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SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 01:52 PM
Just reading through a thread in another part of the forum made me wonder: Are people really afraid of coyotes, or are they just looking for quick justification to have something alive to shoot at? Certain things that were said really touched a nerve in me, and it made me realize that it's no wonder that a lot of non-gun people think we're all a bunch of rednecks he-hawing at the thought of blasting away a creature just because we can.

Granted, yes, if one is actually brave enough to attack(which is extremely rare for kids, and almost nonexistant for adults), then by all means dispatch it. I will always carry when camping, but more for actually DANGEROUS animals (usually bipedal... or snakes) than skittish 40 pound dogs. Even then I wouldn't blast a snake unless it already bit me, or is getting ready to at my next move.

Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, but am I the only one that sees this?

ronc0011
December 2, 2007, 02:14 PM
I would think most people shoot coyotes for the same reason that people kill rats. If their population isn’t controlled they will begin to create big problems. Also when you live in a rural environment the daily necessities of life such as control of predatory animals become common place, they are not viewed with all the attendant hand wringing that they are with city dwellers. My uncle raises exotic game animals ( he used to raise cattle) and if a stray dog is seen on the place he is immediately dealt with, with the trusty old 410 or 22. No body in these areas have animals that they let wander around loose because they will get shot if they turn up on any neighbors property. These kinds of animals are very destructive.

Silvanus
December 2, 2007, 02:19 PM
I think there are probably some people who only shoot them to kill something. They probably wouldn't admit it, though.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 02:21 PM
But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deaths. Cougars eat coyotes. Coyotes and cougars both eat deer. They're pretty close to their natural numbers and they aren't creating these mythical 'big problems' i always hear about. You want to know a big problem? Killing off the wolf population, now the deer population goes out of control. THAT's a big problem. I understand if you own livestock that are being attacked, by all means, defend your livestock, but otherwise I don't buy it. Nope i can just see a couple guys hiking some trails, seeing a couple coyotes a little bit away and saying with a grin "hey bubba, betcha can't hit him from here!"

Bigfatts
December 2, 2007, 02:45 PM
But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deaths. Cougars eat coyotes. Coyotes and cougars both eat deer. They're pretty close to their natural numbers and they aren't creating these mythical 'big problems' i always hear about.

If you really believe that, I'm sorry. They are not well controlled, or at all in many cases. In many places they are fed by people who think "Look at the pretty puppy!" Then they lose their fear of man and get brave, and aggressive. There was a case a little while ago of a little girl getting chomped by a Coyote here. They populate far faster than Cougars and cars can kill them. In some places there are no natural predators. And even where there are, Coyote isn't likely to be on the menu regularly. Especially since Coyotes are often found in multiples. I think Florida has something like 40 panthers left in the wild, and they have plenty of deer to eat without having the risk of being bitten back. Also there really isn't a good way to determine their exact numbers. Most people confuse them with dogs and don't really take any notice. I've seen them walking down the street in my subdivision in the middle of the afternoon. They kill livestock for the sheer pleasure of killing it, don't always even eat it. (A goat farm up the street from me lost more than 10 goats one night when a Coyote got in the pen. Know how many it ate? None.)

Give animal control a call sometime and tell them you've got a very brave Coyote coming in close to your house and acting aggressively when you walk your dogs. Tell them it gets in your garbage cans regularly. I did, you know what they said? "Is it rabid?" "No." "Oh sorry, we don't deal with Coyotes." One morning I took my wife's Dachsund out in the front yard (on a leash thank the lord) and there stands Mr Coyote at the end of the driveway lookin' at me as he licks my garbage off his lips. I wave my hands and stomp and talk threateningly, he bares his teeth and growls. He went back to my garbage when I picked up the Dachsund and went inside. One Velocitor to the forehead later, another heavier garbage bag.

Oh and I usually don't agree with predator hunting. I don't have anything against people who do, I simply am not into trophies as much as I am a full freezer.

zoomie
December 2, 2007, 02:48 PM
Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 02:56 PM
One morning I took my wife's Dachsund out in the front yard (on a leash thank the lord) and there stands Mr Coyote at the end of the driveway lookin' at me as he licks my garbage off his lips. I wave my hands and stomp and talk threateningly, he bares his teeth and growls. He went back to my garbage when I picked up the Dachsund and went inside. One Velocitor to the forehead later, another heavier garbage bag.

That's a good reason to kill it. It's agressive and not responding to human aggression, then it IS dangerous and I would shoot it just as quickly as anyone else. As with the cattle farms, again i say, to defend your livestock is fine. Maybe we should shoot the people stupid enough to FEED the wild predators, eh? I KNOW there are the people that go out for coyotes that hunt them for the sake of the hunt/kill.

Anyway, if wild coyotes are apparently such a big problem, why then aren't we shooting domestic dogs a lot more? They are responsible for a lot more attacks and deaths (on human ADULTS nonetheless) than coyotes and cougars combined.

Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.

OH hooo, So because i'm unfortunatley stuck in this hell hole state (where its snowing right now goddamn it) I'm automatically a high-horse riding, northeastern blissninny liberal who things than animals lives are worth more than human ones? Well then, you couldn't be more wrong, but if we're going to start stereotyping, i'll just call you a southern bumpkin texan redneck, dumb as the day is long. How's that?

BTW, I'm planning on moving down to Tuscon anyway, cause i prefer the SW much more compared to the NE, so no offense meant. While i'm down there, I'm planning on doing a lot of camping, hiking, and yes, hunting... rabbits. Im not shaking in my boots aobut coyotes OR cougars, I'm more worried about illegals than anything!

animal
December 2, 2007, 03:20 PM
Coyotes have no natural enemies in MS. The breed like rats and will mix with feral dogs.
When they move into an area The quail and rabbits disappear, the turkeys get really scarce and the deer also suffer. Several years back, the area that I hunt had an influx of these creatures. No one paid any attention to them at first and left them alone. Within 2 years, the quail were nowhere to be found, you were lucky to bag 1 rabbit every other hunt, and the turkey hunters were crying.
:rolleyes:
We, the billy-bob yahoo rednecks, spent about a year and a half on a campaign of coyote/feral dog death. Several times that I know of, hunters passed up shots on deer and turkey in order to kill one of these pests. Most of the hunting clubs in 4 counties were involved. Now you see one every once in a while (as it should be). Singles are generally left alone but if a pack is spotted, it is thinned.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 03:23 PM
I'm sorry to hear that thay have been a problem in your state, animal (they are becoming a problem here too), but think of it this way: WHY do they have no natural enemies and WHY are they a problem in the first place?

Bigfatts
December 2, 2007, 03:28 PM
Anyway, if wild coyotes are apparently such a big problem, why then aren't we shooting domestic dogs a lot more? They are responsible for a lot more attacks and deaths (on human ADULTS nonetheless) than coyotes and cougars combined.

This is true. But then again many incidents involving Coyotes are wrongly reported as involving a dog. Again, many people can't really tell the difference. Unless it looks like that Wolf they saw on Animal Planet, it's a dog. Also, Coyote populations vary from area to area. From the sounds of it, they aren't a big problem in your area. Here, they are. Were they on their own in a natural setting in the wild they would be fine. But they aren't. They are moving into our subdivisions, they are eating our pets, they are out of control. That was my basic point. Here, basically the only control they get is from hunting. It is not killing for the sake of killing by and large, it is neccessity. In your area maybe the Animal Control and such are doing a better job of it.

I KNOW there are the people that go out for coyotes that hunt them for the sake of the hunt/kill.

This is true. To some, the thrill of the hunt is all that is important. Pitting themselves against nature and winning. Then there are the really unfortunate cases where people hunt because they get literal pleasure from ending another being's life. I don't follow those lines of thinking.

Bigfatts
December 2, 2007, 03:38 PM
WHY do they have no natural enemies and WHY are they a problem in the first place?

Because alot of our recent ancestors supported themselves with the livestock they raised and competed with natural predators for needed table meat. And any threat to that meager living was exterminated, sometimes to the extreme, in the case of the Wolf and Cougar. I remember my Grandpa telling me of his father's monthly Panther hunts. There was no thought to the future, there was only what you had to do to survive. Now we're left to care for the hold overs. We also have to thin the herds in the case of a few animals because the scales have been unbalanced.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 03:41 PM
This is true. But then again many incidents involving Coyotes are wrongly reported as involving a dog. Again, many people can't really tell the difference. Unless it looks like that Wolf they saw on Animal Planet, it's a dog. Also, Coyote populations vary from area to area. From the sounds of it, they aren't a big problem in your area. Here, they are. Were they on their own in a natural setting in the wild they would be fine. But they aren't. They are moving into our subdivisions, they are eating our pets, they are out of control. That was my basic point. Here, basically the only control they get is from hunting. It is not killing for the sake of killing by and large, it is neccessity. In your area maybe the Animal Control and such are doing a better job of it.

I'll give you that; the fact that some people are confusing coyotes with dogs. Theres still a lot of domestic dog attacks, and a lot of dogs are a lot bigger. The coyotes are becoming a problem in MA and some people want to extend the season on them (which then wails of protest come from animal protectionists, which i am NOT). The reason behind the coyote population explosion is because the gray wolf population has been hunted to near extinction. Another thing i want to point out with your argument is that it's not only that they're moving into our neighborhoods, but vice versa. The suburban sprawl is a big part of this problem.


This is true. To some, the thrill of the hunt is all that is important. Pitting themselves against nature and winning. Then there are the really unfortunate cases where people hunt because they get literal pleasure from ending another being's death. I don't follow those lines of thinking.

That's what i was going after. I think theres a lot more of those people than we care to admit. IT looks to me like coyote hunting is more akin to shooting fish in a barrel (even here), so i don't see much sport in it, honestly. I think its time we start thinking ahead in terms of wildlife management instead of the old though process of "move where ya want and kill anything that gets in the way". That's the reason the wolf population is nonexistant here, and why the coyotes have taken over. Even then there's still a heckova lot of deer to go around, to where it's becoming problematic. If we manage to kill off the coyotoes..somehow... then we'll just introduce new problems.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 03:45 PM
Because alot of our recent ancestors supported themselves with the livestock they raised and competed with natural predators for needed table meat. And any threat to that meager living was exterminated, sometimes to the extreme, in the case of the Wolf and Cougar. I remember my Grandpa telling me of his father's monthly Panther hunts. There was no thought to the future, there was only what you had to do to survive. Now we're left to care for the hold overs. We also have to thin the herds in the case of a few animals because the scales have been unbalanced.

Precisely. We can't change the past, but because we're not supporting ourselves like that, we must change our thinking and ways of dealing with overpopulated wildlife.

animal
December 2, 2007, 03:56 PM
One problem with them is that THEY seem to kill for "fun". Their instinct to hunt/kill is stronger than their need for food. It is a sad sight when you find a dozen or more quail dead, feathers and blood all over the place, one or two partially eaten, and coyote tracks.
The only natural enemies they ever had in this area that I know of were panthers and wolves. Panthers are long gone. I saw one scrawny gray wolf about 6 mos. ago (first one I’ve seen since I was a kid).. and no, I wasn’t tempted to shoot it.
Why are their natural enemies gone? …. Largely, they were killed off over a hundred years ago. Until they come back it becomes man’s responsibility to take their place and keep the coyote in line

joab
December 2, 2007, 03:57 PM
But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deathsNot true at all
A few months ago we had coyotes running down main street
We don't have cougars and coyotes have no natural predators here
OH hooo, So because i'm unfortunatley stuck in this hell hole state (where its snowing right now goddamn it) I'm automatically a high-horse riding, northeastern blissninny liberal who things than animals lives are worth more than human ones?No but all the posts that you have made so far have indicated that thisis an appropriate description of you
Well then, you couldn't be more wrong, but if we're going to start stereotyping, i'll just call you a southern bumpkin texan redneck, dumb as the day is long. How's that?Isn't that pretty much what all your post so far have added up to anyway

Why don't you wait till you get to Tucson before commenting on something you obviously have no knowledge of and can only present an emotion based argument about
Or at the very least why don't you actually try to learn from those with experience on the subject before interjecting your personal uneducated bias on the subject

Bigfatts
December 2, 2007, 04:07 PM
Another thing i want to point out with your argument is that it's not only that they're moving into our neighborhoods, but vice versa. The suburban sprawl is a big part of this problem.

Again, this is true. But though it is unfortunate it is inevitable that as the human population increases and spreads out, the animal populations must decrease and consolidate

But that is not the entire problem with Coyotes. Their problem is their smarts. They have come to the realization that where there are people, there is easy food, whether that food be in the garbage can at the end of the driveway or walking sedately at the end of a leash. And they have the perfect camouflage to get it unnoticed.

Paul B.
December 2, 2007, 04:09 PM
Well, Steel, I'm not going to agree with with you on the coyote problem. They are a problem. The state of Arizona has had at least two specialhunts at night up in the northern part of the state because they are literally kiling off the antelope fawns as fast as they are born. One herd had only 6 young survive to adulthood. Night hunts are normally illegal, even for coyotes.
When I lived in nevada in the late 1970s, I was paid bounty money by the local ranchers to kill coyote and I was allowed to keep the hides for sale. The hide were sold to fur buyer at at average of $100 a skin if properly prepared. I averaged $115 a coyote. The area in northern Nevada was big cattle country and a cow giving birth to a calf was defenseless to protect the calf as it was being born. They would eat the calf as the mother was birthing it. I've seen this more than once and it is not a pretty sight. The last year I did this kind of work, I cleared over $8,000 in sold hides and bounty money. Today, the price for hides wouldn't pay for the cost of ammo.
I still hunt them today, but rather than call them in, I sit on a hill and glass, just as if I hunted deer or elk. When I spot one, I try and do a stalk to get within range. Probably 99 percent of the time the coyote wins, but it's fun anyway.
You mentioned you were considering coming to Tucson. If you do, look me up. I'll give you a grand tour of the desert. I might even try and call up a yote ot two for you. I'll guarantee you that it isn't like shooting fish in a barrel.
Paul B.

animal
December 2, 2007, 04:11 PM
I forgot to mention... After thinning coyote/feral dog population, other animals recovered quickly except for the quail. They're back now too but it took several years.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 04:12 PM
Well, my mistake, i was originally speaking of the places where the coyotes DO have natural predators, not to where they've spread because of the lack thereof. Like here.

