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whitefish
December 18, 2007, 08:42 PM
I have to say that I'm not impressed with Nosler Accubonds as an all around bullet in high power rifles such as the 300 Win Mag. Here's my experiences so far - all are broadside shots:

The Good:

The first is a 200 yard shot at a 4x5 bull elk with a 180gr Accubond in factory ammo from a 300WM. The bullet entered and exited the back just below the spine and behind the shoulder. There was a 1-2 inch entry and exit wound. The bull dropped immediately and no wasted meat.

The Bad:

Two years ago I shot the same round from a 300WM at large cow elk at about 75 yards. The bullet hit the front part of the shoulder and exploded. There was a fair amount of damaged meat and I believe most of the shoulder was toast. No exit wound.

The Ugly:

This year I shot a young cow at 55 yards with the same round and gun. The bullet nicked the back part of the shoulder and, again, exploded. It made a four inch hole in the ribs behind the shoulder and flew apart. Two pieces blew through the guts and exited the back side of the opposite ribs. I was not a happy camper.

Now I realize some will say that at that range a 300WM is too much gun, and I wouldn't disagree. But, like some, I chose the 300WM as an all around rifle to go after deer, elk and moose. I chose the Accubond as a bullet to do this at all ranges. However, after these last two elk, I will never use an Accubond or possibly any other "premium bonded" bullet for anything under 100 yards.

Have others had similar experiences? What bullet would people recommend for short range shots in a 300WM?

taylorce1
December 18, 2007, 09:32 PM
I don't know why they aren't working for you, but I like the Partition. Hard to beat the proven performance of these bullets and they were designed for magnum shooters. I know they are more expensive than the Accubond but I've had great luck with them.

The second thing I'll recommend is if they are inside of 100 yards avoid the shoulder at all costs. I don't know what kind of muzzle velocity you have but I'd have a guess you are around 3000 fps possibly more if you hand load. Both bullet explosions you talk about have one thing in common you hit heavy bone at close range. Elk don't need a shoulder taken out to put them down, double lung takes them down quick too.

whitefish
December 18, 2007, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the suggestions taylorce1. I have a buddy that swears by Barnes so I might try those as well.

As for shoulder shots, the first one was out of necessity (the cow spun on me and I had to get a quick shot off). The second was me getting trigger happy and likely stringing to the right. I really need to learn to slow down.

That said, I still would like a bullet that will be somewhat forgiving if I "accidentally" hit the shoulder. So far I'm leaning to the Barnes Triple X, Swift A-Frame or a TBBC. I'd try a Partition as well, but I read the front part of the partition wipes off at 300WM speeds at short range.

jrothWA
December 18, 2007, 10:26 PM
for use in a .308, M70 rifle, M88 lever & m100?
Living here in Washington, may try next fall for an Elk.
Can reload, presently using Sierra 165gr SPBT or HPBT for Michigan whitetail.

taylorce1
December 18, 2007, 10:35 PM
A Partition might loose the front portion of the bullet but the rest of it will continue to penetrate. I've read a lot of complaints about a lot of bullets not working properly since I've been hunting but I've never once read where a Partition has failed. I'm not saying that they haven't but they are the oldest "Premium" hunting bullet on the market and they have the kinks worked out. Partitions are still the benchmark by which all premium bullets are compared to, kind of like the .30-06 they may not be perfect but it does the job 99% of the time. They have been around since 1948 and here is a little info on them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosler

Now that I'm off my soap box, I think the other bullets you mentioned are worth a shot as well. The thing I really don't like about the TBBC is the expense. I can only buy 25 per box and they cost the same if not more than what I could get a box of 50 Partitions or TSX bullet for. I've no experience with Barnes bullets yet I've got some to reload but haven't done it yet. The Swift bullets are a little to expensive for my tastes as well but the A-Frame is a copy of the Partition and the Scirocco is similar in design to the Accubond and Interbond bullets.

for use in a .308, M70 rifle, M88 lever & m100?
Living here in Washington, may try next fall for an Elk.
Can reload, presently using Sierra 165gr SPBT or HPBT for Michigan whitetail

If you are worried about what you are using now then step up to 180 grain Sierra in your .308. The 165 SPBT will probably work fine but if you want a little extra insurance swap it for a premium bullet or go heavier. At the .308 Win speeds there really isn't a need for a premium bullet like there is for the .300 Win Mag at close range as you will already be a good 3-400 fps slower with bullets of equal weight. I've killed elk with plain old Winchester CXP3 Silver Box 180 grain .30-06 and Federal Premium 150 grain Partitions in .270 Win, couldn't tell the difference in performance between them from 50 yards to around 250.

