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View Full Version : Empty Clip...or Aim?


Reaperatm
December 18, 2007, 10:24 PM
I think you guys get the point just from the title. But i'll go over what i'm thinking any way. Vehicle situation specifically. I walk up to vehicle, suspect/driver fires rounds at me. Would it be smarter to return fire with the whole magazine, or would you be better served to take that extra second and aim while being shot at eventhough you are shooting through glass/steel and the bullet could be ricochet off course?

I'm not talking about a bad guy in house situation, mainly vehicle shoot out or car jacking

ETA: I personally think it only takes one well aimed bullet to get any job done...maybe two if your ****** :) (rifle or pistol), thats why i carry a 1911 SA Champion and not a high-cap G21SF. but i'd like to hear your opinions, i was just watching a police training tape and it shows the officer emptying his Glock 17, and he kills the guy (approx 6-9 feet away)

I KNOW ITS NOT CLIP, BUT I LOVE THE WORD

teeroux
December 18, 2007, 10:41 PM
IMO emptying a clip into the car could yield colateral damages by way of riccochets and overpenetration and i wouldnt recomend not aiming, unless you were very close to vehicle (a few feet) and able to just point your weapon at the BG.

give em a double tap or just a few rounds to be sure you get at least one on target, it might not look good in court if you put 15 rounds in a vehicle and kill a BG and he only fired 2 or 3 times.

Chesster
December 18, 2007, 11:19 PM
Always aim unless you are blind. In that case, listen, point and then empty the mag.

Bill DeShivs
December 18, 2007, 11:21 PM
Learn to point shoot.

evan1293
December 18, 2007, 11:35 PM
Its important to understand that there is no "one shot-stop gurentee" with any handgun cartridge, even a .45. Your best bet is to place your shots into 'key areas' of the threat.

Unless your in the military and the situation calls for it, you should never need to just empty the magazine blindly to supress an enemy. As a civillian you will need to be able to shoot fast and hard especially upclose, but you had better keep those rounds on target as best as you can. A well trained shooter can keep all his /her shots on target at moderate ranges about as fast as they can pull the trigger. This can be done with either point shooting or using the sights or a mix of both. You should always see what you need to see if your going to shoot. Just banging off rounds is a liabilty.

jhenry
December 18, 2007, 11:37 PM
Your plan, stated or otherwise, should never be to resolve the situation by emptying the magazine (not clip). The plan is to stop the threat, and do so by acting in a resonable manner, which of course can be deadly force if the situation warrants it. Spray and pray just ain't it. Use the sights, learn to aquire a flash sight picture, learn to point shoot, whatever, just train to put the lead where it is needed.

Reaperatm
December 18, 2007, 11:41 PM
Ok guys, clarifying here. I am within 10 feet, not "spraying and praying" general direction shooting. Nothing behind the target. Shots have already been fired at me, lethal force is more than warranted. My questions is do i take that extra second to line up my sights (while being shot at) for an accurate shot, or i do i point shoot?


P.S. I KNOW ITS NOT CLIP, BUT I LOVE THE WORD SO LEAVE ME ALONE (don't make me give you the reason, for it is too dirty for here at the TFL ;) ), im not looking to get grilled, im looking for answers/opinions to a scenario

evan1293
December 18, 2007, 11:45 PM
At 10' you should be able to point shoot accurate shots all day. If it were me at that distance I would PS but I would be looking through my sights and seeing them in my peripheral vision while maintaining a hard target focus. If the distance was doubled I'd pick up the sights just a tad more. Doubled again (40') Im using my sights. You've got to go out and practice to see what works for you.

Reaperatm
December 18, 2007, 11:52 PM
i can pointshoot well at 10', most can. But would I be able to make an accurate enough shot fast enough before getting hit myself. Remember, i am in the open, the driver has "some" cover sitting in his car. I would also be running back to the squad car at the same time for cover. But would it be wiser to slow/stop and line up my sights, or just point shoot while running to the car for cover?

