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rampage841512
December 8, 2007, 07:24 AM
When I decided to to start carrying a gun for self defense I only considered the very, very basics. "If I've got a gun, I'll be better able to handle an armed criminal than if I don't have a gun." Then I started reading, and since I'm a voracious reader I read a lot and learned that there is a lot more to it.

Something that seemed to make sense to me was being able, if I had to, to put rounds on Target at long distance with whatever gun I used for CCW. Because of that I decided a little practice was in order. Practice led me to change the gun, first and foremost.

Anyway, who practices for long distance shots? What things have you learned? What works best (what gun, stance, cover, grip, etc.)?

And please, I'm not asking for anyone to tell me what I shouldn't do. I'm a grown man, and I know what I shouldn't do. I also know that what I shouldn't do becomes a moot point when it's my life on the line. This is thread dedicated to shooting at long distance when your own logic tells you that you have to. I don't care what you do when you don't feel you have to. It adds nothing to the discussion.

Dilligaf
December 8, 2007, 07:41 AM
While I am a firm believer that you should be familiar enough with your handgun to hit a target at any practical range, I am curious about why you are thinking about long range personal defense shooting.

What brought this to mind? What do you consider long distance? What situation can you envision where engaging a target at long distance is necessary? What makes you think that engaging a target at long distance is both a good idea and legally defensible?

Just curious.

rampage841512
December 8, 2007, 08:11 AM
What brought this to mind?

Criminals use rifles too.

What do you consider long distance?
Fifty yards and out, ballpark.

What situation can you envision where engaging a target at long distance is necessary?
One where a person with intent to kill (intent inferred by their observed actions) can see me and is holding a rifle.

What makes you think that engaging a target at long distance is both a good idea and legally defensible?


Is it not reasonable to believe that if you are holding a rifle you can hit Targets out to the rifles effective range? I would say yes, thus making a person with a rifle who is shooting other persons a clear, immediate threat to my life. It would be a good idea to remove a clear and immediate threat. However, the choice to do so is assumed. If you wouldn't, you have nothing to contribute to answering my original questions and are wasting my time.

Now I have some for you. What is practical? Does it change based on the person doing the shooting? Does it change based on the handgun used? And, finally, do you have anything to actually contribute to my original questions or do you just want to start an arguement so this thread ends up closed so I can't get any real answers because you were bored and thought it would be fun to give me a hard time?

DesertDawg
December 8, 2007, 08:14 AM
The 3 shootings that I was in while armed with a handgun all took place within 20'. While I often shoot handguns at longer than "normal" distances (up to 200 yards), it's not actually CCW practise shooting.

For whatever your reasons are, you might want to go through some warm-up shooting with a .22 handgun first, then go up to the center-fire pistol or revolver. Shooting a .22 handgun at 100 yards is "do-able", and with half-way decent accuracy.

By warming-up with a .22, you should be able to figure out what stance/grip is the best for you to use. It will also build up your self confidence, which is a necessity for accuracy. Oh, and it's a lot cheaper to shoot the .22 rounds first, then fire several "familiarization" center-fire rounds.

Several years ago, there was a drug-related homicide that I investigated. A buyer drove up in a VW bug and the dealer ran out to show him the "rocks" he had for sale. The buyer grabbed the rocks, then gunned his engine and popped the clutch to get away. The dealer ran to the fence where he had a 9mm pistol stashed, then back into the street where he took aim at the car speeding away. One round was fired, and....darned if it didn't go through the rear window and strike the buyer at the base of his neck! Distance from the shooter to the victim? 75 yards! It wasn't exactly an "accurate" shot, for the bullet did deflect slightly after piercing the window glass....but the angle of deflection turned out to be VERY slight! (This is still an unsolved homicide, by the way).

CelticMP
December 8, 2007, 08:16 AM
I believe a parameter needs to be established as to what a "long distance CCW" shot is. Are we talking the mythological 100yd factory open sight shot? or 30yds? At 10' people (even trained professionals) have been known to miss. So at what distance do you consider it to be "long distance"?

Spade Cooley
December 8, 2007, 08:18 AM
It is a good idea to know what your pistol will do at all ranges even though when using it as a defensive weapon it would be unlikely you would ever use it for that purpose. However, it could happen.

