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tuckerdog1
January 5, 2008, 01:20 PM
Okay, for me, this would be unlikely. Would almost have to be the dreaded incorrect address, or some "prankster" giving false info to the police.

But say it happens. I have no beef with coorporating with the police. But with home invaders sometimes posing as police, I want to be positive it's the real police on the other side of the door.

So, can I expect a little patience from the police, when I answer through the door I want to verify they are, who they say they are? And how do I best go about that verification? Call 911 and ask what? Names, badge #s ?

Tuckerdog1

David Armstrong
January 5, 2008, 02:51 PM
You can expect a little patience, but not a whole lot. If the police think you are stalling them for any reason, prepare to get run over. As for verification, ask for an ID and a copy of the warrant. Few home invaders will go through the rigamorale of getting LE uniforms, faking IDs and warrants, etc. so I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's more likely they would pose as delivery people, someone in need of help, etc.

Creature
January 5, 2008, 03:13 PM
Few home invaders will go through the rigamorale of getting LE uniforms, faking IDs and warrants, etc. so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Unless of course he has something they want which would be worth the rigmarole of dressing up...either way, expect little/no patience.

Playboypenguin
January 5, 2008, 03:19 PM
I am not sure about everywhere but when I was in the LE line of work search warrants required uniformed officers be present. There were rules about "reasonable and verifiable" presence or something like that. The plain clothes guys always called the uniformed guys to accompany them on warrant searches.

This must not be the case everywhere since I see one or two plain clothed cops serving search warrants on TV shows all the time. :)

David Armstrong
January 5, 2008, 03:27 PM
Unless of course he has something they want which would be worth the rigmarole of dressing up...
Sigh. Yes, there is always the "unless" or the "if" or the "maybe" factor. But I'll play--can you give a single example within the last 25 years of a criminal home invasion being conducted by BG invaders dressed as police officers anyplace in the U.S.?

zoomie
January 5, 2008, 03:39 PM
I didn't search long enough to find home invasions, but "playing dress up" is a very common theme. And I don't think a home invasion is any worse than a mugging.

These guys dressed as prostitutes, bought police handcuffs, and robbed multiple people in public
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE5D91539F934A35752C1A9659C8B63

These two LAST WEEK bought Sheriff outfits, outfitted their truck with lights, bought fake badges, and then pulled drivers over.
http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/122952

There's no shortage of people willing to outfit themselves in any way necessary to achieve their goals.

tony pasley
January 5, 2008, 04:48 PM
New York City A rapist dressed up as a Fireman to get his victums about 2 years ago.

Tanzer
January 5, 2008, 04:58 PM
If they step on your face, they're cops. If they run, they were crooks. :D

vox rationis
January 5, 2008, 05:05 PM
Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system. Now if they manage to produce all of these things, well I suppose it is safe to say that they are the real deal and it is probably safe to open the door, after putting the armament safely away :D.

Creature
January 5, 2008, 07:27 PM
Sigh. Yes, there is always the "unless" or the "if" or the "maybe" factor. But I'll play--can you give a single example within the last 25 years of a criminal home invasion being conducted by BG invaders dressed as police officers anyplace in the U.S.?

Sure!

http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/newsreleases/C7A81376AEDDAD41852571790061BEE4

brickeyee
January 5, 2008, 09:06 PM
Must be a pretty bad location if there is even the chance of the police showing up.

Try moving to a safer place.

TRiCoN45
January 5, 2008, 09:13 PM
Good question! I always wondered myself.

David Armstrong.....you should put some ointment on that cause it looks like it burns. Hahaha jk. I would suggest totell them you are then calling 911 to verify that the warrent/cops are legit. Not very long ago there was a period of time where BGs here playing dress-up as cops and pulling people over with lights and all. While being pulled over, the police said if you feel uncomfortable about anything you should call 911 immediately and the dispatcher will radio the cop in that location to confirm if indeed it is a cop and/or pull over in a well populated and lite area. When I heard this on the news I questioned the officer's patience in following the driver off of the freeway, down a few streets then finaly stopping at a gas station. But I guess better him ****** off at you then having some dude tie you up, rob you, kiddnap you, kill you, and burying you.

Jay1958
January 6, 2008, 12:03 AM
Fake DEA Agent Nabbed in New York

For drug dealers in the New York City area, the armed and violent Tony Clanton was their worse nightmare when he showed up at their door with a search warrant and DEA Special Agent credentials. The problem was the DEA badge and the search warrant was fake and Tony Clanton was anything but a federal agent.
Clanton, 34, was arrested last week and charged with impersonating and federal agent, drug possession, gun possession and armed burglary.

"The DEA Badge this individual was carrying was fake, but the charges he faces for robbing homes, stealing drugs and terrorizing the community are real. Impersonating a federal agent is a serious crime and will not be tolerated. New Yorkers can rest assure that law enforcement will weed out and place these individuals in jail – where they belong," said DEA special agent John P. Gilbride.

When New York Drug Enforcement Task Force officers arrested Clanton at his home, the found 124 grams of crack/cocaine, a Glock 9 mm handgun, two .380 weapons, five hundred rounds of ammunition, a police scanner, a bullet proof vest, handcuffs, an MTA parking permit, a $10,000 Rolex watch, drug paraphernalia, a fictitious DEA badge and other law enforcement credentials (pictured) with Clanton's photo under the name of Dennis Condon.

"Is of special concern when individuals masquerade as law enforcement agents to commit crimes. It increases the potential for danger and violence that dedicated officers encounter daily," said New York Special Narcotics Prosecutor Bridget G. Brennan.

Example #2 - here is a case of a home invasion / murder of a licensed FFL01 dealer by criminals with 'FBI' hats and shirts

In January of 1996, Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee entered the home of Tilly, Arkansas gun-dealer, William Mueller. Dressed as FBI agents, Kehoe and Lee hid until the Muellers came home. They methodically taped and handcuffed the hands and feet of William, his wife Nancy and their eight year-old daughter Sarah. They then tortured the Mueller's with cattle-prods and eventually killed all three by duct taping plastic bags over their heads and suffocating them. The bodies were then dumped into an Arkansas bayou and Kehoe and Lee bragged to others that they had put them on a "liquid diet." Initially, it was believed that their motive was robbery as Kehoe and Lee got away with a trailer full of guns, ammunition, gold and various militia papaphenalia that the Mullers sold at gun shows.

In the second example, they broke in and hid in the victims home, but they went to the house originally dressed in 'FBI' hats and t-shirts in case the victims were at home...

IdahoG36
January 6, 2008, 02:44 AM
perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system.

