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View Full Version : Different Way to Shoot: The C.A.R. System - Take A Look


gvf
December 9, 2007, 01:47 PM
This is something called CAR system: different stance and gun grip, wrist canted as well:


2 of a number of videos:

http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/Speed_1.mpg

http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/45.mpg

And discussion:

http://www.pointshooting.com/carmag.htm

I know 0 about it but thought it looked interesting. What do you think?

Boris Bush
December 9, 2007, 01:59 PM
Since you asked my opinion..... I got a good laugh. I have no clue what he was trying to do in that first video, looked like a dance. If he ever gets into a real gunfight and trys that against 3 badguys he is dead. When you stop shooting paper and your targets advance and shoot back your best friend is a buddy that can shoot that is with you, distance and cover. Dancing and funky grips will get someone killed. All one needs to survive is the basics. Triger control, sight control, breath control, distance and cover..........

npcolin
December 9, 2007, 07:55 PM
Looks kind of like hip shooting except with two hands. Therefore you can still control the gun even if you brought it up at chest level. I'd say it may worth a look for close range intense gun fights but any distance calling out for the use of sights may not be so appropriate. However, it may still be effective at mid range gun fights if you practise it a lot. And I mean A LOT.

Archie
December 10, 2007, 12:53 AM
I'll stick with what works.

Jeff22
December 10, 2007, 01:03 AM
Check out these links:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215309&highlight=central+axis+relock

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216247&highlight=central+axis+relock

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113113&highlight=central+axis+relock

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=15576&highlight=Paul+Castle

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137330&highlight=Paul+Castle

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=53135&highlight=Paul+Castle

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=49440&highlight=Paul+Castle

I don't have any training in the CAR system myself, so at this point I don't have any opinion about the method one way or another.

The system is certainly controversial . . .

gvf
December 10, 2007, 02:04 AM
I started the thread and tried the stance and grip at the range tonight - though this is strictly my idea of it from descriptions etc.

My biggest problem was the sight-picture with, as usual, both eyes open: looking at the target the gun visually was a distinct double image and visa-versa, seems a natural phenomenon since the gun is closer to the eye than usual. Maybe you'd acclimate , but this was a real distraction.

However, I think from what I've read, just tossing this system out with a laugh is not giving it justice, for some rave about it. So, I'll stick to my first statement: I think it's interesting but don't know it.

Perldog007
December 23, 2007, 12:16 PM
I have gotten used to shooting with both eyes open. Took some time though. Was doing it for dry fire long before I could remember to do it when the brass was flying.

Looks interesting. I am going to take a Utah course next November if all goes well. That particular instructor should know something about it. In the meantime I will continue to make avoidance job one and continue to practice.

angeldeville
December 23, 2007, 12:22 PM
is the point to make sure your magazine is empty after firing at the last seen threat?

Tanzer
December 23, 2007, 08:33 PM
It's been an hour since I viewed the video. I tried to picture it, but I just can't, unless I was in a room with a five foot ceiling.

OldShooter
December 23, 2007, 08:37 PM
The "Natural Point of Focus" sounds like something concocted by someone trying to sell something. I am dubious of that concept and therefore the whole scenario. Most people with "normal" vision can focus from very close to infinity. They have to differentiate themselves from every other schoold of shooting to be able to attract clients. I'm not likely to be a client.

In the first video, while he's putting 4 shots into the first target, the other two will be killing him. The second video didn't work for me so I don't know what I missed.

kgpcr
December 23, 2007, 08:37 PM
i too will stick with what worked for me in the Marines

mordis
December 28, 2007, 05:21 PM
you shouldnt judge something before you try it. Besides, some training is better then none. While i have my doubts of the merits of his foot work and how many shots he placed in one target, I think the grip and stance of his arms and the way he holds the gun deserves some research and discussion on our part. Maybe not take all of what there is in that film, but some of the aspects of it have merit He was quickly and accurately placing shots from a .45acp, a feat that is not easy. I have yet to get to the point were i can fire my 1911 milspec that fast or as accurately using the iron sights. The only time i come close is when i point shoot.

The way he was holdiing the gun, is interesting. According to the sight, it helps with recoil. If that is true, then it might be worth trying to take that grip and apply other parts of different styles of training. Say better foot work, and better target selection. I feel he focused on specific targets to long.

I think with some refinement, this could be a viable tool for the bag.

Edit, i just realized they only train LEO and MILITARY. MSG EDITED

PPGMD
December 28, 2007, 07:16 PM
Looks like an interesting tool for cases where your movement left to right is limited like in a car, but it's usefulness outside of that seems very limited.

