View Full Version : Gun accessibility when counting out money at work
January 5, 2008, 05:17 PM
One of the main reasons for getting my CCW permit is because of my job. I've been working part-time at a local coffee shop in a city of 300,000+ for the last year and a half. We don't have horrible crime rate, but we do have our fair share of crime (especially robberies).
The establishment where I'm employed has about 10 employees working 3 shifts two at a time: AM, Afternoon, and Evening. We generally close at 10pm weeknights and 11pm weekends. 95% of the time, I work the closing shift, usually with one of the girl employees, but sometimes with one of the other 2 guys. When we close, it usually takes us 30-45 minutes to count the money, do dishes, etc. before we can lock up and go home. So for example tonight we close at 11, but we probably won't get out until 11:30-11:45pm. During this time, we are encouraged not to "kick" the customers out, but rather give them the impression that we're closing so they can pack up their laptops and things and leave. The hints we give them are things like turning the lights off (except the kitchen area), turning off the radio, turning off the big neon "Open" sign at the door, you know, subtle things like that. :D
However, we do not lock the doors, that way they can leave. I hate this policy of not kicking out customers, as it's a secruity risk we take. It would be very easy to rob us, especially since there's only two of us, one usually washing dishes, and the other counting the safe and registers. Usually, I'm the one counting the money, which takes about 20-25 minutes, including counting out the credit/debit card transactions. During this time, we keep one of the double doors locked, but the other unlocked so customers can leave. Sometimes a few friends of the other employee will come in after we've "closed" and hang out while we're cleaning/counting until we lock-up. Usually I don't mind becuase the girls I'm working with have nice friends and from a tactical standpoint, strength in numbers is good, and if there's a bunch of people inside, a robber would hopefully be deterred.
However, when the friends of the other employees start bringing other people with them to hang out while I'm back at the desk handling several thousand dollars in cash. :eek: , I tend to get uneasy, especially when some of them eyeball all the money I have through the doorway.
WOW, all that to say: I usually carry IWB under my cooking apron (which I keep tied down around my waist rather than around my neck). When I'm sitting at the back with my apron on, it is very difficult to draw my gun. I was thinking about during that 20 minute time-frame where I'm boxed in at a desk facing away from the doorway to the shop (with my only advantage being a monitor on the desk showing me the securitycamera views of the shop including the doorway), maybe I should keep my gun on the desk so that if a BG ever tries to rob us, I won't have to stand up and go digging under my apron. Should I just keep it on the desk for an easy access, or am I being too paranoid?
January 5, 2008, 06:09 PM
Not knowing all that is available, . . . but trying to help, . . . how about closing and locking the door? Not the outside door, . . . the one to the office where you are counting out the money. That would be my first choice.
Secondly, . . . I would probably have (I'm right handed) the office set up so my left shoulder would be towards the door. My firearm would either be on my lap, . . . or to my right under a folded newspaper.
Is there any chance of talking to the local LEO's with the idea that they do a drive through the parking lot at or about 11:15? Most bg's steer clear of places that seem LEO friendly, . . . and somehow, . . . they seem to know which ones those are.
And no one, . . . would know I had my weapon. I have often cringed at the thought of someone who knows I carry, . . . getting into a situation, . . . looking at me and asking if I have my gun, . . . or worse, . . . telling me to shoot the bg.
Best wishes, . . . may God bless,
January 5, 2008, 06:27 PM
Sadly, there is no door to the office. if you were to walk in through the front door and come up to the counter, you could look over the counter through the doorway into the kitchen, where there is a desk in the corner by the safe (behind the freezers). Like I said, people can be at the counter, and see me counting money (can't see the desk or what's on the desk, because of a small partition), but they can see me sitting there with large amounts of cash in my hands. Literally, someone could pull a gun at the counter and have a clear shot at me sitting at the desk. That's why having to stand and go for the gun under my apron isn't possible. It needs to be right there.
January 5, 2008, 06:37 PM
I decided to draw a rough layout of the shop so you can kind of visualize where I'm at, and how open I am.http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/benjam226/courtyardcoffee.jpg
January 5, 2008, 07:00 PM
Get a mirror and put it on or above the desk positioned so you can see who/what is behind you. As Dwight said keep the gun in your lap or on the desk out of sight. Having the local PD cruise the parking lot and maybe come in for a free cup of coffee ;) is also a good idea.
January 5, 2008, 07:29 PM
Any store that I've ever been in, including the one I worked at over the summer, had doors that locked but still opened from the inside. We would lock the door 10 minutes till closing time. This allowed customers to exit, but not to enter. I would encourage your boss/owner to install this type of door lock, especially if counting large amounts of money is involved.
