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che_70b
December 30, 2007, 02:40 AM
I have a couple questions about things I don't get.

1. What is with the big sights on some shotguns now. This refers to both the military type iron sights and optical sights like aim points and eotechs. I guess I can see their value with slugs but the shotguns I have handled with such devices loose so much of their instinctive feel that I cannot see it being worth the trade off. It seems to me to be one those “mall ninja” type things with tacking extra stuff on your guns.

2. While these do seem to be largely picked on I feel the need to ask about Extreme Shock ammo. Aside from its silly packaging and advertizing and ridiculous price does it actually function. I have only ever seen it in mail order catalogs and at gun shows.
There may be more as I think of them.

3. Is there a difference between tactical vest and photographers vests. I wear a photog vest beacouse I am fat and it has many pockets that I can easily reach, is this really that obvious of a way to conceal?

The Tourist
December 30, 2007, 03:11 AM
tactical vest...I am fat

To be honest, the word 'tactical' has become so convoluted and silly that it has lost all meaning.

Personally, I like to wear merino wool WigWam socks. I also wear them when I'm reloading, shooting, sharpening and riding.

Since many of these hobbies involve firearms or survival gear, then would you say (with a straight face) that I own "tactical socks"?

And if I got a blister in my boot, would I then require "tactical Dr. Sholes Zino Pads"?

And if I posted this information on a bulletin board at work, would I need "tactical tacks"?

If the tacks had the Gander Mountain logo on them, would they be "tactical quack tacks..."

T. O'Heir
December 30, 2007, 03:58 AM
The word 'tactical' is a marketing term only. There's no such thing as a 'tactical' anything.

che_70b
December 30, 2007, 04:03 AM
The continual use of the word tactical could easily be a question on the list well. :) But that is part of the point.

OldShooter
December 30, 2007, 08:04 AM
Remember when everything was "Turbo"?
The term "Tactical" sucks in a lot of wannabees.

JollyRoger
December 30, 2007, 08:54 AM
Black nylon + velcro = tactical. Increase sales price by 150%. Repeat.

Double Naught Spy
December 30, 2007, 09:23 AM
1. What is with the big sights on some shotguns now. This refers to both the military type iron sights and optical sights like aim points and eotechs. I guess I can see their value with slugs but the shotguns I have handled with such devices loose so much of their instinctive feel that I cannot see it being worth the trade off.

If the military-type iron sights and optics don't work for you on a shotgun, then don't use them. I find some are crappy as well, but others are very good, "instinctive" as you called them. Similarly, not all guns work for me either and some are more "instinctive." On short, it is a personal preference thing. Just because such sights don't work for you does not mean they are without value to others.

2. While these do seem to be largely picked on I feel the need to ask about Extreme Shock ammo. Aside from its silly packaging and advertizing and ridiculous price does it actually function. I have only ever seen it in mail order catalogs and at gun shows.
There may be more as I think of them.

I feel the need to tell you about the SEARCH button located at the top center right of the page. You can use it to learn what folks have already said many times about Extreme Shock.

3. Is there a difference between tactical vest and photographers vests.

Yes and no. Photographer's vests are simply cargo vests. It is just that photographers often use them to carry their gear on their person instead of in a bag. They are also called cargo, adventure, explorer, wilderness, etc. vests. Some cargo vests are marketed as being tactical, and the are tactical if use in a tactical manner. The main thing about them is that they do the job of carrying gear without looking like SWAT-type tactical equipment.

Actual "tactical" vests are really just various incarnations of military load-bearing vests actually designed for, or with the idea of, use in battle for carrying gear in a manner that makes the gear more readily accessible than gear carrying in packs.

I wear a photog vest beacouse I am fat and it has many pockets that I can easily reach, is this really that obvious of a way to conceal?

The only folks who associate cargo vests with carrying guns are gun people. The general population, most cops, etc., are clueless to the possible association. Where most vest-wearing gun folks screw up in wearing vests is that they fail to make use of the vest as a cargo vest. They have all the pockets, but have their phone and knife on their belts, keys on the belt or in a pants pocket, wallet in a pants pocket, glasses on top of their head, etc. In other words, it is obvious that the vest isn't being worn for carrying anything.