At which time your door would be knocked down and you would be tackled and cuffed, or if you're holding a weapon, maybe even shot. As stated earlier, the police will think you're stalling because you have something to hide, and will waste little time gaining entry to your residence.

Wildalaska
January 6, 2008, 02:54 AM
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.

WildopenthedoorandasktocallyourlawyerAlaska TM

OldShooter
January 6, 2008, 05:56 AM
Quote from Playboypenquin

"This must not be the case everywhere since I see one or two plain clothed cops serving search warrants on TV shows all the time."

Which are the shows you get your research from?

Playboypenguin
January 6, 2008, 05:58 AM
Which are the shows you get your research from?
All those "Law and Order" type shows and the like that keep coming on in the background late at night when I am too lazy to change the channel after something I was watching on TIVO finishes. :)

Tanzer
January 6, 2008, 07:43 AM
Quote Playboypenguin;
All those "Law and Order" type shows
Aside from fictional shows, I've seen it on reality shows like "COPS". They show up in T-shirts and baseball caps lettered with "X"PD, tapered slacks and black sneakers. Not too hard to imitate. Of course, they also have a guy holding a camera with a spotlight and foam-tipped microphone.

tuckerdog1
January 6, 2008, 08:08 AM
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.

Wildalaska ,

I have a good friend, who is very anti-gun. She used the same argument with me the last time we discussed her keeping a gun in her house for protection. The argument then however was a general breakin, not a warrant being served. But in either case, the odds are very small. But you risk everything if you don't at least prepare to deal with it, should it happen.

Tuckerdog1

Creature
January 6, 2008, 09:03 AM
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.

Tell that to these people: http://www.nbc4.com/news/13473498/detail.html

Or how about this fellow (is a minister "legitimate" enough?):
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/aug/28/psl-couple-bound-robbed-gunpoint-men-dressed-polic/

Statistics...

First thing I learned in statistics class was that people who start bringing up statistics are usually manipulating them to show whatever they want to show. Statistics lie.

AirForceShooter
January 6, 2008, 10:33 AM
Stay at he door in full view of the LEO's
Don't let them in and ask for the phone number of their supervisor.
Call on your cell. Don't get out of their sight.
Tell them what you're doing and let them hear.
Hope they wait for you to get the call done and verify their ID's

Next step is going to be a bunch of very mad LEO's in your house.
Ask to see and read the warrant.
Shut up!!!

AFS

Globug
January 6, 2008, 11:34 AM
As a Deputy US Marshal on a Fugitive Task Force, who serves warrants every day, I'll give you my opinion..

I think you should probably defer to the thought that any real-officers are going to be very noisy, and most often work during the normal 8-5 working hours timeframe. I don't think you could ever expect warrant service after 9:00 pm, or before 5:00...

The officers serving the warrant could be from the US Marshals, DEA, ATF and the local PD may know nothing about the warrant. As often as we ask for the local PD to assist us, we also serve warrants on our own and the local PD has no idea we even came to work today.

There is no "hotline" you can call to determine if they are real cops or not.

The standard protocol (except for rare no-knock warrants) is to knock and announce "POLICE, OR "POLICE WITH A WARRANT" very loudly, then wait a "reasonable" amount of time that it would take for someone to answer the door..in most cases 30 seconds to 1 minute...maybe less depending on the agency, the officers, or the person/property the warrant is for. If they are worried that some child **** vendor might erase his HD, or the meth is going to get flushed, that waiting period at the front door may be very brief, it only has to be long enough to be "reasonable", unless there is exigency because the officers fear that evidence is being destroyed etc..

If no answer, to door gets kicked/rammed...

I know this is a pro-gun, pro-defense-of-my-castle, right-to-bear-arms website (so am I for the record), however, you better not be standing there with your GLOCKTALK COMMEMORATIVE GLOCK 17 in your hand when they come through, because they WILL NOT wait for you to raise it, having it in your hand is justifiable "intent" to shoot you and ask questions later and the courts will lean in their favor.

Officers are trained nowadays, not to wait until the perp raises the gun in their direction. If I'm doing a felony traffic stop and the driver grabs a gun from the glovebox, I'm not waiting until I can see down his barrel before I start shooting. The driver reaching for the gun displays "intent", and again, the court will lean in the officers' "good faith" assertion that the driver displayed "intent".

Same thing goes when serving warrants. If we knock and announce, and then kick the door and on the other side is a guy with a gun in his hand, he's most likely getting shot right there, whether he raises it or not.

Just some thoughts....

Creature
January 6, 2008, 12:52 PM
I have always wondered why warrants ever get served at a place of residence. Granted, some warrants just absolutely must be served at the place of residence. But it seems to me that it is much safer for everyone involved that if you want to grab someone, grab them while they are in their car or when they are standing in the driveway...or at least outdoors somewhere.

I say this because when you kick down a door to find someone, you will be forced to make a split second decisions when you actually make contact with anyone inside the residence...and when confronting the fugitive. Many times you wont/don't know whether anyone was able to arm themselves during the entry process until you can actually see his/her hands.

When a warrant is served outdoors, you can get "eyes on" the fugitive before actually making contact with that person. Controlling the situation is much easier than say if you have to search a house for the person.


however, you better not be standing there with your GLOCKTALK COMMEMORATIVE GLOCK 17 in your hand when they come through, because they WILL NOT wait for you to raise it, having it in your hand is justifiable "intent" to shoot you and ask questions later and the courts will lean in their favor.

Also, this statement bothers me greatly.

tuckerdog1
January 6, 2008, 01:12 PM
The whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation. For someone like myself, who has zero reason for the police to be at their door, there should be suspicion if some one claiming to be police comes-a-knockin.

So if I just play the odds that it really is the police, and get it wrong, I could be toast. Or if it really is the police, but I'm not sure that's the case & they bash in the door, and being of a mind to defend myself, I'm armed, I either shoot a LEO, get shot myself, or both.

Tuckerdog1

Wildalaska
January 6, 2008, 01:48 PM
Tell that to these people: http://www.nbc4.com/news/13473498/detail.html

Read that again

First thing I learned in statistics class was that people who start bringing up statistics are usually manipulating them to show whatever they want to show. Statistics lie.

Lightning strikes are a statistic too. We don't go around wearing tinfoil shields do we?

Don't let your own personal worldview interfere with reality.