When I was a LEO, I saw a Police Officer shoot a robbery suspect with a 6" S & W 38 Special at a distance of what seemed to be about 60 Yds. The robbery suspect came out of the store with gun in hand. He was hit in the chest and went down, died with a big smile on his face. It was a one shot kill.

It wouldn't hurt to know exactly what your side arm does out to 50 Yds. But I doubt you would ever need to use it at that range. It might be wiser to hide than engage. When it comes to shootings, most people get so excited they miss at seven yards.

rampage841512
December 8, 2007, 08:38 AM
As to my reply the post following my OP, I wanted to say if your questions were just honest curiosity, I apologize. I'm just tired of every time a thread gets started around here a lot of members want to start a ******* contest over who can spout the best rhetoric.

I think my reply to the questions raised answers a lot of the others, however I will clarify in saying that by "ccw," I meant the handgun you use for this, not the concept itself.

rampage841512
December 8, 2007, 08:41 AM
It wouldn't hurt to know exactly what your side arm does out to 50 Yds. But I doubt you would ever need to use it at that range. It might be wiser to hide than engage. When it comes to shootings, most people get so excited they miss at seven yards.

I agree, but I also want to point out that this thread isn't aimed at answering whether you should or not, but assumes you are in a situation where you feel you should. Like I said above, I'm interested in the 'how' not the 'why.'

GalilARM
December 8, 2007, 08:49 AM
I agree that it is smart to know the capabilities of your handgun at longer ranges, but it would probably be smarter to try and get away rather than engage a suspect at the distances we are talking. This most recent Omaha mall thing comes to mind...say youre in the mall, opposite end of the food court or concourse from some emo dweeb who opens up with a battle rifle. You may be alone. Your family may be by your side. Or they might be in a different area. There are tons of factors that would dictate when or why I would take a long distance CCW shot. Landing a hit at those ranges would be tough, especially with the type of guns most people carry concealed. However, a shooter might not be expecting return fire, and it may be enough to deter him long enough to get yourself or your loved ones to safety. Now we all know that "cover fire" while CCWing isnt good, but again, in some situation like this Omaha shooting, putting some rounds in the vicinity of the bad guy may impede his spree so that you can get away.


I've made hits on a plate (somewhat consistently) at 100 yards with the USP, but in a real-life situation, you dont have time to line up each shot perfectly and all the other stuff. Theres nothing wrong with knowing what your gun can do though.

Dilligaf
December 8, 2007, 09:00 AM
Is it not reasonable to believe that if you are holding a rifle you can hit Targets out to the rifles effective range? I would say yes, thus making a person with a rifle who is shooting other persons a clear, immediate threat to my life. It would be a good idea to remove a clear and immediate threat. However, the choice to do so is assumed. If you wouldn't, you have nothing to contribute to answering my original questions and are wasting my time.

But we are not talking about rifles, we are obviously talking about handguns. We are also, I would be willing to bet, talking about the Mall again.

Now I have some for you. What is practical? Does it change based on the person doing the shooting? Does it change based on the handgun used? And, finally, do you have anything to actually contribute to my original questions or do you just want to start an arguement so this thread ends up closed so I can't get any real answers because you were bored and thought it would be fun to give me a hard time?

What is Practical? Depends on the shooter, the weapon, the conditions, the situation (and events leading to the shooting.)

Since you haven't outlined any of the above, it is hard to contribute anything meaningful.

But, since you are actually considering exchanging shots with rifleman using a pistol at distances in excess of 50 yards, I would say that practical considerations aside, you should fire a few rounds to make him duck and then you should run like hell for some real cover.

See, the only way to reliably hit the rifleman at 50 yards would be to take a slow, controlled shot, watch for impact and then adjust your aim. If you take all that time and the rifleman is even semi competent, you are dead.

Back to the original premise, I used to practice to 100yds with my 1911. I had to hold about 3ft of inclination and do some Kentucky windage to hit the steel plates, but after the first couple of shots, I could hit it about 5 out of 7 shots from each mag.

rampage841512
December 8, 2007, 09:36 AM
But we are not talking about rifles, we are obviously talking about handguns

You with handgun, bad guy with rifle. How can you not see that from my posts?

