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View Full Version : Would you take a class from these guys????


Perldog007
January 10, 2008, 08:47 AM
There is a store/range that offers CCW and other training nearby. Have noticed that the staff is unarmed and always attributed it to insurance regs.

Then a clerk told me that it was a management decision to have everybody unarmed. The rationale was that if they were armed, anybody casing the place for a robbery would "come in hot".

Even if it that is inaccurate, have to question why you would employ somebody who would say that. If it is true I tend to disagree. By that rationale we are all safer unarmed. Somebody who finds out we are armed would likely "come in hot".

Would you take a class at this place?

benny27
January 10, 2008, 09:45 AM
It does seem kind of strange, but a concealed carry class is a concealed carry class. In my opinion they're really kind of a joke anyway all they really want is your money and a record of you having a permit. The class that I took we watched a 15min video on scenerios and took a written test which the officer practically gave us the answers. Then we had to shoot at a silouette target at 5 and 15yrds I think, it's been 7 years since I took the class. If you're looking to just get a permit go ahead and take the class. If you've already got a permit and want to take a special training class I would go ahead and take it, the fact the staff goes around unarmed is really pretty irrelevent a class is a class..good luck.

Derius_T
January 10, 2008, 10:11 AM
Hmm, I think I would have to disagree. A class IS a class, but the 'class' and experience of the person teaching the class will determine what you learn there.

I think personally, I would be more inclined to make sure I was getting the most bang for my buck, as it were. ;) Find a class where the instructors are credible, and knowledgeable, to make sure you receive accurate, helpful training. Carrying a firearm is very serious business, and you need to be trained accordingly. ;)

Glenn E. Meyer
January 10, 2008, 10:45 AM
Why does the staff have to open carry? I could have a staff with significant arms that are concealed (even with out obvious tac vests).

Don't get it.

The Tourist
January 10, 2008, 11:14 AM
Our local gun store has an armed owner. And actually, the reverse opinion exists.

Yes, a potential robber can "come in hot."

However, they are then faced with an owner/employee that they know will respond with deadly force.

Heck, it's easier, safer, and probably more profitable to rob a pizza delivery guy.

ragwd
January 10, 2008, 11:38 AM
I really can't imagine a gun store where the personnel wasn't armed. The gun stores and ranges I visit, some are concealed and some are open, but all are armed.
As for the classes, they are a product of the people giving them. Some are minimal and useful only in getting your permit. Others are very useful, in giving the knowledge needed for permit and stressing safety and some marksmanship. I got lucky and the 10 hour class that I took was great. I have heard others complain about the class they took was useless. Ask around before taking. Good luck with your class.
Oh yea, IMHO, don't stop at the ccw class, it isn't enough training for actual use. It is usually good for legalities to get permit. But you need to be able to shoot while moving, shoot from a kneeling position, shoot from flat on your back, shoot from sitting position and so on. All of these have a technique. Until you try these things you don't realize how hard they are. ooops sorry , rant over :D

Rogueone
January 10, 2008, 12:02 PM
here in VA, the class is mostly to make you aware of the Legal issues with carrying. There is a need to qualify at the end, but the class isn't to "teach" you how to shoot from CC.

Personally, my friend, I, his 12 yr old daughter, his dad, and 3 childhood friends from Missouri, all went to Omaha last summer to take a class in Practical Shooting for personal defense from the US Shooting Academy. It's a 7 day class, broken into 3 classes, so we took the first, 2 day course then, and are returning to part 2 this spring. To say it was worth it, would be the understatement of the century :) The way it has changed/influenced our range time alone was immediately noticeable when we returned.

There are many good schools like USSA around the country, and you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to spend time at one, or several of them. For gun owners, it really is the "ULTIMATE" vacation :) and if you have family members that at least like to shoot some, taking the "family" would make it the most memorable and enjoyable "family" vacation you'll probably ever do. There's so much excitement and anticipation when you arrive, so much to injest when the training starts, the shooting is almost non stop, other than reloading. The instruction points out so many things you would never think of yourself, and the mini competitions during the class can be so funny in how they turn out (my friend's 12 yr old daughter won the first such mini comp, and every one of us "men" was embarrassed and laughing our butts off).

If you can, take those types of classes with family and/or friends. it'll be memorable, and a lot more useful than the CCW class (other than the legal stuff the CCW class should be covering, since the CCW class is suppose to cover the laws of YOUR state :) ) also, a close quarters, force on force class would be highly recommended. that's what we are going to need to take next as the reality is, you won't always have time to get your gun out, or you might need to get away enough to get it out, so training in such seems to be a very strong requirement. plus, you get to learn how hard it is to shoot a real, moving person coming at you with a knife or other weapon.

Perldog007
January 10, 2008, 02:09 PM
Why does the staff have to open carry? I could have a staff with significant arms that are concealed (even with out obvious tac vests).