The whole reason i ask, is because i saw a video on it, and i'm not sure if what the officer did was right, but for him it worked. Obviously, it will most likely never happen to me, but it could. Biggest rule, all suspects are armed until proven otherwise ;)

evan1293
December 19, 2007, 12:02 AM
[QUOTE]i can pointshoot well at 10', most can. But would I be able to make an accurate enough shot fast enough before getting hit myself.

Thats dependant on too many factors to say for sure. How good of a shot is the threat? How fast are you? How effective are your rounds on the target? etc....



Remember, i am in the open, the driver has "some" cover sitting in his car. I would also be running back to the squad car at the same time for cover. But would it be wiser to slow/stop and line up my sights, or just point shoot while running to the car for cover?

I wouldn't recommend stopping. I would say first get off the X. If he's in his car and your on his driver's side, move parallel with his car to his rear. Its hardest for him to engage you from his 7 o'clock or 5 o'clock position (if your on the passenger's side.) If your vehicle is parked in line with his driver's window and you have to move along his line of fire to get to cover, I'd say forget cover and move to his rear. Most likely if its a traffic stop your cruiser is behind his car so you'll have the added bonus of your cruiser's cover upon moving to his rear.

The whole reason i ask, is because i saw a video on it, and i'm not sure if what the officer did was right, but for him it worked. Obviously, it will most likely never happen to me, but it could. Biggest rule, all suspects are armed until proven otherwise

If it worked, he did it right. Assuming all suspects are armed is a good idea.

rugerdude
December 19, 2007, 01:19 AM
Focus on target, bring the gun up into your view and fire. You won't need to align the sights at that distance and it won't matter anyway.

Fire as many shots as you need to fire in order to stop the threat.

obxned
December 19, 2007, 01:37 AM
Both, and rapidly!

exprt9
December 19, 2007, 03:22 AM
+1 on learn to point shoot!

rbrgs
December 19, 2007, 08:13 AM
This is an excellent example of a why to learn to point shoot.

At 6'-10', shots already fired, you don't have a extra second to find the sights, you need to hit the BG immmediatly, if only to spoil his aim.

Regardless of what internet commandos say about using sights, you will focus on the threat (lets not even talk about tunnel vision or sensory exclusion). I can put rounds where I look, and 10' is inside my head shot envelope; draw and watch the rounds hit.

In answer to the specific question, what you'll do is return fire immediately without even looking for the sights, the question is whether you just spray and pray, or know how to point shoot and get hits.

Double Naught Spy
December 19, 2007, 09:06 AM
Empty Clip...or Aim?

...is a strange question that gives the impression that there are just two possible firing solutions for the situation, that one involves not aiming, and gives the impression that the options are binary opposites.

You shoot to stop the threat. It my require one shot, two, six, emptying the MAGAZINE (I know it is MAGAZINE, I love the proper terminology), and maybe even reloading with a new magazine. You may accomplish it with unaimed contact shooting, point shooting, or aimed shooting.

The notion that we can determine the firing solution of such a hypothetical future situation is a bit naive. It is unlikely that the situation in which a shooting will occur will be overly simple like the example. You may need aimed shooting of ever shot you have, but be unable to accomplish the task for any number of reasons.

ATW525
December 19, 2007, 09:42 AM
First priority is to get off the X! Sighted fire or point shooting doesn't much if you're dead. Return fire any which way you can while moving to the nearest available cover, and then you can assess the situation once you get there.

Manedwolf
December 19, 2007, 09:46 AM
Look at what happened in NYC. Cops panic-sprayed at a car. 50 rounds fired. Only 21 hit the car.

29 went on to hit occupied houses and a train station.

Where do you think your missed shots go? Do you have any idea of the range and barrier penetration of your chosen caliber?

AIM.

Erik
December 19, 2007, 10:12 AM
I submit that the premis is flawed:

It is not all or nothing; too much time sighting or too much time missing.