STLRN
December 28, 2007, 08:44 PM
A friend of mine gave me an intro to the method after his SWAT team was trained in it.

It does allow for rapid close in shooting while, moving laterally to the target. Not sure if it is an end or be all, but it made sense while crossing danger areas like a door or hall way without stopping to cover the danger area. At least what I was shown didn't involve the use of a carbine, so I don't know if it pistol only.

vox rationis
December 29, 2007, 02:03 AM
Edit, i just realized they only train LEO and MILITARY.

There is civilian training based on the Center Axis Relock principles. Check this out:

http://www.ipdsystems.com/

JollyRoger
December 29, 2007, 09:52 PM
Looks like this guy is just shooting from the classic Weaver stance, only really close. What exactly is the innovation? I think I missed it.:confused:

fcs25
December 30, 2007, 01:28 PM
:D Looks like a good way to die in a real gun battle.

Double Naught Spy
December 30, 2007, 04:52 PM
I just don't get the CAR necessity of canting a gun (pistol, rifle, shotgun) in apparently every situation. For handguns, it just seems to be a cross between homeboy and a modified Weaver.

I got a kick out of the big guy in this video
http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/Speed_1.mpg
Dang if he ain't a great shooter at 3-10 feet. You can't accomplish shooting that good at that range with any other method!:rolleyes:

I also liked how his stance did not favor his access to his mag pouch such that he fumbled a bit in retrieving his reload and then double clutched his gun before being able to accomplish the reload. He retracts the gun to his chest and then points it up over the backstop at the sky as he attempts to retrieve a new mag. He hasn't dropped the old mag yet which isn't empty (gun not locked back), so he wants the partial mag ready for battle until he gets a new mag out. I get that. What I don't get is why he points his gun skyward and why to effect the mag change he must then sling out his gun from his body to eject the old mag and then bring it back again (double clutching). That seems to require moving the gun around about 2 additional feet it doesn't need to be moved. If this is such a great shooting method, it seems to require a lot of extra jerky movement and scanning places that don't require scanning. It did not appear to be a "threat from above" drill at all.

evan1293
January 3, 2008, 01:22 AM
I've undergone training in Center Axis Relock and IPD systems and have spent literally thousands of hours working with the CAR system with pistols, rifles and shotguns. Much of what is being said here is pretty typical to what I hear from folks who have not trained with this system. This isn't to slight anybody here, because believe me, I too had series doubts about CAR prior to training in it. Frankly it's quite radical and a bit different from what has become the norm or standard way of shooting today. Prior to my CAR training, I shot from a mod iso stance using the Leatham / Enos grip that has become so popular today in the world of IPSC and IDPA. I found fairly good success from this platform, enough to be able to easily achieve master level in IDPA, which may not be saying a whole lot.:) I came to relize that even though I was able to shoot at a decent level with mod iso, I felt and still believe its not the most effective fighting platform.

We know that most gunfights happen within 7 yards. Last I heard was that roughly 85-90% of gunfights happen within this distance with the huge majority of these being within 6'. There are many issues that arise from a fight that is this close to your personal zone. Weapon retention is a huge one. Time is another...a deadly threat this close needs to be stopped almost immediately. Ability to move with stabilty is another huge point of importance. The CAR system addresses all these areas where traditional platforms fail. CAR offers almost flawless weapon retention from the "high position" which is a position similar to that of SUL but with the barrel held parallel to the ground and parallel to the chest allowing for body-indexed firing. Even from the "extended position" where sighted fire is utilized, superb retention is still maintained. The canting of the weapon is effective to line up the sights with the eye opposite to that of the shooting hand (ie right hand firing, left eye aiming and visa verca.) Additionally and more importantly the cant (which is slight) utilizes the natural position of the wrist to absorb recoil. Just think about it...As you punch out with your fist, does the plam of your hand want to remain up and down as you extend as it would in an iso weaver stance or does it want to rotate towards the ground? If you just let your arms dangle down to your sides, do your wrists remain in a position similar to that of the weaver / iso shooting postion or are they canted somewhat like they would be in CAR? They will be canted, this is how your muslces/ bones are naturally aligned and this is what is utilized in CAR. I find that in CAR I don't have to fight to keep the gun on target. The gun recoils straight back into my hand and forearm and Im back on target much more quickly. Here's another point, in everyday life, if your are engaging in a task where you need to control something ( for instance...say you were holding an object in one hand and screwing in a screw into that object by using a screwdriver in another hand) do you extend the object and screw driver away from your body or do you bring it in close to your center? I think most of us would work at it right in front of our chest, close in. CAR allows for this with shooting. The gun(s) are shot, reloaded, manipulated, retained all in close. This aids in speed which is vital for a close in fight and aids in control which is important in an upclose encounter. Give a small child a candy bar and then try to take it back from them. They will almost always bury the candy bar into their chest to protect it and keep it from you. If I want to keep my gun away from an attacker trying to grab it from me and kill me with it Im going to keep it in that same position (CAR high) and shoot / attack with the elbows and pistol punches to survive.