Not emotion based...well not in the way that i have some love for coyotes. No the truth is i get a little ticked when I hear of people hee-hawing over shooting a couple that just crossed their path.

Problem with controlling them by killing their population off is that the scientific facts point towards the conclusion that if their population starts to dwindle, most of the offspring born are female to then reinvigorate the population. I'm just saying its not as simple as just killing them off to keep their numbers down, because that isn't working, Unless you kill them all. At least that was the case in CA that i read about.

Anyway, this has veered quite a bit from my original intent to the direction of this thread. my 'high-horse' attitude is only of those who go out to hunt any animal, not for food or so much sport, but becasue they are easy to find and they can. The kind of people who would hunt to extinction and not even bat an eye. MY attitude has nothing to do with my location, and If i didn't have "MA" printed in there, it probably wold have never been brought up (which i knew it would, eventually).

edit: bah ok so i lost this one. But I still think in terms of population control, there has to be more thought put into this one than what we've been doing for years. And i still dont like people who get kicks out of shooting anything that moves.

Bigfatts
December 2, 2007, 04:29 PM
And i still dont like people who get kicks out of shooting anything that moves.

I agree.

joab
December 2, 2007, 04:32 PM
If i didn't have "MA" printed in there, it probably wold have never been brought up The origin of the attitude is easily discernible
It almost always come from a city dweller with little or no true experience with dealing with what they are railing against

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 04:38 PM
The origin of the attitude is easily discernible
It almost always come from a city dweller with little or no true experience with dealing with what they are railing against

I live in the sticks, and prefer them. I'm railing against like i said before, people who go out blasting anything that moves for the kicks. Trust me when I say, I have a tough time in this part of the country at my age to be pro-gun and pro -CCW when most of my friends have been brainwashed by the liberal attitudes around here. It sure makes chasing tail hard as soon as these girls find out I have guns. :D

Mainah
December 2, 2007, 05:19 PM
It's a great question. I can only speak for myself, living in a semi-rural part of Maine. Coyotes repopulated the state in the last century, the came down from Canada and filled the vacuum that was created after wolves, cougars, and most bears were wiped out. They may have crossbred with wolves in Canada, they've had recorded weights of up to 75 pounds in Maine.

Yeah, people shoot them for fun. But people also shoot them because they eat sheep, chickens, and other livestock. I've noticed that since coyotes have established themselves in suburban and urban areas some of the same people who cry and moan about shooting deer are worried to pieces about coyotes. I love it when I see a letter to the editor complaining about a coyote eating a pet cat- hello!???!- food chain.

Coyotes are fantastic. I love hearing them call at night in the woods behind the house. but I'd hunt the heck out of them if I had stock to protect. To me they represent nature's resilience.

obxned
December 2, 2007, 05:33 PM
If coyotes are 'well controlled", why are they now found in nearly every state instead of limited to the few states they originally inhabitied?

joab
December 2, 2007, 05:39 PM
I have a tough time in this part of the country at my age to be pro-gun and pro -CCW when most of my friends have been brainwashed by the liberal attitudes around here. It sure makes chasing tail hard as soon as these girls find out I have guns. My nephew lives in that part of the country and does alright
Perhaps it has to do with more than just being progun
Perhaps it has to do with an attitude that encourages you to criticize things you know nothing about and tell others how they should behaved based on broadbrush emotional arguments

George Hill
December 2, 2007, 05:56 PM
You come out here to the Uintah Basin and I'll show you the toll that coyotes have taken on livestock and the local populations of antelope, deer, and elk.
The coyotes have no fear anymore of people... too few people hunt them.
There are stories of coyotes taking pets, and threatening children. These are not just fantasy tales. This stuff happens. I saw an old rancher in tears, because coyotes had ravaged his newborn stock. A local kid in the FFA had her prize winning sheep killed.
I've got guys paying me to come around and hunt them around their areas.
And now some city dweller questions the validity of hunting predators?

You come out here and see things for yourself.

CraigC
December 2, 2007, 06:02 PM
IT looks to me like coyote hunting is more akin to shooting fish in a barrel

That statement, above all others, is a clear indication of your ignorance on this issue. It makes it PLAINLY obvious that you have no idea what it takes to hunt coyotes and that you have made your judgement from afar with little info in hand. And yes, you do immediately come off as an arrogant city dweller that think he knows better than us country bumpkins. Regardless of where you live or your intent.

Coyotes are such a problem in almost every state that they are open to hunting all year long with no bag limits. They wreak havoc on small game species, wild turkeys, deer, game birds, not to mention domestic animals like goats, sheep, calves, chickens, etc. You don't "defend" your livestock against them, you hunt them to control their numbers. Deer need to be hunted to control their numbers, period. Coyotes are no different.

I get a chuckle every time I hear that something has "no natural predators". As if we were an alien species that doesn't belong here. As if it didn't take thousands of years of evolution for humans to reach the top of the food chain.

TexasSeaRay
December 2, 2007, 06:14 PM
Well then, you couldn't be more wrong, but if we're going to start stereotyping, i'll just call you a southern bumpkin texan redneck, dumb as the day is long. How's that?

Long as you do it from up where you're at with the rest of the Mass-holes. I wouldn't advise trying it down here, especially in the rural areas. Northeasterners down here are about as popular as nosebleeds. Your attitude explains why.

Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.

Dead on right.

Hell, we have coyotes wandering our suburban neighborhood and like a previous poster noted, animal control won't do a damned thing--even when small dogs and cats start to turn up missing.

I'm not a huge fan of killing just to kill. But I also differentiate between wanton killing and necessary eradication.

Jeff

kozak6
December 2, 2007, 06:26 PM
There is a difference between killing for the sake of killing, and pest control.

Killing just for the sake of killing is abhorrent, unsportsmanlike, and reflects poorly upon all of us as shooters and sportsman.

Pest control serves a useful and necessary purpose.

Thunderhawk88
December 2, 2007, 06:29 PM
Hell, we have coyotes wandering our suburban neighborhood and like a previous poster noted, animal control won't do a damned thing--even when small dogs and cats start to turn up missing.


There are other reasons besides food for hunting and taking an animal. Coyote are considered a nuisance out here because of their numbers and the damage they do.

Taken from the California State Hunting Regulations

472. General Provisions.
Except as otherwise provided in Sections
478 and 485 and subsections (a) through (d)
below, nongame birds and mammals may not
be taken.
(a) The following nongame birds and mammals
may be taken at any time of the year and in any
number except as prohibited in Chapter 6: English
sparrow, starling, coyote, weasels, skunks,
opossum, moles and rodents (excluding tree and
flying squirrels, and those listed as furbearers,
endangered or threatened species).

It's a whole different world out here compared to the Bay State.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 06:50 PM
I'll admit when I'm wrong, and apparently I am. Sorry. MY attitude was only in response to being attacked in the first place. As far as the thread is concerned, i was trying to comment on some people who seemingly take more joy in just the wanton killing of whatever species is overpopulated than the hunt itself. The more the better, right? Problem is, they can use population control as an excuse, but I digress.

Again I admit about being wrong about the general problem of coyote overpopulation. I'm more than happy to learn more about it (as I'm currently doing) and I apologize for ruffling feathers. I wasn't trying to say that i know more than you guys, or what you're doing is wrong (unless you do it to get your rocks off). What i AM saying however is that I think we need to think of more effective population control measures because as far as i can tell, and I could be wrong, is that the coyote pop. is only getting bigger despite the hunts, unless they were really aggressively hunted down to normal numbers. Hows that?

Tom2
December 2, 2007, 07:20 PM
We got alot of coyotes around here in Ohio, even at the edge of town. Farmers shoot them to protect their pets and stock. Never saw one when I was a kid, thought they all lived 1000 miles away. Then I occasionaly saw one in town in the winter looking for little dogs to snack on or something. I have no problem with anyone clearing out as many as they can. We also have problems in this state with large deer herds. So get more venison to donate to the homeless shelters etc. Talk about shooting dogs. Well I hope it is really identified ferals, not some clown shooting the neighbors harmless pet because he broke off his chain. All the coyotes I have seen could not be mistaken for a pet, if seen clearly!

RockyMtnTactical
December 2, 2007, 07:29 PM
I don't have any problems shooting varmints and rodents for any reason whatsoever.

This thread reminds me of when PETA stepped in and made all kinds of threats to Oscar Goodman when they were needing to kill some of the pigeons that were really causing problems in Las Vegas... PETA ended up winning that one...

Hawg Haggen
December 2, 2007, 07:30 PM
Coyotes were a big problem in Ms. several years ago and the state had a bounty on them, may still have in some parts of the state. I never bothered them as long as they didn't bother me but when they started trying to get to my injured horse I cleaned house.

animal
December 2, 2007, 07:34 PM
And i still dont like people who get kicks out of shooting anything that moves.

I agree with that, but in my experience, it seems to apply more to the "city boys" who don’t know any better.

MrAnteater
December 2, 2007, 07:47 PM
I have no problem shooting animals whether its a game animal or a nuisance species. Sure it's fun and challenging. Why else hunt?

The bigger problem is there has been this growing movement in this country (animal rights groups and the like) that demonise hunting or shooting a nuisance animal because it's "cruel" in there eyes. They think animals have "rights" the same way human beings do. Especially if some animal is furry and cute to them. It's really sick and disgusting listening to people that think animals are more important than humans.

I feel for people in more rural areas that are stuck living with pests like coyotes. I'm all for controlling animals that effect peoples safety or livelihood.

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 07:52 PM
I have no problem shooting animals whether its a game animal or a nuisance species. Sure it's fun and challenging. Why else hunt?

The bigger problem is there has been this growing movement in this country (animal rights groups and the like) that demonise hunting or shooting a nuisance animal because it's "cruel" in there eyes. They think animals have "rights" the same way human beings do. Especially if some animal is furry and cute to them. It's really sick and disgusting listening to people that think animals are more important than humans.

I feel for people in more rural areas that are stuck living with pests like coyotes. I'm all for controlling animals that effect peoples safety or livelihood.

Oh boy, I hope I didn't come across as one of those types, because that was certainly not my intention and not how I feel. It grates my nerves to no end getting chastized by people for eating rabbit as they wolf down a hamburger.

Spacedoggy
December 2, 2007, 07:56 PM
Didn't Jeffery Dahmer start off that way?

44 AMP
December 2, 2007, 07:57 PM
Your problem with people who just seem to take pleasure in killing animals is justified. Sportsmen have had this problem for a long time. We used to call them "city hunters", and other less savory names.

See, the main problem is that anyone who buys a gun and steps off the pavement is a "hunter". NO matter how well or how poorly they exibit sportsmanship, to the press and the non-hunting public, they are "hunters", and the worst people tend to become the image that is held up to the public. The entertainment industry is dead set against what they call "blood sports" (unless it involves men in a ring that they can make money from), and killing animals is "cruel". These people have never seen, and never will see nature in it's actuality, only in the edited version you get on TV. It is not more cruel to humanely kill any animal with a gun, bow, or even traps, than it is for them to die a "natural" death. A natural death for a wild animal is to be killed and eaten by a predator (not exactly painless), to die of disease, or to starve to death when old age cripples them to the point where they can't get food. Or to die of cold or starvation in the winter. All kind gentle painless gun things, right? Old animals don't spend their time being cared for in nursing homes until one day the pass away in their sleep. Harvesting game animals could actually be looked on as a kindness, and true sportsmen do their best to take game cleanly, humanely, and as painlessly as possible.

Each generation for the last few, fewer and fewer people have taken un sport hunting, and have fewer and fewer places and opportunities to hunt. Many previously hunted animals are now protected, not because their populations are in danger of extinction, but because hunting is "wrong", and many places formerly open to hunting are now closed to it.

Coyotes back east (I grew up in northern NY, so I do know a bit about it), have filled the role of general predator, and as you have noted, have few natural enemies, and man in that area is not doing his job of being one of them. The reason the coyote comes into your subdivision, shows no fear, and raids your garbage and eats your pets is that he is not being hunted! So he stands there, and looks at you, because you are not dangerous to him. If you started hunting them, you would find out pretty quick that once they realize you are dangerous to them (and it won't take long), that they won't just stand there so they can be shot "like fish in a barrel".

True, coyotes don't attack humans often (or even frequently), but that is because they eat everything else. Humans aren't worth the trouble.

Population cycles are just that. Cycles. Have a mild winter, more rabbits survive, next year, more coyotes. Too many coyotes, eat too many rabbits, fewer rabbits, then fewer coyotes. Up and down. We killed or drove off the big predators, and we used to kill enough of the smaller ones (coyote, fox, bobcat, etc), but we had a lot more people (hunters and ranchers/farmers) who were doing it. And we used traps, And we used poison. And we never really did more than hold our own in local areas.

Today, you can't use poison (never really cared for that one myself, too indiscriminate), most places you can't use traps that kill, and many places no traps at all, and there aren't nearly as many people who can take the time to hunt them. AND, you don't get hardly nothing from hunting them anymore, either. 30-40 years ago, coyote pelts could bring as much as $100 for a prime winter pelt. Made the time hunting them worth it and more.

Can't wear (real) fur today they say it is "wrong". No market for coyote pelts anymore, can't hardly even give them away. Why bother hunting them if you aren't a rancher. And if you are, you don't really have the time.

No matter what you see on Disney, they aren't nice critters. They can (and do) carry rabies. And one kind of rabies has NO visual symptoms. They can be rabid without the wild foaming at the mouth behavior. And if you get bit, you got it too! And rabies is fatal, eventually. We have treatment, but it is no fun at all.

No matter who you blame for how we got here (over hunting predators, habitat destruction, whatever) the fact is we are here, and we are not being allowed to do what needs to be done, as well as it needs to be done. Not enough people hunt, hunting is looked down on by the social elite, trapping and poison are out, and the same social elite won't spend the money needed for game depts to manage the animals. In fact, the majority of the money that state game depts do get comes from hunters and fishermen, through license fees and taxes on sporting goods.

Out where I now live, we used to be able to hunt cougars. And they were hunted with dogs. A handful of cougars were killed each season. About half a dozen years ago, they banned dogs from being used. You can still hunt cougars, just not with dogs. Today, almost no cougars are taken by hunters each season, as cats are really hard to find and track down without something like dogs. Several outfitters who used to make money for the state (through fees) got out of the business, because, without dogs, there isn't any business. Cougar population is way up, and they are coming into towns now, because they are no longer afraid of dogs (and men). In fact the state, instead of making money off the hunting, now has to spend money ($2 million last year) hiring out of state hunters and using game dept personel to hunt, trap, and kill nuiance cougars. Children have been menaced, and there have even been a couple of attacks, fortuanately non fatal.