WildlistentoglobugAlaska TM

kgpcr
January 6, 2008, 02:10 PM
Dont let them in... Thats funny if its a real warrant for anything to do with drugs your door comes down and they come in. they dont want to let the perps flush it all down the toileet. they also dont want to give the perps time to barricade in so they can flush more. If they are cops then your best bet is let them come in and deal with it in court. resisting arrest or them doing thier job is never a wise thing to do

tuckerdog1
January 6, 2008, 02:40 PM
If they are cops then your best bet is let them come in and deal with it in court. resisting arrest or them doing thier job is never a wise thing to do


Not a problem at all. For real police, they'd get 100% coorporation. Just want to be sure that's who I'm dealing with before I drop my guard.

Tuckerdog1

Thunderhawk88
January 6, 2008, 02:56 PM
Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system. Now if they manage to produce all of these things, well I suppose it is safe to say that they are the real deal and it is probably safe to open the door, after putting the armament safely away

I am sure they will waste time complying rather than knocking your door and your butt down. If they were to come, I'm sure there wouldn't be a polite knock and time for you to answer.

Creature
January 6, 2008, 03:17 PM
Read that again

I did. What is your point? Does appearing to be targeted mean they are guilty of something? Does that mean they CAUSED the invasion by police impersonators?

The point I was making is that BG can and DO sometimes dress up as police to do a home invasion.

If BG's are going to knock at MY door all dressed up as cops, (and using your words, I am pretty sure that I am a "legitimate" person), I would say that I have been targeted.

So, again...what's your point?

Tim Burke
January 6, 2008, 04:04 PM
But if you've got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in.With apologies...

Erik
January 6, 2008, 04:27 PM
In no particular order:

Warrants are basically for people or stuff. Residences contain people and stuff. They are also a predictable location a given suspect will start and end the day at.

LEOs will usually be quite getting into position, and as loud as possible upon getting there.

There is no requirement for uniformed officer presence.

There is no practical way to verify legitimacy of a given group of LEOs. The time frame involed is thirty seconds to a minute or two from knock to breach. The time frame ends when immediate access is denied. Denial of immedaite entry typically equals immediate breach, folks.

What to do? Come to the door or window, verify what you can see, usually an entry team, perimeter team, and extras. At the point your observed your time line begins to shrink, not that it was very long to begin with. You basically have slightly longer than how long the entry team estimates the average person can get to the door from where ever you are observed.

"Knock" warrants are common place, deemed low risk compared to high risk ones, and are typically not performed by tactical teams. The knock comes before the breach, hence the name. Compliance via opening the door excludes the breach.

Upon opening the door, conversation doesn't exactly ensue as imagined. The entry team will enter. Immediately and quickly.

I echo Glowbug's comments on time lines, training, the reasonable standard, the what is likely to happen to folks with weapons in hand.

---

The "no-knock" warrants are deemed high risk, and are typically conducted by tactical teams and/or specialty teams.

It is essentially the same but that the breach occurs before the announcement.

Interestingly enough "low risk" warrants are more dangerous than "high risk" ones in that more people on both sides of the equation get hurt. It largely has to do with the overwhelming force and the element of surprise which comes along with the no-knock package.

Erik
January 6, 2008, 04:34 PM
Wrong addresses are statistically very rare occurances. You hear about every one of the no-knock ones, and occassionally the knock ones. There really isn't any excuse for it, but it unfortunately happens.

Poser entry teams are all but unheard of.

vox rationis
January 6, 2008, 04:36 PM
Quote:
perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house, unless you see five proper squad cars outside, lights flashing, and with uniformed police outside announcing whom they are on the PA system. Quote

At which time your door would be knocked down and you would be tackled and cuffed, or if you're holding a weapon, maybe even shot. As stated earlier, the police will think you're stalling because you have something to hide, and will waste little time gaining entry to your residence.

I would hope that the police would use more judicious judgment and restraint if they heard that type of response from inside a home than to just decide to kick the door in anyway and potentially get into a terrible fire fight with a scared homeowner fearing home invasion. So perhaps that is something to add in one's response: "You must have the wrong house and I am in fear for my life that you are home invaders, and I will require a call from your supervisor/proper squad cars outside/etc before opening the door". Unfortunately the home owner in this situation, is like you guys have already said, pretty much screwed. I'm hoping that announcing your doubts regarding their identity and that you are afraid for your life and fearing a home invasion, and that you are armed and will resist will make crooks go away and choose an easier target, and make real cops approach the problem more judiciously in such a case and use a little restraint to make sure they do have the right house, assuage the home owner's fears, and de-escalate the situation.

Now if you live next to a crackhouse, well then I could see both the police and would be crack-house invaders wanting to strike hard and fast, and in that case you are pretty much screwed.... Having extremely sturdy doors and a secure safe room would seem to be a very good idea :o.

JohnMcD348
January 6, 2008, 04:42 PM
A comment was made in an earlier post about the 8-5 work time frame. I saw personally(neighbor next door) get a warrant served at 3am in search of child "****". Apparently, he was very heavy into it. And a Youth pastor.... I personally know many people in the Law Enforcement community from State Troopers to local Town/Community Law Enforcement. If you're being pulled over in a vehicle and do not feel safe in THAT particular area, as long as you continue to travel in a reasonable manner and make no attempts to evade, no harm would come to you. The officer is made very aware of situations like this by the news media and training. If you Choose not to stop immediatley and continue to drive to a well lighted and populated area, the LEO should have no problem with that measure.

In the home, keep yourself protected but visible to the persons at teh door(within reason) and let them know you are calling for verification if you do not believe them. I have been told that they have had dispatch contact the person in the phone to tell them the persons at teh door were LEO's. If they are not serving a no knock warrant, chances are, what they are looking for is not important enough to kill you for or risk loosing their life over. If it was then a tactical team will let you know they are there by placing their foot on your throat and let you know what they are there for. In which case the point is mute.

I am not a trained LEO, I have trained with them in the past and while I was in Emergency services and in the Military. I have many friends who wear the shield and gun and patrol the streets and feel very confident that if doubt is to be had, and you have no reason to fear any wrong doing on your part, hesitation would be granted.


That is not to say that if mistakes are made and addresses are mixed up, that things can not go very bad, very fast. I situation happend like that no too long ago to a non-English speaking family in another part of the country and fortunately, after many rounds were fired by the family member protecting his home and the Tactical team serving the warrant, there were no fatalities.

Perldog007
January 6, 2008, 04:52 PM
Halloween night 2006. My friend and Neighbor Jay was killed by home invaders that yelled ".... State Police" as they broke the front door.

Until one of them pistol whipped him everyone in the house thought they were genuine plain clothes cops. Four people were playing cards at the kitchen table and they all put their hands on the table and sat still.

Very tough call. Whether they are cops or not, they are probably coming in. If they are cops and you resist you are toast. If they are not cops and you comply like Jay did you are toast.

