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Glenn E. Meyer
January 14, 2008, 03:53 PM
So what, dear friends is missing in this discussion. From the NY Times today.

When Crime Was Always on Our Minds
By THOMAS J. LUECK
In the bad old days of street crime, an era most New Yorkers would think of as before 1990, it was a personal quandary and a public obsession: If assaulted, do I run, hand over the money or stand and fight? And should I carry a weapon?

They were the days of “mugger’s money,” or cash carried simply to placate a robber who might otherwise use a knife or gun. People flocked to martial arts classes for self-defense. For many, carrying a concealed knife or pepper spray became a prudent precaution.

Now, in a city that prides itself as being one of the nation’s safest, a bloody melee on a Harlem street is flashing New Yorkers back to the era of anticrime tactics. Just before midnight Thursday, the police said, Maurice Parks, 39, a subway motorman who had just ended his shift, was preyed upon by a group of muggers armed with at least one knife.

Mr. Parks, who had fended off an attack in Queens in 1994 and had studied martial arts, was prepared. After he was knocked down and robbed, he pulled a knife of his own, and fought back in a ferocious exchange that killed a man who may have been trying to intervene, and left two others — including Mr. Parks — hospitalized with bloody stab wounds.

The actions of Mr. Parks, who has not been charged with a crime, have prompted people across the city to go through the mental what-ifs that once were an everyday burden.

“I would have done the same thing,” said Diamond Torres, 26, a native New Yorker who said she was robbed when she was 13. Ms. Torres, who lives on the Lower East Side, said she carries a box-cutter knife for her own protection. Under city law, it is legal to carry knives with blades shorter than four inches, except for some that are specifically outlawed, including switchblades.

“I might be scared at first,” she said, “but my next reaction would be to defend myself.”

But Joshua Stokes, 28, a resident of the East Village who has been living in the city since 1999, did not share Ms. Torres’s concerns. “I don’t ever find myself in fear of getting mugged,” he said. If he were confronted on the street, he “would try to avoid an altercation,” he said, adding, “I would give them whatever I had.”

Although many details remain unclear — including who struck the first blow — the case involving Mr. Parks provided a grim reminder that violence escalates and can lead to unintended consequences. The police said that the man who was killed, Flonarza M. Byas, 28, was stabbed by Mr. Parks. Although Mr. Byas did not appear to have been among those who first attacked Mr. Parks, the police did not know whether he joined the robbery, was a bystander, or perhaps was a good Samaritan who tried to intervene, as his family maintains.

The police arrested Leandro Ventura, 15, on Friday on a charge of first-degree robbery. Another suspect, Edwin Bonilla, 18, was arrested Sunday on a robbery charge, and a third was in the hospital.

“While I don’t think people should carry knives, some undoubtedly do,” said former Mayor Edward I. Koch, whose tenure at City Hall, from 1978 through 1989, included the shooting in 1984 of four aggressive teenage panhandlers on a Manhattan subway train by Bernard Goetz. The case provoked passions across the nation, with some condemning Mr. Goetz as a vigilante, and others calling his action a galvanizing event for a city that had been too willing to accept a relentless rise in crime.

All four teenagers survived, but one was paralyzed. Mr. Goetz was convicted of illegal weapons possession, and served eight months in prison.

“I think Bernard Goetz was part of a national syndrome,” Mr. Koch said. “There was a feeling that crime had gotten so far out of hand that you could not depend on government to stop it.”

He added, “That feeling stopped in the early 1990s.” The case involving Mr. Parks “is an aberration, not a norm,” he said.

Reactions to the assault on Thursday night, which came after Mr. Parks was approached at 139th Street and St. Nicholas Avenue, differed widely. Some said they were surprised that anyone would even think of fighting back against armed assailants. Some praised Mr. Parks’s foresight in carrying a knife, and his courage in using it.

Kenneth Roberts, 57, a subway conductor who said he did not know Mr. Parks, said he was impressed that Mr. Parks had stood his ground. “When I heard that he fought back, I thought it was a good thing.” But, he added, “it’s sad that it’s still happening in this day and age.”

Mr. Roberts, a powerfully built man who stands 5 feet 11 inches, said he did not carry a weapon. But he said he believed he carried himself in a way that would discourage troublemakers.

“You walk upright,” he said. “You walk strong.”