This is the animal protectionist idea of proper animal management. Do nothing, nature will take care of it all. Sure, it will all work out, but as it does we have to listen to the people who caused it whine.

grymster2007
December 2, 2007, 08:33 PM
Shooting any living creature for thrills is friggin sick!:barf: That said; there are legitimate reasons for dispatching animals that pose a threat or nuisance. I don’t mind anything edible being shot for the dinner plate (as long as it's not the last of the species or some such), and require a bit more justification for coyotes, wolves, bears, cats, etc. But just for thrills don’t cut it!

SteelJM1
December 2, 2007, 10:48 PM
Well said 44. That's all it takes to set me straight.

chris in va
December 2, 2007, 11:40 PM
I live in Virginia. The next county over has a bounty of $50 for any coyotes shot.

Problem is, to my knowledge VA really never had an extensive predator list. Bears, sure but they don't usually take down coyotes, and I'm not aware of any cougars in the area. That makes them top on the food chain, except for...you guessed it...humans.

So if hunters don't take them down, nothing else will except for old age and injury/disease. Last year I was coming home from the grocery store to see one run across a 4 lane road into my subdivision. Looked like a bushy tailed German Shepherd.

Sigma 40 Blaster
December 2, 2007, 11:43 PM
I think some people need to get off of their judgmental soap boxes, I bet that guy lives in the city. I had to drive 30 minutes to kill a coyote that had my mother in law trapped in her car like Cujo, not to mention they lose a few cattle a month due to these worthless animals. Any of them aggressive enough to approach me while I'm down there go down, I figure if they're smart enough to run they are good for their gene pool...don't really care what anyone has to say about that.

I do hunt hogs, deer, and squirrel (don't eat the tree rats but my brother in law does). I do it for several reasons, the challenge of the hunt being the primary reason...I'm not a treestand kind of guy, I actually get out in the woods, walk, hide, and sometimes chase on foot.

I'll go further and say I have no heads mounted on my wall and wouldn't go to an exotic place just to kill an exotic animal...I enjoy it, spending time with my family members who go out there with me, and enjoy the meat that usually results.

Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as the might protector of varmints but I have to worry about protecting my family (and our property) first. Killing humans and livestock is in a different category than stealing TV's or eating garbage...

TexasSeaRay
December 3, 2007, 12:39 AM
Sigma, you bring up a good point about the gene pool.

Coyotes are a testament to Darwin's theory. The truly superior examples of the species will, in all likelihood, never be seen nor shot by any human.

Why? They're smart enough and evolved enough to know that contact with or near humans is not good. They've perfected their hunting techniques, established territory, and become dominant in their "turf," thus driving the lesser examples into range of humans where they can then be disposed of.

Jeff

BillCA
December 3, 2007, 12:41 AM
I'm just saying its not as simple as just killing them off to keep their numbers down, because that isn't working, Unless you kill them all. At least that was the case in CA that i read about.

Thanks to Thunderhawk88 down in So.Cal for pointing out they're a nusiance animal even in liberal California.

Of course if you shoot one, expect some authority to show up because of a call about a man shooting at dogs. :rolleyes:

Up here in Northern California, it's pretty rare to see them around the bay area. But get into the hills or get out towards the central valley and you can find them... occasionally.

Here in CA, some of the urban sprawl (into the wilder areas) comes in the form of gated or "premier" communities (another way of saying a small house for a high price). Folks moved into one of these near San Diego and inside of 2 years had a problem with Coyotes. After 4 of 'em took down a pair of adult Weimaraners someone pleaded with the state to "do something". That turned out to be letting hunters shoot them just east of the community. But one resident was the treasurer for a local PETA chapter and organized a protest action "to prevent the reckless slaughter of Canis latrans". The irony is that while out protesting, a coyote killed her Yorkshire Terrier (Canis Rattus). Despite this, she still tried to stop the killing of Coyotes. :rolleyes:

Which just goes to prove that 'Yotes are smarter than some Californians.

Taxidermist
December 3, 2007, 02:56 AM
I'm from the sticks in northern New York and I enjoy hunting coyotes. Being a taxidermist I do use the hides. I sell them to city slickers. LOL. I can say there seem to be very few people left in this area who hunt any furbearers. I don't see hunting coyotes as hurting their population at all except it removes the dumb ones from the pack. It is getting harder every year to call them. You need to change calls it seems every year because they are smart and catch on quick. Besides that I enjoy hunting them and not ashamed to admit that.
John

NukemJim
December 3, 2007, 06:53 AM
SteelJM1

MY attitude was only in response to being attacked in the first place.

Sorry Steel JM1 your attitude was showing in your first post.

Your lack of knowledge and experience showed in most of your posts.

Not attacking you. Just stating my opinoin from reading the thread.

No hard feelings, you did not know what you were talking about and had an attitude about what you did not know. You know know a LITTLE bit more and seem to have changed you attitude a LITTLE bit .

NukemJim

PS SteelJM1 Please note my top signature line.

Oldphart
December 3, 2007, 03:53 PM
I don't hunt anymore. Not because I didn't enjoy it but because I can't get around in the hills and brush anymore. But this morning I killed an animal just because I was tired of listening to it.

I live in a house that was built in 1913. It has two floors, a basement and an attic. In the front yard is a walnut tree that draws squirrels from four states away. This fall, after the nuts were pretty well gone, one of those little tree-rats took up residence in my attic. I could hear the little beggar rustling around over my head as I tried to sleep. From time to time he'd drop something and I could hear it rolling around. Other times he'd just push the insulation into comfy little piles so he could rest on or in them.

This morning I pushed a step-ladder up under the trapdoor to the attic and ventured up into the dark. Now, as I've gotten older and less fit I've also gotten bigger so the trapdoor was a bit of a challenge just to get my shoulders through but I finally twisted and contorted until I could get both arms and my upper body through the hole. I scanned the smooth surface of fluffy insulation with my Maglite until I saw the damned squirrel sitting on a joist, eating one of my walnuts and otherwise ignoring me.

Since this had been just a recon trip I wasn't armed so I pulled myself back down through the trapdoor and retreived my daughter's 10/22, loaded it with Aguila Super Colibre and climbed back up there. The audacious little pest was still sitting right where I had seen him before so I laid my flashlight down to give me enough light, took careful aim and ....

My daughter, standing at the foot of the ladder asked me what went wrong since she's heard the hammer fall but didn't hear a muzzle report. I carefully handed the rifle down to her, then my cell-phone (it had fallen out of my pocket) and finally the bushy-tailed corpse.

So yeah, once in awhile I kill something I don't intend to eat but I still have a good reason.

grymster2007
December 3, 2007, 04:32 PM
Seems most here shoot animals for a reason. Put meat on the table, sell the furs, eliminate a threat or nuisance. I don’t recall reading a post from anyone “Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them”… think that’s a good thing.

BTW:

Up here in Northern California, it's pretty rare to see them around the bay area. But get into the hills or get out towards the central valley and you can find them... occasionally.

In the hills between Napa and Fairfield I’m seeing coyotes a bit more than “occasionally”. And some of them within 2 miles of Hwy 80.

MosinM38
December 3, 2007, 07:31 PM
We shoot coyotes once their fur is prime. And we trap them at that time..They don't casue major trouble so we wait until we can do something other that shoot them and leave them.

But we HAVE had troubles. A few years ago the snow got fairly deep and they started packing up. KIlled a couple newborn calves. So we started shooting them pretty hard after that.

I personally hate people who shoot a coyote just to kill something...The urge "To just kill something" isn't proper in most places.

But coyotes need to be controlled. It doesn't happen naturally (At least around here in Montana).

They CAN be dangerous. My uncle had one that although it didn't attack him...certainly wasn't afraid and was prowling around his house. Got a cat before he could shoot it....Now it probably wouldn't have happened, but...His 3 year old girl sometimes wanders round the house..Who knows..Play it safe than sorry.

But in ending..Anyone who kills anthing JUST for the fun of killing something....they almost should have their firearms taken from them....Pest control is differant..Such as me and dads shooting of over 15,000 rounds of .22LR ammo last year at gophers. (Down from 18,000 the year before ;) )

MeekAndMild
December 3, 2007, 11:22 PM
I don't know about the rest of the world but last month dogs/coyotes/foxes carried off a dozen of Mrs. Meek's chickens and three of her guineas. I have a blood feud with the wild Canis tribe but that doesn't mean I have any criticism against trophy hunters who kill them without other reason except that they need killing.

Right and wrong are purely human inventions; in the great wheel of existence each creature lives out its life in accordance with its own karmic destiny. While the man who finds pleasure in killing these animals might suffer for it in the next life I suspect that his fellow who lets one live out of misplaced kindness will suffer an equally bad fate (perhaps watching his own child die of rabies?) Likewise the man who hates his fellow man for reasons mentioned by previous posters is no better and indeed may be worse than the one one he hates.

homefires
December 3, 2007, 11:54 PM
I Don't shoot just to shoot them and kill. I shoot to eat, I shoot to protect and I shoot to Defend mine and my own.

One day I came home at about 6:00 AM and found about 30-40 of my 70-80 chickens in a blood bath! The front of my 5 acres looked like a seen from WWII!

I was keeping some 80 chickens free range during the day and cooped at night! I had problems with coyotes once in a while,, They take one or two and carry there dinner away. Wild dogs just kill to have fun and do the game. That day, I visited all of my nabors and told them keep your dogs home. I lost a pile of chickens and will correct it tonight. Of course they all said My Dog would not have done that!!!!!! Hoisted the latter, got on the roof 10/22 and sleeping bag in hand and slept there over the night. At about sun up here comes a dog. Two dogs, five dogs, 7 dogs, 12 dogs..........

I was amazed. Where to hell did they come from? After a few minutes when there number had raised, they started tearing up the coop!

I killed 9 dogs that morning! Did I like it, NO! Did it stop the problems, YES! Was the nabors ****** at me, YES!:eek::eek::eek:

fivepaknh
December 4, 2007, 02:54 AM
Steel,
If you don’t like coyote hunters that do it for the sport, then you must have a real problem with crow and prairie dog hunters.

I live in NH and I can tell you right now that hunting coyote is not like shooting fish in a barrel. They’re very smart animals and can be difficult to hunt in the northeast. I hunt them for sport and don’t feel I need to justify it. The state says I can, so I do. That’s good enough for me.

SteelJM1
December 4, 2007, 12:36 PM
NO, no problems with sport hunting. As i said before I was misguided in knowledge of these animals. I have plenty of humble pie still left to eat, thanks :)

The Tourist
December 4, 2007, 12:51 PM
I have no problem with varmint shooting, as implemented as the name implies.

That being the removal of pests.

There are plenty of places in both North and South Dakota where ranchers want prairie dogs controlled.

And before you rant and rave about "big money" or "big cattle," you should also know that many of these areas are also envirinmentally sensitive to the plight of the black-footed ferret.

During the early 1990's, they even published the telephone numbers of ranchers who wanted eastern varmint shooters.

I believe this a very important and distinct difference in the 1880's sport of slaughtering hundreds of buffalo from the back of a train for target practice.

RockyMtnTactical
December 4, 2007, 02:24 PM
Didn't Jeffery Dahmer start off that way?

According to profilers, 3 defining characteristics of a serial killer are that they exhibit 1) cruelty to animals 2) have a fascination with starting fires and 3) they wet the bed (60% of serial killers wet the bed past the age of 12).

Killing varmints, rodents, and other pests is not what I would consider "cruelty". Now, if you are torturing them before you kill them... well...

MD_Willington
December 4, 2007, 03:37 PM
We have livestock around here, the coyotes, if left to do as they please, will take the livestock... We do not appreciate the coyote taking the livestock ;)

MeekAndMild
December 4, 2007, 09:15 PM
homefires, sometimes I wonder at the irresponsibility of people who allow dogs to run free in the country. I also wonder if your local county ordinances might allow you to sue your neighbors for dog-related damages. I'm not a lawyer and not recommending frivolous lawsuits but allowing a dog to roam free where there are people who keep livestock sounds pretty negligent to me.

In my opinion once a dog gets into the frenzy of livestock killing there is only a small step from killing chickens and cats to killing small children. So my personal response is to remove the threat. But thats just me.

Also, no criticism if the .22 works for you, but I think that a shotgun works better.

Mannlicher
December 4, 2007, 09:46 PM
SteelJM1Just reading through a thread in another part of the forum made me wonder: Are people really afraid of coyotes, or are they just looking for quick justification to have something alive to shoot at? Certain things that were said really touched a nerve in me, and it made me realize that it's no wonder that a lot of non-gun people think we're all a bunch of rednecks he-hawing at the thought of blasting away a creature just because we can.


I kill coy dogs because they are hurting the deer population on the farms I hunt. Coyotes are a huge problem around her, killing not only deer, but game birds, rabbits and squirrels.

Besides, its fun to watch them jump high in the air when I hit one with the .243 :D

Double J
December 6, 2007, 10:14 AM
We used to have quail and lots of rabbits. Now we got coyotes and house cats. I'd rather hunt the rabbit because they taste better, but ...what the heck.

ronc0011
December 6, 2007, 11:18 AM
You know when I was a kid and I got my first BB gun and then later a 22 I used to kill things just to kill things. I am old enough now to understand the behavior. As a kid we try to imitate our parents but we don’t have all the understanding of a full adult person. We imitate the actions without being aware of the decision making process. As I grew older I didn’t really need anyone to tell me what it meant to kill something, I had done it often enough by then to understand it pretty well and to understand that it was something I didn’t really enjoy or feel good about. To make a dead thing from a live thing without some over riding reason is something I would prefer not to do.

That being said I think that there are not that many people, percentage wise, who fail to make this transition with the onset of adulthood. I know there are some, we see them on the news pretty regularly but they are by no means the norm. And I expect there are those who manage enough self control not to end up on the news but who are still able to feed their appetites by killing animals. In any event, as it pertains to problem animals I don’t think it maters who kills the animal as long as it gets done. It is a separate issue from what is going on inside the head of the shooter. That is an issue that society will have to address when it manifest its self in less acceptable ways. On occasions I have met people whom I instinctively had a bad reaction to and departed their company as soon as I was able. I can’t say why, only that there was something that set the alarms off in my head but I know that there are some people who really enjoy killing solely for the sake of killing, in other words it’s the act of killing that they derive pleasure from. These people I truly believe that there is something badly wrong with them. However I still think that they are anomalies and that they are by no means the norm.