And no, it isn't about the mall shooting. That was only a single incident where criminals have used rifles. I was thinking in general. And I'm not even asking about actual situations, or what you would do then, as I've pointed out time and again. I'm asking about the "how" of doing it so I can refine my own practice. If you want to know my opinions about the mall shooting, you can look at my post in BillCA's thread concerning it.

This isn't a run or shoot thread, it's a how do practice to be able to shoot thread.

GalilARM
December 8, 2007, 09:42 AM
Its going to take a lot of practice to learn to place accurate, long range shots on a target under the stress of combat, if thats what youre askin

Dwight55
December 8, 2007, 10:58 AM
The first thing to think about when considering a long distance shot, . . . will the weapon do it?

For example, a .380 like a Bersa Thunder, is not something you want to engage anything else with much beyond 75 feet, . . . nor is a Keltec .32, a Colt .25, etc, etc.

If you are using a .357, .44 mag, .45 long colt, or some of the new boomer calibers, . . . 50 yd and beyond are doable under certain circumstances. So your first choice is the weapon, . . . make sure you have one which will do the job. They will all go that far, . . . but hitting what you want, where you want, . . . you have to be picky on the weapon.

Secondly, . . . the ammo choice, . . . a .357 loaded with a 125 gr JHP (hand loads approaching max charge) will give you a very flat shooting cartridge, that I have shot at 200 yds and was very satisfied with the performance. You will need a high velocity, flat shooting, lighter weight bullet to do real well, . . . and if I may, . . . let me opine that you will not find those on the shelf at Wally World, . . . you need to become a reloader if you want to be consistant at it.

Thirdly, . . . get yourself a scope for your handgun, . . . (or possibly a laser sight, . . . I cannot recommend them, never had one). You will learn first to shoot longer distances with it, . . . it will help with your trigger pull, breathing, etc. then graduate down to open sights. The reason is you can "see" when you are wiggling through a scope, . . . but will likely blame the wind and ammo if you start out trying with iron sights.

Last, . . . when you first start out, . . . let your shooting time be very slow. Shoot only one round at a time, . . . don't even load a second one. You may be out there 3 hours shooting up the first 50 rounds. Take your time, be very deliberate, try to remember each shot up through the first 15 or so.

It is a lot of fun, . . . I did a lot of that type shooting when I was younger, . . . have a good time.

May God bless,
Dwight

FM12
December 8, 2007, 11:05 AM
Do 15-30 seconds of jogging in place to get your heart rate up...rest 30 seconds and practice while your heart is pumping pretty good...kinda simulates the condition your heart will be in if you engage a shooter...you might be calmer, but maybe not...the rush will definately be a factor, especially if you actually fire a round, and even moreso if you take incomeing fire.

Good post, BTW. And I agree, no reason for anyone to jump and start "flaming". I'm always amazed at those who carry but don't intend to do anything if presented with danger. But, I also applaud your intentions to determine your capabilities before hand.

ALSO...be prepared to "surrender" to the good guys when they show up, Don't let your excitement get yourself shot !:cool:

Proper prior preparation prevents poor performance.

FM12

pax
December 8, 2007, 12:19 PM
<moderator hat on>

Guys, the OP has made it very clear that he is asking how to make a distant shot rather than wanting to debate why or whether one might need to do so. I think that's a legitimate request, and would like to see it honored. Thanks.

</moderator hat off>

****

rampage ~

The basic rule for shooting at distance is, "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." For defense, we should add, "If you can get behind better cover, do so."

Be willing & prepared to brace against any solid object you can, or to drop down and go prone if you've got a decent place to do so safely.

A slow hit is much better than wasting ammunition on a fast miss, if circumstances allow and you know you can focus intensely on doing what you need to do. If you can't, it is not usually a good idea to waste your ammunition and endanger innocents by shooting to miss. Obviously circumstances alter cases -- I'm thinking Charlie Whitman was kept from killing others by a whole bunch of people firing his direction, who were unable to hit him at the distances from which they were shooting. That was a good choice for them to make in the circumstances because Whitman was obviously going to keep firing if they had not engaged him, and because there were no innocents behind him in the tower. But that would be very, very situation-dependent.

