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View Full Version : Another Shoot or Don't Shoot Thread... With a Twist


stephen426
November 24, 2007, 11:50 AM
First of all, this is not another "tactic cool" thread. The idea of this poll is to find out whether or not you SHOULD shoot someone robbing you if you had the opportunity. Since this is a gun forum, I want you guys to really pause for a moment and think before simply choosing the "Blast'em" option.

Here is the scenario:
You are the owner of a business and someone comes in to rob you at gun point. So far, the bad guy has made no indication that he wants to hurt anyone. He probably justs wants the money, but you never know. Lets say something distracts the robber and you have a chance to draw your weapon. Do you shoot him, tell him to drop his weapon, or leave your gun holstered and hope he just takes the money and leaves.

Lets throw in a few qualifying statements here:
-Your money is insured against theft less a deductible.
-There is little chance of collateral damage (no bystanders for you to hit)
-The robber has been acting in a calm manner so far without overtly threatening anyone.
-The robber is not wearing a mask and you have seen his face, but it is not someone you know (not a former employee)

Here are the options:
-Shoot Him: Compliance does not gaurantee he will not shoot you.
-Draw your Weapon and Tell Him to Drop His. If he complies, hold him for police. He may decide to run away which for most becomes a no shoot scenario. If he does not comply and points his weapon at you, everyone would say to shoot.
-Hand over the Money and leave you weapon holstered as long as he is not overtly threatened to kill anyone (but you never know).

Other Considerations:
If you shoot the person and kill him, his family may try to come after you civilly. This may end up costing you lots of money to defend assuming the case is accepted by the courts, probably even more so than the money you would have lost to the robber, especially since it is insured. His family may try to come after you or your family personally for revenge (unfortunately genocide is not an option). You have to consider that you could be followed or that they could ambush you when you leave your business. You cannot simply pick up and leave everything behind. A lot of information is also public record. Once they have your name, they can look up marriage records (to locate your family) and property records (to locate your home and how much you paid for your house). There is also a lot of other information that is public that is there for prying eyes. You also have to consider that succesful robberies with no resistance may lead to future robberies (bad guys like to brag). The final consideration is you never know for sure if the guy is going to shoot you.

What would you guys do?

homefires
November 24, 2007, 12:15 PM
Put the dog down!:D

If he wants to take your goodies via gun point, He ant Santa Clause!


I owe him or his family NOTHING!


He made that choice by his actions. I Didn't!

How do I know he isn't going to take the money, look me square in the eyes! In the most polite voice possible say " Thank You So Much Sir " BANG!:eek::eek:

FirstFreedom
November 24, 2007, 01:00 PM
Can't vote; it depends on every little detail about his demeanor and how threatening. Probably however, draw and hold UNLESS and UNTIL his gun's muzzle BEGINS to point within 45 degrees of my body; then shoot.

rampage841512
November 24, 2007, 03:42 PM
The only decision to be made, if any, once you are already being robbed should be to shoot immediately or try to hold'em for LEOs. All of the decisions should have been made when you decided to carry a firearm. The only one I think you might want to save for a time when snap decisions are necessary is "Shoot, or attempt to hold at gun point." Waiting until the event occurs to put thought into all of the things that need to be considered is probably way to late.

Think first, that way when the time comes all you have to do is act.

joe poteat
November 24, 2007, 05:39 PM
I would shoot him (at least twice) I am sure no one was ever shot dead by a calm armed robber.

elza
November 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
I chose #1. Things happen way to fast to give the criminal any type of edge. If there is ANY chance that something will happen to me or mine, I opt for 'me'.
If you shoot the person and kill him, his family may try to come after you civilly.
This is no longer a concern in Texas so it doesn't impact my answer.

Sigma 40 Blaster
November 24, 2007, 05:52 PM
I guess I am one of the very few who would give the guy a chance to live while defending myself and my property. You can play the well...maybe he'll retaliate or what if....game to death. At the end of the day I am thinking that if this guy just runs away/goes to jail he'll never come back and wouldn't risk coming back because that would definitely result in a shooting.

If I can draw and point my gun and he doesn't respond with an attempt to shoot he doesn't want to KILL me. I do not think I'd let the guy flee the scene though, our justice system is far from perfect but an attempted arm robber needs to face the music for his actions.

I will say that if that gun moves towards me OR is already pointed at me than I'm assuming intent to KILL and will defend myself without words.

Since an overwhelming majority voted for shoot first, think later, I wish more would respond as to why not give a brief option to comply with a command to freeze and drop it before shooting IF you are not already looking down a muzzle.

grimcreeper
November 24, 2007, 06:02 PM
i say shoot him.anyone who pulls out a gun,or a knife,or ANY weapon with the intent to rob IS OVERTLY THREATENING and will be treated as such ie:two to the chest one to the head.