So I think on a statistical level you could safely say that 0% of the shooters are wack jobs while on the individual level there are of course some wack jobs and of course there are the adolescents who just haven’t completed the transition into adulthood.

hogdogs
December 6, 2007, 12:18 PM
I will finish reading the 3 pages of this thread after i post...
I know of many "varmint" hunters and have never met a single hunter in my 39 years that hunts "for the sake of killing". Some hunt for the pelt sales, others hunt to reduce the population of predators but most hunt for the sake of the HUNT. To go up against a quarry that is hard to hunt. calling in a 'yote from over a mile away to within gun range without him busting you is the challenge for many. It ain't hard to see that 'yotes are destructive. They eliminate livestock as well as the wildlife already mentioned. Also, to the question "Why do they not have any natural predators?" it doesn't really matter since any predator of the 'yote is also preying on the livestock and wildlife already mentioned as being threatened by 'yotes. What about the non predatory varmints? They too are hunted mainly for the challenge. either the distance at which you must hunt from or the creatures elusive tendency makes them hard to hunt. For some creatures it is the fact that they are not a local native that makes them a target. For me, it is the ferral domestic cats. I hunt them because they are not native predators. Not many consider them prey so they leave them alone even though they are eliminating turkeys, doves and quail. They also hunt down squirrels and other animals considered game. But worse they are taking food from native predators like bobcats, 'yotes, cougar, hawks and falcons. Unless my client descibes a certain cat wearing a certain collar all are fair game. I want a yote pelt nailed to my shed wall. I would like a bobcat pelt but they do not do the damage in their low local population to warrant me targeting them. I never kill an animal to see it die. I hunt to be challenged for the shot or for food. I will shoot ringneck doves (also an invasive specie with no season in florida) to feed to my son's snake. Everything else I shoot through the year will be fed to me and my family or to the 9-10 hog hunting dogs on the yard. Less dog food to buy is a good thing and fresh raw meat is much healthier...
Brent

K8vf
February 9, 2010, 07:55 PM
I know this is an OLd thread, but I live in Northern Lower Mich, very rural.

Sheep ranching nearby, and cows, too.

Coyotes will gut doe whitetails when laden with young, they love sheep, and a yard gog or cat is a nice snack.

They have no enemies here, although(despite DNR assertions) we do have cougars, and MATING POPULATIONS, too.

SO Hunting coyotes here is appreciated and wanted.

Hunt some coyotes for the sheep rancher and you can hunt his 100 acres for deer and small game, too.

Works for me.

comn-cents
February 9, 2010, 08:06 PM
I live in a city of close to 80,000 people and I live not more than 2 miles from Main Street. I had two come into my back yard and try to pull my cat in two. I will shoot them just to kill them. We called the police and we were told "that we moved into their neighborhood, and that we should learn to live with them just like we live with birds & bunnies". The dispatcher’s words. My house was built in 1978 not a week ago. Now I’m scared to death of bunnies & birds with k9’s.


I’m not an ignorant redneck either.

plainsman456
February 9, 2010, 09:22 PM
I have lived here for 30+ years and can tell you they will eat a calf crop upand they really like chickens,small dogs and cats.
They will always be hunted here cuz they ate all the wifes's chickens.

hamr56
February 9, 2010, 09:56 PM
As a kid I watched them rip the throats out of baby lambs we had on the ranch. They are not something that needs protected, actually there are so darn many you can see them next to the interstate as you drive. The best part of this post is the amount of education that has been put before you, now go forward more educated.

knoxville
February 9, 2010, 10:01 PM
it's not the fact that people are afraid of coyotes as much as it is that they are a pest and threaten some peoples means of making a living and feeding there families they also prey on game that make our states revenue such as game birds elk deer etc. and some just like to keep there hunting skills in tune during the off season and were i'm from hunting coyotes has been our way of life since i can remember i guess the people that live in the city only have to worry about who's dog is messing in there front yard every morning probably wouldn't understand all of this

bullspotter
February 9, 2010, 10:32 PM
Wow interesting read, I would tend to say in MT their are lots of people who shoot praire dogs just for fun, (not really hunting, dont eat them, dont even hunt them, drive on out to a town, set up a bench and start shooting) Ill admit ive had a chuckle or 2 or 5 when i flip one out of its hole about 4 feet straight up with my 223. I guess it is some control of a pest, but is it really when the dog town is a 2 SQ miles and i only have 200 rounds to shoot up?

It would truely pest controll when the land owner would poisen them and their would be tens of thousands killed in a few days. Theirs also several areas that have fun shoots for yotes and prairie dogs, points for most kills, longest shots ext, this is not hunting, might be pest controll, but its mostly for fun, get some shooting time in and hang out with your freinds on a weekend. But in the end its still killing, and really for nothing but fun. Once again some pest controll, but mostly for fun.

I guess this will make me one of the guys who kills for fun sometimes. Im sory to offend some of you...I also deer and elk hunt for fun and enjoyment, I do it because I love the out doors, being with freinds and family on trips, all the fun times from the past and the storys we will get to tell in the next few years about that one thing that happend we will all remember, or get to laugh about someday. I also like to have a full freezer at the end of season, so for deer and elk, i do hunt for food as well haveing fun.

Double Naught Spy
February 9, 2010, 10:51 PM
The breed like rats

No, they do not. Coyotes typically only breed once a year, producing only one litter per year. While they reach sexual maturity at 1 year, most females do not breed until they are two years of age. Litter size ranges from 1-19 depending on resources and pressures. Pre-adult mortality is 40-60%.

Rats? Rats breed multiple times per year and depending on the species, may produce litters every 30-40 days and be sexually mature and start breeding within a couple of months of being born. Litter sizes range from 2-10 with up to 9 litters per year (depending on species, environment, etc.).

So no, coyotes most definitely do not breed like rats.

Regolith
February 9, 2010, 11:58 PM
So he stands there, and looks at you, because you are not dangerous to him. If you started hunting them, you would find out pretty quick that once they realize you are dangerous to them (and it won't take long), that they won't just stand there so they can be shot "like fish in a barrel".

I actually had one sit there and look at me while I was hunting deer in Northern Nevada. He definitely didn't just sit around to be shot, though; soon as I raised my gun to take him he took off running. Didn't get a shot on him after that; a coyote running through waist high sagebrush is not easy to hit (or see, for that matter). They are not stupid. They know when they're being threatened, and they act appropriately.

Actually, I've never been able to shoot one, partially for that reason. And partially because I don't go out of my way to hunt them.

45Gunner
February 10, 2010, 01:28 AM
Years ago, shortly after I returned from Vietnam, I had gone with a friend and fellow worker out to a remote spot in the Everglades to do some target shooting. As we walked down a trail, he raised his rifle and shot a bird out of the sky without any warning. He was proud of his shot. I was stunned. I asked if he was going to recover the bird to bring it back home to eat. He said no, it was just a target.

That was the last time I did anything with that guy. After seeing lives wasted for I still don't know why, I swore I would never be part of taking a life, human or otherwise unless it was self preservation. Taking an animal life for food, in my opinion, is justifiable...it's a matter of rank on the food chain. But, to take a life simply for sport is not my idea of fun. Taking an animal life if it is threatening life higher up the food chain is also acceptable as long as it is done in defense or preventing the destruction of cattle or domestic animals.

But to simply use an animal, a defenseless animal, for target practice is vile and a waste and is akin to what these worthless gangbangers are doing to themselves during their turf wars. The sad part is innocent civilians get hurt or killed. I would have less compunction killing one of those scum in self defense that I would shooting at a non aggressive animal minding its own business. In this instance, the animal would be the higher of the two on the food chain.

riggins_83
February 10, 2010, 01:36 AM
If the animal:

Is causing damage to my home or land (woodchucks, wood peckers) actively... not because they're an animal that has potential to.

If the animal carries a high level of disease (such as prairie dogs).

If the animal sees me as lunch

If I see the animal as lunch

Then it's fair game.. otherwise I won't shoot it.

Carryabigstick
February 10, 2010, 01:47 AM
I have never shot a coyote but I would if I felt like it. I do not think there is anything wrong with shooting animals just for the sake of sport. Most people only hunt for the sake of sport. I know you can eat the animals but they only kill it themselves for the fun of killing. I am fine with this. As long as we are being good stewards then we are fine. I have friends that shoot ground squirrels by the dozens and it is just for fun. We do not have to eat animals but we do because it gives us enjoyment (meat tastes great). The same is with hunting, we do it cause it is fun. BTW killing an abundance of God's creatures untill they are going extinct is wrong.

geetarman
February 10, 2010, 06:33 AM
Well. I am going to sound off.

I used to hunt and hunt a lot. I had no problems killing groundhogs and other pests and had a good time doing it.

I have to say things have changed as I have gotten older.

I have not hunted for a number of years and I was over at Bass Pro watching a video that someone had put together of coyote hunting.

I don't know why, but the video really bothered me.

I can understand killing pests around the home place and am not opposed to hunting or fishing.

It is just one of those things that does nothing for me anymore.

I love the outdoors and punching paper, but taking game is not part of the plan anymore.

Try not to be too harsh. . .ok?

Bud Helms
February 10, 2010, 09:21 AM
Well, hunting game or shooting "pests" as a control measure, either is justified if you engage ethically.

But having fun hunting or shooting for pest control aren't the same thing as shooting an animal for fun.

I also don't consider pest control as Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them.

ZeroJunk
February 10, 2010, 09:47 AM
I like to hunt deer, quail,and rabbits. Coyotes like to eat fawns, rabbits, and quail. They also kill beagles occaassionally when they catch them out. House cats also, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it aggravates my wife. They weren't here until recently.

So, coyotes are persona non grata.

zukiphile
February 10, 2010, 09:47 AM
We used to call them "city hunters", and other less savory names.


I might be one of those.

I am a city lad. I grew up around people who thought squirrels and pigeons were "nature". I still live in the city and semi-regularly shoot skunks. I have small children and prefer to let them out without worrying about an enormous smelly weasel with rabies biting them. I've shot an irritating crow in town as well.

I also have to note that I did enjoy the challenge of shooting groundhogs out int he country. One had made its home in the ramp of our bank barn in the country. It seemed to know when I didn't have my rifle or had used my ammunition from my morning walk. He would just look at me from his hole. It took months for me to find him sitting, looking around, but not at me and when I had a round left.

Zuk, you just admitted to being regularly outsmarted by a rodent.

It isn't a proud moment.

FyredUp
February 10, 2010, 10:05 AM
I live in a small rural village in south central Wisconsin and the wildlife abounds here. It is not unusual to see anywhere from 4 to 7 deer make their way across my front lawn on any given day. Or to see numerous small birds, including 3 kinds of woodpeckers, at my bird feeder. Or to see the paw prints of racoons down by my pond. Or the occassional opossum roaming around late at night. I enjoy watching the redtailed hawks that perch in the trees around here and of late there has been a bald headed eagle soaring over the creek across the street.

I have dogs and quite a supply of outside barn cats. I have had to kill a couple of raccoons and a opossum with distemper that threatened my animals. The last opossun I shot was right on my front door step menacing my cats. I do not kill anything simply for the sport of it. If it isn't menacing people, my animals, causing damage, or I am not going to eat it...I don't kill it.

I may be unusual in the fact that I don't enjoy the killing. To me it is a means to an end, protection of life and property, and food. Nothing more. I enjoy the shooting sports, but to say you enjoy killing seems a little twisted to me.

reloader28
February 10, 2010, 11:20 AM
I dont care what some of you say, I love killing coyotes and foxes. We shoot as many as we can every year. They are not worth skinning, but there is a bounty on them. I love bird hunting and coyotes and foxes eat alot of them so why not shoot the coyotes?

If it was legal, I would shoot hawks ,owls ,and eagles too cause they also feed on pheasants and chuckars.

I dont just go around killing whatever I can, but its checks and balances. If a place is being overrun with something then it obviously needs hunted and put back in its place.

I hunt the fall and winter to fill the freezer. Then I hunt the rest of the year to protect the land (prairie dogs) and run varmint control with the "dogs" and jackrabbits.

I'm not so good at putting my feelings into words, but this is my feeling. I hope I dont come off as being a major azzhole, cause I'm also against animals suffering if you can believe that.

BTW...I cant help it. I love splattering prairie dogs all over the mound.:D Luckilly I'm protecting the land doing it.

mnhntr
February 10, 2010, 11:39 AM
If the yote poulation was naturally controlled they would not allow you to hunt them without season or bag limits. I hunt them and all predators for the selling of the hide and to increase the small game numbers. The more predators i kill the more ducks, turkeys, grouse, pheasant, and rabbits there are.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m104/ekhunter/002-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m104/ekhunter/030.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m104/ekhunter/006.jpg

FyredUp
February 10, 2010, 11:40 AM
Again, I believe there is a HUGE difference between enjoying the shooting sports, pest control, and the necessary culling of the herd, and out right enjoying the killing.

I just see the enjoyment of the killing as somehow just so damn wrong. Especially, if that is your motivation for shooting an animal in the first place.

KingEdward
February 10, 2010, 12:08 PM
hunting is finding and killing an animal.

shooting a coyote is killing an animal.

stepping on a cock roach is killing an animal.

All of which I have done with no regrets.

I do know someone who chooses not to hunt, nor would they shoot
an animal, nor would they step on a bug.

to each his own.

Patriot78
February 10, 2010, 12:18 PM
I would say I am in agreement with 45gunner, geetarman and somewhat in Fyredup's position. I don't enjoy the killing/hurting of God's lil critters just for the heck of it. Those that do, well....... When it comes to the protection of my lil flock of chickens, peafowl or any of the other critters I enjoy raising, or the disposal of pests getting into the garden, well thats a different story, though I take no pleasure in the act itself. As an earlier poster mentioned, it wouldn't hurt US to be more sensitive toward the LIVES of these critters, given they are not being destructive.