As for gun choice, it's been my observation that the choice of firearm is one limitation on distance, but it's not the primary one. The primary distance limitation is the shooter's own ability and mindset. If you don't believe you can make a distance shot with your primary carry gun, or if you've never tried it, or if your trigger control is shaky at the best of times, you're simply not going to manage a long shot when you need to. Always focus on the basics, especially trigger control.

pax

Tim Burke
December 8, 2007, 03:42 PM
The way to make a long distance shot is to align the sights, and press the trigger without disturbing them... just like every other shot.
You need to practice this, because knowing you can do it is half the battle. You also need to know where to hold for your gun. My carry 1911 hits about 2 inches low at 50 yards. I routinely shoot steel at 70 yards, most of the time at a 14 inch steel gong, but also at a variety of smaller targets, the smallest of which is a 4 inch plate. I expect to hit the gong, I occasionally hit the plate.
If you have trigger control issues, it will be very hard to hit anything at that distance.
It's hard to do really fast, and it's easier if you are braced.

Archie
December 8, 2007, 04:01 PM
I'm from the older crowd and I'm convinced one can shoot farther than sixteen feet.

There are several considerations. As alluded to by FM12, good physical condition is an aide. Being out of breath or having one's heart pounding - from any cause - is not condusive to good marksmanship. Get in some excercise, jogging or something that builds cardio-vascular strength. (Which may help explain my recent decline in shooting accuracy...)

Get familiar with your firearm and ammunition. Practise, in other words. Also previously mentioned by Dwight55, work on basic marksmanship skills. Nasty, boring old bullseye shooting. Whatever handgun and ammo you use, work with it until you have a good idea of the holdover at fifty or one hundred or two hundred or whatever ranges you can use and figure you need to try.

In the heat of conflict, you will tend to accelerate and not pay as much attention to detail as perhaps you should. However, if you become a proficient and practised marksman, that habit will serve in any circumstance. Maybe not as well as on a casual and unhurried range, but much better than no discipline at all.

I hear the sentiment expressed often that bullseye or target range shooting skills rapidly decline when in a 'life or death' situation. That is true. On the other hand, an untrained or semi-trained shooter never improves when in mortal danger.

Wildalaska
December 8, 2007, 04:28 PM
Ive shot my Seecamp at 100 yards........

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahah....I hope the criminal at that distance is the size of a 20 foot berm:D

Wildyoushouldseemynagantat100Alaska ™

bushidomosquito
December 8, 2007, 04:39 PM
Jogging is good for getting the heart rate up but boxing is better. I like to box for the adrenilin rush but never thought to use that rush for defensive pistol training because I don't carry. Makes me wonder though, if I did carry and wanted to duplicate stressful conditions for training, I can't think of a better way than to go to to the range with a buddy that can hold his own against you and duke it out with the gloves and headgear for half an hour. Seems silly, I know but nothing starts up the internal defenses like getting your butt kicked. 'Cept maybe being shot at. I don't think anyone's that hard core about their training.

Perldog007
December 8, 2007, 05:28 PM
My younger brother lives in Vegas and he and his compadres have been known to go to undisclosed locations in the desert and shoot hubcaps at 100 yards with snubbies.

From what I observed, stance and grip varies by shooter. None of them could pull off that shot with a 2" .38 more than half the time. I didn't exactly keep a log, but would say that one of three success was more likely.

I agree that one should practice for distance. My problem is finding a place where I can go past 25 yards. If L.A. officers practiced at range that North Hollywood fiasco may not have gone on so long.

As an armed citizen I believe that if one is far away enough to snipe, there may be other options (leave, hide, evade) but then again there may not.

I used to shoot long range with my mkII all the time as a younger man living out in the country. It was a game of knowing how much front sight to hold up at what range and wind is another animal altogether.

Have to agree with the advice to get a .22 and try that first.

Besides if you can score hits at 50 yds plus with your ccw the confidence has to go up. That alone can stop a fight before it happens.

Manedwolf
December 8, 2007, 06:00 PM
The basic rule for shooting at distance is, "If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get steadier, get steadier." For defense, we should add, "If you can get behind better cover, do so."