Law enforcement experts say that there is no way to measure how many New Yorkers carry weapons like knives or pepper spray for self-defense, but that their prevalence in the city has all but certainly declined as street robberies and assaults have become less frequent.

Police data does not separate muggings from other forms of robbery, including bank robbery, but the incidence of all robberies has fallen almost steadily for more than 20 years. Compared with 1981, when the city reached a dismal point in recording 107,495 robbery complaints, there were 21,577 such complaints in 2007, the police said.

To a large degree, the experts said, people sense that a threat has been lifted. “I used to get questions all the time about Mace and knives and whether teens should carry these things around,” said Richard Aborn, president of the Citizens Crime Commission, a group that monitors crime and police policies. “I don’t anymore, and my sense is people don’t feel as much need for self-protection.”

And although martial arts training remains a popular pursuit for New Yorkers, their reasons appear to have changed. “In the early 1990s, people were training in all kinds of martial arts primarily for self-defense,” said Jason McCarthy, the owner of New York Jiu Jitsu, a martial arts school in Greenwich Village. Now, he said, “New York is cleaner and safer, and they tend to look for other benefits,” including exercise and camaraderie.

And the shift in attitude is warranted, Mr. McCarthy said, since even the most advanced forms of martial arts provide little protection against some armed assailants. “If someone is skilled with a knife, there is no martial art that gives you a real chance,” he said. “I tell people to run.”

Although it is now far more common for New Yorkers to carry iPods, some city residents said they do carry “mugger’s money,” usually a small amount of cash, sometimes kept apart from their wallet. But most said the practice was a vestige of a darker past.

“I don’t carry anything, specifically,” said Cynthia Rodriguez, 54, as she left her church on Friday night on 139th Street, only a few blocks from where Mr. Parks was assaulted the night before. “It’s a different climate, a different culture.”

Out of curiosity, Dave Moody, 35, a Harlem resident, made it a point to stop by the intersection where Mr. Parks was attacked. “I wanted to get a personal view of the place,” he said. He said he had always felt safe in the neighborhood, and “that hasn’t changed.” If confronted, he said, he would avoid a fight. “If I pull out a knife, it would just exacerbate it,” he said.

Law enforcement experts looking for parallels between Mr. Parks’s confrontation and that of Mr. Goetz 23 years earlier said there were few to be found.

Malcolm Gladwell, a staff writer for The New Yorker, included an analysis of the Goetz case in his 2000 book, “The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference,” as an example of how change can gain momentum swiftly across a broad spectrum of social phenomenon — from shoe fashions to crime rates.

“These two events are just not comparable,” Mr. Gladwell said. “The Goetz incident was when we hit rock bottom.”

“There was a spontaneous outpouring, with people calling him a hero,” he said. “We are so far from that now.”

Musketeer
January 14, 2008, 04:11 PM
There is absolutely no point in a NYC paper talking to NYC residents about NYC crime to even discuss legal handguns. The vast majority or residents don't want them and politicians will not allow them.

I found this more to be a piece about the changing perception of crime in the city from 20 years ago to today. Mind you the actual drop in crime from the 80s to today, starting in force in 1990/1991 (before Rudy... go figure) had to do with several items. It had to do with stiffer penalties (negative incentive and easy to directly measure), more police (again easily measured in comparison to other areas with all other items being similar except policing), and legal abortion (which can be directly measured from the reduction beginning right when those babies who if they were born would have advanced to teenage crime committing years not being there to commit the crimes and following 3 years later across the nations when abortion became legal nation wide. NY and other states which had abortion earlier than the rest of the nation saw the 90s crime drop start earlier, and perfectly correlated with how much earlier they passed their laws legalizing it). It had nothing to do with "innovative police practices" (which had no effect elsewhere like LA when police were not also increased by Bratten), gun laws (which were a failure even according to the CDC), economy (violent crime has been steadily independent of economic trends), or the end of the Crack Boom (which is still a booming market). Of course no media member or politician will ever mention all three reasons that crime went down...

Derius_T
January 14, 2008, 04:16 PM
I cannot understand the mindset of some people who would instantly roll over and give the mugger or attacker anything they want, in the hopes they will just go away. What is to keep them from doing whatever they want to you, once they see you are a coward and will willfully bend over for them?

And make no mistake, its not really about the money, watch, ipod, whatever they steal, although that is a very small part. The real issue is I refuse to allow another human being to force me to be subject to their whims. I will not put my life into the hands of another. God gave me my life, and no one but him will take it away without the hardest fight I can give them.