Brian Pfleuger
February 10, 2010, 01:17 PM
I've hunted woodchucks for many years and I can safely say that I have no compassion for them whatsoever. I certainly do not revel in their pain and I make every effort to kill them as quickly as possible but I do thoroughly enjoy shooting them. In fact, I'll take every chance that I get to kill one. I'll swerve to hit them with my car. Their pests, nothing but, and I treat them as such.

It seems like there's two separate questions at play here.

One concerns "enjoying" killing, the other concerns "shooting for the sake of shooting". I don't "enjoy" killing woodchucks, but I most certainly do enjoy hunting them and I do it for no purpose OTHER than to kill them. There may be rationale for killing them, such as preventing damage to farmers livestock, crops and equipment, but MY rationale is hunting. Nothing more. Plus, it makes me laugh when they explode. (http://www.dogbegone.com/video/maxcarn1.wmv) <-CAUTION! GRAPHIC CONTENT!

johnbt
February 10, 2010, 01:56 PM
Would they let me hunt coyotes in Rock Creek Park in downtown D.C.?

From the Washington Post in 2004...

"Kathi Kolbe learned this the hard way. On Aug. 16, she and her son were walking in the northern end of Rock Creek Park, near Oregon Avenue. Their two King Charles spaniels roamed off leash nearby, something that is not allowed in the park but widely done. Suddenly, she heard barking, one dog ran back to her and then came the "brutal and gruesome" sounds of an attack.

She yelled out -- "Never, even in childbirth, have I screamed like that" -- and the second dog broke free. She looked back to the ridge where the sounds had come from and saw two forms that she now thinks were coyotes.

Her 30-pound dog, Tucker, had puncture wounds around his head and rump. He needed sutures for his wounds and would not leave the house for two weeks. Now, if Kolbe sees people taking dogs into the park, she warns them to keep their dogs leashed and close by. Park officials have posted warning signs. "

This is all old news, the east coast is overrun with the buggers, some of them topping 50 pounds.

____________

Overrun meaning a population of about 100,000 just in Virginia and a reported harvest of 20,000+ a year now.

www.predatorxtreme.com/ArticleContent.aspx?id=461

"Mike Fies, wildlife research biologist for the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, told the AP that coyotes first became established in southwest Virginia in the early 1970s and have become increasingly common since. They have also moved into virtually every other part of the state. Hunting dogs all the way in eastern Virginia’s Southampton County routinely catch and kill coyotes.

While negative impacts have yet to be seen on game populations, the biggest problem is for livestock farmers. Foxes, both red and gray, tend to diminish when coyotes move in simply because they compete for the same resources and coyotes are larger, more efficient hunters.

For a reflection of how coyote populations are exploding in the state one needs to only look at harvest records. Hunters in 1994 killed 1,200 coyotes in Virginia; in 2006 they killed more than 20,000. The state’s current population is estimated at over 100,000."

johnbt
February 10, 2010, 01:59 PM
"it wouldn't hurt US to be more sensitive toward the LIVES of these critters, given they are not being destructive."

Not being destructive? That's funny. I suggest you get out more and talk to people about the problem.

John

MosinM38
February 10, 2010, 07:39 PM
*yawn* already posted once...but here goes for the second come around...

#1. Coyotes. Coyotes do NOT...have natural predators where I'm at. Human trapping, shooting, and calling is all they've got.

People look at calling and "Ooh it's a poor defensless animal"....I call the big word that would get me banned. :D You've obviously not seen all the coyotes called in. They border on deer-level intellegance when it comes. You don't see them if they don't want it, and it takes skill to call one in. They don't just wander in when a cassette tape is insert :rolleyes:




#2. Praire dogs and gophers. Okay, I'll admit. We do that for enjoyment. But it's not the "ooh awesome. we KILLED something", reason.

We spend huge amounts of time and money on the poisening of them. We also spend large hours fixing their damage. Harm to grazing, destruction of crops (Ever seen a 120 acre Barley field MOWED by gophers? It's sickening), and the money we spend repairing machinary. I figure a roughly (Minimum) $5,000 yearly damage JUST to equipment from increased wear and tear, not to mention direct causes like broken guards and cutting teeth from hitting a gopher hole.

So, the shooting is a recreation. It hones skill by hitting a small target. And I think a large percentage of shooters get a kick out of seeing a target go flying a dozen feet in the air. But it's not the killing itself that's fun. Think multiplying reactive targets. I have no compunctuations because of all the extra trouble, hardship and expense they cause us.


What does disguist me on any, every and total level.

People who go out and pretend they're like all the other varmint shooters and predator callers, who do it FOR...the killing. Who do it just to enjoy killing something. Those are the same people who shoot a dozen deer in a year, cut off the horns and leave the bodies lay.

Dragon55
February 10, 2010, 07:55 PM
Nothing has been posted about what bugs me a little.

I totally understand most of the animals we hunt in the U. S. ......... we eat it or it is eating our livestock/poultry.

What I don't understand is when we travel to another country to do a 'big game hunt'.

I guess I don't understand trophy hunting of walrus, elephant, kangaroo etc.

jhenry
February 10, 2010, 08:23 PM
An African hunt? Now that would be a dream hunt for me. A nice plains game hunt can be had for less than the cost of a guided elk hunt in the states. The big stuff? Well that entails big bucks.

Not that I am complaining. I do after all, live in America, and hunt what we have locally. Quite enjoyable, and something I share with my friends and 2 sons.

My freezer just isn't big enough for an elephant anyway.

reloader28
February 10, 2010, 09:41 PM
I wouldnt mind going to another country to hunt if I could afford it.

As far as I know tho, you cant bring back any meat, just horns. All the meat goes to the local village for food, clothes, tools, etc..... Nothing is wasted, so I dont have anything against that at all.

L_Killkenny
February 10, 2010, 10:00 PM
As stated earlier, Coyotes = rats. Also, I could make a horrid shot on a coyote leaving it to die a slow and painful death and in the grand sceme of things actually reduce the amount of suffering in nature. Coyotes aren't very nice to critters it kills and they kill a lot more than I do.

LK

HiBC
February 11, 2010, 02:59 AM
Some folks,and I can think of a hog hunter who posts here who qualifies,include hunting,like a garden,as an excersize in home economics.It is cost effective.

Most of us who hunt cannot economically justify the meat/food factor.Few duckhunters bring home enough meat to pay for the cost of gasoline,non-toxic shells,and permits.But,bein there,calling them in,making the shot,and killing the bird is the point It is fun.It is less fun to miss the bird every time.Hitting and killing the bird is part of the fun.Or,are we honest?.Eating the duck,that is an extra bonus.

Calling in a coyote and killingg it is is the same.I just don't eat dog.
I also like coyotes.I love to listen to them,and I lke to see them.Someday,I hope they sing over me as they gnaw the scraps off my bones.

I recall going to a DOW conference on Colorado deer populations.Coyote predation was an issue.They said a mature doe was durable,but fawn predation was a real problem.Political correctness caused them to discuss coyote contraception,etc.But over break,unofficially,a warden told me he would prefer we killed all the coyotes we could.

They are smart and adaptable.I have witnessed them biting on a calf that was only partially born.the cow was helpless.I built my 7mm rem mag Laredo Coyote rifle
The city I live in started transplanting prairie dogs to a neighboring property.They infested the ranch I hunt on.This is dryland,arid.PD's shave the ground bare,carry plague,make a haven for rattlers,and put holes and mounds all over.They turn rangeland useless.You still pay taxes on it.

How does a fellow with hunting priviledges help out the landowner?If the land owner says "Shoot some coyotes and PDs,",I do.I'm not ashamed to say I have fun doing it.

If I have a mouse in the house,and set a trap,I fell good and smile,and say "Gotcha!
when I hear the trap whack.I like it when I slap a fly and get him.

But,I usually leave a rattler alone,and I release most fish.I'm real careful about not shooting the burrowing owls among the PDS,so I don't whack everything

pier-rat
February 11, 2010, 07:55 AM
Sadly, a lot of firearm enthusiasts are just rednecks. Read this site, you'll see, and they just promote the bad view of us, and promote liberals to make more gun laws.

When was the last time you heard about a coyote killing(or even attacking) a human, even a wolf? They don't they are to shy. Come on, in Tuscon, people see them downtown.

If it was a grizzly bear charging you then, that is that, but it is not. "Oh, no, look at that wild black lab, he's going to kill me, I have to shoot it!"

It is the same story with snakes(listen to this guys), I am a amateur herpetologist(one who studies reptiles and amphibians), and I'll tell you, snakes don't chase you or anything. Most people who are bitten are trying to kill the snake. Snakes only defend themselves, and at that, they don't chase you, if you are bitten thats, it, you have no reason to kill the snake, you just need to go to a hospital.

N.H. Yankee
February 11, 2010, 08:34 AM
i have so many coyotes around here there is literally nothing left as far as small game and the deer herd has taken a massive beating. I have found deer yards full of the remains of deer and have seen the attack sites by the coyote. Small pets are often the victim of coyotes around here and the turkey population has been decimated as well.

Behind my house there are nothing but massive coyote trails, the coyote around here has no natural enemy to control numbers. Man is the only form of population control in my area, I have 3 large packs all within 1 mile of my house and nothing else, they even killed a moose 2 years ago after a 3 day attack which I followed while snowshoeing.

MosinM38
February 11, 2010, 08:45 AM
Oh no N.H. Yankeee....that couldn't happen...don't you know that coyotes and wolves only attack WEAK...and SICK animals???????

Lol, just kidding. But you'll probably hear that here in a few posts. :rolleyes:

No offence, but a few of you are speaking from knowladge gained from Enviromental ed programs, wildlife information shows, and the like.


The "Coyotes and wolves only kill the weak and injured", is one of the biggest myths out there. When the snow gets deep, they'll kill even full grown deer. A pack of a dozen coyotes will take turns tiring a deer in the deep snow...It happens. We've seen it.



As for the snakes...I know the MAJORITY of snakes won't attack...But from what I've seen, there's always that percentage that do. Just like humans who become criminals, there's peeved snakes.

There's been a number of times I come on a snake, and try to avoid them, but they get ticked and DO try attacking you. It's nothing to joke about, and I seriously wish people would stop saying they don't.

ClayInTx
February 11, 2010, 09:05 AM
Also, I believe SteelJM1 has been flamed enough, He apologized, and why I don’t know, but he did and it should end with that. He might have phrased his OP comments differently but I saw nothing to indicate he is a north-east, big city, do gooder liberal.

I go along with killing any animal which has become a pest, a danger, or an economic liability.

I have no use for anyone who kills for the fun of killing. If they are adults they are sick. If they are children they need straightening out and if they cannot be straightened out then something is very wrong with them or their environment.

Uncle Buck
February 11, 2010, 09:11 AM
Coyotes/fox/raccoons/skunks/possums - All get into my chickens, turkeys, geese and ducks. At what point do I say OK? How many do I lose before I can not make money on them?

Coyotes will attack young cattle (weak and helpless) that are either on the ground or being born.

Squirrels and mice get into my feed. I can only do so much to protect the animal feed I have. It is not economically feasible for me to put 2,000 pounds of corn in barrels or buy a silo to hold it. How much feed am I supposed to let get ruined? (They do not just eat it, the urinate and defecate in it.)

Ground Hogs, whistle pigs or what ever you want to call them, will put holes in my banks and fields. The cattle step in them and break legs, the wagons roll over the mounds and break axles.

Mink and weasel dig holes in the lagoon bank, weakening it. If the lagoon leaks into the nearby stream, the DNR fines me more than my property is worth.

Bobcats are beautiful, but when they walk off with my geese, what am I supposed to do?

Snakes make great pig food. I get pretty large snakes in my barns. They eat baby chicks and ducks as well as eggs.

Cats. I just lost four very expensive birds to the neighbors cat. I had talked to him in the past and he just giggled and said cats would be cats. I hated to do it, but that cat will not get another one of my birds. (That being said, I do have a cat that sits in my barn and just watches everything going on. Last night he (?) was curled up asleep with the baby goats.)

The only two things I hunt any more for food is squirrel and an occasional deer.

I take some pretty good measures to protect my other farm critters, but I am not going to fence in everything I own, with covers over every pen and electric wire on every fence post.

I am against putting poison out for these critters (It may be illegal, but I do not know) because I do not want them to suffer. But I will shoot anyone of them I see on my property. You can call me a redneck, but until you are ready to put up the money to make my animals safe, please do not judge me or any other farmer.

Drachenstein
February 11, 2010, 09:53 AM
Living in the country has its good points and bad points. The double edged sword is the great outdoors is one step outside your door. All the tree hugging, tofu eating, enviromentalism, isn't going to help the feelings you have when you find your pet of many years torn up in your yard. You also won't forget the look in your kid's eyes. If you think fences and such will keep them out you're a fool doomed to learn a hard lesson. An 8 foot cyclone fence is nothing to a coyote.

Yep, I got a .308 for coyotes, foxes, feral dogs, and possums. I use a broom on the racoons but will shoot them if they don't run off. Do I enjoy killing? No. But I enjoy burying my pets even less.:mad:

Patriot78
February 11, 2010, 10:16 AM
Thats it. I'm reporting y'all to PETA! :p Not. In my earlier post, I did not intend to insinuate that coyotes are not at all bad, rather, what I meant was that as long as they are not CAUSING DAMAGE I don't see any reason to kill them or any other critters for that matter. Call me Marty Stoeffer if you will, I just enjoy Our Wild America. "Til next time, enjoy our wild America". I loved that show. ;)

Brian Pfleuger
February 11, 2010, 10:23 AM
what I meant was that as long as they are not CAUSING DAMAGE I don't see any reason to kill them or any other critters for that matter.

Define "causing damage".

Coyotes can DECIMATE whitetail deer populations when the coyote population is out of control. How exactly do I tell which coyotes are "causing damage" and which ones aren't?

Do you know how you keep coyotes from "causing damage"? You kill them. They have no natural predators in most places. That means that they will multiply uncontrollably and only stop multiplying when they exhaust the food sources. In other words, when they decimate the populations of anything deer sized and smaller.