whitefish
December 18, 2007, 10:52 PM
Again, thanks for the suggestions. I might give the partitions a try as well.
I just wish I grabbed a box of them instead of the accubonds for reloading. My dad doesn't know what the fuss is. He's shot plenty of elk and moose with a 30-30 under 75 yards. I might have to resort to that :rolleyes:

As an added note, I've used 180gr Winchester PowerPoints on deer over a 100 yards with great results. These were in the rib cage. I did destroy one, but it was again at about 50-75 yards and I hit the hip on a running shot.

jrothWA, my dad has had good success with Winchester SilverTip (not to be confused with the Ballistic SilverTip). All elk shot at less than 200 yards.

taylorce1
December 18, 2007, 11:04 PM
Tell you what whitefish, PM me your mailing address and I'll send you a box of 180 grain Partitions to try.

whitefish
December 18, 2007, 11:47 PM
Done...thanks!

whitefish
December 19, 2007, 11:07 AM
taylorce1, I have an opportunity to get a .444 Marlin (Microgroove 1:38 twist barrel) on trade for a Rangefinder that I hardly use. Would the .429.430 pistol bullets in say a Nosler Partition or Hornady Leverevolution experience the same problems of blowing up going through the shoulder at close range? I'm interested in getting this gun for close range brush hunting like my last elk.

Speaking of bones and blown up bullets, I've read that supercharged Accubonds (magnum velocities at close range) will disintergrate or deflect if any bone is hit, including the ribs. Scirocco's were marginally better.

taylorce1
December 19, 2007, 11:42 AM
I think any bullet you put through a .444 Marlin will work on elk. I don't know much about it but I can't imagine the speed of the bullet being much over 2200 fps if that. I've never heard of a bullet blowing up out of a slow mover like this rifle. Should work just fine I'd think for close range elk.

BTW did you check out that link I sent you?

whitefish
December 19, 2007, 12:42 PM
Again, thanks for the suggestions. I think I will pick up the .444 ;)

I did check out the Nosler Partition link you provided - interesting. Again, the only concern I have come across with partitions in .30 cal's is the front half of the bullet getting wiped off at anything over 30-06 velocities. That said (as you mentioned earlier), the rear part of the unexpanded bullet remains and continues on.

Here's a test on the 250gr .429 Partition:

http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/444Marlin.html

Here's a test on the 180 gr .30 partition in Gun Tests on a 30-06:

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/mar96premium.html

and on the .300 WM

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/oct97gggwinmags.html

davlandrum
December 19, 2007, 01:15 PM
Sorry the Accubonds aren't working for you. This was the first year I used them - some handloads that my hunting buddy and I worked up and they performed very well in my 30-06.

I hit a mule deer right on the shoulder joint (tough angle that I pulled the shot on :o). Dropped it, but required a finish shot.

Recovered the first bullet (it ended up just under the skin) and it had retained 90% of its wieght.

But again - that was from a 30-06.

whitefish
December 19, 2007, 01:19 PM
davlandrum, what distance were you shooting?

davlandrum
December 19, 2007, 02:13 PM
Guestimate 75 yards +/-

nosualc
December 19, 2007, 05:04 PM
I shot a very large (250lb+) Ontario whitetail with an Accubond this year. Bullet entered just behind right shoulder, through the heart/lung, broke the left shoulder and exited. The deer made it about 30 yards before piling up.

165gr., .308 Winchester, Federal Premium factory load. 50 yards (exactly).

Very little blood trail, which I found odd.

-nosualc

Trapp
December 19, 2007, 09:05 PM
Don't have any experience with accubonds, but here is my "Disappointing bullet" story:

I have a few hundred of these hornady 150gr SPT's (30'06). I shot a 120lb spike (they don't get very big here). I recovered the bullet. It weighed 68 gr.

The bullet was being pushed by 50gr IMR 4064 according to the book it was traveling at around 2900fps and hitting with 2800lbs of energy.

The bullet left my rifle and hit the front leg bone (equivalent to the femur?). It then ripped through the brisket and ended up under the skin on the outside of the opposite shoulder. Some where in its travels (maybe the other 70gr of bullet) it also jabbed through a piece of the left lung. I shot low and it was a perfect broadside (got it on video!!). I had NO EXIT wound at 80yds.

The deer only went 20 yds before it lye down. Course I went after it too early, jumped it, lost it, and found it the next day....

whitefish
December 19, 2007, 10:35 PM
I just checked the Federal Cartridge Site:

At a hundred yards a 165gr 308 Accubond has 2542 ft/s with 2366 ft/lbs of energy (its 2730 ft/lbs at the muzzle). A 180gr 300WM Accubond is going 2744 ft/s at a hundred yards with 3075 ft/lbs of energy. At the muzzle its 3502 ft/lbs of energy.