The Tourist
November 24, 2007, 06:06 PM
Shoot center mass and get the guy on his back as fast as possible.

First, 'stopping' is not killing. He is in the act of a felony and many states also assess penalties if a gun is used.

You're not a mind read reader. Simply because he is calm at the moment, does not mean you won't be herded into a back room and shot later.

Three, you have a chance at a gun and a shot now. You do not know if that chance will present itself again.

Finally, so what if the felons family sues you? Anyone can sue you at any time for any thing.

File a counter suit for abuse of process, intentional infliction of emotional distress, attorney's fees and failing to toilet their kid when they had control of him.

one-shot-one
November 24, 2007, 06:29 PM
that if you are the one: "You are the owner of a business and someone comes in to rob you at gun point."
then this statment: "The robber has been acting in a calm manner so far without overtly threatening anyone." probably wont make you feel much better.
my dad always told me never point a gun at anything you are NOT willing to destroy. got give the robber that same respect, if he has pointed a gun at you then he must be willing to shoot you there for the only answer to your question is to defend yourself with any and all options available to you.

The Tourist
November 24, 2007, 06:34 PM
give the robber that same respect

Exactly why would you respect a felon who has violated your business, is attempting to steal your profits, intimidate your clients and bring lethal weapons within firing distance?

finrot
November 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
I would say it depends on what state you are in . If I shot him in CT. regardless of circumstance I'D probably be in deep s--t. If not legally the survivors would probably sue my ass off and win. In Texas ???

Quadvet
November 24, 2007, 07:58 PM
Right is right: Shoot him.

As has been stated many times in the past here, anything else i.e. letting the robber get away is nothing less than contributing to the decline of a moral society, even if he is jailed.

From what I've read lurking here, it sees to be a great debate.

My first job at 16 years old was a small gas station in an isolated logging town of 1100. The owner had a small slide-auto, showed me how to run it and said simply "don't let anyone rob me". Of course that was back in the day when things were more clear-cut... God I feel old.

Bud Helms
November 24, 2007, 11:14 PM
Moving to Tactics & Training.

stephen426
November 25, 2007, 01:59 AM
I think you guys are missing the point here. The money is insured. For states that prevent families of deceased scumbags from suing, it eliminates the civil suit problem. The problem becomes what if they go after you OR YOUR FAMILY as retaliation. It is impossible to protect them 100% of the time. I'm still of the mindset to shoot, but my wife and parents are concerned, especially with the holiday season starting off.

The Tourist
November 25, 2007, 02:42 AM
I also hate to state a very obvious point here, but if the felon is dead, it makes your account of the situation the final word.

Even if other citizens are in the store and have their opinions, your statement of, "I thought we were in mortal danger," pretty much closes the door on a rebuttal.

A security camera would show a felon in a robbery attempt with a firearm. He would not be around to establish his slant on the film.

As to any civil trial, just who would the family call to testify? You, or the witnesses who are grateful to be alive?

Tanzer
November 25, 2007, 08:17 AM
Not really answering here, just adding a few things the OP may not have considered - pro and con.
1) A calm demeaner means jack sh*t. He's most likely bipolar, and about to go into a different mode when his brain chemistry changes (the reality of seeing the money, and realizing he now needs to get out of the store).
2) He has the drop on you - big time! If you're CC'ing, good luck getting out your weapon under that kind of stress.
3) I may not be CC'ing. If I'm running a jewelry or similar store, I'm in a shirt and tie. Not easy to conceal a usefull weapon (there "may or may not be" one under the counter already pointed in his direction though).;) If it's my business, on my property, I may have the option to OC, but probably would not as this makes quite a telegraph, and might scare away the lady buying a Rolex for her hubby, and the 12 K earrings. I figure that gun store owners OC because they are obviously armed. Depends on the business. A lawn mower store is a different ballgame.
4) If he doesn't know he's on camera, he's more of a nut than you're giving him credit for.
5) I seriously doubt I'm going to try to hold him in an environment that can change at any moment (customer enters, etc)
So, Overall, I'd PROBABLY not give him a second chance if he made the mistake of giving me the time I needed.
I used to frequent a gas station at which the booth was bullet proof glass. It had a break-away lever inside, and a LOADED shotgun at an angle just over the average Joe's head. One step on a pedal, and one quick pull, and a 12 GA Mossy was saying "HELLO"at your face. I knew the guy enough for him to show me the system.

The Tourist
November 25, 2007, 12:28 PM
He's most likely bipolar

Oh, c'mon, guy. I'm bi-polar and it took three doctors and an MMPI2 test to verify and diagnose that!

Do you seriously expect a tradesman, waiting on a customer, to accurately ascertain the mental accuity of a bandit based on seconds of observation of demeanor?