The CAR system allows for stability while moving. I've played hockey for years and played some college hockey with some heavy contact. If I saw a hit coming I would drop my center of gravity and blade into my target. I could quickly evade with a lateral move or I could lunge forward and meet the hit with some force. CAR shoots from this same position. Its low, its fast for lateral movements which is almost always, if possible, the best way to get off the X in a fight. It presents less of a target to your enemy. If you move from iso your attacker is always seeing a full frontal target. Even if you move laterally, you still have to turn your upper half like a turret into your attacker giving him a full target. If you move from CAR in a fight your attacker sees about half of that target.

CAR offers huge, huge benifits in a vehicle or inside a house in narrow areas. CAR /IPD, contrary to what many have said is not exclusively a CQB system altough its great close in. From the extended postion the gun can be punched out further into a postion simliar to that of the classic weaver for those 25 yard shots. Take a class in it, its extreamly hard to learn on your own. Its very intuitive however there are some fine point to it that may be missed just from trying to learn it from videos. ;)

gvf
January 3, 2008, 03:57 AM
So, if I understand this, sighting would come from your non-dominant eye. And that isn't a problem?

evan1293
January 3, 2008, 04:07 AM
So, if I understand this, sighting would come from your non-dominant eye.

Yes and no. In CAR you use both your right and left hand to fire the gun. Of course if you are a right hander you will always favor using your right hand but you should practice with the system enough to become proficient with both hands.

While using the right hand you are using the left eye which may or may not be your dominant eye...it really doesn't matter. Done properly your nose will partially block out your right eye from picking up the sights and your left eye will align the sights on target. When firing from the left hand the right eye is used. If you are a R hander / R eye dominant (like me) you get the benefit of using your dom. eye when shooting with your left hand. This aids in strengthening the "non preffered side." If your are cross eye dom. then CAR works really well.

Night Trooper
January 6, 2008, 01:16 AM
Thanks for posting this, first time I've ever heard about it. Watched the videos posted and played around at the range (in a poor, self choreographed reproduction I might add) with it today.
Some interesting features and I can see some benefits. Can't get that non dominant eye sitghitng thing going though. Makes me curious to practice with someone whose taken a class. Sure I'd like to take a class but I don't think I could afford the ammo!!!
What strikes me, and this might answer some peoples gripes about predominant LE/military training, is that the CAR system is an aggressive system. Notice he is not seeking cover and calling 911. He's not pondering points of the castle doctrine. Not only is he not seeking immediate cover or "simply" holding his own ground, but he is actually advancing towards the threat(s). This is the job of LE/military. Responding to active killer situations and clearing houses, serving warrants require this mindset and training thus the big $$ in LE/military careers! As someone also previusly mentioned he may have enough business just teaching LE/military.
If "civilians" (per 2nd amendment aren't we all potentially militia?) desire this training/experience, more power to you and Kudos as well. I think anyone who lawfully owns weapons should have benefits of training/exposure to techniques.
I wonder that from the eyes of an instructor an issue could be liability. If a student who was CCW but had no "duty to protect" began searching and destroying using these techniques however rightful in intentions, how would that affect the student and system? Not a fun civil suit on that one..... "Was your life still in danger thereby necessitating use of lethat force as you approached my (pathetic) defendant who got what he deserved? Look at the bleeding hearts of family and friends, secondary victims who need compensation..."
Just a thought....

Captain38
January 7, 2008, 09:02 AM
It WOULD APPEAR of POTENTIAL value IF you ABSOLUTELY needed to get off several quit shots in the direction of a car-jacker when you're seated behind the wheel and he's right up against your door. OTHERWISE...don't even THINK about it!

Chui
January 7, 2008, 06:48 PM
Well, as a martial artist I think the shooting looks very interesting. Those who critique it I assume have never had to use their weapon in a "surgical speed shooting" environment. The canted pistol is actually easier to manage recoil - this I know because I OFTEN experiment shooting one handed (especially weak hand unsupported). Lowering the center of gravity is a natural thing when under stress (as is pulling one's limbs - arms - close to the body). Lateral movement is a dead necessity in any confrontation.