Zombie Steve
December 30, 2007, 03:25 PM
Extreme shock -

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

Enjoy!

DMK
December 30, 2007, 03:45 PM
What is with the big sights on some shotguns now. This refers to both the military type iron sights and optical sights like aim points and eotechs. I guess I can see their value with slugs but the shotguns I have handled with such devices loose so much of their instinctive feel that I cannot see it being worth the trade off.I've actually considered putting a front sight and rear aperture in my shotgun. I don't shoot it much, spending most of my time shooting rifles or handguns. When I do shoot my shotgun it seems very 'off' just to have that bead and no rear sight. It doesn't feel right to me because I'm not used to it. Sure I should shoot the shotgun more, but then that would take away from the rifles and handguns.

I think that is why the military and police do it. Makes everything work the same way.


While I'm at it, maybe I'll have the shotgun parkerized and put on OD green furniture. :D

jfrey123
December 30, 2007, 03:57 PM
The only folks who associate cargo vests with carrying guns are gun people.


+1. As the younger noob, I didn't realize what a vest on a man could possible mean until I got involved on this forum. Before I knew about ccw'ing, I just thought guys in "fishing" vests just liked the vest.

Then after my research on this forum became more involved, it helped to change my thinking a bit. Now, everytime I spot a "tactical" vest, I try to play Spot the Gun. With my recently acquired permit, I've begun living in my fleece vest from Cabella's. This thing makes my little Bersa disappear even while bowling! I see quite a few winter and summer vests in my future :D

The Tourist
December 30, 2007, 07:05 PM
If the addition of components or alterations in clothing enhance your life, by all means, include them. But do not fool yourself into believing your skills have improved as if by a magic wand.

Chrysler sells a lot of new cars with the word "Hemi." One of their engines is 5.7 liters. There are 61 inches in a liter, hence the engines are 347 CI in size.
The Hemi engine of the muscle car era was 426 CI. This makes the modern engine "a hemi," and certainly not "the hemi."

But I remember when the first commercial came out. A modern truck was pulling a 1968 Dodge Charger. The joke revolved around just which vehicle did the rubes mean when they said, "That thing got a hemi?"

I carry Emerson knives. Mr. Emerson made some of his first products for Navy SEALs. You do not become a SEAL if I sharpen your CQC-7 for you.

And on and on. The Dirty Harry movies sure sold a lot of N-frames.

Edit: As a matter of fact, when I now hear the word "tactical" I believe that whatever product they mean, it is probably substandard, made in China and sprayed black.

Stevie-Ray
December 30, 2007, 09:12 PM
Chrysler sells a lot of new cars with the word "Hemi." One of their engines is 5.7 liters. There are 61 inches in a liter, hence the engines are 347 CI in size.
The Hemi engine of the muscle car era was 426 CI. This makes the modern engine "a hemi," and certainly not "the hemi."God, I'm about sick of Chrysler's hemis and them trying to make people think their hemis are the be all end all of engines. Are they putting them in their minivans yet?:rolleyes: One of Ford's hemis back in the 60s was so far above the Mopar 426 hemi, it wasn't even worth it to compare the 2. Yet Ford never used the word "hemi" talking about their engines. Maybe Ford is a little more "tactical.";)

I haven't seen a tactical vest around here, ever. 'Course in this area, if someone has a gun it is probably in plain sight and pointing at you. The tactical thing to do in this area is duck a lot.

The Tourist
December 30, 2007, 09:20 PM
I haven't seen a tactical vest around here, ever.

At our sporting goods store they sell food and half-size rolls of toilet paper.

What confounds me about these items is that the man who is too stupid to pack properly is supposedly smart enough to only buy official, tactical Rambo stuff.

Having said that, I wish I would have copyrighted the word "tactical."

che_70b
January 2, 2008, 08:19 AM
Perhaps I should give some clarity on my intitial post. It was mostly meant to be fun but there was some serious content. I find extreme shock to be very funny, I was curios if had any redeming value. The vest thing I wondered about becouse I use a vest for may reasons and find them to be picked on offten.