Be willing & prepared to brace against any solid object you can, or to drop down and go prone if you've got a decent place to do so safely.

That's always been my perception. Hard cover is good, hard cover that you can sight through with some concealment is better, all of the above and that you can lean on with arms braced, better than that.

In other words, to me, ideal would be something like a giant planter, full of sand, between you and the bad guy. It'd have foliage for some concealment that you could perhaps sight through, and would let you brace your arms against the edge for a lined-up steady shot and followups.

OldTXCop
December 8, 2007, 06:28 PM
Here's one drill we used to do when I was an LEO. If you can try this or a variant safely, it will show you how hard it is to shoot accurately when under any stress.

We would run in place (knees high) for about 30-45 seconds. Our weapons on the bench at the firing line station. When the instructor would give us a go, we would stop running and have 3-5 seconds to pick up our weapons and fire a double tap at the target. We would also do variants like having to load your empty weapon and then fire, etc...

obxned
December 8, 2007, 06:32 PM
Handguns are useable at much longer ranges than most would believe. The slowest bullets when dead on at 20-25 yards will hit very close to that same point at 50, and a chin hold at 100 yards will get a high COM hit.

AdamSean
December 8, 2007, 07:12 PM
To be honest I have never put much thought into shooting any farther than 25 yards. I can put rounds on the page at 25 yards easily with my Kahr PM9, but would probably use a 5 inch barrel like a Beratta 92 or a CZ 75 for anything farther. I would also try shooting prone to increase stability. Something I may try next time out.

jrothWA
December 8, 2007, 11:37 PM
if you are carrying a 3" or 4" sidearm, with adjustable sights, you should have a
POA/POI set for 50 yds. Anything closer will impact above the POA.
I use the Weaver stance, for sighting in.
For longer distance, you'll need to use support.
Carrying a snub-nose or smaller caliber best stick with 15yd.


You should try metallic silhouette shooting, its very interesting and mind opening for the ability of a sidearm.

Also try a bowling pin shoot, here is the ideal combination of timed fire, with GOOD sight alignment and trigger squeeze. The pin reaction tells you when you have a good center of mass hit, by going straight away from you or spins around indicating an off-side hit.

kgpcr
December 9, 2007, 01:11 AM
I enjoy shooting at 100yrds from time to time. I cant hit much at that range but it is fun to do! Helps me get a feeling for what i can and cannot do with a handgun.

Hook686
December 9, 2007, 05:40 AM
My handgun of choice is a revolver, either a S&W .357 magnum, or .44 magnum. I practice at 10 & 25 yard targets, stationary; and, out to 30 yards in a once a month tactical type scenario my gun club puts on.

From my view this is really the most distance I think I'd encounter, as at that distance I'd be prone to 'Exit stage right', as fast as I could, or hunkered down in a solid defensive posture.

What I have found, is the longer range (25 yard) shooting has really benefited my 10 yard shooting also. So I continue that practice.

rezmedic54
December 9, 2007, 07:00 AM
A few other Instructors I have talked to have stated that long distance practice with a pistol might not be a bad thing as you never know when things might turn to PooPoo and all you have is your pistol.
On another note I have a friend that does practice at long range with his snub nose and can regularly breaks balloons at 200 yds with very few if ever misses. But what do I know.

Spade Cooley
December 9, 2007, 09:08 AM
I shoot black powder competition with a bunch of old coots. One of our matches is with B/P pistols where we shoot off hand at 25 and 50 yards. You wold be surprised how you can still hit black at fifty yards. It never hurts to know what you can do with your pistol.

FM12
December 9, 2007, 11:16 AM
Rampage: I think there are some steel silhouette clubs or at least ranges around B'ham...try your hand with them...but, be warned...it's VERY addictive.:D

rampage841512
December 9, 2007, 01:05 PM
Here's one drill we used to do when I was an LEO. If you can try this or a variant safely, it will show you how hard it is to shoot accurately when under any stress.

We would run in place (knees high) for about 30-45 seconds. Our weapons on the bench at the firing line station. When the instructor would give us a go, we would stop running and have 3-5 seconds to pick up our weapons and fire a double tap at the target. We would also do variants like having to load your empty weapon and then fire, etc...