I totally agree. After many visits it occurred to me that they were unarmed or carrying small weapons in pocket or ankle rigs. The clerk volunteered the information when somebody was talking about a nice single action they saw on the hip of a clerk at a store in another state.

Most likely some piece of paper or another in my folder would get me my permit, but I haven't taken a class in a few years and believe you can always learn something. Have plans to take other classes, but since I am spending time and money want to get the most of it.

The mindset makes me wonder if they really even "get it" to the extent that it is worth giving them money.

BTW - RogueOne - the ccw class I took out at GIlberts (near you in NOVA) in 98 was an eye opener to say the least, and I felt l got more than what I paid for. But the instructor was a bit "unique", great instructor though.

jfrey123
January 10, 2008, 04:13 PM
There is a store/range that offers CCW and other training nearby. Have noticed that the staff is unarmed


Have we considered the fact that they're just VERY good at practicing what they preach? Just cause you can't see the gun, doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe the "official" policy of the management is to tell you they're unarmed, while in reality they're all packing double 1911's in thunderwear...

skidmark
January 10, 2008, 06:26 PM
here in VA, the class is mostly to make you aware of the Legal issues with carrying. There is a need to qualify at the end,

WRONG!!

OK, maybe the guy(s) running the class include some sort of range session, but the state regs do not require any qualification in order to get the CHP. All the state regs required is to be exposed to the laws regarding where you can or cannot carry concealed, and what the statutary law is regarding use of lethal force.

That being the case, if their certificate has previously been accepted by the Clerk of the Circuit Court, and their fee is reasonable, I'd take the concealed carry class.

If it was some other kind of class, I'd want to see them shooting the course(s) of fire and hear from previous students before I sign up. But that's pretty much how I decide who to take classes from anyhow.

stay safe.

skidmark

allenomics
January 10, 2008, 08:13 PM
It would depend upon the cost and credentials of the trainer.

Perldog007
January 10, 2008, 09:42 PM
Have we considered the fact that they're just VERY good at practicing what they preach? Just cause you can't see the gun, doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe the "official" policy of the management is to tell you they're unarmed, while in reality they're all packing double 1911's in thunderwear...


er.... YES. Try to remember I am not a complete noob, just in a new state where I ain't yet been licensed. This dog is an experienced SPO in public housing in D.C. and a seasoned RSO ( in virginia registered SOs' have pretty much same powers of arrest on duty as LEOs) in some nasty parts of VA outside DC.

Meaning I am pretty good at looking for concealed weapons on all types of folks. Not saying I can't be fooled, but don't think that is the case here. Some of the ladies there wear pretty flattering garments.

Any old timer will tell you spotting a bulge is easy, it's other tip offs that take more experience to spot. Don't think we are doing any good by discussing them in public though. I will let somebody else tell that tale out of school :D

Perldog007
January 10, 2008, 09:47 PM
but the state regs do not require any qualification in order to get the CHP

That was the drill in '98 when I got my VA CC permit. We did shoot but the instructor told my old lady to get rid of her target immediately (she did become quite proficient in time....) as it would not help her if brought up as evidence in his view.

She would not have qualified as an SPO even under the incredibly liberal D.C. requirements (240 of 300, K5 scoring 5 to 15 yards... 60 rounds generous time..)


She did get her permit though.

Hard Ball
January 10, 2008, 10:40 PM
No, I woild not take their course.

Rifleman 173
January 11, 2008, 05:51 AM
HUH??? If it is a concealed carry class, why wouldn't the staff/instructors be carrying concealed instead of in the open? I don't understand this one. Isn't the idea of carrying concealed to carry concealed? Why would ANY instructor teaching a concealed carry course be carrying out in the open any way? If you can't see it, then the guy has GOT to be doing something right. Are you getting the issue of general in-store open carry for insurance issues confused with concealed carry options? I mean, maybe the insurance carrier for the business doesn't want store employees carrying out in the open but doesn't care or deny them from carrying concealed. Did you check that end of it? I know one store where they may not carry out in the open at all BUT they all carry concealed guns on them. The idea is that it keeps some nut job from snatching a gun from a store employee BUT the nut job won't know that they're carrying concealed until the gun is actually needed. Sort of a camouflage issue for defensive reasons.

Perldog007
January 11, 2008, 11:47 AM
That is a possibility, that they are carrying covertly but I assure you it is remote. It is possible that the clerk who told me they had the unarmed policy was trying to mislead me. Why? I would not know.

Seems to me if the staff was unarmed a person working there would want to keep that quiet. If they were carrying concealed advertising that they were unarmed would not seem to accomplish much towards security in my mind.

Personally, i am not going to frisk them or seek a search warrant. I am simply taking my business elsewhere. Yes it is only a compulsory class that I could sidestep on account of documented experience.

The decision to spend time and money for a current local certification impels me to try and get value for said time and money.