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View Full Version : Your guns just got taken...


cold dead hands
November 25, 2007, 06:32 PM
You have all seen at least on movie or t.v. show where some cop holding has badge confiscates some poor schmoes car to chase the bad guys.

What if local LEO knew you had a fairly decent collection of guns and ammo and they for what ever reason needed them. Could they legally make you arm them?

Would you do it voluntarily or would have to threaten to kick your dog or something like that?

44 AMP
November 25, 2007, 08:04 PM
During the North Hollywood bank robbery, with the bad guys wearing (homemade?) body armor, and the cops 9mms not being able to bring them down, they went to a local gun store and "borrowed" some AR-15s. Gun shop owners apparently had no trouble with this, even though it technically violated CA law (unless there was an exception for LEOs which I don't know about).

I think it would be a tough call, because the only realistic reason the cops might need your guns is that there are some really bad dudes out there who need to be stopped NOW. And if that is the case, what civic minded citizen could rightly say no?

I find it hard to imagine a situation where there is both a need and the cops not having what they need for arms, AND knowing that you do. Many depts today have AR-15s, and unless you are a big Full Auto collector and have a barn full of belt feds, what are you going to have that the police already don't have access to? And if the police need belt feds to manage the situation, better call out the militia and the regular military.

Now, there may be a time when, while they do have heavier weapons, they don't have them with them, and borrowing from you (assuming you have any), might be faster, and faster in a situation that critical can mean lives. So, I think the obvious situation would be to say to the cops, "Fine, deputize me, and I'll start loading up!" This doesn't mean I expect you or me to do a dynamic entry or anything like that, but by being deputized, you have a duty (and a right) to be on the scene, and you should function in an advisory role. Because, if you have something the cops don't, that means that they haven't trained with it, and likely don't know how to best use it, and you do. So, not only do you get to keep an eye on your hardware, you are in the position of actually trying to help. This makes you a "good guy" and will likely do some good when things settle down, and you try to get your stuff back. If they view you as "one of us", there is a significantly reduced probability of your weapons being "lost", held as evidence, or some other BS delays in them being returned.

Actually I find this a rather unlikely scenario, as the cops will much more likely go to a gun shop, or even a dept store to get "emergency supplies" before they come to your house. And in any local where such stores are not to be found (like inner city areas), it is even less likely that there will be a civilian, with legally owned weapons of the kind and type the police would need. And even if there were, the odds of the officers on the scene having that information seem pretty small, at least to me.

There maybe a crack house at the end of the block just chock full of illegal ARs and AKs, Uzis and Macs, but I don't see the cops asking to borrow them, first because they wouldn't know (for sure) they were there, and second, the residents of said crack house likely would not take such a request well. They might even resist, and if they have the kind of firepower the cops already need and do not have, well, now the cops have 2 major problems instead of just one. Only thing I can see coming out of that kind of situation is political pundits in and out of uniform calling for more gun control, while standing over the caskets of officers who were "just trying to make the streets safe".

shield20
November 25, 2007, 08:17 PM
I would volunteer a couple I think. I would assume I may not get them back for a bit. No way would they get everything I own. I also would be apt to request a vest and "go in with them" if they needed it (keeping my best arms for me!) depending on the situation (i.e a shooters at the school where my kid goes, though that would be a stretch re:my guns at home).

George Hill
November 25, 2007, 08:49 PM
All the cops around here know they can count on me for any help they need, that includes weapons and ammunition.

Ahem, they also know I expect them to be cleaned when returned, and ammunition used to be replaced in kind.

BerettaCougar
November 25, 2007, 08:54 PM
Every police officer or deputy I know has a backup handgun on them, a shotgun in the car and an AR15 in the trunk.

All except for one, he has a .308 bolt action Savage rifle with powerful scope. (Sharp shooter for SRT)

cold dead hands
November 25, 2007, 09:32 PM
Just as a (probably bad) example:

You get a banging on your door to discover a very excited looking officer who anxiously asks if you own guns. You ask why he needs to know. He says there are 500 (pick your favorite violent criminal group) who are looting, raping, killing and real back up (like the Army) is still 10 minutes away. The police on the scene have used all ammo and resupply cannot get to them.
You and any of your neighbors are desperately needed to to provide arms and and ammo. Given the circumstances you will be deputized because not all cops know guns like "we gun lovers" do. Every minute between the now and the Army showing up means more carnage.

It is just a hypothetical situation, so don't get too into it.

Let it Bleed
November 25, 2007, 10:37 PM
Don't forget space aliens and zombies. :rolleyes:

Where do you come up with this stuff. :confused:

44 AMP
November 25, 2007, 10:55 PM
If I had ammo in the cop's caliber, I would give him some. And then hunker down praying I could hold my position until relief shows up. Those odds are beyond anything a small group of individuals could manage without a serious disparity in the level of armament and position between the sides.