I'm not going to wait for that to happen. Actually, it's already happening. I WILL kill every coyote that I can get in my crosshairs, and it will lay there on the ground and rot.

edward5759
February 11, 2010, 10:33 AM
I did not want to add to the thread Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them? But I had to.
Where I live is in the southwest. We have had many people move to the area over the last 50 years. Some are living right out in the desert. These people for the most part were from back East where a person with a gun is never seen. Some of these people saw hunters and shooters out and about and then they tried to ban open carry in their town. It failed because of State Law. Well the people got together and incorporated their town and said no Hunting. Needles to say coyote population went nuts. So the people got the Game and Fish to put out poison for the coyotes, they ate it.
Then the birds ate the poison, ground squirrels ate the poison. Then the plants absorbed the poison ETC… Soon everything living in the area was dead. Even an Elk herd that was the only desert dwelling heard of Elk in the world. The area still has not recovered and its been 40 years plus since it was done.
So… when someone starts complaining about Coyotes, bob cats, Fox, etc… in the area we start to over hunt the area and it like preparation H it cools the area down for a few years.
Ed

zukiphile
February 11, 2010, 10:40 AM
These people for the most part were from back East where a person with a gun is never seen.

Let me re-enforce the cultural difference.

When it comes up that I shoot, while three out of ten people in the room may express mild and polite interest, a lot of the rest will look at me as if I've just passed gas audibly.

This is especially burdensome on those occassions when I haven't just passed gas.

dahermit
February 11, 2010, 10:50 AM
I do not like to kill anything. I have given up hunting but had so much fun for so many years doing it that I support hunting 100% so that others may have the enjoyment I have experienced.
Nevertheless, inasmuch as I have 10 or so outdoor cats, and 9 adult geese, I will kill on sight any coyote that I see near my property. It may be notable that I have lost three or so geese to domestic dogs and have shot one domestic dog and will attempt to kill any dogs that approach my geese. I have given up raising chickens (pets) as there are too many 'coons, fox, and possums that have killed them. I will continue to shoot 'coons, fox, and 'possums on sight as a service to my Amish neighbors who still attempt to raise chickens.
It is not about blazing away at those animals for the fun of it. It is about reducing the population of predators that have exploded due to the anti-fur movement's efforts that have resulted in trapping no longer being profitable.

edward5759
February 11, 2010, 10:54 AM
It is the cultural difference. I’ve received calls for a man with a GUN.
As a Deputy Sheriff I had to explain to the person who called
"This is an open carry state."
There reply is quite often
"I moved from back east to an insane asylum"
Ed

Patriot78
February 11, 2010, 11:24 AM
I'm with you Ed. That's a real shame to hear of the exstinction of those Elk. Which makes a point. Carelessness leads to the extinction of certain critters. Thats what I don't like to see. Don't get me wrong, I've done in countless coons, possums, snakes, wild cats and even a couple of stray-wild dogs that were getting to my flocks of guineas, chickens, peafowl, geese and get this, those wild dogs trying to get at me and my own dogs. :eek:

By no means am I trying to pass judgement on others. I simply don't care for the senseless, careless, uneccesary killing of critters. Once again, given they aren't being harmful.

The rest of you, I'm still reporting to PETA. :p just kidding

NJgunowner
February 11, 2010, 03:36 PM
I don't know. I go way out of my way to avoid contact with snakes or anything really when i go to the midwest to visit. But I have to say after a recent Discovery channel special on feral pigs, I'd happily shoot those things. They don't belong on this continent in the first place, and they destroy EVERYTHING and breed like crazy.

So I guess there is some justification for some of it. I don't think I'd take much pleasure in it, but I'd do cause they shouldn't be here anyway. Coyotes may belong here, but they're population is exploding out of control in a lot of places and they adapt to suburban areas easily.

Nickanto
February 11, 2010, 05:22 PM
I shoot yotes because it's fun and it's legal. There are plenty of them. Any questions?

markj
February 11, 2010, 05:48 PM
Coyotes are varmints, we kill them off here. Used to get 50.00 for a set of ears back in the bounty days.

Used to trap for fur too, no money in it these days so we have a lot of varmints running around. Rabies can be spread by varmints. Some folks just dont understand what happens when the natural balance isnt there, the varmints get out of hand.

Deer are soon to be varmints. Sorry bambi lovers we kill and eat them.

L_Killkenny
February 11, 2010, 06:47 PM
I have no use for anyone who kills for the fun of killing. If they are adults they are sick. If they are children they need straightening out and if they cannot be straightened out then something is very wrong with them or their environment.

So when I high five a buddy after a heck of a shot or laugh when a deer does a complete back flip after being hit I'm a bad guy get real and man up for lords sake. Talk about the wussification of America.

So far Nickanto is about the most honest post in the thread and I'll go with his reason. 99% of the hunters out there hunt and kill for the sake of doing just that. Sure they/we/I eat what meat is usuable and take fur that is good and generally do a favor to the enviroment when we kill varmints. We get the added enjoyment of spending time in nature, testing our skills and spending time with friends and family but all of that is just gravy and generally BS that sounds good when it comes explaining why we hunt to bunny huggers. You can lie to them and to yourself but I've never seen a hunter yet that didn't get a grin as the fur ot feathers hit the dirt.

I am the ultimate predator and seems to be a dang shame if I were to try to wuss out on it. Feel free to do that yourself but stay the heck outta my way! I'm going hunting for whatever moves.

LK

Uncle Buck
February 11, 2010, 07:38 PM
did not intend to insinuate that coyotes are not at all bad, rather, what I meant was that as long as they are not CAUSING DAMAGE I don't see any reason to kill them or any other critters for that matter.

Just because they are not causing damage to your property or killing your pets, does not mean they are not causing havoc elsewhere.

I understand what you are saying now, but I still have to disagree with you. The reason they have not eaten fluffy is because they have been busy eating my chickens. When they get through with my critters, they are heading your way.

There is almost no way that we would kill all the coyotes here in Missouri (Although I would be happy to try!), we have so many of them we can only thin the pack.

We have two options to thin them out: Shoot them or run them over with a car. Cars get stuck in the fields and leave awful ruts.

FyredUp
February 11, 2010, 09:20 PM
Apparently some of you either have a reading comprension problem or just refuse to read what others post.

I NEVER said that you shouldn't shoot pests. I even said in my first post that I have and will continue to do it. I NEVER said that you shouldn't hunt. I even said in my first post that I have and will continue to do so.

What I am saying it that killing just to kill, and enjoying killing just for the killing, in my mind is incredibly wrong. It is not the same as celebrating an incredible shot that makes the kill. To me it is pathological and a sign of some sort of mental disorder.

reloader28
February 12, 2010, 01:17 AM
FyredUp
So what are you saying?
That you are all for gun control and are against hunting and pest control?


Sorry. Just kidding. I couldnt resist.:D

KCabbage
February 12, 2010, 09:12 AM
I'm with you. I used to kill animals for fun as a kid, but now have the utmost respect for them unless one is trying to kill me. However, yesterday my neighbors little bastard of a dog was in my yard looking to do his duty as I was taking out the trash. My Husky was all over him kinda knocking him around :D. I went to pull my dog off of the little on and that little bastard tried to bite me. I wanted to field goal him into the neighbors yard, but didn't. That little thing is so mean. He doesn't mind my dog at all but, once he sees a human he turns into a vicious little beast.

My girlfriend even told me she once saw one of his younger owners pick him up and the dog tried biting her :eek: If we have this problem again i'm making a call, I don't want one of my kids getting biten by that mangy thing.

Hog Hunter
February 12, 2010, 09:30 AM
Allthough killing animals is something that i love to do, i dont belive you should kill an animal just to be killing it. I shoot alot of hogs every year that i just drag to the grave yard (as I call it,) but i also keep alot of the smaller ones i shoot and if somebody ask me to bring them one back then ill do it. The reason I do what i do is because of the crop damage they cause, and planting a foodplot of corn or soybeans, forget it. Two days after you plant it their gonna have it rooted up. Im also trying to manage the population of these critters cause they multiply like you wouldnt belive.

As far as the yotes go i like to shoot them to. I use not to till i found a guy that wanted there pelts, so then i started shooting them. I no longer get joy out of shooting an animal for no reason, if i kill an animal now a days its for a darn good reason

leadcounsel
February 12, 2010, 11:31 AM
People who kill animals for sport and fun are twisted. I know guys that go out to shoot birds, squirrels, coyotes, rabbits, etc. just to shoot and cause something pain or take its life. I unappologetically think these people need serious mental help, and they do a dis-service to gun owners everywhere.

Now, if there is a legitimate need (hunting for food for instance) then that makes sense.

But humans have foolishly driven animals to extinction or engangered their existence because of our self-centered short sighted folly.

Trago
February 12, 2010, 11:52 AM
While living in Colorado some 30 years ago, there was a popular bumper sticker that read ;eat sheep-20,000 coyotes can't be wrong, and if memory serves me right there was a 'tail' bounty on them, I think 20.00. Neighboring Utah had an 'ear bounty' for a like amount, so the shooters would make out quite well. And they were quite prolific and cagey,{ the yotes} they would follow my hay baler and go for the mice and other rodents that would scurry out. But to the topic......yes, as a retired taxidemist I can assure you first hand that many yahoos kill to kill, the most repugnant issue I recall is someone pulling into my shop at 10:30 at night while I was cleaning shop, said he had a deer in his truck he wanted 'full mounted', when I went to look, much to my disgust, and maybe an impetus to my retirement decision, in the bed of his truck, he had a little 'basket six' pointer, not even field dressed! When I told him I generally get the head and hide, after the butcher, he proceeded to tell me he had no interest in deer meat, just wanted a lifesize mount for his cabin, I blew a gasket, he beat feet, a call to the Game Co. with tag number probably did little to twart his disgusting habits, but he didn't look at all tasty so that's all I could do........................

ClayInTx
February 12, 2010, 11:58 AM
I sense that many in this thread have either a problem with the English Language or have responded to a post in haste. (A previous poster made the same comment with added comments such as I am posting here.)

Those, including me, who have stated their distaste of killing for fun have not indicated they are against killing for necessity,

Elation over a good clean shot in a hunt does not equate of itself killing merely for the fun of killing. Hunters hunt for several reasons and almost every hunter has a valid reason. Also, almost every animal hunted is of a population large enough to support hunting and that population would probably become unsustainable by nature if not hunted.

Putting food on the table is necessity.
Killing pests is a necessity.
Killing dangerous animals is a necessity.
Controlling population is a necessity.
Trophy hunting when part of needed culling or control is a necessity.

Killing for no other reason than killing for fun is sick.

Scrapperz
February 12, 2010, 12:18 PM
Man will always take precedence over animals that's just the way it is and always has been. You can make law but someone will always break it.

Hard to control the nature of man.

fisherman66
February 12, 2010, 12:18 PM
I've been lucky enough to be a long term guest of a lease. I don't get quail or turkey hunting privileges, but if a member is willing to give me a deer tag I can deer hunt and I'm always welcome to pig hunt. My FIL has been giving me a doe tag for over 10 years and we have taken several pigs too. I have been asked to shoot every coyote and skunk I see if I'm not actively hunting deer since they eat quail eggs. I've also been asked to kill every hog too regardless if I'm hunting deer due to the property damage they can inflict. I'm welcome to take it home or let it lie where it dies. I've left a couple stinky old bores. I've taken a few sows or juveniles home to eat. It's not unusual to have a nest of snakes under the hunting 5th wheel. We gas them out and kill them almost every year. As a non-paying guest I abide by the rules. The old timers are about ready to give up hunting and I won't have a free ride there anymore:(. My FIL has property to the east we will use, but they only offer two or three days a year to take a doe.

On the killing for pleasure line? I've got no beef with anyone who want to pop a 'yote/whistle pig/snake/crow ect as long as they are not breaking any game laws. I haven't always thought this way, but I have learned to be a little less judgmental about what others do. I still think killing something from many, many hundreds of yards runs counter to my way of thinking, but if it can be done without undue suffering on the part of the animal I will keep my opinion to myself.

Pittbull
February 12, 2010, 03:08 PM
around here yotes are killed on farms to clear enough of them off of specific land tracts. They cause losses in farm profits. No natural predators in lots of places. If you're in a really isolated area, rabbit hunting is pretty effective at keeping the yote numbers down. Take away their food.

45Gunner
February 12, 2010, 05:54 PM
I wasn't going to add anything further to this post, but after reading all the posts, I've decided to throw in two additional cents worth:

This is, for the most part, a very enjoyable Forum to read and participate in. I have found it to be very educational as I never stop learning. I respect each and everyone's right to their opinion and viewpoint. And therein lies my problem; this is a firearms forum and not a hunting Forum.

I'm not a tree hugger or an animal rights activist but as a current dog owner and former horse rancher, I am totally turned off by the way this post has gone. Yeah, I know I didn't have to read it but that is not the point. As a horse rancher, I had other animals (livestock) on my ranch and did lose a share of them to predators such as coyotes, racoons, fox, etc. I took whatever measures I had to take to protect my livestock. And...that is the point, I used my rifle/handgun to protect. I did not go on the hunt for the sport. If this thread had gone in the vein such as, for example, I use my AR-15 against coyotes and my ACOG scope has really paid for itself, I would say..Cool.
I hate to sound like a stick in the mud but think discussions such as this should be moved to a different Forum and future posts of this nature (no pun intended) be barred.

What say you Moderators?

Bud Helms
February 12, 2010, 06:05 PM
A different forum like The Hunt? I was about to move it there. I almost moved it there yesterday, but let it slide.

You may be using the term forum as some of us use bulletin board. TFL is a bulletin board and the topic divisions are forums (or fora ... :D ). But the usage gets mixed up a lot and it's no problem unless people don't know what you mean. I, for example, think you may mean it should be off TFL, to which I respond, I don't agree. But if you mean it should be in the hunting forum, then I do.

To which we now go ...

Uncle Buck
February 12, 2010, 08:37 PM
After re-reading some of the post and the OP's statements, I have to agree with what I think he is saying.

Like I have said, I still hunt and kill different types of predators. But I do not kill something just to say I killed it.

Like the kid with a new B-B gun, who shoots every song bird he sees, just to shoot it. The guy who shoots rabbits and leaves them in the field, or the guy who shoots ducks and then throws them away. To me, that is wrong.

If you are not going to eat what you shoot, if you are not shooting something to stop it from being a predator or doing damage, then I definitely agree with the OP.

Daryl
February 12, 2010, 09:48 PM
Just reading through a thread in another part of the forum made me wonder: Are people really afraid of coyotes, or are they just looking for quick justification to have something alive to shoot at?

