

At 10 feet the shot are tightly packed and as soon as the front pellet slows down at impact it has the ones behind pushing it. It will quickly become one mass as the shot just a few thousandth behind catch up.

Do you really think that one #9 shot would have penetrated that 2x6 by itself?

billindenver
January 17, 2008, 07:16 PM
Hmmm, I would think the increased spread of the shot would mean more air resistance and therefore less punch at the end. Or as my old race car mechanic used to say....aerodynamic drag is bad.

Tamara
January 17, 2008, 07:21 PM
If I get time tomorrow I'll screw a full choke in a modern gun

More instructive for our audience would be running that same birdshot load through a cylinder bore 18" or 20" modern gun.

I'm worried that less experienced folk might read these threads and think that their Mossenberger 500 riot gun is going to give a solid shot column with #7.5 low-brass WallyWorld promo loads at 20 feet. I think you and I both know that is not the case. ;)

rem870hunter
January 18, 2008, 07:41 AM
i read others posts and have my own opinions and thoughts.

but i know what i will use for the job.

humans and deer. #1 or 0 buckshot and 1 oz. slugs
coyotes #4 buckshot or #2 fine lead shot.
black bear 1 oz. slugs, and maybe 00 or 000 buck.
little critters like rabbit squirrel crows woodchuck. #6 or #7.5 fine lead. 1 and 1/4 oz. express or 1 oz. game loads.

birdshot is for birds. if you must use it. AIM FOR THE FACE.

its your home and you are defending yourself and your family . im sorry if this is offensive . but when it comes to intruders and rapers, shoot to KILL. should be applied not shoot to wound.

Wuchak
January 18, 2008, 09:09 AM
Maybe it would be instructive for you to look at the picture of the 2X6 I just blew a hole through.

As I said in my first post, bird shot is not the best choice. But, if you think that the crack head is just going to shake it off, you are reading to much internet logic.

Hi ZeroJunk, I know that you are impressed that you can penetrate 2" of wood with the birdshot. Can you please explain how exactly that translates into penetration into the human body? Tissue composed primarily of water will deform and absorb energy from the impact unlike wood, whose physical properties make it a very poor flesh substitute. (I have seen karate exhibits with people breaking stacks of 1" boards with their hands. I have never seen one where someone is actually able to cut someone else in half with their hand.) What is the conversion factor for inches of wood penetrated to inches of flesh or gelatin? I believe the FBI recommends 18" of penetration in gelatin. That means the only way the 2 x 6 test actually proves this is a good defensive load is if 1" of penetration in wood = 9" of penetration in gelatin. I would have to see the lab tests to believe this is true. Basically shooting a hole in a 2 x 6 is fun but without the penetration conversion information it is in no way a valid test of the effectiveness of self defense ammunition and the results of such testing should not be used to make a choice on which your life or the lives of others may depend.

billindenver
January 18, 2008, 09:21 AM
I look at it like this. Meth heads have been known to break handcuffs in order to get at the police officer who arrested them. In the process shattering both wrists and still able to put up a hell of a fight on two police officers afterwards. A guy like that takes an arm load of birdshot in the dark is going to keep coming. He will probably keep coming when buckshot tears his arm off as well but there is only one arm left at that point and he is bleeding out fast. In the dark, half asleep you are lucky to snap a shot at center mass, you will not likely have the head shot option and he could well have his head down while charging you or running for your kids room.
Will birdshot penetrate heavy clothes and a breastbone?

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong...

ZeroJunk
January 18, 2008, 12:46 PM
I know that you are impressed that you can penetrate 2" of wood with the birdshot.

I was probably impressed when I found out I could do it when I was 9 or 10 years old.

Per Tamara's request. Cylinder Bore, 18 feet. One is a #8 target load. The other is the same 7 1/2 high brass as previous test. None penetrated the 2x6.

Aybody is free to take from this what they will. Sometimes I assume things are common knowledge. Certainly understand the differences in barrels and chokes. A full choke high brass at close range even with bird shot is bad medicine. With a short cylinder bore it would not be nearly as effective.

