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pfch1977
December 24, 2007, 10:12 PM
Say you are approached by a fellow who then points a pistol at you and demands all your money. Since he's the guy with the gun, you happily hand over your wallet and anything he asks for.

However, he then moves to give your pockets a quick check to make sure they are empty and somehow then notices (by sight or feel or both) that you may be carrying. At this point, what would you do? He already has his gun out.

What other option do you have other than to hope you have a fast draw? How else can you resolve this situation? What if a complicating factor were to be added (you were walking with your wife for example).

Your feedback is well appreciated.

Mags
December 24, 2007, 10:25 PM
I'm not i expert but I would think that I woudnt allow him to get your gun. Therefore you would have to be versed in some sort of close combat defensive techniques to avoid getting shot and retrieve your own weapon quickly.

jfrey123
December 25, 2007, 01:01 AM
This is why anyone interested in being proficient in self defense needs to be competent in hand to hand combat. If that unfortunate scenario comes up where you need to fight tooth and nail, you'd better be ready to do it with and without your firearm.

In the scenario you've described, use that moment of surprise to put the focus onto his gun. Attempt to disarm him with a wrist lock and/or attempt to pry the weapon out of his hand. There are various moves you can do to put yourself between him and his firearm, thus keeping the barrel from pointing at you and keeping yourself in the fight.

IMO, if someone has the drop on you with a firearm at close range, your piece is automatically out of play. By the time you move to grab, make a presentation to target, and fire, the perp has already had PLENTY of time to open up on you. The only true option for me in a scenario where BG has his hands in my pants is to go for his weapon.

ISC
December 25, 2007, 01:23 AM
yawn....

AdamSean
December 25, 2007, 02:42 AM
It is difficult to say. There are many things one can do, but the first thing to consider is are you in enough danger to risk your life further. I have studied various types of martial arts for the past 18 years and have most recently learned the survival rate against a gun. It only takes a fraction of a second to pull a trigger. The only time you should ever try to disarm a gunman is if you have no other alternative. Only if you are sure he is going to kill you.

If he only wants my money or the gun in my pocket, then he can have them. I can always buy a new one. You only have a 50% chance of surviving this scenario.

hogdogs
December 25, 2007, 05:38 AM
Time to preach to the choir! Even the best choir is off key sometimes!
I don't care if anyone or everyone carries a concealed weapon. I don't care if anyone or everyone gets robbed...
That is out of the way, Right? if you get robbed at gun point... YOU LET DOWN YOUR GUARD.
I had a close friend who got held up out side a "gentleman's club", he was telling me the story of how fast it all went down and ended with a "if I had my pistol..." I stopped him right there and said "If you woulda had your pistol you woulda lost it to the thug!"
Yes I agree we could be off guard and lose our piece... But it needs to be a rare occurrence. Either armed with a gun or just our own wits we need to see these things coming. Armed or unarmed (metal weapon) I am not going to be a willing participant in my being robbed... If I am armed I have a duty to society to keep my gun from ending up in the hands of a criminal. I also have made the decision to carry and I put a high level of responsibility on that decision. Awareness is all I have to PREVENT a mugging or strong arm robbery targeted at me from being successful!
Brent

ISC
December 25, 2007, 05:52 AM
the answer is to throw the wallet in one direction and run away in the other to open the distance between you abd the mugger. If you want to draw once you're behind cover and try to recover your wallet, go for it, but unless you've got something worth risking your life for, leave it to him and break contact with a description. That would also give you the chance to call 911. If he shoots. pursues, or threatens then you can shoot him.

rampage841512
December 25, 2007, 10:08 AM
There are a lot of "if's" involved in every possible response, but I'd likely look for an opening to use my fists because there's little chance I'll draw before he can pull the trigger.

kgpcr
December 25, 2007, 11:13 AM
You are hosed. He clearly has the drop on you! you have no choice at this point. Also if you have handed over every thing you have why would he go through your pockets?? If if if is a big word if you can spell it.

Dwight55
December 25, 2007, 01:26 PM
+1 to ISC

May God bless,
Dwight

The Tourist
December 25, 2007, 01:48 PM
You are hosed. He clearly has the drop on you!

I agree. No matter if you were, or weren't, in condition white, you are now facing a very serious condition.