I will say that when I was doing security work I personally witnessed one B.S. raid that looked like some dumb@$$ had priapism. Forty people to jack up one apartment full of potheads, and they came away empty handed. I think they found a dirty bong.

They also jacked up everyone near the building (the warrant was for an apartment).

Flash bangs ruined the apartment.

A guy coming home from working at a gun store, legally carrying his revolver openly was almost gunned down by a hand full of idiots brandishing MP5s'. He was outside the building and did not match any descriptions (wrong race) and lived two floors below the target location.

All this for less than a gram of marijuana residue.

All the officers were dressed like tacticool ninjas, most in jeans/sweaters/ski masks. Would not have been too much of a leap for somebody to think they were other than LEO.

I had spoken to the same residents about noise complaints, they always opened their door. It could have been handled much differently. Seems the Tactical folks just had to have a raid.

Now bear in mind that the department under discussion normally displayed the highest levels of professionalism and devotion to duty. Even good cops can have a brain fart or a bad day.

The very next time they were on the complex they were back to being the best of the best. If I had to be a security guard again I would hope to be in their backyard again.

Bottom line, I hope I guess right and I will do whatever I can to keep the real cops from being interested in me. If I thought it was real cops I would ask them what they wanted me to do with my weapon for their safety and mine. The answer might tip me off if they were bogus.

But like I said, hope it never happens and hope I guess right if it does.

Spade Cooley
January 7, 2008, 11:36 AM
This is an easy one, obey the law and they will not be coming to your house.

If they should come, look out and see if they are in uniform. Not too many crooks go to the trouble of going to Hollyood and renting cop suits. If you refuse to open up when they have a warrant, expect to have the door coming down. Its that simple.

I can remember a call we got many years ago. A black Man was beating up his old lady and the police were called. We arrived and heard the sounds of screams and breaking furniture. We did the required knock and notice, then it got real quiet. Then a man answered, "Just slip the search warrant under the door". When we quit laughing the door was knocked off the hinges and landed on top of the man. It could have been done much easier.

ZeSpectre
January 7, 2008, 11:53 AM
This is an easy one, obey the law and they will not be coming to your house.

Wow, to be that innocent again. I've worked LE and I don't believe that one.
Who was it here that had a false spouse-abuse charge laid by an ex and got seriously jacked up for doing nothing at all?

Not too many crooks go to the trouble of going to Hollyood and renting cop suits.
and some do
http://www.wtop.com/?sid=1317473&nid=25

Fake Cops Stop Woman in Silver Spring
December 28, 2007 - 8:31am
Darci Marchese, WTOP Radio

WASHINGTON - Police in Montgomery County are warning residents about two fake cops.

A 39-year-old woman reported to police that just before 1 a.m. on Dec. 21 she was pulled over by what looked like a police car with red and blue lights flashing. At the same time, another a white car that looked like a police car was coming down the road in the opposite direction. It made a U-turn and stopped behind her.

Police say a man wearing what appeared to be a police uniform approached the driver's side window, told the woman had been speeding and asked for her driver's license. As she talked to the officer, another man dressed in similar clothing, motioned for her to roll down her passenger side window. She did and her purse was stolen.

The two men drove off in their respective cars.

Police say the suspects are both white men between 20 and 25. One was 6-feet tall and about 170 pounds. He was wearing a blue uniform and driving a white police-style vehicle with a light-bar attached to the top. The second man was about 5-foot-8 and 200 pounds, wearing a blue uniform. He also was driving a white police-style vehicle with a light bar attached to the top.

If you know anything about this crime, call the police at 301-565-5835.

In light of this incident, police are offering the following tips so you don't become a victim:

* If an officer initiates a traffic stop, particularly one in street clothes or a questionable-looking vehicle, continue to drive to a well-lighted, open area before stopping. Police say you should turn on your flashers and drive slowly.
* All officers carry photo identification with their badges. They are required to display them if asked. You can ask for ID and should since anyone can purchase a new or used badge off the Internet, police say.
* Do not be afraid to have the officer hold up the ID card. Officers can't let you hold their cards, but you can take the time to read the ID and look for the agency name, picture of the officer, and rank.
* Police say you shouldn't be afraid to tell the officer you plan to dispatch and verify the officer's identity.

Chui
January 7, 2008, 06:34 PM
... Few home invaders will go through the rigamorale of getting LE uniforms, faking IDs and warrants, etc. so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Unless of course he has something they want which would be worth the rigmarole of dressing up... either way, expect little/no patience.
LOL!!!

I think that is a situation in which most people will "fumble". Who doesn't respect the law? I certainly do. I don't trust those given the responsibility to enforce it. I trust home invaders even less.

I really don't have an informative, unique answer for that one. For once you acknowledge your presence either party may be prone to resort to high-handed tactics.

Maybe you could make a run for it and be a "star" on COPS. :D Who knows?

This is the problem with gov't kicking down doors; you don't know WHO represents LAW & ORDER and who represents naked aggression.

nate45
January 7, 2008, 07:38 PM
Police Kill Wrong Man
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/gkhan/2004/07/police-kill-wrong-man.html

Man killed in police raid on wrong house
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/10/06/tennessee.shooting.02.ap/index.html

Deputies Raid Wrong Address, Kill Couple's Dog

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1107/474003.html

Drug War Victims-lists multiple victims
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html

Police Raid Wrong House,Gunfire Breaks Out.-video
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e4_1197976331&c=1

Police burst into wrong apartment
www.charleston.net/news/2008/ jan/03/police_burst_into_wrong_apartment26530/

Police raid targets wrong address
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/articles/2007/05/04/news/news01.txt

kgpcr
January 7, 2008, 11:08 PM
Yes it does happen but your chances are not enough for me to worry about that happening. Yes be prepared but for reality not what if long shots

Wildalaska
January 7, 2008, 11:31 PM
Lightning strikes

WildequaloddsAlaska TM

Perldog007
January 8, 2008, 06:05 AM
There is something to be gained here. The need to make sure of what you are dealing with.

If you are awakened by masked folks breaking down the door there is no room for error either way. The advice to obey the law is good, but most of us that have or do ccw fall into that category.

I don't have the answer

Derius_T
January 8, 2008, 09:02 AM
Vlad Son of Tepes Wrote:

Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house,

That is an option I wouldn't suggest. That would most likely get you dead quickly.

There is no sure fire way to guarantee validity in most cases, but to look out and see official cars, and uniforms, the only thing that might work is to be on line with 911 asking questions as you open the door. Quickly announcing you are on with 911 as they enter. JMHO. Each situation is obviously going to be deifferent, requiring changes in responses and tactics.