Heres a pic of the elk I shot. Not a huge one, but I think the size had little to do with the accubonds performance.

taylorce1
December 19, 2007, 11:01 PM
Well, I finally sorted through all the information that was in those links you posted. So my favorite Partition bullet didn't win, but I've got a few animals to know that it works. I know a few people will disagree with me but newspapers aren't a very good test medium for how bullets will perform on game. The second test where they used water, bacon, and bone was a better test medium IMO. I'll stick with Partitions until it quits working, kind of like I do with Sierra bullets. I've heard all kinds of bad stuff about them failing but I've never seen it, guess I'm kind of hard headed that way.

Shame that .444 Marlin you are going to get has that Microgroove barrel I think some heavy cast bullets might be the way to go in that cartridge. Seems like a good rifle for elk and deer at close range, but the problem is when you hunt with it you'll wish you had your .300 Win. Thats hunting for you what you have may not be what you need at the time.

Nice looking cow, looks like she piled up pretty quick after the shot. All elk are big when you got them on the ground and you are all by yourself. Even the young ones are much bigger than most deer.

Wildalaska
December 19, 2007, 11:18 PM
This brings a good thread to mind.

WildthanksAlaska TM

whitefish
December 20, 2007, 12:32 AM
Shame that .444 Marlin you are going to get has that Microgroove barrel I think some heavy cast bullets might be the way to go in that cartridge. Seems like a good rifle for elk and deer at close range, but the problem is when you hunt with it you'll wish you had your .300 Win. Thats hunting for you what you have may not be what you need at the time.

No worries, I won't be giving up the 300 Winny anytime soon. I have a 30-30 Marlin for close range deer and the 444 Marlin might be good addition for elk/moose under 100 yards.

That said, I know what your saying. If I could have a bullet for my 300 that will do everything at all ranges, great. Otherwise, I would easily accept carrying a two or three bullet/ammo types to cover all the bases.

Bottom Gun
December 20, 2007, 07:39 PM
Partitons have worked very well in my .338 WM from point blank range to about 350 yd, which is my self imposed max range.
I have also had good success with them in .308 and .30-06.

So far as I'm concerned, Partitions are a good all around bullet and one of the more cost effective premium bullets.
I don't use anything else for serious hunting. I've used them for 30 yr. I can't think of a better endorsement.

whitefish
December 21, 2007, 09:16 AM
We cut the elk up yesterday. Still some wasted meat from cherry bloom, but mostly spots where there gut contents was or could not be washed from the carcass.

As an update, the bullet went through the shoulder blade, but never touched the leg bones. After that, it made the four inch hole in the ribs and deflected/fragmented through the guts and exited in two pieces on the back end of the off side ribs.

What was left is still tasty though :)

Iosco-Bucks
December 25, 2007, 10:02 PM
My cousin dumped a 7pt this season with that Federal Accubond. Same caliber - 300 Win. When we asked him how far the deer ran, he said that the buck fell 2 ft. That deer was maybe 40 yards out when he shot it, so pretty close.

I guess we haven't shot enough of that ammo to find the quirks. I'll keep it in mind though the next time I buy ammo. I have shot my share of the Nosler Partition ammo. Never been disappointed with it.

whitefish
December 28, 2007, 09:27 PM
Iosco-Bucks, what bullet weight was your cousin using? Was the shot through the ribs? I've yet to make a boiler room shot with the Accubond - maybe it will perform well if shot at light bone like ribs.

I guess ultimately, shot placement is the most important. I'll try to take taylorce1's advice and avoid the shoulder at ranges less then 100 yards.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!

Twud
December 29, 2007, 08:06 AM
Been shooting 180's out of my 300 Wby for 20 years and they have never let me down. It's true the nose of the bullet will fragment away at close range, but the back end will stay together no what.
At over 150 yards I will only take a lung shot. You need to be patient and wait for the lungs to fill with blood before following up. This shot results in no loss of useable meat.

