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cold dead hands
November 30, 2007, 08:47 PM
Is this a viable concept?

The Canuck
November 30, 2007, 10:00 PM
I would respectfully point out that if you are going to mount OC spray cannister on your pistol's rail, you will already be pointing a firearm at him.
If you are pointing a firearm at him it is to stop him, not season him! :D

cold dead hands
November 30, 2007, 11:05 PM
Your point is well taken, but I was thinking that we are supposed to shoot to stop, not kill.

Shoot him once, and while he is in shock from that one shot, nail him with the ''seasoning'', thus completely rendering him unable to further to attack and have a hard time escaping (that stuff makes it real hard to see), making it possible for the cops to take him to the hospital and then jail.

Obviously you are going to shoot him (with lead) more than once if the first shot didn't work.

I was mostly thinking this would be great for home use. You may be able to incapacitate the intruder and hold him at bay while the cops come. Blood is harder to clean up than pepper spray. Not to mention that you still have the option of shooting easily because you are already on target. Your would be attacker is going to shocked as all get out (because you do have a real firearm trained on him) when you pepper him instead of shoot him. You have the option of telling him that the next shot will be lead and he had better call 911 if wants to save his life.

It's just an idea.

The Canuck
November 30, 2007, 11:38 PM
Problem is if your discharging OC in an enclosed space you may well subject yourself to it as well when the cloud fills out the room. Best bet is to put your money into training time and ammo.

joab
December 1, 2007, 12:03 AM
Problem is if your discharging OC in an enclosed space you may well subject yourself to it as well when the cloud fills out the roomThis is an aspect of pepper spray that most are not aware of or do not fully understand

I bought a can of the sticky foam pepper spray for work but failed to see the instructions that it could not be used on animals
Misuse of chemicals is a license revoking offense in my work

I decided to give it to my wife but wanted to test it out first

While sitting in the reading room I sprayed a quick spurt into the bathtub
In a very short time I could feel minor effects of the pepper, but being fully committed to what i was doing at the time I could not leave immediately
By the time I did my eyes were irritated and my nose was starting to run a little

If I had had to use a full shot of that stuff in a confined space I would have been almost as disabled as my target would have been

BillCA
December 1, 2007, 12:13 AM
OC sprays are intended for situations where less-than lethal force is called for. The mouthy horse's behind who wants to pick a fight, for instance.

Your firearm is lethal force and to remove it from its holster you should be "in fear for your life", not merely "in fear of bodily injury" such as a fist-fight.

If you want a dual-purpose weapon, get one of the flashlights that also has a pepper-spray dispenser inside.

cold dead hands
December 1, 2007, 01:17 AM
Problem is if your discharging OC in an enclosed space you may well subject yourself to it as well when the cloud fills out the room

I didn't know it made a cloud. I thought it came out in stream like you would get from a water pistol.

Your firearm is lethal force and to remove it from its holster you should be "in fear for your life", not merely "in fear of bodily injury" such as a fist-fight.

That is why I came up with the idea. You are in fear for your life but attempting incapacitate your attacker and flee. I would prefer to blind and run than have to shoot given the option.

But the main idea was home use. If someone is in your house and you live in a state that has no castle doctrine (and maybe a real anti gun zealous D.A.) and are required to retreat this gives you an option. It is hard for an attacker to chase someone when they can't see. You still retain your firearm in case you have no choice but to shoot.

Oh well, like I said it was just an idea. This would be a not so good one is all.

joab
December 1, 2007, 08:23 AM
I didn't know it made a cloud. I thought it came out in stream like you would get from a water pistol.It does but the fumes from the spray will quickly fill an enclosed space
[QUOTE]

bigghoss
December 1, 2007, 10:57 AM
I think youd be better off getting less-lethal rounds in a shotgun

Jay1958
December 1, 2007, 12:12 PM
Here is an excerpt from the concealed carry training material that is provided by the state in which I reside and which issued my concealed carry permit:

"A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another only if:
(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault and
(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force was necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, and
(c) The person using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, and
(d) Force used was not excessive - greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor.

So "in fear of bodily injury" depends upon where you live, and depending on where you live, how great the perceived threat of the extent of possible bodily injury.

Personally, I'm glad the state that I live in and that issued my permit doesn't have a law that says something like:

"unless the attacker displays a deadly weapon such as a modern firearm or a knife with a huge blade (ie. machete or sword), and you feel reasonably sure that the only possible way for you to have a snowballs chance in Hades of surviving is to kill the attacker, then you are required to run like Hades or wait and see if the force and method which the attacker brings to bear does indeed result in your death."

Your firearm is lethal force and to remove it from its holster you should be "in fear for your life", not merely "in fear of bodily injury" such as a fist-fight.

joab
December 1, 2007, 04:04 PM
So "in fear of bodily injury" depends upon where you live, and depending on where you live, how great the perceived threat of the extent of possible bodily injury.