Bond007
January 8, 2008, 11:32 AM
In a previous post I explained how I had the police twice in one week respond to a 911 call which had the lines crossed to my apartment in the early morning.

They knocked, I (once I woke up) communicated to them I was calling the local police to verify, they waited and once confirmed I opened the door.

For a warrant authorizing entry, they don't have to wait forever, but hopefully they don't suspect you of destroying evidence and will wait a moment while you're on the line with local police to confirm.

Worked well for me, I keep local PD's number on my cell phone.

Good luck.
M

markj
January 8, 2008, 03:20 PM
Sure glad I live outside the big city.... or maybe I am too busy to imagine threats and dream up what ifs?

Take a few classes on self defense first off s oyou have a little confidence, then take some body guard stuff and learn how to hit a target in all lite situations. If a cop knocks, better let him in.

Perldog007
January 8, 2008, 06:05 PM
If a cop knocks, better let him in.

No Doubt, and cheerfully too. But as has been stated, just because somebody says they are a cop does not make it so.

I used to know a man who got fooled on that one......

HankB
January 8, 2008, 06:39 PM
Read the news reports carefully...your chances, if you are a legitimate person, of getting hit by folks pretending to be cops is statistically nill.The reality is that neither I nor anyone else in my household is a fugitive from justice, involved in illegal drugs, kiddie ****, shady tax dodges, jihadi activity, failure to report for jury duty, downloading pirate MP3s, or even has unpaid parking tickets.

Hence, there is NO reason to believe that REAL police would have ANY reason to have a warrant for my residence. So unless there are 5 marked squad cars out front and a dozen uniformed cops standing around, the odds are that the "cops" demanding entry ARE, in fact, fakes.

Chui
January 8, 2008, 08:08 PM
Many of U guys wholly miss the point. Gov't should not be in the practice of kicking down doors.

The founders of this nation would be appalled at the current state of affairs. Name one thing gov't cannot do... things have surely changed since those who "had it all" risked it all for folks who, by and large don't seem to regard their philosophy very highly...

:barf:

vox rationis
January 8, 2008, 10:55 PM
Vlad Son of Tepes Wrote:

:
Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house

That is an option I wouldn't suggest. That would most likely get you dead quickly.

We are dealing with LEO's not Delta Force hunting murderous terrorists here. I should hope that police would show slightly more restraint, if not only for the fear that they would be severely maimed or wounded themselves, by our theoretical, heavily armed, homeowner, fearing a home invasion. Now granted IF there are cop cars outside lights flashing, and LOTS of genuine looking LEO's out there then it is very unlikely these are crooks. But if its like 4 Bozos out there wearing "FBI" wind breakers, saying "Open the door, its the Police" then I think that not opening the door and asking for proof (a few squad cars with lights flashing, uniformed officers, telephone legitimation, etc) first is not only a good idea, but probably recommended these days. If they are true cops they will be more persistent and engage in some sort of persuasive verbal exchange with you, and some attempt, I would think, at legitimizing themselves, whereas I'm hoping that the crooks, upon hearing that you are armed and planning on resisting, would just go and find an easier target. I think just rolling over and exposing loved ones and oneself to any low-life yelling "open up its the police" is foolish. And the suggestion that any hint of a verbal challenge from a worried and concerned home owner will result in nothing less then the police throwing all caution to the wind and violently assaulting your property without any regard to their own safety is probably not giving enough credit to the professionalism and capacity of restraint that Police organizations in the US have.

BreacherUp!
January 8, 2008, 10:58 PM
perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house
In many places, this would classify you as a barricaded suspect.
Not entirely a good start.
You'll definitely see the SWAT team now

vox rationis
January 8, 2008, 11:13 PM
Vlad Son of Tepes Wrote:

Quote:
Well if they announce they are cops, and you don't trust that they are, perhaps you can announce that you do not trust their declaration as genuine, that you are very well armed and will resist an intrusion into your property/house,
That is an option I wouldn't suggest. That would most likely get you dead quickly.

Perfect actually. This way one would know that they are true LEO's. The next correct course of action, is then to loudly announce that "I now understand that you are official LEO's and I am unloading all of my guns and locking them up, after which I will follow absolutely all of your instructions". But before rolling out the SWAT, don't you think that they really ought to just have had their supervisor take my call via 911 ;)

IdahoG36
January 8, 2008, 11:18 PM
You'll definitely see the SWAT team now

Just imagine what your neighbors would think if SWAT showed up!:D

"I really thought John was a good guy. I've been his neighbor for years."

Haha. The next day you go over to your neighbor's house to explain that it was all a huge misunderstanding. They'd probably be afraid to answer the door.

vox rationis
January 8, 2008, 11:27 PM
Many of U guys wholly miss the point. Gov't should not be in the practice of kicking down doors.

Sentiment very well received here. I would hope that Govt ought to really approach a decision to violently assault someone's property with great deliberation of thought and restraint and only after having excellent intelligence that it is a correct target. I also realize that there have been cases of egregious suspension of judgment, and outright mistakes, by various LE Agencies in the past. Anyway, I'm optimistic that most LEO's in this country aren't gung ho meat-heads and are highly intelligent, professional and well measured individuals .

vox rationis
January 8, 2008, 11:29 PM
Haha. The next day you go over to your neighbor's house to explain that it was all a huge misunderstanding. They'd probably be afraid to answer the door.

just say: "OPEN UP ITS THE POLICE" :D

mountainclmbr
January 8, 2008, 11:53 PM
How hard would it be to file a false report that gets a no-knock raid on an ex that you truly hate?

David Armstrong
January 9, 2008, 05:32 PM
I didn't search long enough to find home invasions, but "playing dress up" is a very common theme.
Let's see now, unless I missed something in reading al lthis stuff we still do not have an example of BGs dressing up in LE uniforms, geting fake IDs, and faking a copy of a warrant to conduct a home invasion. Thanks for playing, folks, but I think you all have proven my point.

Derius_T
January 10, 2008, 10:22 AM
Son of Vlad,

The point I was trying to make is that openly announcing that you are heavily armed and will resist any attempt to enter, is perhaps not the best thing to yell through your door at the police.

Its about the same thing as having a concealed carry weapon, being pulled over in a traffic stop, and the first thing you say as the officer comes to your window is "I have a gun". Don't expect to get handled with kid gloves after such a declaration.

I think that announcing that you are "on the phone now with 911", and that you will open the door as soon as their validity is verified, might be a better option than yelling "I'm armed and will open fire if you try to come in."