If you are postulating a Roarke's Drift situation, with 500 near naked spear chuckers vs a handful of riflemen (with single shots) fighting from a defensive position, maybe. But add even remotely modern weaponry into the mix, and the defenders odds go down pretty rapidly. The old military rule is one man behind a wall is equal to 3 men attacking. BUT, that doesn't take modern weapons into account, AND, even if it did, you still face really stiff odds.

It is the job of the police to do their best to maintain order, but I don't think their contract or their sense of civic duty requires them to commit suicide. Likewise, deputized or not, not too many citizens will join the attemp to "restore order" if the situation is as bad as you describe. 500 Mutant Biker Zombies (or whatever) tearing up downtown, and the cops have shot off all their ammo without controlling the situation? Resupply them, and wish them good luck if they head back to do battle. Me, I would start gathering the militia (if there is any chance of such a thing), so we could defend our homes and families (if it looked like bugging out was not a viable option). And I think making the strongest argument practical to convince the (now rearmed) officerst to stay and help defent the local area, leaving the forlorn hope to the military, who are on their way.

If we could muster even a fifth of the "enemy" force (100 armed citizens), then taking the fight to them might be a viable option, but without anything close to those numbers, defense is the only responsible (and sane) alternative. If the Army is 10 minutes out, we couldn't get it together to attack before the professionals get there anyway. And I would really hate getting gunned down by a scared 19 year old's M16 (M4?) because he thought I was one of the bad guys, as it is bound to be a very confused situation (and I rather think we are not talking about this happening in broad daylight either?)

Flee or stay and prepare in case the bad guys get to you. Anything else is for the movies, and I'm too old and fat to be Norris/Schwartzenegger/Willis, even in my dreams. Besides, I have a semi-invalid wife of many years. Not a whole lot of options, but everbody dies sometime. We may go down, but it won't be alone.

Any other ideas?

cold dead hands
November 25, 2007, 10:55 PM
LIB,

It comes from that place I like to call insanity. Who said every discussion here had to be serious. The only things I take seriously is the eroson of my liberty and being a good father. All else is fair game in my mind. Your just mad because you didn't ask it first:D

44,

I personally would probably hunker down too if my kids were with me. If they weren't with me (they live a short distance away due to divorce) and in the path of destruction I am going to arm up as best I can and at least die trying to save them or maybe actually survive and save them. Not everyone dies in a war.

Like I said, this is hypothetical. Don't get to excited over it.

Al Norris
November 26, 2007, 09:08 AM
Hypotheticals, of this kind, belong in Tactics and Training. Off we go.....

Tanzer
November 26, 2007, 04:30 PM
This is a super-duper hyper-hypothetical situation. But if I hear the sirens blaring, and a bloody, beaten up cop knocks on my door, he doesn't need to ask twice. If it's a bright sunny day, and the birds are chirping, one cop shows up, his radio is silent etc, I'd say; "Where's the candid camera? You guys are a load of laughs". BTW - NO ONE threatens my dogs.

Don P
November 26, 2007, 05:24 PM
They get nothing, even if they were to let me tag along with my tin foil hat!:cool:

htshot
November 26, 2007, 05:25 PM
Yes I would give him one after a backround check and a 3 day waiting period. Can't be to careful.

RedneckFur
November 26, 2007, 06:16 PM
My guns are for my protection. I learned in the legal and political forum that the officer is not there to protect me. I dont see why he needs my gun. :confused:

Neal in GA
November 27, 2007, 02:46 PM
I'd loan out a gun or two as long as I was allowed to go as well. If the situation was that bad, they would need the help. I would have gotten a phone call anyway as I'm in a National Guard infantry unit and my unit currently has the mission of being the Quick Reactionary Force for the state of GA.

TexasSeaRay
November 27, 2007, 03:15 PM
No way in hell.

Jeff

Perldog007
November 27, 2007, 03:26 PM
What guns? we eat tofu for crying out loud!

rampage841512
November 27, 2007, 04:18 PM
Can they make you give them to them? Don't know. I'd be inclined to help out in an emergency, but I'd have to be sure it was an emergency and they better be willing to let me go with the guns.

BillCA
November 27, 2007, 05:59 PM
When I read the OP, my first thought was No.

Then I caught the idea of 500 people rioting, looting, etc.