To be fair, you don't even know if he was going to silence you as a witness from the git-go.

To paraphrase Jerry Vancook, a bad chance is better than no chance at all. And you are within grappling distance since he's patting you down.

I'd cut him bad, deep and continuously. And I don't mean tweezing a hang-nail. I mean every artery and sinew of his throat, every tendon in his wrist and a few exploratory pokes in his thigh looking for his femoral artery.

No Bruce Lee stuff, either. Go fast, be quick. Every second the fight continues is another moment that exposes you to unknown peril. Hey, if he drops the gun and runs away, terrific. If he struggles, keep cutting until you find the off-switch by dumb luck.

What's that you say? You forgot your knife, too? Man, you really are boned...

Tanzer
December 25, 2007, 02:25 PM
the answer is to throw the wallet in one direction and run away in the other
This is a commonly accepted technique, and fairly good advice, I guess, from my admittedly limited training. However, the crooks have come up to speed on it & I have heard (no direct proof) that there has been an instance where the theif got either nervous or P.O.'d & shot the victim. I've heard it suggested that it's better to fumble with it and drop it as far away as you can, like you swatted to catch it. It gives you less time, but it puts Mr BG out of focus just as well. That is what I've heard, but to put it frankly:
You are hosed.
I earned a black belt in Tae Kwan Do in the early 90's, Now I'm Tae Kwan Slow. Hand to hand is absolute last resort - somewhere after "Look - It's Batman", & giving him a wedgie after he turns to look.

Hard Ball
December 25, 2007, 03:18 PM
"This is why anyone interested in being proficient in self defense needs to be competent in hand to hand combat."

+10 hand to hand skills are the solution to this problem

ssilicon
December 25, 2007, 03:58 PM
As has been said, the BG has the drop on ya. Takes very little time or effort to pull the trigger. It then really comes down to this... and this is hard because you are dealing with unknowns... do you think you will be shot no matter your level of cooperation? Do you think you will be shot if you attempt to run away (after throwing your wallet or not)? Do you think that your skill, strength whatever is awesome enough to beat his simple task of trigger pull while pointing at you? The best move depends on knowing th BG intent, and we really don't know that. You CANNOT go by what they say. Some will threaten to shoot you if you run but would not, others would say they will not shoot if you hand everything over like they ask but intend to shoot you anyway to eliminate you as a witness (or because it makes them feel good about themselves).

If you think that cooperation will buy your safety, then that is the play you should make. If you think you might be dusted no matter what... try to disarm him. It's the best chance you have cuz' he'd shoot you in the back if you ran. But then, maybe if you ran and made a lot of noise he might just want to get away ASAP. So hard to tell.

Tanzer
December 26, 2007, 11:32 AM
I did a bit of training towards disarming a perp with a gun. The pivots, parries, blocks, pressure points, strikes & all that. The techniques were always with the perp less than 5' away. If he has the smarts to stand 8' away, well.... I hope there's a few techniques that include rubber arms.

The Tourist
December 26, 2007, 12:22 PM
If he has the smarts to stand 8' away, well.... I hope there's a few techniques that include rubber arms.

And perhaps we should warn folks a bit more on the various elements of your positions.

For example, a strong young turk with highly defined fighting skills fresh off the boat from Iraq will probably have no trouble with the 21 foot rule.

Then again, I'm 57 years old. And let's be honest here, no Rambo stuff. I'm probably better at, well, cheating. The nice thing about being older is that you have seen every dirty trick in the book. If you're looking for a guy who delivers a poke in the eye and a knife in the groin, I'm your man.

The scenario here depicts "contact distance." This element of the debate always bothers me. Let me explain.

If you fear something, you back up. Have you ever been armed with the latest and greatest pistol, but then surprised by a barking dog.

My guess is that you instinctively crouched and backed up.

To my way of thinking, I guy who makes contact with you does not intrinsically fear you--and that bothers me. I do not intrinsically fear dandelions, so I jerk them out of the ground whenever I see them.

And so it is here. If the aggressor doesn't fear you, then the only threat you are is as a witness. If you're dead...

This is why I refer to Jerry Vancook. I believe scenarios are fluid. If two robbers keep saying, "Take the money and let's go," then they fear being caught worse than you. You might survive by doing nothing.