So I think it has some merit; another skill worth possessing. What one may do in a confrontation no one can say. But looking at the speed at which he was able to hit his target says to me, "this system of shooting deserves some introspection and further information." But that's just the way I approach things: you do something well, but in an unorthodox manner and I'll take the time to contemplate what it is you're doing and HOW you do it.

evan1293
January 7, 2008, 11:50 PM
IPDS is the civillian version of Center axis relock. There are absolutely no differences between the two systems of shooting, they are both the same. The courses are run a little differently only because of the fact that certain aspects of the military / law enforcement courses would not be applicaple to the civillian, for instance team assault drills and alike.

CAR is an aggressive shooting system. Many people get turned off by this and they dismiss the entire system because they think they'll get hung in court for using it. Look at it this way...we know that the type of encounters we're most likely to face as civillians are going to be generally up close. Muggings, carjackings, and home invasions are probably the most common types of scenarios. People don't get mugged at 10,15, and 25 yards. They get mugged or assaulted in their personal zones. Same goes for car jackings. In the home, most distances across rooms are generally no more than 10 yards, with most areas being much tighter than that. The stress of fighting up close is incredible. The time frame of these types of encounters are very short and often very violent. If someone chooses to attack me or my loved ones with deadly force, who says I have to go "shot for shot" with them. Im sure anyone one of us would want to end such and incident as soon as possible. In the home, every shot the bad guys is allowed to take is a shot that could sail past you and kill a family member, or could kill you. The CAR system allows for the victim to respond with 'violence of action' which is not a bad thing. Multiple body, head shots can be fired with great speed from a very strong fighting position in CAR. This allows the victim to end the fight quickly...the fight that he was forced into. CAR looks scary because frankly, it is....Its scary-fast and effective.

BigO01
January 8, 2008, 05:28 AM
Looks like something invented by some gangsta wannabe clown , tilting the weapon sideways .

No thanks I shoot fast and accurately enough with the gun oriented the correct way to make me happy , but hey feel free to mount sight on the side of your slide if it floats your boat .

evan1293
January 8, 2008, 06:03 AM
:rolleyes:

Chui
January 8, 2008, 08:14 PM
IPDS is the civillian version of Center axis relock. There are absolutely no differences between the two systems of shooting, they are both the same. The courses are run a little differently only because of the fact that certain aspects of the military / law enforcement courses would not be applicaple to the civillian, for instance team assault drills and alike.

CAR is an aggressive shooting system. Many people get turned off by this and they dismiss the entire system because they think they'll get hung in court for using it. Look at it this way...we know that the type of encounters we're most likely to face as civillians are going to be generally up close. Muggings, carjackings, and home invasions are probably the most common types of scenarios. People don't get mugged at 10,15, and 25 yards. They get mugged or assaulted in their personal zones. Same goes for car jackings. In the home, most distances across rooms are generally no more than 10 yards, with most areas being much tighter than that. The stress of fighting up close is incredible. The time frame of these types of encounters are very short and often very violent. If someone chooses to attack me or my loved ones with deadly force, who says I have to go "shot for shot" with them. Im sure anyone one of us would want to end such and incident as soon as possible. In the home, every shot the bad guys is allowed to take is a shot that could sail past you and kill a family member, or could kill you. The CAR system allows for the victim to respond with 'violence of action' which is not a bad thing. Multiple body, head shots can be fired with great speed from a very strong fighting position in CAR. This allows the victim to end the fight quickly...the fight that he was forced into. CAR looks scary because frankly, it is... Its scary-fast and effective.

Evan, I like the aggression. It's up to the individual to THINK about his/her circumstances and act accordingly. I find it much easier to ease up than to go forward.

There is a season for all things: slow aimed fire, "point" shooting, surgical speed shooting, running, etc. Those who do not see this remind me of the karate do guys some time ago pronouncing their system as being "the best" only to have their arses handed to them by non-martial artists. Same thing happened when UFC first came popular. Open your minds or get knocked out of same...

evan1293
January 8, 2008, 11:36 PM
There is a season for all things: slow aimed fire, "point" shooting, surgical speed shooting, running, etc. Those who do not see this remind me of the karate do guys some time ago pronouncing their system as being "the best" only to have their arses handed to them by non-martial artists. Same thing happened when UFC first came popular. Open your minds or get knocked out of same...
__________________