I have watched the mindset of americans, who were once respected and/or feared the world over for their willingness to fight, and the perception that every american had a gun and would use it, to the mindset of your average frenchie with a white cloth.

I just do not understand the apathy and cowardice of the current generations, nor can I understand their absolute hatred of those that will stand and fight, no matter the odds. Americans have become so soft that not only will most not defend themselves, but want the rest not to be able to either. And that leads to all the other "soft" thinking today, and why society is in such a downward spiral.....

Mainah
January 14, 2008, 04:50 PM
I have watched the mindset of americans, who were once respected and/or feared the world over for their willingness to fight, and the perception that every american had a gun and would use it, to the mindset of your average frenchie with a white cloth.

I just do not understand the apathy and cowardice of the current generations, nor can I understand their absolute hatred of those that will stand and fight, no matter the odds. Americans have become so soft that not only will most not defend themselves, but want the rest not to be able to either. And that leads to all the other "soft" thinking today, and why society is in such a downward spiral.....

I'd hardly call our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq "soft". It seems to me that they're as tough as nails.

Pointer
January 14, 2008, 05:07 PM
“I think Bernard Goetz was part of a national syndrome,” Mr. Koch said. “There was a feeling that crime had gotten so far out of hand that you could not depend on government to stop it.”

He added, “That feeling stopped in the early 1990s.” The case involving Mr. Parks “is an aberration, not a norm,” he said.

It would appear that the "Nanny gov'mint" still can't stop it... Mr Park was still accosted...as are many others everyday...
I'd hardly call our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq "soft". It seems to me that they're as tough as nails.
Oh so true... but, as in Viet Nam, the liberals still won't let them win... the liberal media won't publish their successes...And, therefore, their toughness is buried in the propaganda... had Bush and Bush been really aggressive in the wars on Iraq... who knows... we might have most of our men home and safe by now and a small contingent supporting a new Democracy...

But Saddam was merely one of a many headed hydra... and just lopping that head was never going to be enough... In WWII it wasn't until the massive bombing of Berlin and Dusseldorf and other cities that the war became winnable... and Gen. Patton would have won that war (Like Sherman) in considerably less years than were spent. (Because of political appeasements, to the French, British, and the liberals back home.

This is not intended to hijack the thred... only to show that devastation is the only correct way to bring down an enemy...

Whoever you are, if you want to argue... start another thread...I'll be there directly... :barf:

The Tourist
January 14, 2008, 05:15 PM
“If I pull out a knife, it would just exacerbate it,” he said.

Merciful heavens, that's the last thing we want to do--pizz off the guy who's kicking the crap out of us.

As for disarming ourselves, I have that problem right here at home. Many times my wife and my SIL drive on the Interstate to go see their Father.

I have to argue like hell to get them to take a firearm, a knife or even pepper-spray.

For some reason, they don't find a problem with defense when at home. Both of the women own pistols. But they will not take a serious role in defense at large. And I don't understand why.

Perldog007
January 14, 2008, 06:59 PM
I am in touch with this head in the sand syndrome, but have no understanding of it. Took my wife a year after our good friend and neighbor was gunned down by home invaders on our porch before she would take a gun safety class.

Now she has taken two basic classes and has a pt22 but usually keeps it in Brady condition - locked, unloaded and out of reach.

Seems like New York has the same syndrome. What really puzzles me is the whole SUV thing. It is acceptable to buy a large sports utility vehicle so you feel safer about hauling your kids. It must be acceptable to tailgate smaller cars with your SUV if they are not going far enough over the speed limit.

I say must be because I never drive under the limit and am always tailgated by SUVs'.

But it is then unacceptable to own a gun to defend yourself with. In spite of the fact that cars kill more people than guns, and many buy large trucks and SUVs' strictly as weapons. Weapons of intimidation. That will kill when you may not intend to do so. Puzzling.

Perhaps the SUVolken relieve their guilt by projecting their homicidal impulses and behavior onto the peaceable law abiding gun culture? Then they use denial to cause reaction formation and shrilly shout for the end or our culture. That's the psyche 101 explanation.....

chris in va
January 15, 2008, 12:48 AM
there were 21,577 such complaints in 2007

That still seems to be a fair amount, right?:confused:

Curtis(USAF)
January 15, 2008, 01:08 AM
With a gun on my hip, I get to decide the stopping point.