Let's address the OP as stated. Urgent knocking at the door and a cop explains that some situation is out of control and he wants to borrow a "high powered" rifle. Maybe it's a cop I know or one I know sent him to me. If it's a barricade/hostage situation, the answer is No. If it's a sniper, then the answer may be Yes, if I'm the one to shoot my rifle. Here's why;

I don't shoot my rifles enough to guarantee it's accuracy at any given range will be "good enough" for a hostage situation. This requires a precision rifle with a well tuned scope and known loads to predict precise placement. Besides that, they can probably acquire better rifles than my old Mil-Surps. Secondarily, if there is a miss or things go wrong, I don't want to be dragged into court for providing the tools for bad police decisions.

In a sniper situation, with my rifles and ammo, I'm sure I can act to keep the sniper's head down well enough for them to advance. Or perhaps myself and another shooter. One does not need pinpoint 500m accuracy here (it sure helps).

In the riot situation where several hundred people are rioting, looting, burning, etc. Instead of asking for arms, the officer should be asking for volunteers or saying "I require your help" and explaining the mission. In that case, I may supply some ammo plus bring my own arms to the conflict. The goal would be to contain the riot to prevent its spread, eliminate armed rioters and the looters and restore order.

This isn't as off-the-wall as it may sound. All we need to do is recall the L.A. Rodney King riots or other periodic outbreaks of chaos. One could easily see some event based on a major setback for illegals if they were whipped into a frenzy by agitators.

Someone made reference to the Zulu attack at Rorke's Drift, Natal on 22-23 January 1879. In that case, it was approximately 150 defenders against 4,000 Zulu's (well trained and blooded warriors) armed with assagai (spears). Eleven defenders were awarded the Victoria Cross in the action. The last of the defenders to die was Colour Sergeant Frank Edward Bourne DCM, OBE who died as a Lt. Colonel on 8 May 1945 (VE Day) at age 91.

HuntAndFish
November 27, 2007, 09:19 PM
Any Missouri cop that comes to my door and asks to use a rifle, gets one to use with ammo. And no, I don't want to go along and see the elephant.

MO Officer's Memorial Page (http://www.odmp.org/browse.php?abbr=MO)

I would be upset though if they wanted all of them.

MisterPX
November 27, 2007, 10:37 PM
If my local PD needs what I've got, they're more than welcome to use them.

Atticus Thraxx
November 28, 2007, 01:24 PM
Any sworn officer needs my help in anyway, I'd feel morally obligated to assist. I can't for the life of me envision a situation where it would come up where I live, but none the less, they need only ask.

Yellowfin
November 28, 2007, 01:30 PM
It wasn't hypothetical at all in the Charles Whitman incident. Lots of armed citizens got involved on the ground, and one directly led the cops up the tower. It's one example that the anti's, particularly those with universities, conveniently forget.

PPGMD
November 28, 2007, 04:42 PM
All except for one, he has a .308 bolt action Savage rifle with powerful scope. (Sharp shooter for SRT)

Even the snipers have ARs on one of my local SWAT teams, he has his bolt gun, and a really nice Colt M4 Commando.

Anyways I highly doubt that an officer would ever have a need to use civilian guns anymore, even if you had a collection of automatics since they are of limited use for police work. Patrol carbines are becoming increasing common place, the need for borrowed weapons would be minimal.

FM12
November 29, 2007, 09:17 AM
Yellowfin...can idiots with guns get to the top of Denny Chimes?:eek:

V4Vendetta
November 29, 2007, 09:58 AM
I really doubt that a officer would ever need my guns especially with all the news stories lately about cops having their own AR's.

However, in the event they do, I don't know what I'd do.

I live in a pretty rural area so city cops would be going way out of their way just to borrow my guns.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of handing a firearm to someone I don't know even if they are a officer. I can just imagine getting sued in the event they used it.

I guess it all depends on the situation. No way would they be getting them all though.

markj
November 29, 2007, 10:37 AM
If a cop needed one of my guns I would suspect that cop. I do not own any "tactical" arms, just my handguns and hunting rifles, and shotguns.

If "they" came to take em, why Iwould hand over my old .22 shorty and send them on their way.

Hemicuda
December 1, 2007, 07:08 PM
I have a few cop friends who know what I have... they could get a gun from me if need be...

Stevie-Ray
December 5, 2007, 09:30 PM
Tough call. In my city, if a cop came to me and asked about borrowing an accurate para-military weapon, I'd probably oblige. If one demanded it in a commandeering tone, he'd get squat. This city has both types.

easyG
December 5, 2007, 09:54 PM
I probably wouldn't even answer the knock at the door.

SpookBoy
December 5, 2007, 10:35 PM
Im with you easyG no answer, no guns. nothing against the police by anymeans, but i think if they need something from joesmo on the streets, then i think i'd prob need it more, sooner or later.

kgpcr
December 8, 2007, 11:34 PM
I would not worry about this ever happening but i would always help LEO's when they need help.