If you decide to take that course of action, let me know and I will watch for it on the news.....:confused:

vox rationis
January 10, 2008, 08:03 PM
Derius,

Ok, point taken but I wasn't suggesting that the first thing one should say is "I'm armed!"

from a later post of mine: "You must have the wrong house and I am in fear for my life that you are home invaders, and I will require a call from your supervisor/proper squad cars outside/etc before opening the door"

I suppose that instead of "I will require a call from your supervisor.." one could say "...and I have 911 on the line" or "...I am calling the police" or some variation on that theme.

I agree that announcing simply "I am armed and you better not come in" is a really really really bad idea :)

BreacherUp!
January 10, 2008, 09:00 PM
You're doing wayyy to much talking. Consequently, that door is getting 25# of rubber put into it.

Perldog007
January 10, 2008, 09:36 PM
You're doing wayyy to much talking. Consequently, that door is getting 25# of rubber put into it.

+1 This middle aged citizen has worked around enough LEO to believe that if they want you to open the door, it's gonna open. I don't believe that officers who think they are in the right are going to be too concerned that you are concerned that they may be someone else.

Plus, everybody lies to cops. MHO is that trying to stall them won't work if they are concerned about preserving evidence.

vox rationis
January 11, 2008, 12:08 AM
You think? I'd think they would rather take a small spell to think about this unforeseen wrinkle. Use their noggin a tad here instead of letting loose with the gung ho. Because after all, after that door comes flying open, our theoretical home owner afraid of a violent intrusion by criminals onto his property might not be holding a "commemorative Glock" in his hands like one poster so condescendingly wrote a few posts ago, but instead, perhaps our poor homeowner will be holding a Black Rifle, or a Kalashnikov variant, of one type or another. Funneling in through a door in the face of that type of resistance isn't exactly an enviable proposition for the assault element, and I wouldn't think that a suicide mission was something that they'd be particularly interested in. So unless "securing that evidence" is worth dying for, I would hope that real Police in that situation would think a bit more with their brains and less with their tactical gear.

Perldog007
January 11, 2008, 11:53 AM
I would hope that real Police in that situation would think a bit more with their brains and less with their tactical gear.

Me too, but still must insist that I have personally witnessed a warrant execution go the other way. Not that it should, or always would. But it can and it has. You won't convince me it can't happen again.

Also knew a man who complied to statement of police presence by four men in civillian clothes. The men turned out to be armed home invaders. Yelling "Police" and brandishing weapons fooled the occupants long enough to gain entry and control. I say knew because he died during that event.

EDIT - SonofVladTepes - check this link out http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59616 . Believe it or not, Some folks will do boneheaded things whether or not we swear them in and pay them and give them cars, radios, and guns.

Thank G-d that none of the children in that house were holding anything that those boneheads may have thought was a weapon!

buzz_knox
January 11, 2008, 12:40 PM
I am not sure about everywhere but when I was in the LE line of work search warrants required uniformed officers be present.

The two times cops came to serve warrants at my place, they were in plainclothes. They had the wrong address both times.

kgpcr
January 11, 2008, 07:53 PM
I know LEO's that have done search warrants for years and never gotten a wrong house. Warrants they did not find anything yes but not the wrong house. If they want in they be comin in!

vox rationis
January 11, 2008, 08:12 PM
check this link out http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=59616 .

Absolutely stunning story! I am a very proud naturalized American Citizen from an ex Communist Eastern European country. I find this type of thing very worrying indeed. My tolerance for government goons abusing their power and brutalizing innocent people is nil. I guess that the only thing I could say on a practical note is that it might be a good time to invest in breech proof doors, perimeter lighting, dogs, and a very secure safe room to guard against an intrusion from any party, criminals or mis-guided law enforcement agencies :(

BreacherUp!
January 11, 2008, 08:18 PM
Because after all, after that door comes flying open, our theoretical home owner afraid of a violent intrusion by criminals onto his property might not be holding a "commemorative Glock" in his hands like one poster so condescendingly wrote a few posts ago, but instead, perhaps our poor homeowner will be holding a Black Rifle, or a Kalashnikov variant, of one type or another.
Vlad, I'm confused. You just stated that after your long discussion through the door with the police, whom you've already observed (per your earlier post), that you would still brandish a weapon when the police enter. Which they will, after a "reasonable time". That reasonable time standard would be met in a court of law through your tiring discussion through the door. So, YOU would be escalating the situation, and most likely, forcing the officers to use deadly force.
Again, your call, but IMO, not a wise one.

JollyRoger
January 11, 2008, 08:24 PM
Not to be a wet blanket, but I think this "thugs dressed up as cops" thing is getting overplayed. I actually do remember one such robbery, but as with most "home invasion" robberies, it was a a case of robbers hitting drug dealers. Before I get flamed, I know there are home invasions where the victims are upstanding citizens. I investigated one where the robbers took a bank manager hostage, held her all night and went with her to rob the bank in the morning. The point is, however, even garden variety home invasion robberies do not involve random strikes. Any thug dressing up like a cop is going to a lot of trouble to hit a specific target.

That being said, if you say anything that sounds like a threat to a police officer executing a warrant, the best thing you can hope for is an overnight in jail. Most of the ballistic entry type warrants are for drug dealers to preserve evidence. Robbers, murderers, etc. can expect heavy tactics, but usually involve a slower, less risky clearing technique. For a low-threat warrant you might get a chance to do some talking, but the site of a warrant is still NOT the place to assert your rights. A whole system is designed for that, including internal affairs departments, suppression of evidence in criminal cases, a civil Bivens suit for damages, etc. I am constantly amazed that people think they can best the authorities on the street if they cop enough attitude. You have to use the proper venue: once you go playing cowboy, you're going to lose. Every time.

SteelCore
January 11, 2008, 08:34 PM
Many of U guys wholly miss the point. Gov't should not be in the practice of kicking down doors.

The founders of this nation would be appalled at the current state of affairs. Name one thing gov't cannot do... things have surely changed since those who "had it all" risked it all for folks who, by and large don't seem to regard their philosophy very highly...
Absolutely correct. There is no doubt that Jefferson, Madison, et al., would be thoroughly disgusted with what Americans put up with. This has become a nation of obedient, docile, cowardly sheep who never fail to line up at the shearing-shed.

Among other things, people have gotten far too accustomed to militarized/tacticool police having their way with the American people. Some even think of these guys as heroes. I think a lot of that has to the tendency of weak people to worship what they perceive as strength (though the only real "strength" here is that of superior numbers, body armor, surprise, and in many cases, weaponry). Most people like to cheer on the "winning team," regardless of principle. Most people have also been conditioned and brainwashed into thinking that "the law" is infallible, rather than just demands made upon some men by others.