Your ability to articulate reasonable fear is more important than either, no matter what state you live in

Silentarmy
December 1, 2007, 04:14 PM
If authorized by the threat level to use force to the point of using a firearm, "Shoot to stop" means to stop the threat. It is not PC to say shoot to kill but I was trained Shoot to stop the threat, shoot to stop the action, shoot to stop any future lawsuits by a wounded moron with a hole in his arm or leg who didn't get any $$ from you the first time so now he is back with an attorney for a second Holdup! LEO may be able to use such a tool Weapon- mounted spray but the general citizen would be way out of line and you have also just created a Major holstering issue that pretty much rules out concealability.

Erik
December 1, 2007, 08:56 PM
Lest we forget, "shooting to stop" means applying lethal force with a firearm.

Meriam's defines it htus:
1le·thal
Pronunciation: \ˈlē-thəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin letalis, lethalis, from letum death
Date: circa 1604
1 a: of, relating to, or causing death <death by lethal injection> b: capable of causing death <lethal chemicals>
2: gravely damaging or destructive : devastating <a lethal attack on his reputation>
3: very potent or effective <a lethal fastball>; also : having a high alcohol content <a lethal rum punch>

The criminal justice system, depending on how politically correct it is in a given local, typically defines it to mean force causing death or serious bodily injury and/or death. Even the lawyered definition is rather to the point.

Which means that you aren't changing minds at the instance of trigger pull, people, you are shooting them with the expectation of their trip to the ER, the morgue, or both.

Stating otherwise, besides likely contradicting applicable statutes, is a bit dishonest when it gets down to it.

superfast61821
December 1, 2007, 09:05 PM
Yes OC cross contaminates and lasts and lasts. I once fired a little into a solo cup out side the sancuary at church seemed harmless at the time. I just wanted to smell it. Well it was a fog and not only did i smell it but every one else walking out as church ended was coughing and rubbing thier eyes. I also once AD/ND in my wifes car Twice at one time the seat belt device depressed the button and whoosh. to this day if you smack the seat or arm rests you get that burning itching feeling. And that was good stuff MAce brand OC CN or CS stuffs wicked.

Double Naught Spy
December 1, 2007, 10:36 PM
Given the few problems of officers drawing and firing their pistols instead of the tasers they meant to draw, I would be inclined to believe that putting pepperspray on a gun would be even more likely to result in the discharge of the wrong weapon.

ISC
December 1, 2007, 10:52 PM
If you pull a gun on someone you better be prepared to shoot them.

If you shoot someone, you better be prepared to kill them. The legal risks and costs of dealing with a surviving attacker are horrendous. Do you have time to spend weeks or months of your life dealing with his trial and worrying about him and his buddies coming after you for revenge. If you are justified in pulling the trigger, kill him dead.

There ia also the risk that in your effort to incapacitate someone, you only hobbled him and gave him time to seek cover, get his own weapon and then open up on you and your companions.

kill him.

Pull the trigger and keep pulling the trigger until he is down on the ground and not moving.

Crimp
December 1, 2007, 11:05 PM
Is this a viable concept?

Only for mall ninjas.

springmom
December 2, 2007, 12:42 AM
No, this is not a viable concept.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of whether OC spray can backfire on you, I'm most concerned by what is suggested in this comment:

That is why I came up with the idea. You are in fear for your life but attempting incapacitate your attacker and flee. I would prefer to blind and run than have to shoot given the option.


I certainly respect and applaud your desire to have more than one option. You are absolutely right to think about a variety of options, and a whole lot of folks who carry firearms also carry OC, me included. But...if you are in fear for your life, and I'm assuming we're talking a real threat here, then the time for OC spray is already gone. If you're still looking for a less-lethal option when the BG is ready to take you out, you are at a serious disadvantage.

You might find a self defense class to be good money and time spent.

Springmom

birddseedd
September 9, 2014, 10:51 AM
to the guy that said this would be acceptable for police officers but not civilians, why are police officers, who are carying for their own safety, held to a different standard than other citizens.

to the guy that mentioned to keep firing until they are dead, there are a lot of problems and holes in your theory. If you shoot somebody in the arm and they are able to get cover then perhaps they would be able to draw a weapon, but in that case you have not stopped the threat and you keep firing until you fire a shot that will stop them. as far as getting a good shot that does indeed stop them and they are laying there alive but unable to attack you, and you keep firing at that point it is murder.

my reason for thinking about this concept was so I would not have to carry two devices. But the problem that I find with this is that if you are willing and able to use pepper spray to stop a threat, then you are not in the type of danger that warrants the use of a firearm. But now you are in effect pulling a firearm. you have now escalated the situation. Now if you have to pull the trigger, you are the aggressor continuing the conflict.

I like the idea of the pepper spray flashlight combo, can anyone recommend a product

Frank Ettin
September 9, 2014, 11:19 AM
This long dead thread was not worth resurrecting.