January 5, 2008, 09:01 PM
Counting out money in sight of the public is STUPID.
Get a door installed, or create a private area not visible to the public.
Do you carry a wad of cash to the bank in the open?
January 5, 2008, 09:22 PM
While I appreciate the suggestions telling me to install doors, please make a note that I do not own this place. It's a part time job. I do plan to have a talk with the owner about making some modifications (esp. the policy of letting people in after hours.) I would rather lock up completely, and not worry about having to do closing procedures in secret.
January 5, 2008, 10:07 PM
Does the owner even know that you are carrying while at work? If not it may not be such a good idea. :eek:
January 7, 2008, 02:32 AM
If you are really this worried and no changes are possible to increase security, have you thought of changing jobs ?
January 7, 2008, 08:04 AM
Hook 686 stated;
If you are really this worried and no changes are possible to increase security, have you thought of changing jobs ?
There's a lot of things you could do if it were your place, but it's not. It's not a CEO position. If the owner won't secure the place, he/she probably won't do much else for you.
A part time job factored into your CCW???
NOT a dig on LEO's here, but people are people. I managed a pizza place a thousand years ago, going to school. I often gave the local cops a small slice when they'd come by. Not a "bribe", I did it for the postman too. more of a "thanks for being around" deal. BTW - it was the owner who started this. It was nice to have them park in front of the place at night. Going for the bank drop? make a call & they were there in five. This would probably be frowned upon today.
Why not leave a bleachy, stinky mop out front smelling up the place after closing? Turn up the lights, play some annoying music, and talk about your grandma's foot operation.
What really frightens me is those friends of other employees you speak of. That's a huge risk.
However, when the friends of the other employees start bringing other people with them to hang out while I'm back at the desk handling several thousand dollars in cash.
That'd get to anyone. You need a trip to the bank drop - NOT a drop safe, when there's more than a thousand in the store. That's like walking up to a clown holding a squirt bottle and asking for water.
January 9, 2008, 01:46 PM
Here's how I see things....
Closing time is CLOSING TIME.
It's not the time for folks to be hanging around for a chat.
I would not count any money until every single customer is out, and the doors are locked.
Another good idea is to count out most of your drawer about three to four hours before closing time, and then have a police escort travel with you (or a coworker) to a bank night deposit box.
That way, at closing time, you will have alot less to cash on hand.
January 14, 2008, 03:28 PM
You have given enough hints that I have a good idea of your exact location of work ;)
I would advise againse leaving a gun anywhere visible in the open, because it would allow others to know about you having a gun, and also it would not be in your full control.
January 14, 2008, 04:02 PM
Get the local LEO's used to stopping by for some free coffee just after closing.
January 14, 2008, 04:04 PM
At the very least count it in the corner of the kitchen not visible from the shop (diagonally from the desk) if the walls you drew are 'solid' (as in not glass).
January 14, 2008, 04:41 PM
The owners idea of letting people be in the building after business hours is a terrible security risk. You should really talk to him about it. Anywhere I worked as a young person where I was in charge of counting/depositing cash, when it was closing time, ALL customers were politely told it was time to go, ALL entrances/exits were locked securely, and physically double checked, and then and only then did the money come out, the till/safe come open, ect.
You need to think of your own safety. Anyone who knows how this place operates knows how easy it is to rob you.
January 14, 2008, 07:09 PM
Mopping the floor with a mixture of ammonia and bleach (tiny amounts it is very poisonous to inhale the fumes) will get everybody out. I do not advise this.... but saw a frustrated busboy clear a Denny's in about ten minutes with this technique.
Personally I think you are right to evaluate your situation. Sounds to me like a quicker access to your defense tool might be a good idea. I too have worked for those without a clue about security. Seems like in our current world nobody thinks it will happen to them. Usually they are right.
Take comfort in the fact that you have a legal means of defense and keep analyzing your situation as you have here. Make a plan. A mediocre plan assertively implemented will work better than a great plan executed poorly.
January 14, 2008, 07:26 PM
move the desk to the other side if the kitchen where it is hidden from view of the general public in the dining area. if they can't see the money and you have a monitor to see their activity you should have plenty of time to draw if need be
January 14, 2008, 08:39 PM
Depending on what you're carrying, it sounds like an ankle holster might be an option. Then at least you can speed up your draw without having to worry about leaving the gun in plain sight.
Can you rotate the desk 180°?
January 14, 2008, 09:27 PM
Mopping the floor with a mixture of ammonia and bleach (tiny amounts it is very poisonous to inhale the fumes) will get everybody out.