I agree fully. I think that its important to have as many tools in one's defensive toolbox as possible, and to train in the ability to utilize the best tool at the right time. No one system in fighting or shooting is the end all. As far as shooting goes, Im finding that it works well to have a default shooting platform or system; for me thats CAR. I'm able to effectively use CAR for most of what Im likely to face. If Im shooting out at 15 yards+ however, I may punch out to mod iso. Sometimes I shoot a mix between CAR / weaver at intermediate distances. This seems to work well in that it allows me to make use of the advantage that one platform would give me over another in a given situation. All of these systems / stances are a means to an end...the end being putting rounds on target as quickly and as accurately as possible. When I hear commments like, "fast enough" that makes me laugh. What exactly is fast enough? If my life was in danger fast enough would be as fast as humanly possible. If I consider myself to shoot "fast enough" or do anything good enough that is equivalent to saying I don't need to improve at all. And guess what, you won't. You'll never get any better than you are at that moment. I don't want to spend any of my precious time or hard earned money on an activity that I won't improve at. When it comes to this activity of defensive shooting, which may work to help save the lives of myself and loved ones, you bet I want to get as good as I possibly can.

BigO01
January 9, 2008, 01:01 AM
CAR looks scary because frankly, it is....Its scary-fast and effective.

OO yea Homey and yoo loo coo too doo n da 4 ta !!!

Funny , Jerry Miculek is scary fast and effect and he doesn't even dance around doing the hokey pokey ....

Ah little boys n their toys . LMAO

evan1293
January 9, 2008, 01:14 AM
Funny , Jerry Miculek is scary fast and effect and he doesn't even dance around doing the hokey pokey ....

Jerry is an awesome shooter without a doubt, but we're talking defensive shooting not competition. Nobody's trying to grab his weapon, stab him or kill him in an IPSC match.

Rob Leatham and Brian Enos are two of the best shooters that ever lived in the competition world. 20 + years ago they started shooting from an Iso stance with thumbs pointed forward at the target. Thumbs pointed forward???..... That sound funny. Well it doesn't today but back then it did because just about everyone was shooter from Col. Cooper's weaver. Today just about all top competition shooters are shooting what has come to be known as the "Leatham-Enos grip" from iso.

My point is that, development and improvement is not made by maintaining the status quo. The bar is raised by those who have gone against the norm and tried methods that seemed odd and unconventional. Here's a free piece of advice: Change your attitude and go out and LEARN ABOUT/ try CAR or any other method of shooting that may look silly to you. If you try something with an open mind, with the attitude of wanting to improve, then you'll be able to objectively determine if a given method will work for you or not.

JohnN
December 12, 2009, 11:27 AM
I've developed an interest in Central Axis Relock and wonder if there are any new developments. Like everything else when people start testing the system improvements are usually made. Unfortunately, like anything out of the mainstream people flock to criticize without actually taking the time to get any quality instruction. So it would be helpful if only folks who have had proper instruction comment as opposed to those who wish to make cheap and unknowing shots.

ClaysCustomGrips
December 12, 2009, 07:47 PM
Looks like I missed out, anybody have some updated links to the videos?

threadbare
December 13, 2009, 08:42 PM
I was introduced to Center Axis Relock at a training with Roger Phillips in East TX recentley. It was put out as a concept involving dynamic movement as well as being static at retention distance. It worked well for me from contact distance out to about 10 yards shearing off at diffent angles. Sighting was off the slide of the pistol close in and using body and visual index a bit farther out (point shooting). Everyone training there did well with it, except for a guy who couldn't get out of his MT mindset. Played around with it using airsoft pistols with a couple of training buddies and we were all able to get multiple hits on moving, shooting, resisting opponents. Just force on force but we wanted to see what we could do with it. All in all, for me I find it to be an effective technique that I might or might not need some day. Depends on the situation I guess.

Deaf Smith
December 13, 2009, 09:15 PM
even,

A few questions.

Is the CAR just one partcular technique and or is it a system for CQB?

From what I've seen of the videos there is no drawing, or weapons presentation, to lead into the CAR method. And since, as you said, most of the SD situations are inside 7 yards how does the CAR address this? That is how do you safely get into this bladed two handed hold safely and quickly?

Also, if the other hand is needed to block or ward off fist/knife/club, how does the CAR system address this?

And also when shooting, I noticed the targets were the kind you can easly spot hits (granted, most are.) Does the CAR method depend on spotting hits and adjusting the fire?

Thanks.

cubesmoothie
December 14, 2009, 12:38 PM
i'm wary of the way it might make yourself vulnerable to taking a shot in the side. It would line up your vitals which is not good. One bullet could go straight through several organs.

rburch
December 14, 2009, 02:26 PM
I may play with it a bit, seems a good option for in a car, or very close quarters.

I'm a bit nervous about:

Snagging the slide and causing malfunctions in an Semi Auto.

Hitting yourself in the face with the slide (In some of the pics, the people look like it would happen if they shot.

Shooting a revolver from the body indexed position (Looks like a good way to burn yourself)