Many of these raids are just absurd, with lives being put in danger and a level of force being used that would be unnecessary when dealing even with a known serial killer, let alone some two-bit pot dealer. But there's no shortage of people who'll do it because it makes them feel like macho bad-asses. Who cares about the Constitution when you're getting paid to play ninja with cool weapons?

If the police knock on my door, I'm looking out the window to see if marked cars are there before opening up. Then I'll talk to them civilly, like one human being to others.

If anyone kicks in my door -- especially if they're wearing masks -- then a great deal of armor-piercing rifle bullets are going to be headed in their direction. If I get shot then that's fine, but I won't be the only one going down. I'm only going to live once. Whether it's for a long time or a short time, it won't be as a slave whose life and property are subject to the whims of either criminals or the Almighty Law that most Americans consider to be an infallible God.

BreacherUp!
January 11, 2008, 08:44 PM
Many of these raids are just absurd, with lives being put in danger and a level of force being used that would be unnecessary when dealing even with a known serial killer, let alone some two-bit pot dealer.
Seriously? Unnecessary for a serial killer. Good Grief
Whether it's for a long time or a short time, it won't be as a slave whose life and property are subject to the whims of either criminals or the Almighty Law that most Americans consider to be an infallible God.
You're not. You're person and/or premises is subject to a WARRANT signed by a judge. The very basis of Constitutional law. As stated earler, there is a judicial system in place for use-of-force after the fact. A premeditated shoot out with the law is a grand idea!

vox rationis
January 11, 2008, 08:51 PM
Vlad, I'm confused. You just stated that after your long discussion through the door with the police, whom you've already observed (per your earlier post), that you would still brandish a weapon when the police enter. Which they will, after a "reasonable time". That reasonable time standard would be met in a court of law through your tiring discussion through the door. So, YOU would be escalating the situation, and most likely, forcing the officers to use deadly force.
Again, your call, but IMO, not a wise one.

Well the scenario I was working with is this: a theoretical homeowner hears a knock and a voice that says: "OPEN UP ITS THE POLICE". The homeowner looks out the window/peephole/etc and sees a half dozen strong collection of men either wearing windbreakers with "Police" written on them, or men wearing tactical looking gear and masks (and probably openly armed). What the homeowner DOES NOT see however is any more objective indication of these people being real Police. No squad cars with lights flashing, no SWAT van, no uniformed police. So the issue then becomes, how does the homeowner respond? As seen in past such scenarios, although I suppose somewhat rare, but I'd argue, not rare enough, these could be home invaders, or real cops getting the wrong house. This is why I proposed that an idea would be to say something akin to: "I think you've got the wrong house, I am afraid that you are home invaders, I am armed and will resist unless I speak to your supervisor, I'm calling 911". By the way this would take a whole 5 seconds to say, not a prolonged conversation. Now as this is happening our theoretical homeowner could have gotten his own favorite self defense weapon, a tacticool Noveske N4 Light Carabine with EOtech. So to be clear, at this point, the homeowner STILL DOES NOT know if these people are cops or not, and is deeply concerned that he's being faced with a home invasion; if the next event is aggressive armed people breaking his door down, well then I could see how the homeowner, fearing for his and his family's life, opens fire in self defense.

SteelCore
January 11, 2008, 08:53 PM
Seriously? Unnecessary for a serial killer. Good GriefI'd hate to see the serial killer who requires 200 cops, armored personnel carriers, and helicopters to arrest him.

Did you see the law enforcement response to those two elderly tax evaders in New Hampshire? "Good grief" is right.

You're not. You're person and/or premises is subject to a WARRANT signed by a judge. The very basis of Constitutional law. As stated earler, there is a judicial system in place for use-of-force after the fact. A premeditated shoot out with the law is a grand idea!If my door is kicked in in the middle of the night by armed, masked men, I am not going to take the chance of being victimized with impunity. "Citizen safety" is every bit as important as "officer safety" -- if not more so, since I don't get paid to take risks. (Not that police work is even that dangerous. IIRC, roofing is about twice as dangerous a profession.) But even so, safety isn't my main reason for being armed. It's more about self-respect and a refusal to be tread upon.

vox rationis
January 11, 2008, 08:53 PM
Not to be a wet blanket, but I think this "thugs dressed up as cops" thing is getting overplayed.

you are probably right, but this is a discussion forum and we's discussin' :D

SteelCore
January 11, 2008, 09:00 PM
They wouldn't even need to necessarily dress up if it's dark enough in the house at night when they break in. All they'd have to do is yell, "Police! Search Warrant!" That might be enough for many to give in and cower.

BreacherUp!
January 11, 2008, 09:05 PM
Appologies, Vlad. My quoted comments were from SteelCore.
Steel, you're back peddling already.
Frankly, doesn't the public at large expect the full resources of the law to be utilized to capture a known serial killer, whether you'd "hate" to see it or not?

(Not that police work is even that dangerous. IIRC, roofing is about twice as dangerous a profession.)
Wow, spoken by someone with obvious experience.
But even so, safety isn't my main reason for being armed. It's more about self-respect and a refusal to be tread upon.
Cowboy Up! You sound just like every gang member I come across

SteelCore
January 11, 2008, 09:22 PM
Steel, you're back peddling already.How? I'm simply making the point that I'm not going to take a chance at being victimized just because The Law allows its enforcers to kick in doors, even if it's by virtue of a rubber-stamped warrant. I can't take a chance that the invaders aren't really cops. And if they're kicking in my door as part of a post-Katrina-style gun confiscation, then they're getting shot whether they're cops or not.

Frankly, doesn't the public at large expect the full resources of the law to be utilized to capture a known serial killer, whether you'd "hate" to see it or not?Obviously I'd want to see a serial killer get busted quickly. But when does the response become unnecessarily disproportionate? When a nuke is dropped on the house where he's known to be hiding? When the army is called out?

From the Butchers of Waco to the daily raids on stupid but harmless hippies who sell pot or coke to each other (because drug laws make it very profitable), law enforcement in America has become far too militarized and often tends to escalate conflicts rather than make arrests using the minimum force possible, as is required in a system where people are supposed to be judged by a court rather than cops.

Wow, spoken by someone with obvious experience.I have experience in neither roofing nor law enforcement, but that has little to do with the simple fact that a roofer is about twice as likely to get killed on the job as a cop. Feel free to research this; you don't have to take my word for it.

Cowboy Up! You sound just like every gang member I come acrossIt sure would be nice if more Americans valued their freedom as much as gang members valued their turf or their drug profits.