If I get that hinkie "you're a witness" feeling, then I have nothing to lose by inflicting as much damage as I can.

And like I always say, if there's a working cowboy in your group of victims, hide behind him!

bushidomosquito
December 26, 2007, 05:52 PM
Don't underestimate the power of a good sucker punch. I use to be very much into aikido type grappeling, joint locks and pressure point strike martial arts. I have also never been in a fight in my entire life but what gives me the most confidence is a pretty simple move that involves feigning fear and a HUGE desire not to get hurt and then throwing a much practiced and very fast punch to either the nose or adams apple and a solid knuckle or elbow hit to the temple will always put the lights out with a quickness. When you appear to be very afraid and unwilling to fight when confronted, the bg will almost always let his guard down. If your in pretty good shape and a decent actor, with some practice you'll find you can go from quivering coward to fist in his face in about the same time it takes to pull the trigger. Learn how to throw a VERY hard punch, much like sd shooting, the power behind it has more to do with speed and placement than power. Of course all things being equal, bigger fists tend to work better.:D

The acting thing can go pretty far in a lot of situations. I had my truck die once in the foulest of neighborhoods. I pulled over in front of your sterotypical crack house and called for help. About two miniuts later two guys came out of the house and knocked on my window. They asked me what I was doing there and made some comment about not liking "crackers" in their "hood". I opened the door, stepped out and said " If you knew why I was here, you wouldn't be talking to me. In fact, in about 20 miniuts, your gonna be hoping that nobody saw you talking to me." Then I looked over to a run down vacant house and knodded. They left without a word.


There is more to it than that, of course. With a gun in your face you have to constantly be acessing the situation. You'd be suprised how many thugs will point a gun at you which is unloaded, unchambered or has the safety on. You can tell at a glance if most modern handguns are ready to fire. Is the loaded chamber indicator out? Safety off? I remember when I was 16 and worked at subway, a guy walked in and pointed a big revolver at the night manager. He new a little about guns and opened the register, pulled out the alarm dollar and proceded to jump over the counter and knock several of the guys teeth out with his own gun. He had seen the empty chamber right to the left of the barrel and then the thug pulled the hammer back and he saw a hollowpoint come out from behind the barrel. Apparently the bg only put one round in the gun, right behind the barrel and didn't realize that the cylinder rotates when you pull the hammer. The hammer was dropped on the empty cylinder when the cops arrived. If a crook pulls out an XD and that giant chamber indicator is down, it's time to draw and savor that split second when he pulls the trigger and nothing happens.

If that gun looks ready to go, you still have the advantage of superior intelect since you haven't chosen a life of crime. If you get the chance to grab for the gun when it moves away from you, wrap your hand around the slide to keep it from cycling. That way his first shot goes into the ground and he'll be clearing a jam while your drawing and firing. With a revolver you have to get the web of your hand on the hammer and don't let go until he's dead or running. Then there's the old trick of a derringer in your wallet with a finger hole for the trigger. Of course most muggers just want the money and if they were going to kill you for being a witness, it would be easiest to shoot you without a word and then take your money.

threegun
December 26, 2007, 06:44 PM
Throwing a sucker punch while in the boxing gym or dojo is one thing. Throwing the same punch with death on the line is totally different. Same for shooting under life and death pressure. The answer is to not get caught off guard. If caught comply. If caught and believe you are about to get shot anyway either attack with extreme prejudice (if in contact range) or move as fast as possible (laterally if possible) while accessing your shootin iron.

bushidomosquito
December 26, 2007, 09:24 PM
I suggested the sucker punch as a last resort if you believe you would be shot anyway, not as an all purpose soloution to someone getting the drop on you. Of course the immediate next step would be to continue to apply said fast and hard punches and/or get out your gun.

KC135
December 27, 2007, 06:41 PM
pfch1977--- Read Sticky #5 before you post stuff that is not likely to happen.

IMO, if you are going to post a scenario, it should be from an actual documented event.

Then perhaps we could all learn something

Avenger11
December 27, 2007, 07:21 PM
I agree, hypoyheticals and imaginary scenarios do little to promote anything useful for most of us! I prefer real life experiences to learn from, as opposed to someones dreamland Scenario!!!