You want my money? Here take it.
You want my cellphone? Here, I'll get a new one.
Want my Ipod? knock yourself out, I doubt you'll like my music.
You want my car? Well, thats why I have insurance, I'm sure I'll like the new car I get just as much as I liked that one.

None of these simple, easily replaceable things are worth dying or killing over.

But my life is entirely different. With a gun on my hip, I get to say what you can and cannot take. You can't take my life. You can't take my family. You can't take my freedom. You can only have that which I give you. Nothing more. I may have to kill someone. I may have to make someones' mamma cry. I may very well be killed myself. But what ever happens, it will be because of me. My personal choices, my decisions, my voice.

Personal empowerment ain't just a weekend seminar. Its the capability to make your own decisions, and live or die by your own decision.

Rifleman 173
January 15, 2008, 03:34 AM
"Now, in a city that prides itself as being one of the nation’s safest, a bloody melee on a Harlem street is flashing New Yorkers back to the era of anticrime tactics. Just before midnight Thursday, the police said, Maurice Parks, 39, a subway motorman who had just ended his shift, was preyed upon by a group of muggers armed with at least one knife."

New York has NEVER been safe. Not in the daylight nor at night. No big city in America is safe at all. Ever since about 1960 or when the liberal court system was inflicted upon this nation, crime has pretty much run amok. Criminals laugh at the idea of being arrested, going to court or going to prison. Until we take the streets away from the criminals, take the courts away from the criminals and take the prisons away from control of the inmates/criminals then there will always be people who think that they can commit crimes and get away with it. I've talked to criminals who told me flat out that they made more money in 1 year because of crime than I could ever make in 10 years working "any honest job." To some of them it is a loss-profit situation in that they make lots of money, the profit, and then they do the time, the loss part of the equation. If the loss isn't too bad they'll do the time, let their money grow bank interest and come out rich men. My opinion of this whole thing is to arm EVERY honest man that we can and let them defend themselves from evil. If you want to see crime rates drop, kill off some of these bad guys. Kill off enough bad guys and they become extinct which means no more crime at all.

Musketeer
January 15, 2008, 09:42 AM
New York has NEVER been safe. Not in the daylight nor at night. No big city in America is safe at all. Ever since about 1960 or when the liberal court system was inflicted upon this nation, crime has pretty much run amok. Criminals laugh at the idea of being arrested, going to court or going to prison.

You have no facts to back up that statement. The truth is crime was rapidly increasing from the 60s through the 70s and 80s. By 1990 the prediction was for nothing but civil breakdown due to out of control violent crime. Forecasts had at a minimum a 15% increase with predictions spiraling upwards.

Then starting in 90/91 crime in NYC began to drop and do so rapidly. It followed across the nation by 93 and has continued to do so. The truth is violent crime in NYC is a small fraction of what it was 20 years ago.

Now I don't know what you consider safe. There are certainly areas of NYC I would consider unsafe, just like areas of rural Arkansas which are unsafe. Statistically though crime is down significantly and you have a lower chance of being a victim in NYC than in many many other cities and even suburbs.

At the same time NYC is packed with millions upon millions of people. All those people in a small area mean any violent crime is going to be known to a larger pool of people quicker. In addition when you have several million people in a small space the news will ALWAYS have a violent crime to cover because statistically there are just more opportunities for it to happen in the immediate area. That does not mean any individual citizen has a higher chance of being a victim than in another area.

I have often been in NYC. There are areas I would not go to, just like there are areas in suburbia and rural America I would not go to. I can not carry in NYC but that does not mean I am defenseless. Your first defense is your mind and I have avoided far more trouble through awareness and planning than from the hunk of steel I carry around normally.

20 years ago I wasn't interested in spending time in NYC, it was that bad. Now I have no problem doing so.

R W
January 15, 2008, 04:55 PM
Visited NYC last year, went on a bus tour that went through Harlem on a
Saturday afternoon, to have left the bus and walked along the street would
have shown great stupidity. Overall I enjoyed my stay in NYC and in general
considered it as safe as any city (I'm not a city person).I believe a strong
police presence goes a long way toward making NYC safe.
Properly enacted CCW licences could only enhance safety in NYC.

markj
January 15, 2008, 05:41 PM
I just do not understand the apathy and cowardice of the current generations

I will never call anyone that gives up their cash to a robber a coward. Some just dont like to get all shot up or stabbed. Why fight over petty issues like cash?