I've actually done this one. I find it works very well, and it take a lot of practice to be able to quickly get on target and fire a shot, let alone hit your target.

monkeyboy
December 10, 2007, 08:24 AM
I just do it the normal way, Glock 17, thumbs forward grip.

A man size steel target at 100 yards gets hit 70% of the time with very little practice.

Double Naught Spy
December 10, 2007, 08:49 AM
What makes you think that engaging a target at long distance is both a good idea and legally defensible?

What would make you suggest that engaging a target at 100 yards isn't legally defensible? Charles Whitman took out people at 600 yards. Are you suggesting it would not be legally defensible to be within that 600 yards and return fire?

I don't know of a single law that stipuates or limits distance in the application of lethal force in a self defense situation. The same rules apply at contact as they do at 100 or 1000 yards.

Handguns are useable at much longer ranges than most would believe. The slowest bullets when dead on at 20-25 yards will hit very close to that same point at 50, and a chin hold at 100 yards will get a high COM hit.

Do not follow this advice without actually verifying the data for your particular gun, caliber, and ammo. It is presented here as a universal or near universal when it most definitely is not. All sorts of issues influence this including site radius above the bore, sight radius (influences ease of exactness), ballistic coeffficent, velocity, drop, levelness of the barret at firing, altitude, etc.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
December 10, 2007, 09:30 AM
I practice regularly at 100yds with my 9mm---I can keep most shots in a 10-12in circle.

While I can't guarantee a hit--I will be able to keep their heads down while I get out of there--or wait for help.

Manedwolf
December 10, 2007, 09:39 AM
Also try a bowling pin shoot, here is the ideal combination of timed fire, with GOOD sight alignment and trigger squeeze. The pin reaction tells you when you have a good center of mass hit, by going straight away from you or spins around indicating an off-side hit.

The last time I shot at at bowling pin, or several, really, was with a full-auto 30-06 BAR. They danced all over the place, and one came apart. What does that tell you? :D

DMK
December 10, 2007, 10:24 AM
For whatever your reasons are, you might want to go through some warm-up shooting with a .22 handgun first, then go up to the center-fire pistol or revolver. Shooting a .22 handgun at 100 yards is "do-able", and with half-way decent accuracy.

By warming-up with a .22, you should be able to figure out what stance/grip is the best for you to use. It will also build up your self confidence, which is a necessity for accuracy. Oh, and it's a lot cheaper to shoot the .22 rounds first, then fire several "familiarization" center-fire rounds.I really like this idea. First practice and find out what you are capable of. Spend a lot of time on this before moving on to bigger calibers. This is something that you will need to make a big investment in training.

Once you are comfortable just shooting and hitting at long ranges, you'll need to practice with your CCW with your carry ammo. You need to know where your carry gun and your carry ammo will hit. Don't just shoot at one distance. That won't be very helpful. Practice at 50 yards, practice at 100 yards, practice at 150 yards if you can do it. Know where the drop will be at these ranges and in between. If you can, have a friend put a target out in a field at an unknown distance while you look away. Turn around, pick up your gun and see if you can hit it with only three rounds(range estimation practice).

There is a lot of ballistic forgiveness at 15 yards. At 75 yards, there may be a big difference between where your carry ammo prints and where your practice ammo prints.

Ammunition selection may be something you want to pay attention to. You may even want to change your carry ammo, or(trying to think outside the box) you may want to carry an extra mag with dedicated long range ammo.

The woodsman has to consider the long range shot. An accurate 1911 .45 can deliver the goods here; the secret is to know how much that slow, heavy bullet drops as the range extends. As one observer put it, “The standard 230-grain .45 slug has the trajectory of a basketball.” Save yourself some computation and do what I do. In the woods as opposed to on the street, I load my .45 auto with Remington’s deliciously accurate 185-grain +P .45 jacketed hollow point. I discovered long ago that if my .45 was sighted in spot on at 25 yards with standard 230-grain ammo, it(I assume he means the 185gr here - DMK) would put the shot where the sights were at 75 to 100 yards. The 1140 foot-second muzzle velocity of that 185-grain Remington .45 +P really flattens the trajectory.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html