Neither, actually.

I don't need justification to shoot a furbearer, and I hunt them for the challenge and the furs.

I do not fear them, nor do I hate them. In truth, I have a lot of respect for them as the cunning predators that they are, but they pose little or no threat to me. If one WERE to pose a threat to me, mine, or my animals, I have the knowledge and abilities to remove it from it's position in the food chain in a quick and humane manner, but those occurances aren't all that common.

No need in my mind to justify a legal and challenging hobby, sport, or occupation.

Daryl

wingman
February 12, 2010, 10:57 PM
Interesting thread as a older person raised on a farm in a rural area "many" years ago hunted for food and sport however I no longer do so since I do not find waiting in a deer stand to shoot a feeding deer "sporting" but I do not desire to stop those who do. All my shooting now is at paper however if I had the place to do so I would enjoy a grouse or pheasant hunt,;) still find that a challenge.

Art Eatman
February 12, 2010, 11:12 PM
I guess I look at different sorts of motivations before making a judgement.

Killing "just for the hell of it" or purely for the fun of killing is Bad News. Wrong. Killing and then wasting an edible animal is wrong. The taxidermist example is pertinent.

Enjoying the success of a kill for which there is some rational reason is IMO a normal human-nature reaction. To me, it doesn't matter what animal is involved; game, pest or predator.

I dunno why people get all exercised about Wily Coyote and want to "save" him. He's a predator, for one thing; controlling his numbers helps prey species which are of interest to us at the top of the food chain. We could include our housepets as prey items, for that matter. Unfortunately for some of us, however, coyotes have done a few attacks on children in the Tucson area, and killed a woman up in Canada not long ago.

Foreign game? Why not? Whether culling an elephant herd of dozens of the creatures, or taking a trophy which provides large amounts of cash money to the local villagers--as well as meat--no animal lives forever. No hunter does, either.

IMO, the proper mindset for a trophy is to provide a memory of the package that is a good hunt. If nothing else, it immortalizes that one particular animal well beyond any other memory about him. I can look up on the wall above this monitor at my one and only antelope and remember the people, the day, the ranch, the other wildlife--all that. But the hunt was thirteen years ago. Will folks remember YOU, thirteen years after you're dead?

banditt007
February 13, 2010, 12:10 AM
I always enjoy the posts about the coyotes eating cats, as if thats a bad thing! Cats do an incredible amount of damage to the populations of the native species of rabbits, song birds, ground birds ect. If only coyotes could just feed on outdoor cats we could kill 2 birds with one stone.

reloader28
February 13, 2010, 12:13 AM
Uncle Buck
I think that could go either way.
Bobcats dont do that much damage around here, any that I know of, and I only seen 2 brief glimpses of them. They are not really a threat ,but if I happen to get a chance to shoot one, you better believe I'm going to shoot him just to put the fur on the wall.
I dont consider myself a prick for that.


I do agree that the people that shoot only for horns and leave the meat should be strung up.
But I dont agree that these kind of people are responsible for some animals going extinct. Plain fact is there are so many people in this world that they have to go somewhere and that somewhere is into the animals territory. The animals have to move or face extinction. Its more a matter of they are losing their home and die out in my opinion. But what do you do? You cant stop the human population growth.
I know this is not always the case, but it seems like most of the time it is.

45Gunner
February 13, 2010, 12:39 AM
Bud, for clarification, it should be in the hunting forum. Far be it from me to be put in a position to prevent people from expressing their views but the subject matter is not apropos to guns. It has become an issue of whether or not it is sporting to kill animals and that goes beyond the scope of a gun discussion. I vote to move it to the proper place.

Thanks for listening to what I have to say. Stuff like this makes me feel older than I normally feel as I have seen so much destruction in life that I don't want to see it in places I like to visit and participate. And....I don't want to appear as a narrow minded old grump. I've said my piece. Take out of it what you think it's worth.

M77
February 13, 2010, 12:56 AM
I haven't read any of the previous posts so sorry if this is a repeat. Yes, I know many people who kill just to kill. Just in the past month I know of several unethical decisions made by "hunters." Examples include shooting a beaver with a 22 and leaving it dead and walking through the woods shooting into every squirrel nest with a shotgun just to get one to run out. As far as coyotes, most people in the east shoot them because they are a non-native predator. We wouldn't have this problem if there wasn't a niche to fill. With the extirpation of mountain lions and wolves, the coyote has found a very productive place to make a living. While there aren't many species that will prey in coyotes, they are most certainly controlled through natural processes (prey cycles etc.). I support those whe shoot coyotes for the reason that they are a non-native species. However, I think that people should think about the whole native vs. non-native phenomonon. The distribution of species has changed numerous times throughout history due to changing climates and other factors. Many specis that would be considered non-native at a certain place at the present time would have been found there a long time ago.

Big Bill
February 13, 2010, 02:13 AM
I shoot coyotes for the hides and only when the fur is prime. I'd never shoot a coyote just to waste it. I admire the little critters.

bamaranger
February 13, 2010, 05:51 AM
of course, there are no natural predators either on coyotes.

They seem extremely numerous, w/ tracks, scat and howling packs easily observed. Some fairly well thought out studies are indicating that areas w/ heavy coyote numbers will have reduced deer herds. A summer scat study yielded fawn hair in 80-80% of coyote scat examined. I have seen to many coyotes stalking turkey decoys and responding to my spring turkey calls not to believe they are hard on turkeys as well.

Ground hogs used to be very common in my area, but no longer. There demise is attributed to the coyote, who locate the dens and lay in wait for a chuck sandwich. People are losing pets to 'yotes, I've heard more than one story of people seeing their dog killed by a coyote pack. Anybody that raises or keeps any type of fowl on their place will be no fan of the coyote either.

It is not shooting fish in a barrel. Coyotes are slick, with tremendous nose and canine intelligence. With all the dedicated predator hunting, all the "Bubba's" blazing away when one is spotted, and no protection by any agency short of the preserves and National Parks ( they are universally labled a predator and pest by every game and fish dept I am aware of) the coyote is doing fine, w/ increasing numbers and expanded range.

BTW, though its not an absolute, I seldom see a road-killed coyote, they are way to sharp for that.

roy reali
February 13, 2010, 06:53 AM
I always enjoy the posts about the coyotes eating cats, as if thats a bad thing! Cats do an incredible amount of damage to the populations of the native species of rabbits, song birds, ground birds ect. If only coyotes could just feed on outdoor cats we could kill 2 birds with one stone.

My experience backs this up.

I used to live in the middle of a mjor California city. It has a nice river that runs through the middle of it. Along the river, miles of nature trails have been put in place. About ten years ago I got a puppy and used to go to the river trails with her for our adventures.

The first couple of years there we saw many, many feral cats. Not much else as far as wildlife went, including birds. My third year exploring this ecosystem has me seeing a coyote now and then. By the fourth year coyotes were becoming more common. In fact that spring the county posted coyote warning signs along the river. Apparently some female coyotes had nested in the area and they had become very aggressive towards dogs, even charging them when on a leash.

I also noticed an increase in the number of birds in the area. Quail coveys were becoming larger and more common. I even started to take my call there for practice. One time my calling lured a coyote of the bushes. Feral cat spottings were becoming fewer and farther between. A conversation with a park ranger confirmed my theory. The coyotes moved in, the feral cats disappeared, the birds returned.

Ain't nature wonderful?

shortwave
February 13, 2010, 08:36 AM
I`ve not read through this thread in its entirety but I did read the OP and a few reply`s.

No disrespect to the OP but would it be fair to ask if your from the city? Reason I ask this is its apparent you`ve NOT seen the distruction/killing coyotes do to livestock/wildlife if there population is not kept in check.

IMO, the title of this thread 'Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them' and the example of the coyote used in the OP`s opening comment doesn`t make sense.

I don`t know the populace of coyote in Arizona but the coyote is a problem in Ohio.

This thread reminds me of the thread a while back on shooting feral pigs in which alot of people that lived in states without a hog problem blasted those that are shooting feral hogs simply cause they(the people that don`t understand the distruction the feral hog are doing) haven`t experienced any problems.
We need to remember, a certain species of animal thats not a problem in one region may be a problem in another. Hence the next coment.



There was a reason DNR`s in many states had/has a bounty on coyote AND there`s no closed season. Along with different bag limits/legal hunting season`s on different species

As to 'killing an animal just for the sake of killing it', I don`t believe in it but in these parts the title of this thread and the example used ???

I seldom see a road-killed coyote, they are way to sharp for that

Hey bama, don`t think our yote`s here in Ohio are that sharp. I see (on the average) 1-2 every month or so.
Course if you do much driving here you`ll understand many driver`s aren`t that sharp either. hehe.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2010, 09:41 AM
Banditt007, coyotes eating cats in the boonies is indeed a good thing. However, coyotes eating Fluffy Poo-tat in a residential yard is a different matter entirely.

L_Killkenny
February 13, 2010, 11:16 AM
Banditt007, coyotes eating cats in the boonies is indeed a good thing. However, coyotes eating Fluffy Poo-tat in a residential yard is a different matter entirely.

I might agree with your Art if it wasn't for the fact you're talking about CATS! Yuck! Them and little foo-foo dogs. Let the coyotes have em. :)

LK

Art Eatman
February 13, 2010, 07:01 PM
Well, Kilkenny, it's not important if you or I like or dislike cats. I hate to see some kid's eyes when he figures out that a favorite pet is gone.

My dislike for little yap-dogs is insignificant, compared to the companionship felt by some little old lady.

longlane
February 13, 2010, 07:41 PM
Here in the SE, you can hardly even get a wildlife officer/National Forest Ranger to admit coyotes are even here. I assure you, as someone who has been woken up by a pack of over 10 outside my window (and fence), they are breeding like rabbits and have no natural predators here. Our deer population is indeed going down, and farmers have tried to report attacks on fawns and domesticated critters too (ex. calves) witnessed first hand during field work, but, of course, we're too stupid and guv'mint folks are too smart to ever believe us common citizens. People have been attacked in their suburban yards here. They're showing up in Charlotte, NC, and even Central Park in NYC. Um, it might be time to admit populations are booming nationwide, but, then again, what do I know? I'm not an enlightened city dweller :D

m.p.driver
February 13, 2010, 07:53 PM
Haven't actually been hunting in years,used to love to go rabbit and squirrel hunting.Grouse,pheasant and quail nothing better.
However i have recently shot feral cats,dogs and coydogs.I don't consider that hunting ,its taking care of a problem.The rabbit population dwindled because of the feral cats,and lost several calf's to the dogs.
Do i get enjoyment out of it,no its just something that has to be done.Do i feel bad,no i feel pi**ed off at the people that dump their animals off on the side of the road and have to fend for themselves.

Big Bill
February 13, 2010, 08:42 PM
m.p. - I hear ya man. When I lived in the country a few years ago, we had dogs and cats dropped off at the rate of about three every week. The county wouldn't take them at the pound or do anything about the situation. So, between the neighbors and me we used loads of 22 shells cleaning up the problem. At the time I had sheep and goats and some expensive big game hounds and couldn't take any chances of disease transfer to my hounds or wanton killing of my flock.

One side note about cats: Why do people who live in town just let their cats run free? People with cats should be just a respectful of their neighbors as people with dogs are. I hate other people's cats in my yard. And, BTW, Art most of those little old ladies you're talking about have 15 or 20 cats hanging around that they feed and then don't take care of them otherwise. So, that the feral cats multiply without restraint.

Uncle Buck
February 14, 2010, 09:31 AM
Some people have no concept of what hunting is (and it is all different to all of us) and they want to sit in judgement of others.

I have neighbors that moved in from the city. All wildlife is "Pretty" to them, and they must spend a couple of hundred bucks a month feeding them critters.
They take a 10 pound bag of cat food and just tear it open and leave it on their porch for the cats, coons and what-ever else happens to come in. When they forget to feed the critters, they come wandering over to my place.

I was talking to a local conservation officer and he said he had talked to them before about feeding the feral and wild animals. There is a river running through their property and the wildlife follow it. There is a college about 10 miles from my place and when college lets out, there is a definite increase in the cat population.

A/C Guy
February 14, 2010, 05:13 PM
Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.The funny part is that he isn't form the northeast, he is from Tucson, Az.
If he would come up to Phoenix and I can show him our coyote population is way out of control. If he hunted quail, he would know the coyotes are decimating the quail population around the state.

zahnzieh
February 14, 2010, 09:34 PM
When was the last time you saw a coyote hit by a car? They are far too intelligent to get hit unless sick, wounded etc.. No. their population is out of control, attacking livestock, pets and spreading disease. A friend of mine lost a german shepard to a pair of coyotes! I have to say they also keep the feral cat population down in urban areas (another out of control predator). I wish snares were legal in a lot more states, easier than leg-hold traps. In wild places they are not necessarily out of control, it is in metro-fringe areas where the real problem is, they eat garbage, cats, wildlife because of them being the oppurtunists that they are.

knoxville
February 14, 2010, 10:15 PM
we all just need to realize that is us hunters and you.... non hunters or animal activist or whomever else is replying on here but we need to just face the facts that no matter how much we argue we're not going to change anyones minds, beliefs or actions and its a waste of or time, energy and efforts as long as we have or guns we'll do what we do and you can all get together and talk about how you are against it.

Art Eatman
February 15, 2010, 09:03 AM
zahnzieh, it's a rare trip on I-10 from Tallahassee to Fort Stockton that I DON'T see at least one or two dead coyotes alongside the road.

Anybody from Tucson should know of the news reports of a couple of attacks on small children, as well as the commonplace killing of pets.

longlane
February 15, 2010, 09:34 AM
zahnzieh: Actually, it's interesting that you would ask. Driving from central SC to northeastern NC, I noted two in my last drive. From central SC to central NC, I noted one between Charlotte and Greensboro. All three of these were in relatively rural locales--all on I-85 too... The coyote carcasses were in the median in each situation.

XD Gunner
February 15, 2010, 10:03 AM
But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deaths. Cougars eat coyotes.

Really? Well that's good to know, except we don't have Cougars in SE Kentucky. Their population is NOT controlled. It was said earlier in the thread, they are like rats and will populate until their food source is gone. Their food source being small farm animals.

birdshot
February 15, 2010, 01:57 PM
on my last road trip, an iron butt, i tallied road kill, from nebraska to corpus christi: coyotes were only slightly edged out by racoons which numbered around 60.