You want my money? Here take it.
You want my cellphone? Here, I'll get a new one.
Want my Ipod? knock yourself out, I doubt you'll like my music.
You want my car? Well, thats why I have insurance, I'm sure I'll like the new car I get just as much as I liked that one.

None of these simple, easily replaceable things are worth dying or killing over.


Words to live by.

Derius_T
January 15, 2008, 05:44 PM
Mainah wrote:

I'd hardly call our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq "soft". It seems to me that they're as tough as nails.

My post was in no way directed towards our troops. I never mentioned them. I was speaking of society and "soft" lawmakers in general. I have worn that uniform myself, and have nothing but the utmost respect for our soldiers.

However, I have NO respect for the politicians who hinder our soldiers at every turn, and cause them to get hurt or killed because of some ignorant red tape. I would almost hazard to say more soldiers have died or been put in jeopardy due to non-sense "rules" governing their actions than anything else. Let the battle-tested commanders lead, and politicians, of any stripe, stay the hell out of it.....

Derius_T
January 15, 2008, 05:51 PM
markj wrote:

I will never call anyone that gives up their cash to a robber a coward. Some just dont like to get all shot up or stabbed. Why fight over petty issues like cash?

Its not the issue of fighting or killing over the cash itself. But whos to say it stops at your cash? When they see you are ready to roll over, you have no guarantee they won't try taking other things as well.

Can you REALLY trust a guy with a knife, to just take the cash and leave? If they grabbed the cash and stabbed your wife or child as an afterthought, just to make sure you wouldn't be chasing them, was it worth rolling over then?

In my mind, if they have a weapon, and I feel I even have the slightest chance of taking them out and stopping them from harming me or mine, I'm going to try. How could I live with myself if I stood by and did nothing, and someone I love dies because of my inaction?

I know, what if they die BECAUSE of my action right? They didn't. If that happens, they died or I died BECAUSE OF THE CRIMINALS ACTIONS. He initiated it when he robbed us. It will forever be his fault for being scum. That is something you have seconds to play out and decide when it happens. Lets hope and pray that none of us EVER have to make such a choice.

Mainah
January 15, 2008, 06:55 PM
New York has NEVER been safe. Not in the daylight nor at night. No big city in America is safe at all. Ever since about 1960 or when the liberal court system was inflicted upon this nation, crime has pretty much run amok.

I've been to NYC many times, in all kinds of neighborhoods both day and night, it's pretty safe. I doubt that NYC was ever more dangerous than it was in the 1800s, long before modern liberals came along.

I travel to cities all over the country for work and pleasure, and I do find that I need to focus on situational awareness more. It's something that I can take for granted up here in Maine. Population density does mean more potential threats, but it's no reason to panic.

And what's the story here? A guy used a knife in self-defense, that's bound to happen now and again when you put eight million people on an island.

mvpel
January 16, 2008, 06:57 AM
Its not the issue of fighting or killing over the cash itself. But whos to say it stops at your cash? When they see you are ready to roll over, you have no guarantee they won't try taking other things as well.

http://www.wftv.com/news/11191742/detail.html?rss=orlc
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- A mugging turned into a murder early Wednesday. The innocent victim was only trying to put in a day's work before the attack took his life. The victim's friend said he did everything the robber demanded in a parking lot along Orange Blossom Trail near Sand Lake Road.

The victim's friend said a man, armed with a gun, jumped them in the parking lot next to the C & D Oriental Buffet. First he demanded money and then he started shooting. Davius Thelusma, 49, tried to run, but ended up collapsing outside the restaurant, where he died.

Samurai
January 16, 2008, 10:01 AM
New York City is a lost cause. Autonomy, accountability, personal responsibility, these things are GONE in that place. It is a giant bee hive, with all implications therein. We are witnessing the slow evolution of American society from a representative democracy founded in capitalism, toward a new system of society as-yet unseen in the world.

I hope it's a step in the right direction, but I'm doubtful...

Derius_T
January 16, 2008, 10:24 AM
mvpel, thanks for the news story. Just what I was trying to say. Sad and sickening. You just can't trust your life or safety to a criminal.

MyGunsJammed
January 16, 2008, 11:12 PM
I live, work, and play in NYC......

Generally it is safe, but in the event my life is in danger, I dont trust that the cops will arrive in time to protect me when my life is threatened.