ragwd
December 10, 2007, 11:17 AM
At the range I haunt, we have bowling pins at 7yds., paper targets at 25yds. and 50yds. Depending on what I am there to practice, my routine varies but mostly I do a few bowling pins before I go to 25yds. Do the majority of my shots there. On occasion I shoot at the 50yds. Target standard size and I have a heck of a time. I can stay on paper but have no pattern whatsoever. I use 1 inch hold over. Wind is never a issue at the range. I can expect to hit the paper but I never know exactly where. I don't alter the isosceles triangle stance that I use at 25yds. So I will watch this thread for some tips also. Shooting at distance is stretching the ccw scenario, but no more than a lot of "what if" threads I see here. There would have to be a clear shot picture with no friendly's, cause I sure couldn't count on me hitting with precision.

Denny Hansen
December 10, 2007, 04:06 PM
Shooting at distance is stretching the ccw scenario, but no more than a lot of "what if" threads I see here.

Not necessarily. In two of the mall shootings that occurred this year the wackos used long guns. The flip side to “bringing a knife to a gun fight” is “bringing a pistol to a rifle fight." A lot of my defensive practice is at 25 to 40 yards. YMMV

Denny

DMK
December 10, 2007, 04:40 PM
I don't alter the isosceles triangle stance that I use at 25yds.I don't know. I prefer a Weaver stance for precision shots. The Isosceles is intended to allow you to shift rapidly from one target to the next. You won't likely be shifting all that much or so quickly at long ranges.

hecate
December 10, 2007, 05:29 PM
At the risk of sounding callous, I offer Joe's Crabby Shack's "Von Maur Drill:"

http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/2007/12/modest-proposal-von-maur-drill.html

It's based on a first-hand account of what happened at Westroads Mall in Omaha:

http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/2007/12/firsthand-account-of-von-maur-shooting.html

Adding the anaerobic pre-workout would add realism.

johnle
December 17, 2007, 04:26 AM
frankly if he has a rifle, you better find cover and quit trying to hit him at distance.

his sights are perfectly set up for the distance, his POA and POI are the same, he will not have to compensate and he has much more penetration through barriers then you. At 100 yards, your bullet is much much weaker then his.

find cover and hope to get the ambush on him to drop him.

TexasSeaRay
December 17, 2007, 04:52 AM
I'm asking about the "how" of doing it so I can refine my own practice.

How did you learn to shoot at 25 meters--assuming you do?

You started at seven to ten meters, then moved it out to fifteen to seventeen, then moved it out again.

In spite of what one poster stated, ballistics DO change in handgun rounds the further out you go. Heavier, larger bullet that is traveling much slower. Something else to consider.

Best and fastest way to hone up your distance shooting (in my experience) is to shoot falling targets. You get instant feedback on whether or not your technique, aimpoints and distance/elevation adjustments are working. I think it helps you develop your "eye" a little faster.

Another thing to consider is wheel gun versus semi. I'd be considerably more prone to taking a longer shot with any one of my wheel guns. With my semi's, I'd have to really, really be in one helluva bad pickle.

Jeff

BillCA
December 17, 2007, 06:53 AM
One thing you can do is visit the website of your carry ammo manufacturer. Most of them will have a ballistics table that will show you the bullet drop at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Once you know that, slow practice at the range to verify the results and/or modify your knowledge.

In my view, if you decide to take the shot, the two more important things you'll need, besides the capability (weapon/ammo) are (1)Focus and (2)steadiness.

The focus puts out of your mind everything but making the shot right. Steadiness means steadying down to control your breathing and nervousness. Focus will help your breathing and controlling your breathing will help your focus.

To me, "long range" with a CCW gun is going to be anything beyond about 35 yards. That's still plenty close for a rifle shooter to get lucky.

As to why... it is entirely foreseeable that in some incident you will take cover (hopefully real cover) because you can see the shooter or he comes into view, then find that your retreat options boil down to slim & none.

In such a situation, it may be best to keep a low profile whilst preparing yourself for a shot. He might walk away, but he might not. As said before, the best would be a planter for cover and a small bush to shoot through.