L_Killkenny
February 15, 2010, 02:03 PM
A lot of the statements here against shooting critters like coyotes is much the same as was being said about the Mountain Lions in CA a few years ago. City dwellers and many in the country thought that because they never saw em it meant they weren't many around and thus needed protected. Now in CA. they have a problem and they are arguing with the bunny huggers over the best way to solve it. Meanwhile, many others are just performing the three S's and going about life.

Coyotes left unchecked are a problem and many times they are still a problem even in areas of high hunting pressure. Once you have coyotes in your area it's 100% impossible to remove them completely, If you don't want to believe this there is nothing I can do to change you mind. Maybe when a yote takes fluffy you will change your mind as many in CA> are doing about the Mountain Lions.

LK

Wrothgar
February 15, 2010, 05:06 PM
I'm no "northeastern lib" like you all will think I am; I'm from Oklahoma and have lived in Texas for 8 years.

I grew up with plenty of people that went out shooting animals because it gave them pleasure to kill something.

That said, I understand how coyotes can be pests and kill livestock and I've seen firsthand the damage that pigs can do. However, people should be aware that there are people out there that get itty bitty stiffies from shooting animals.

Wrothgar
February 15, 2010, 05:14 PM
Nickanto
Member

Join Date: January 13, 2009
Posts: 32

I shoot yotes because it's fun and it's legal. There are plenty of them. Any questions?

Yeah, see, to me this IS a sick person. There should be no joy in killing. I tend to take the Native American perspective to hunting/killing; do it when necessary, and never take joy/pleasure in it, but give thanks instead.

2damnold4this
February 15, 2010, 06:32 PM
Do you hunt, Wrothgar?

Wrothgar
February 15, 2010, 08:02 PM
I haven't had the opportunity to but I want to (I don't have the opportunity to as I am newly married and she is still in school so I'm kind of still supporting both of us and we don't have any land.). I also don't have anywhere to put a deer, as all we have is a tiny refrigerator in our apartment. I have taken my hunter's safety course.

What I have also done, however, is killed and gutted a fish, so I obviously have no problem killing something... if it is not going to waste. I've also shot turtles in a pond(when I was young/growing up we had land) as they were eating ducks and fish. I got no joy from it, as I find turtles fascinating and had a pet turtle as a kid. It most certainly did not make me feel good about myself, nor did I find it "fun".

Bolosniper
February 16, 2010, 12:45 PM
It is always the people that don't deal with a problem that see no problem, and coyote and wolf predation is a major problem here in SW Montana. The major, and almost the only, industry in SW Montana is cattle ranching and most of the Western Angus beef most of you buy at the grocery store comes from here. It is a financial disaster for a rancher to lose a large number of calves over the course of a winter which is calving season. I won't even start on the wolf problem as this thread is about coyotes.

Anyone who has hunted either animal has found that they aren't easy to get a sight picture on, and it is most certainly not like "shooting fish in a barrel". In this area the coyotes are very educated and most will not respond to a caller. In fact most of the time calling or using an electronic caller is counter productive as they have learned that it is probably a hunter and vamoose the AO quickly.

Most of my shots on coyotes are at medium (500 yards) to long range only, and are taken at sunrise or sunset depending on the moon phase. I scout for sign (tracks) in the most likely avenue of approach to the dinner they hope to get, and then set up to catch them en-route from their den to the dinner table. My sets are all on cattle ranches and are among the cattle as that is where you find the bastards. They eat the afterbirth and the calves, and as pointed out by someone else in this thread, will attack a cow in the middle of giving birth to take the calf when the cow is virtually helpless. I have seen a number of new born calf carcasses that have accidentally been stomped by the mother trying to defend the calf from coyotes or wolves also.

Coyotes are the most adaptable predator on the face of this planet and are the only predator that you will find coexisting in a built up urban or even a city environment. I have seen coyotes in broad daylight in a city or in the suburbs walking around like a stray dog going from trash can to dumpster looking for a meal, and the residents of the area not even aware that the animal isn't a dog! The last time I witnessed that was in the Southside of Chicago at 103rd Street and Damen Avenue. The batsard was walking through a field by a liquor store and there was a crowd of people hanging out there that were totally oblivious to the animal which was no further than 50 to 75 yards from them, and again IN BROAD DAYLIGHT! He trotted across the field and entered an alley behind a restaurant and went straight for the dumpster as if he owned the place.

Art Eatman
February 16, 2010, 12:55 PM
"The coyote is a survivor,
I reckon he's got to be;
Lives in the snow at 40 below,
And in Malibu-by-the-sea..."

Ian Tyson

The Tourist
February 16, 2010, 01:02 PM
Bolosniper, I see a world of difference between your righteous endeavors and those of "thrill killers."

There are numerous 'hunters' who truck thousands of varmint rounds to South Dakota just to see pieces of animals fly apart.

Contrast that to hunter safety courses and responsible management of ducks and whitetail dear. Would a person schooled from these ranks go fishing with dynamite?

In Wisconsin, we call those guys "slob hunters." They'll cut a fence and trespass while they're whining about their rights. They excuse their abuses by implying that anyone who eats meat and derides their conduct must be a hypocrite.

Wrothgar
February 16, 2010, 01:12 PM
What Tourist said.

Brian Pfleuger
February 16, 2010, 01:13 PM
Bolosniper, I see a world of difference between your righteous endeavors and those of "thrill killers."

There are numerous 'hunters' who truck thousands of varmint rounds to South Dakota just to see pieces of animals fly apart.

Contrast that to hunter safety courses and responsible management of ducks and whitetail dear. Would a person schooled from these ranks go fishing with dynamite?

In Wisconsin, we call those guys "slob hunters." They'll cut a fence and trespass while they're whining about their rights. They excuse their abuses by implying that anyone who eats meat and derides their conduct must be a hypocrite.


You are tying together two entirely unrelated behaviors. One is legal and responsible, the other illegal and irresponsible.

I have great fun shooting woodchucks. I do NOTHING with them besides drop them in a hole. I laugh when they explode. Iv'e never shot a prairie dog but I would gladly do so with 1000s of rounds of ammunition and laugh while doing it.

I have NEVER cut a fence and trespassed. I have never left a property in worse condition than I found it. I am NOT a "slob hunter" and I resent the implication that I am one simply because I kill animals that I don't eat.

Your "contrast" of hunting prairie dogs versus hunters safety courses and management programs is a non-starter. There is nothing unsafe about shooting prairie dogs and there is no violation of "game management" ideals. There is a hardly a shortage of crop destroying, animal injuring equipment damaging rodents in this world.

Wrothgar
February 16, 2010, 01:15 PM
Anyone who "laughs" while killing something is a sicko, at least in my book. I understand your desire to control pests, but killing should not be a pleasure. It should only be done as necessary.

Brian Pfleuger
February 16, 2010, 01:20 PM
Anyone who "laughs" while killing something is a sicko, at least in my book. I understand your desire to control pests, but killing should not be a pleasure. It should only be done as necessary.


I'm not laughing at the killing. I'm laughing at the "spectacle". How am I any less moral if I use only a gun that does minimal damage? That's just makes no sense. I laugh at the results not at the "killing".



"should"

"should not"

"necessary"


Say who?

Wrothgar
February 16, 2010, 01:28 PM
It's just nothing I would ever find enjoyable, even "the spectacle". I dunno, if I ever flipped a deer with my Mauser, I would probably be proud of myself for such a well placed shot, but I would be more proud that I dropped the animal with minimal suffering. I understand that's what you're doing by sending guts flying, but still, laughing?

And while prairie dogs are not going extinct, their numbers have dropped drastically in the last 100 years. They do damage crops (after asking my cotton farming in-laws in West Texas) but they also keep range land open for cattle, leaving grass for the cattle while eating other plants that cattle don't eat.

Brian Pfleuger
February 16, 2010, 01:39 PM
I understand that's what you're doing by sending guts flying, but still, laughing?

Yep.

I laugh when I shoot balloons that explode too.... and soda cans, cans of paint, apples, pumpkins and grapefuit too.... lots of stuff.

Same effect. Same laugh.

Where's the moral police for the paint cans?

Wrothgar
February 16, 2010, 01:48 PM
paint cans aren't alive.

HiBC
February 16, 2010, 02:01 PM
Food has gotten so expensive I mostly eat it,and I love grapefruit,but,darn they make a nice target!!!No objectionable litter,and that explosion in the scope!!!
Sorry,I understand the ideology,and respect the concept behind it,but it is a bit like saying sex is only for making babies and we really are not supposed to enjoy it.
Few folks go to the field with blanks.
I like the thump of a solid hit.I like an instant kill.
I am honest enough to say so.I will not posture the politically correct response for approval.
When the rancher says"Would you shoot some of those prairie dogs for me?"
I do not hang my head ,shed a tear,and sigh,"Oh,if I must"

I get a big smile,Say"Well,Yeah!!!" and I have a lot of fun killing prairie dogs.

You think what you want.

running iron
February 16, 2010, 02:06 PM
As a retired Marine, I take no pleasure in killing and have not hunted in many years but agree with the fact that, if done correctly, is a source of game management. As far as varmints go, they are a valuable source of food for many other species. I enjoy watching a eagle or hawk swoop down on a prairie dog and is far better IMO, than me shooting it for FUN. As far a coyotes, if they are messing with your livestock, you better shoot them. Other wise, the Government pays other people to kill them when and where they need to be thinned out, like to protect the Antelope. They know best, at least better than me, how many need to be killed. I live in the mountains and see these morons from the city come up here to shoot things with no regard for where their bullets go. It's amazing to see how ignorant they are and how unsafe. It's a wonder more people aren't killed by mistake. Any one that thinks it's fun to splatter some creature's guts all over the dirt needs to have some one trying to do the same to them and see if it's still fun. You know, even out the odds a little. Killing for fun is just macho B.S. and is cowardly when the thing you are shooting has no chance at all.

BGutzman
February 16, 2010, 02:07 PM
In my family if you shoot it you eat it, the only exceptions are skunks and porcupine.

Brian Pfleuger
February 16, 2010, 02:36 PM
paint cans aren't alive.

Who gets to decide how, when and why that matters?

HiBC
February 16, 2010, 03:05 PM
The old ranch I hunt prairie dogs on never had any prairie dogs till some morons decided to build houses toward the foothills.A prairie dog town was in their way,so just like the folks who dump dogs and cats in the country,the PDs were vacuumed out of their holes and transplanted to some city owned ground near the ranch.The PDs like the ranch better.

The PDs do not create grassy areas.They strip the ground to bare earth.

The rancher balances the idea of having a controlled PD town through shooting,or using bubble gum and poison to eliminate all the PDs.

Hawks,eagles??I like them ,too.I don't shoot the burrowing owls among the PD's.either.
But the harsh reality is,if this town takes too much from the rancher,it will be poisoned.

I also do not shoot white spots on cliffs.Eagles make white spots below their nests.

Folks,even putting houses in the mountains or foothills pushes deer and moutain lions and coyotes into the edges of the city,where they get in trouble..

With all due respect to all veterans,(I am not a veteran) I have seen footage of troops reacting to a sniper being taken out by a missle,or a successful sniper shot,or a chain gun delivering effective fire,or night vision images of a gunship eliminating folks.and those guys reacted like the home team scored a touchdown.

I suspect when a lion takes down a wildebeast they feel good about it.

When I killed the bear that bit my wife, something happened.Maybe all the adrenaline/fear/fight/flight juices had to transform so I wouldn't explode,but something powerful happened.It felt good.

I'm not an LEO,but,despite the fact a politically correct,traumatized face has to be put on an LEO who makes an appropriate shoot,I suspect when a really bad guy goes down and the LEO gets to go home to his family,the LEO feels good about it.

You all,do whatever is true for you.I will do what is true for me.

Magnum Mike
February 16, 2010, 03:11 PM
Forgive me! Because I do get enjoyment out of shooting rats too!

Wrothgar
February 16, 2010, 03:13 PM
peetzakilla
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Quote:
paint cans aren't alive.
Who gets to decide how, when and why that matters?

I'm not saying anyone should. I am going to say that we are going to disagree on this, and you're going to say what you say and I'm going to say what I say.

Wrothgar
February 16, 2010, 03:15 PM
As a retired Marine, I take no pleasure in killing and have not hunted in many years but agree with the fact that, if done correctly, is a source of game management. As far as varmints go, they are a valuable source of food for many other species. I enjoy watching a eagle or hawk swoop down on a prairie dog and is far better IMO, than me shooting it for FUN. As far a coyotes, if they are messing with your livestock, you better shoot them. Other wise, the Government pays other people to kill them when and where they need to be thinned out, like to protect the Antelope. They know best, at least better than me, how many need to be killed. I live in the mountains and see these morons from the city come up here to shoot things with no regard for where their bullets go. It's amazing to see how ignorant they are and how unsafe. It's a wonder more people aren't killed by mistake. Any one that thinks it's fun to splatter some creature's guts all over the dirt needs to have some one trying to do the same to them and see if it's still fun. You know, even out the odds a little. Killing for fun is just macho B.S. and is cowardly when the thing you are shooting has no chance at all.
I'm going to agree with this guy, except I anticipate feeding my family by hunting one of these days when we have land to feed them from.

Brian Pfleuger
February 16, 2010, 05:44 PM
I'm not saying anyone should. I am going to say that we are going to disagree on this, and you're going to say what you say and I'm going to say what I say.

Well, now, wait a minute. We aren't "disagreeing". You said that laughing about killing things makes me a "sicko". That's not a disagreement, it's a character judgement. If you're going to make that judgement then it would be helpful to have it defined in some sensible way.

Paint cans aren't alive. They're fine to "kill" and laugh about it.

What about spiders? I kill them because my wife is scared of them. No other reason.

Grass is alive. What if I enjoy mowing my lawn? Am I a sicko?

Is it only "animal" life? What about bacteria? Is it only vertebrates? Can I light an ant hill on fire and laugh or does that make me a sicko?

What if I bow hunt for fish and "Ooh and Aah" when a good shot is made? Is that enjoyment of the kill?

What if I shoot flys that land on my target and think it's fun?

This gets pretty complicated.... seems almost like there should be solid rules or something.

Art Eatman
February 16, 2010, 06:30 PM
Opinion does not equal truth, nor does repetition of it create fact.

Enuf.