I once was physically attacked off guard in my own house by a family member one time.....had that person been armed, I could have been dead and stiff by the time the cops arrived ....why? because it took them like 15 minutes to arrive.....

In addition, I have little respect for the new rookie cops that hit the streets.... they have their gun and badge and act like they own the world.
Its sickening as sometimes they talk and act like they barely made it out of highschool, or even completed 2 years of college.

As for the male cops? On many occasions I've seen them flirting with women on the street, or just double parking just for the heck of it.... it just ****** me off....



As for riding on the subways, I luckily have never been robbed or threatened in anyway, although occasionally I'll run into thug wannabes that act all tough, but in this case, I'll either mind my own business when the time calls for it, or I'll move to the next train, or I'll just stand tall, stand my ground and make sure that they know I wont just bend over w/o a fight.

As for neighborhoods, there are many neighborhoods where I dont feel safe in....and you wont find me there at night ever....


but anyhow....thats life in the big apple...

ShootemDown
January 17, 2008, 12:01 AM
I cant believe I read the whole thing !

anyway, yeah, NYC is not SAFE. it may be statistically safer than this or that, but fact remains criminals are crawling all over this city, nothing you can do about it you know... too many people.

I find that the low life scum of NYC goes as far as the subway and busses takes them. rarely do I see these scums in neigborhoods where it is accessablie by car only,

I wish all these scums would just float off into space, I am tired of having to deal with this stuff...

Just before, I got approached by a FRIENDLY panhandler.. the kind that strikes up banter and then asks for a "favor".. yeah, gave him a buck so he'd leave... next time no more money for them.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 17, 2008, 10:48 AM
Time to move. I grew up in NYC. I recently returned for business. My old neighbor has gone quite down hill. Just wandering around Manhattan using common sense was just fine.

I wonder, do you have firearms in NYC - Shootemdown, or is it just rhetoric?

If one felt so strongly, unless there are compelling family reasons or business reasons, I would move to a gun friendly area.

Pat Rogers
January 17, 2008, 11:29 AM
If you are the victim of a crime. your perception is drastically altered, and no matter the statistics, you are always seeing things one way.

NYC unsafe? Dude, i worked there from 73-93. It was a horror in the mid 70's, and with the explosion of drugs in the early 80's, it got really bad.

Now- you can take your family down Times Square with dollar bills hanging out of their pockets and probably do OK.
In 83 you couldn't walk down the duece without grabbing a few robbers, guns, assaults whatever.

It is real easy to hate NYC, especially from people who have never been there.:rolleyes:

tplumeri
January 17, 2008, 12:18 PM
Born and raised in NY. was travelling the subways to work between 1975 and 85.
"deserve what they Goetz" was on t-shirts, bumper stickers etc for a year after the shooting. If it were up to the majority of folks in NYC, Bernie would have never served a day!
It was after the shooting thet many New Yorkers realized that screwdrivers were being used as lethal weapons!
I traveled alot of less than desirable subway stops, sometimes with the nights receipts, heading to a bank deposit box.
theres alot to be said for walking tall and acting comfortable in your surroundings. I was usually the minority travelling the subways after midnight.and ive never weighed more than 170, no real marial arts, but i only had a problem once. It wasnt a true threat , just two guys with too much hooch getting "playful".
I was more worried one of them would fall on me....
anyway, Ive been out of NY since 1991 but i visit family once a year.
We pack nieces and nephews onto the Long Island railroad and head into NYC and go to places that used to make me nervous. Havent had a serious problem yet. Now, i dont take the family into known "war zones" (yeah, theres still a few), but we mostly go anywhere we want, for the most part.
NY will always get a bad rap, especially on forums where we pride ouselves on the right to carry. And from folks who have never lived there or visited regularly.
Most of the preconcieved notions are second hand. I havent seen any posts from someone who actually was mugged, beaten etc in NY.
Bottom line is, bad guys go after the weak, or those they percieve to be weak. This is true everywhere. there's still parts of wichita, kansas that i'm "uncomfortable" in and ive lived in Kansas for 10 years! (my permit is no good in wichita, can only carry a knife).
Sorry for rambling, but this thread brought back alot of memories.
There was a time that NYC was more known because of Bernie Goetz and Son of sam than for anything else. If you werent there at the time, you cant possibly understand it.
JMHO
tom