Glenn E. Meyer
December 27, 2007, 07:59 PM
ISC strategy - been there done that when I was a kid of 14. Gave the guy money and ran right past him.

Topthis
December 27, 2007, 10:01 PM
Personally, I also carry a few Poisoned Darts in my mouth, so that if I am ever confronted and can't get to my pistola...
Okay, just kidding, but seriously, hypothetical scenarios go right along with "The Bestest and Most Dangerous Gun/Caliber is...". It really is a matter of personal opinion and circumstance. No real correct answer...although there can me multiple dangerous and perhaps outright wrong answers. Just my bit.

The Tourist
December 27, 2007, 10:40 PM
multiple dangerous and perhaps outright wrong answers

For some aspects of this, I disagree. The scenario wants me to investigate two problem areas of being attacked.

Number one, it appears that condition yellow was not being used, or the good guy failed to heed or recognize warning signs while in yellow.

Number two, we all have lapses. The good part of this scenario would be to discuss options once the attack has begun and you are taken by surprise.

So, now what? Surrender or fight? How do we make the choice? We will be limited to stuff in our pockets and found objects on the ground. Which styles of MA disciplines would be the best for being surprised?

I don't think scenarios are bad. I do think they work the best when we--as a group--take the elements apart and try to figure out how we would save each other.

bushidomosquito
December 27, 2007, 10:57 PM
Maybe the "what if" scenarios wouldn't be so bad as to have their own warning sticky if people would discuss them if they sounded interesting and stayed away if they felt the need to give the old :rolleyes: and start complaining about their unlikelyness. I see plenty of subjects on TFL that don't intrest me in the least so I stay out of the discussion instead of jumping in and nitpicking. It's not like pfch asked what to do when mugged by a vampire zombie in a post TEOTWAWKI wasteland. If this topic seems to absurd for you then a very mature political discussion can be found in that direction.^

kgpcr
December 28, 2007, 01:08 AM
punching a guy with a gun pointed at you is silly. I am 6'3" 260 and spent my time in the Marines and i would not punch him. if you had to fight a guy with a gun throwing a punch will get you killed!

bushidomosquito
December 28, 2007, 01:50 AM
If you're a 6'3" Marine and you felt that you were about to be shot by a guy standing right by you, I imagine you would cave his face in at the first oppertunity. If not then perhaps that would be a job for the SEALs.:D

Hardtarget
December 29, 2007, 12:02 AM
When you are alone you MIGHT do something. I'm not alone all that often. My wife is with me most of the time. A knee replacement and 50 plus years will not let her run far or fast. I'm not sure what I'll do but it will be over fast...'cause I'm not leaving her side.

Mark.

The Tourist
December 29, 2007, 03:39 AM
I'm not sure what I'll do

This is why I like to read scenario threads. I don't think the responses you get are directives chiseled in stone. It's advice, food for thought, a different perspective with a fresh pair of eyes.

Everyone has a view and an agenda. I know I have two slants to my agenda.

The first applies here. My belief is that if you quit learning you become a dinosaur. You will turn 'old' in the negative sense of the word. I'm looking forward to the new Gander store they are building right now because that facility will sell handguns. There are many firearms I read about here that I have never seen or handled.

The second aspect of my agenda is to correct your (the editorial "your") views on motorcycles and edged implements. For example, when I tell some citizen I ride customized Harleys, the common response is, "Oh yeah, I saw the movie 'Easy Rider' once..."

The same with knives. Not one person is one hundred knows squat about either choosing a knife or sharpening it. Even fewer know how to take care of one. Even the "knowledge" that is out there comes out of monthly magazines.

And since much of this is the stuff of fairy tales, so is the realistic discussion of knives as it applies to scenarios here in TFL. If you don't know 'jack' about a subject, how can you advise someone on vital information he might need to save his life?

And what if you tell him something that gets him killed?

And that is the real value of scenario forums. I know a little about knives, a gunsmith member knows info on the mechanics of firearms, a war veteran can give us details on how we react to stress, an MA sensei provides training in hand-to-hand fighting and TSR smacks me around in a debate.

With this info, we apply the concepts to safety and security issues in our private lives.