Pattern your own shotgun and know what it will do.

625
January 18, 2008, 01:55 PM
625, you don't need a link. Just get your gun and fire it close range. At room size distances, you can prove it without looking for other people's opinions.


Why would I waste my time and money to prove what other people have already done? You obviously didn’t look at the link I posted which proves my assertion.

Like this. I did this about 5 minutes ago. Shot from 6 feet with a full choke. 7 1/2 shot. 2X6

I’ll remember that the next time a piece of wood attacks me.:rolleyes:


zerojunk, it appears you and I are the only members that have confidence in small shot for HD.

You guys can use a BB gun for all I care. My statement about birdshot not being capable of penetrating as much as buckshot has been proven time and time again. You are free to believe any lie you want, I could'nt care less. I never said bird shot would not kill or stop a person at close range, I only stated that it does not and will not penetrate like buck. Because of this, I choose to use buckshot. Hopefully none of us will ever get to find out what our load of choice does to a live person.

ZeroJunk
January 18, 2008, 02:13 PM
I’ll remember that the next time a piece of wood attacks me.

I'm trying to find anything useful in that.

Or, maybe you would rather be attacked by a gelatin block.

625
January 18, 2008, 03:15 PM
I'm trying to find anything useful in that.

Or, maybe you would rather be attacked by a gelatin block.

I'm not surprised you have difficulty understanding the difference between wood and ballistic gel. Let me explain it in terms you MIGHT understand.
Ballistic gel is used for testing because it closely simulates flesh in the way it reacts to being shot. Here is a little link you might find interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin

Get it now?

Musketeer
January 18, 2008, 03:24 PM
Sorry, birdshot at close range is not a "solid mass of lead" although it does sound dramatic to say so. It is a mass of small, light lead partials travelling at high speed.

Stopping, without the target choosing to give up, requires you to be able to shut down the CNS or do such horrific damage to the body so that blood loss causes him to shut down quickly (how quickly is debatable). Tho do either type of damage you need to reach deep down into your foe and either break bones and puncture organs (and major blood vessels) or sever the CNS. Bird shot is a bunch of light little pellets which react very differently than a cloud of the same mass and velocity comprised of larger pellets.

Lighter pellets have less individual momentum and are far easier to slow down and stop than larger and heavier. Birdshot does not RELIABLY penetrate deep enough to be depended on. If I had only it I would use it but I would hopefully have replaced it before I needed it.

ebutler462
January 18, 2008, 04:18 PM
Zerojunk, point proved. We are the only members that have confidence in whatever you went hunting with last.

Small shot may not be the best thing around but it will put a world of hurt on a bad guy. My 20 gauge Nova is always loaded with whatever I hunted with last. Currrently it is #6 Wallyworld promo loads.

Zerojunk, save your breath and your computer keyboard. Lots of Rambo wannabes to argue about what is best to kill someone with. Uninvited guests to my crib, beware. My little 20 gauge will put a hurting on you.

BTW, thanks for the photos and the tests.

625
January 18, 2008, 04:29 PM
We are the only members that have confidence in whatever you went hunting with last.

What were you hunting with that Wallyworld 6 shot?

Tamara
January 18, 2008, 04:50 PM
Lots of Rambo wannabes to argue about what is best to kill someone with.

There's only one person in this thread bragging about how "ready" they are...

You may want to change your tone.

ebutler462
January 18, 2008, 06:51 PM
I keep promising myself that I won't get involved in another of these HD threads. I guess I've examined too many bodies that have been sent to their reward with all sizes of shot. An ex-homicide cop ought to have better sense than to argue with the experts.

I'm out of this thread. You guys win this round. :cool:

Early C.
January 18, 2008, 07:46 PM
I pm'd a mod and asked them to put a lock on this thread.

Thank you all for the info but I didn't mean to start an argument. Sorry. :o

Johnny Guest
January 18, 2008, 10:26 PM
Is there ANY profit in saying the same stuff over and over?

If we weren't on page four, I might let it run a little longer. But we are.

Closed.

Johnny