How right you are (personal experience), but who's going to empty that bucket???
January 18, 2008, 05:29 PM
Under these circumstances I believe it is just a matter of time until you have a problem. I ran a recycling center for years. Essentially I handed out cash to neer do wells that would bring in copper, aluminum, etc. for recycling. I had some guys that would bring in pick up loads and I would pay them thousands in cash. At any given time, I would have as much as $10 grand in my pocket. One thing I did I believe helped keep me from being victimized, was to get the word out that I was a good guy and that I loved to shoot things. One day in the back of my shop, I fired 9 rounds from my 1911 into bailed cardboard in front of some of my "customers." From there on I was known as crazy Jim and the word on the street was to leave me alone.
I digress. The one suggestion I have may come as a shock to the business school grads is that you do not HAVE to count down the register as soon as you close the door. The next morning will do just fine! JMHO
January 27, 2008, 04:36 AM
unfortunately, with most modern businesses, (at least where i work) we have to count the tills to get the deposit total, to enter into the POS system to run daily diagnostics (logging transactions and member info), this takes 3 hours, and must be done at night, since it can't be done in the morning.
January 27, 2008, 06:01 AM
The free coffee for cops at closing time idea sounds like a winner.
January 27, 2008, 09:15 AM
"Mopping the floor with a mixture of ammonia and bleach (tiny amounts it is very poisonous to inhale the fumes) will get everybody out."
that's a good way to get a bunch of nice chemical burn in your lungs. don't worry, you won't smell anything because your nasal passages will be burned out pretty quick too. i suggest you not try it.
January 27, 2008, 11:08 AM
I was thinking about during that 20 minute time-frame where I'm boxed in at a desk facing away from the doorway to the shop Can you count the money somewhere else other than at the desk? Like perhaps on a counter away from the sightline of the doorway? Best would be where you are behind something, but can see out the doorway over it.
I usually carry IWB under my cooking apron (which I keep tied down around my waist rather than around my neck).Remove the apron when counting the money? Or is that your only concealment garment? If so, maybe go to the bathroom and change into "street clothes" that allow easier access.
Does the owner even know that you are carrying while at work? If not it may not be such a good idea.I'm sorry, but don't ask, don't tell. Concealed is concealed. These days employers are only concerned with CYA, avoiding lawsuits and not the security of their employees. If you get shot by some lowlife, you're replaceable. You need you 'C' your own 'A'. As long as you are not breaking any laws, the worst that can happen is you'd be fired if caught. If you are a good employee, they may just slap your wrist and say don't do it again.
However, when the friends of the other employees start bringing other people with them to hang out while I'm back at the desk handling several thousand dollars in cash. I tend to get uneasy, especially when some of them eyeball all the money I have through the doorway. Talk to your co-workers about that. Mention to them that it may not be a good idea for their own safety to have a bunch of people coming around, seeing the cash after hours.
Be diplomatic about it. Say that you have no problem with their friends (even if you do), but that you are concerned that someone will mention what they saw to someone else who may not be trustworthy. I have the same conversation with my friends about my gun ownership.
If you are robbed, don't try to be a hero! Your sidearm is to protect your life, not someone else's money!
January 27, 2008, 12:37 PM
Mopping the floor with a mixture of ammonia and bleach (tiny amounts it is very poisonous to inhale the fumes) will get everybody out. I do not advise this....
Absolutely, positively do NOT try this!!! Every year, there are recorded fatalities from people doing this! The effect is instant and violent, and only a few minutes exposure is sufficient to kill.
January 27, 2008, 12:44 PM
Good point, I should not have posted that even jokingly - but I have left a Denny's when that was done. Also knew a lady who expired while cleaning with that. She had been doing it for decades but it caught up with her.
Individuals vary in sensivity. It does not take much.
Still I think the OP's best bet is to have the weapon as handy as possible when doing the count, especially given the layout. When I was a bank Guard in D.C. the afternoon saw a lobby closing for counting, putting money in and taking money out of the Vault. Always answered the door with gun in hand during that time, with the support of the less than pro-gun management.
January 27, 2008, 12:52 PM
As I said before, why not discuss it with the owner that you think this is a problem and get all the people out? Any place i managed where the count, credit receipts, POS, ect had to be done at night, once business was done, then I made absolutely sure all customers were gone. Then I did a physical walk-thru and checked all the doors, made sure everything was secure, ect, then and only then did the till or safe come open.
Its literally ASKING to be robbed to get wads of money out in front of people. All one of them has to do is tell one of their buddies, "Hey, this guy always has loads of money, and gets it out when you can see it...."
Not a pretty picture.
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