The shot gun sites part is something that I wanted some real opinions on probably shoud have asked seperately. I was raised learning to be a wing shooter and find a shotgun with a beed to be a natural extension of my arms. This is do to a lifetime of shooting them like that at small moving targets.

mordis
January 2, 2008, 09:45 AM
In regards to the Extreme shok ammo, If you use the search function youll find that its almost universaly regarded as a waste of money. It does not penetrate deep enough to reach most vitals and the CNS, but it was not designed to do so. While i do not know of the effectiveness of the E.S ammo, due in large part to no one having used it in a actual shooting, I wonder if the theroy behind the bullets is sound.

I watched what it does to water melons, and I am willing to be no one wants what happend to the inside of that melon to happen to there insides. I wonder if a bullet that penetrates around 6" but cuases massive tissue damage would indeed be a viable defensive round. E.S claims the massive tissue damage cuases shock and shutdown of the nervous system(at least thats how i interpreted there website).

I bet with some more research, and if someone would actually use this ammo in a real fight, so it can be improved apon, that oneday it would emerge as a viable alternative. Now I know someone will chime in with thoughts on the glaser ammo, but i dont really think thats applicable. They are not constructed the same way, nor do they act the same way in balistic gel.

Personaly i dont think the debate and questions that people have regarding this ammo, will ever go away till people start using it and seeing the results first hand.

The Tourist
January 2, 2008, 10:21 AM
It was mostly meant to be fun but there was some serious content.

I know what you mean. Humor is subjective, and I've gotten into a lot of trouble on the boards because of it.

However, I have always spoken plainly about the 'tactical' issue and gurus and their books and products.

Frankly, if you want to do anything well, it requires your time, some patience and probably an investment in training and proper equipment. What is worthless is a guy's DVD and a cheap knife. Spraying that cheap imported equipment black or cammo and selling it as 'tactical' is going to get some kid killed. My humor stops there.

ISC
January 2, 2008, 12:21 PM
I'd guess that a photographers vest would have the pockets and loops optimately sized to fit a photographer's equipment and accessories. I would think that if a vest is being marketed as a survival, tactical, or safari vest it might be optimized differently. I don't know, I have load bearing vests that I have to wear as part of my uniform, but I prefer an old school H harness when I can get away with it.

I like blade and notch sights on a shotgun, it's helpful when I'm making well aimed shots and doesn't get in thw way for rapid shots. I have no use for scopes or other gadgets on a scattergun though.

I think previous posters nailed it on the head when they described how overused the term "tactical" is, but it is a fitting way to describe the difference between the way you'd reload or shoot at the range versus the way you'd do it in a life threatening situation.

Main Entry: tac·ti·cal
Pronunciation: \ˈtak-ti-kəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1570
1: of or relating to combat tactics: as a (1): of or occurring at the battlefront <a tactical defense> <a tactical first strike> (2): using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <tactical missiles> bof an air force : of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces
2 a: of or relating to tactics: as (1): of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2): made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view b: adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose Tactical refers to Some weapons and gear have a more tactical use and

The Tourist
January 2, 2008, 12:36 PM
"tactical"...it is a fitting way to describe the difference between the way you'd reload or shoot at the range versus the way you'd do it in a life threatening situation.

I would agree if that criteria was the overriding factor. In that case, guns, clothes, knives--even vehicles--would be built with attributes needed to survive. But that's not the modern condition.

In most cases, the implements we use that are marketed as "tactical," are simply the same catalog products, just painted cammie. The function, the strength, the performance and the ultimate value is identical, it's just a different color at an inflated price.

In short, we're being bilked.

One TFL member here uses the term "tacti-cool." As insulting as that reference might be, he is accurate in his summation. Junk is marketed so we can all be Rambo.

ISC
January 2, 2008, 12:38 PM
that's so true.

Perldog007
January 2, 2008, 01:28 PM
The Dirty Harry movies sure sold a lot of N-frames.

Hey! I resemble that remark! Happily, after learning my lesson there I was immune to Miami Vice fever and Navy Seal fever, Heat fever, and many, many others.

I agree with the consensus. Marketing is the art of making us aware of the inadequacy of our lives due to lack of gadgetry and kit.

Me, I am waiting for X-treme tactical no money down before I buy anything else. Yup.