Sighted fire can come awfully quickly, measured in sub-secoind increments.

Unsighted fire can be accurate enough, measured in "minute of target area."

scsov509
December 19, 2007, 01:55 PM
I believe you always fire 2-3 shots and then assess to see if additional shots are needed. Let me suggest three reasons that I think emptying an entire magazine is bad:


It is irresponsible. I'm the one ultimately responsible for where every round I fire from my weaapon ends up. So, I don't ever fire a shot that is not deliberately placed.
It is ineffective. When it comes to shooting of any kind, shot placement is king. So the practice of emptying an entire magazine hoping that a few shots will find their mark is just wrong. It is far more effective to place deliberate shots.
It is tactically wrong. Imagine that this situation evolves in just a matter of seconds (BG in home, carjacking, etc), and I draw and empty my entire magazine into the threat that first presented. Now I have an empty weapon, and I realize that there is another BG in the home or a second BG in the carjacking. I don't want to be empty when a second threat appears if I didn't need to fire my entire magazine in the first place. Plus, what happens if after two or three shots my weapon jams or malfunctions? That might not matter as much if I've already placed my first shots well, but it might be the difference between life and death if I'm simply firing with the anticipation of having the full magazine at my disposal.

Thumper
December 19, 2007, 01:55 PM
Precisely what Double Naught Spy said.

leadcounsel
December 19, 2007, 03:00 PM
Move laterally and diagonally toward cover/concealment and learn to point shoot / return fire.

angeldeville
December 19, 2007, 05:53 PM
Be sure you empty the gun and any spare magazines before assessing the situation, that way the BG in the back seat with the shotgun, has a chance to shoot back when you are empty.

Creature
December 19, 2007, 06:05 PM
Seeing as how I am responsible for every bullet I fire, I will definitely be aiming my shot/s.

Avenger11
December 19, 2007, 06:36 PM
Another scenario thread! Sorry this ones closed!

kgpcr
December 19, 2007, 08:05 PM
I would get off a few well placed rounds while moving to cover.

OldShooter
December 19, 2007, 08:41 PM
I would get out of the line of fire, obviously he has the drop on you already. Then again, in this scenario it sounds like you could be the car jacker, so I don't care if you get blasted.

I think this is the kind of scenario we were warned about posting. Good luck.

evan1293
December 19, 2007, 11:40 PM
Another scenario thread! Sorry this ones closed!

It is ???

workinwifdakids
December 21, 2007, 10:32 PM
...is no enforcement at all.

Charlie just closed a threat because he said he doesn't want law-enforcement tactics discussed on the board. Now we have a discussion on law enforcement tactics using the word 'clip.' What's next, FBI agents discussing fully-automatic bolt-action rifles?

Deaf Smith
December 21, 2007, 11:18 PM
The only reason to winchester a gun is to give covering fire so you, or others, can get to cover. That is suppressive fire. It's ok especially if you have enough ammo to give some real suppression of the incomming fire (5 shot J frames don't do so well.)

I can see if suddenly fired upon by someone in a car that is difficult to hit one might fire as fast as they could wile retreating (or advancing). Some type of ambush situation.

But for most SD situations, if you can see what you need to shoot, then aim and hit it.

Tanzer
December 22, 2007, 09:54 AM
My uncle, a retired LEO, just left 5 minutes ago. I showed him this OP, he read it, shook his head and asked: "Why the h*ll would a cop even ask that question, I put my glasses on for that"?
I'm no cop, but I know several. It seems this would be well covered in training. Yeah, you do what you need to in real-life, but emptying a "clip"?
So the place is littered with brass & glass, and you have an empty sidearm. You're going to explain this to your superiors....How?
I've got to agree with my uncle.

Capt Charlie
December 22, 2007, 12:35 PM
Another scenario thread! Sorry this ones closed!

It is ???
Yup, it is ;).