srtrax
December 29, 2007, 11:42 AM
I used the Nosler Balistic Tip in my 338/06 for the last 4 to 5 years and never had a deer take a second step. Now no longer made i went to the same weight...180 gr. Accubond. Thought they may shoot a little diffrent so i took what was left of the BTs and the Accubonds (same case, and same load) and shot them side by side. Much to my surprise they shot in the same place. I took a nice 8 point with the 338/06 and the 180s in the Accubond and they did work. It was the first time that i had one run on me, but only about 30 yds and 20 of that there was no blood trail, but when i found it there was blood all over the place the remaining few yards. The shot was just behind the shoulder and was a complete pass threw at around 150 yds. As with the BTs there was nothing left in the boiler room but chunks and blood...worked out O.K. but i do miss the Balistic Tips> The Accubonds are accrute in this rifle and this is just my one experience with them, so i'll try them another season or two or three or...:)

taylorce1
December 29, 2007, 11:55 AM
Nice gun you got there Strax, what action is your .338-06 on? I have one built on a 1903 Springfield action. I've been using 200 grain Hornady Interlock SP in mine getting MOA accuracy with IIRC 56.5 grains of RL15, don't have my book handy. I've been thinking of stepping up to the 210 Partition as I'll use mine more for elk than deer, I thought about the 200 grain Accubonds but I just like the Partitions so much it is hard to try something new. When I bought the rifle I got a box of 200 grain Nosler B-Tips with it, I've opened the box and looked at them but have never bothered to load them, I know they are not 180's but if you want them send me a PM.

Iosco-Bucks
December 29, 2007, 01:15 PM
Whitefish,

In response to your question, "Iosco-Bucks, what bullet weight was your cousin using? Was the shot through the ribs? I've yet to make a boiler room shot with the Accubond - maybe it will perform well if shot at light bone like ribs." He was shooting 180 grain bullets. The rifle he was using actually belongs to me, but since I couldn't be there for the opener, I let him use it.

Prior to buying that ammo, however, I was using Hornady load in 165gr, which is around the weight I wanted to stay at with that rifle. I took it out to the range before the season and burned up most of what I had left in that box. When I went out looking for another box, I couldn't find any. So, what I ended up doing in picking out this box of Federal Premium in 180s and after re-sighting in with that ammo, I sent him out with it.

According to him, it was a near perfect rib/heart shot. I guess there wasn't much left of it. The deer buckled where he was standing. My cousin didn't mind not having to track it, that's for sure.

Happy New Year to you, too.

whitefish
December 30, 2007, 11:22 AM
I definately aim for the lungs when I can. For this last elk, I likley pulled to the right and/or hurried up the shot. I was sitting in a little thicket of spruces and was shooting from a kneeling position. I had a small window to shot through and I didn't even have time to get my see through scope covers off! I suppose I could have tried for a neck shot, but I like the chest. I shot higher beause there were some willows that I had to shoot over.

I knew going into this spot that shots would have been 75 yards at best. I was worried about the Accubonds at short range given my experiences with PowerPoints at short range. The Accubonds may not have deflected if I shot into the ribs, but I don't think I'm going to take that chance again. I'm going to load up some short range loads capped with a tougher bullet (partition, Triple X or A-Frame). I'll still use Accubonds for longer shots (150 yards+), but use the tougher bullets for shorter "timber" ranges.

I think I'll take up taylorce1's advice and stick with the 300 for most of my hunting excusions - close or long range. I'll just match the bullets to the range. And of course, practice, practice, practice. We'll see how those Accubonds work on yotes! :D

whitefish
December 30, 2007, 11:28 AM
Been shooting 180's out of my 300 Wby for 20 years and they have never let me down. It's true the nose of the bullet will fragment away at close range, but the back end will stay together no what.
At over 150 yards I will only take a lung shot. You need to be patient and wait for the lungs to fill with blood before following up. This shot results in no loss of useable meat.

It's not so much of having the bullet stay together - it did stay together. The problem is that it deflected more than 45 degrees and went out the back part of the offside ribs after demolishing the guts. Again, had I hit the ribs, it may have been a different story, maybe not.

srtrax
December 30, 2007, 01:19 PM
Taylorce1: P.M. sent

CK1
January 1, 2008, 09:33 PM
I think your problem is the speed the Accubond is doing at impact. I believe Nosler says 3100 fps or less on the Accubond at impact. I had the similar problems with the BT in my .257 Weatherby but haven't had the problem with the Accubond if my velocity is slower. If I anticipate a close up shot, I'll use something slower like my .308 or go to a partition or TSX.

CK

whitefish
January 2, 2008, 11:50 AM
These were factory Federal loads with 180gr Nosler Accubonds. Published velocity values from Federal website are 2960 f/s at the muzzle (older published data showed this as 3010 ft/s at the muzzle). Using the higher value and my ballastics software, the bullet was likely going between 2900 to 2925 ft/s at 50 yards - under the limit of 3100 ft/s, but not by much.

That said, I agree that the problem is still speed and bullet construction. 180 gr accubonds will not stand up to 300WM velocities at close range. I'm going to try some 220gr partitions loaded to 30-06 velocities and see how bad the groups are.