Perldog007
January 11, 2008, 09:31 PM
Frankly, doesn't the public at large expect the full resources of the law to be utilized to capture a known serial killer, whether you'd "hate" to see it or not?

Yup, but as posted I have personally witnessed an off the hook raid for an apartment with some potheads in it. Everybody near the whole building got messed with. I never realized a warrant for an apartment occupied by four young black males applied to elderly black people and white people who happened to be within 30 yards of the same building....

Also heard two cops at the gun store discussing a "raid" on a trailer where the startled p*** ant heard his door break on a no knock and picked up a pellet pistol (dumb p*** ant at that).

Luckily for said p*** ant said officers marksmanship was on par with their street smarts, he was hit in the femur and shoulder at range of less than 10'. He will survive, less than a quarter ounce of coke and a weapon (the pellet pistol) from this daring raid.

Their discussion matched the write up in the local paper.

And check out this story of bravery and courage .....
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=59616

And yes, I have kicked in a door or two. Once to recover a skip in West Philly at OdarkThirty on 7OCT87. Once working in public housing in D.C. two pre teen girls were in a vacant apartment used by the local crew as a gang clubhouse. Both times I was solo.

The skip was previously given the chance to do it the easy way. The kids parents were very pleased that their daughters were removed from that apartment before the gang members found them there.

I can be proud of my actions on the occasions when I came through the door by taking it off the hinges suddenly. Would not be able to say the same if involved in any of the other incidents mentioned above, or what happened to Spookboy.

Nobody is faulting officials for exercising good care and using appropriate force. By your screen name you seem to be in the trade. You have to know that not every raid by every organization is warranted. If you are in the trade and do not believe that exuberance occurs we can't help you.

vox rationis
January 11, 2008, 09:44 PM
Steel Core I totally sympathize with your sentiments about not wanting to be victimized by heavy handed government police tactics.

All I'll say is that I think we'd all agree that there is an obvious role for SWAT type police squads, but also that LE agencies ought to really take such SWAT actions, and the planning associated therewith extremely seriously, and be religious about rock solid intelligence, and be extremely judicious when they unleash such paramilitary units upon the public.

JollyRoger
January 12, 2008, 12:03 AM
From the Butchers of Waco to the daily raids on stupid but harmless hippies who sell pot or coke to each other

Dude, come on. The Butchers of Waco were the nutballs who opened up on the ATF when they were serving a federal search warrant reviewed and approved by a Federal District Judge. Having obtained a number of those warrants, I can attest to the fact that there is no rubber-stamp process here. If said nutballs wanted to contest the probable cause, they could have hired a good lawyer and had their day in court rather than murdering dedicated federal agents. 'nuff said.

If you don't like the drug laws, write your Congressman. LEO's enforce the laws on the books, they don't make them.

I can be proud of my actions on the occasions when I came through the door by taking it off the hinges suddenly.

Perldog007, you can be proud of doing something stupid if you want to. I made a couple solo arrests of genuine bad guys when circumstances required it and got away with it, but I also made couple 2-on-1 arrests where we almost didn't get away with it. Most LEO's get the toughguy stuff out of their systems after they wind up in a bad situation and realize how easy it would be to lose and get hurt or killed. After that, we just want to get the job done and go home with no new holes. The best way to do that is to go in with superiority of manpower and superiority of force: lots of LEO's, lots of firepower. While these much-maligned "paramilitary" techniques may offend some posters here, they usually impress upon the bad guys that any resistance is futile. That way the bad guy gets to jail alive, and LEO's don't have to go through the nightmare that comes with a shooting incident. Better for everybody.

SteelCore
January 12, 2008, 12:36 AM
Dude, come on. The Butchers of Waco were the nutballs who opened up on the ATF when they were serving a federal search warrant reviewed and approved by a Federal District Judge. Having obtained a number of those warrants, I can attest to the fact that there is no rubber-stamp process here. If said nutballs wanted to contest the probable cause, they could have hired a good lawyer and had their day in court rather than murdering dedicated federal agents. 'nuff said.The ATF has no right to exist, and every single one of those "dedicated federal agents" is/was an armed enemy of the US Constitution and freedom itself. Thus, they were in the wrong no matter what happened. And I believe the ATF fired first.

As to the need for the raid and the obvious misconduct and lies during and after it (including blatant perjury by ATF officials), you might want to watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement. It contains plenty of real-time footage that makes it quite unambiguous who the real sickos were in that incident.

If you don't like the drug laws, write your Congressman.The average citizen has absolutely no power to change the laws on the books, and my Congressman (along with most others) doesn't give a crap about the Constitution or anything the average citizen has to say.

Besides, why should anyone have to beg another man (or woman) for the natural right to do as he pleases with his own body and health? Drug laws wrongly deny that right. By the logic on which they're based, people could be thrown in prison for drinking too much, eating too much, or not exercising. (I do believe it should remain illegal to provide drugs to minors, though, or to operate a car while under the influence and so forth.)

I don't use or sell drugs, but there are other unconstitutional and tyrannical laws on the books that I reserve the right to break as I see fit. Since I have no desire to harm innocent people or their property, my conscience is clear.

LEO's enforce the laws on the books, they don't make them."Just following orders" is no more an excuse in the US than it was at Nuremberg. For the most part, I don't begrudge cops enforcing the laws as long as they never violate citizens' rights themselves. But some laws are so obviously unconstitutional, and are so obviously there JUST to protect political power, that their enforcement is a crime against everything this nation stands for.

kgpcr
January 12, 2008, 12:39 AM
some pretty wacked out people here!! As for David Koresh when you are getting hand grenades via UPS there is a problem. I am glad they raided his compound. Who needs hand grenades. but oh yes they were planted i forgot. there is a conspiracy behind every tree no wait thats paranoia

SteelCore
January 12, 2008, 12:50 AM
Never mind...

ghalleen
January 12, 2008, 03:52 AM
I would think it would be obvious by looking at vehicles. In my city, the police cars stand out. If I looked out the door or window and saw several police officers, as well as a couple of police cars, I think it would be safe to assume that they are the police.

If I don't see police cars, then I'll get suspicious.

Creature
January 12, 2008, 09:02 AM
Who needs hand grenades.


I wouldnt mind having a few...I guess that makes me whack?

Capt Charlie
January 12, 2008, 01:05 PM
Well, it took longer for this to go south than I thought it would, but go south it did.

This is tactics and training, not legal & political. We went from discerning real cops serving a search warrant to debating the merits of same, as usually happens when the subject of search warrants comes up. And of course, the inevitable Waco had to come up.

So much for staying on topic.

Closed.