Heck, where were you twenty years ago? I could have saved a fortune on medical costs!

Tanzer
November 25, 2007, 12:59 PM
Okay, bipolar -too specific, you got me on that one.
Do you seriously expect a tradesman, waiting on a customer, to accurately ascertain the mental accuity of a bandit based on seconds of observation of demeanor?
Instead of bipolar - how about; So da*m psycho that he's robbing a store at gunpoint and not showing any emotion? I'm not going to thumb through the Journal of the American Straight Jacket Society to figure out what the H*LL is wrong with him, or how to properly phrase his "Challenge" as it relates to behaving like he's standing at his own personal ATM. I'm going to figure that he stands out like a guy with horns and a goatee wearing a red suit at a monastary.
Sorry if I used the wrong terminology, I'll try to be more general in the future.

rampage841512
November 25, 2007, 01:07 PM
I think you guys are missing the point here. The money is insured. For states that prevent families of deceased scumbags from suing, it eliminates the civil suit problem. The problem becomes what if they go after you OR YOUR FAMILY as retaliation. It is impossible to protect them 100% of the time. I'm still of the mindset to shoot, but my wife and parents are concerned, especially with the holiday season starting off.

Decide now whether you are going to act to protect yourself from an immediate threat or take your chances on getting murdered in order to protect your family from one that probably only exists in your imagination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just even more unlikely than the BG not shooting or in some other way harming you if you comply.

Anyway, if your family is so concerned, encourage them to get the training they need to keep themselves safe. If they refuse, it's on them at that point when they are not with you. You're only one man.

willson73
November 25, 2007, 01:22 PM
Based on the scenario, I'm assuming that the robber is armed and presenting his weapon, and pointing it at me. I don't care how 'calmly' the robber is acting, if someone has the immediate opportunity, and I perceive there is intent (a gun pointed at me) I'm shooting. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I'm not talking about protecting my money or store, I don't want that bad guy to very calmly shoot me!

oystermick
November 25, 2007, 01:28 PM
Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong. You might want to explain to him that stealing from hard working folk is not the correct thing to do. Ask him gently why he's so angry as to use a gun to take what isn't his. Offer him your money and roll over and beg for your life explaining that you are a good liberal and you're against the death penalty. Should he not be gone with your money at this point, ask him the one second you need to kiss your ass goodby.

Quite frankly, it's a stupid question.

one-shot-one
November 25, 2007, 03:36 PM
"Exactly why would you respect a felon"
i mean you should respect the fact that if he is willing to point a gun at you he is willing to "destroy" you and therefore no matter how calm or polite he may be behaving other than pointing the gun at you, you should do what ever is nessacery to make sure that you are the one to walkaway from this situation not him!;)

Creature
November 25, 2007, 03:39 PM
Since I can not read the mind of the robber, I can only go by what I am presented with...a person pointing at me what I must presume is a loaded weapon. Since he is pointing it at me and demanding something that I have, I can only presume that he is prepared to shoot me for it. I am not ready to die just yet, so I would draw and shoot him first.

I am not protecting my money or merchandise by shooting him...I am protecting my life because he is pointing a gun at me while committing a crime.

stephen426
November 25, 2007, 07:04 PM
Decide now whether you are going to act to protect yourself from an immediate threat or take your chances on getting murdered in order to protect your family from one that probably only exists in your imagination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just even more unlikely than the BG not shooting or in some other way harming you if you comply.

Anyway, if your family is so concerned, encourage them to get the training they need to keep themselves safe. If they refuse, it's on them at that point when they are not with you. You're only one man.

Thank you. Your response is the most on point so far. I have already decided to carry and defend my life with lethal force if needed. I made that decision years ago when I first started carrying.

My parents and my wife did raise some valid concerns so I figured I would ask the forum their opinion. I find it rather pathetic that our legal system allows the family of scumbag criminals to sue when they get what they deserved even though the courts have ruled it a justifiable self-defense shooting. The retaliation concern is also valid and no amoount of coaxing or pleading can force my wife or parents to become sufficiently proficient with a firearm to defend themselves. Even if armed, there is still the possibility that they could be killed. After all, even lucky shots kill. You also need to consider that there is a tremendous amount of information that is public record and bad guys have equal access to this info. I do not advocate rolling over by any means, but it does give one something to think about.

Would the results change if the robber was an obvious gang banger? I'm saying it could go wither way since there is a higher likelihood of retaliation. There is also a possibility that this is an "initiation robbery/killing" where he will kill you no matter what.

Just a quick question... Does anyone have access to reliable data that shows what percentage of robberies involve shots fired vs. no shots fired? I would hate for those results to support my parents stance of no resistance, no injuries.

Dwight55
November 25, 2007, 07:34 PM
This is a tough call, . . . no matter which way you go. There is no percentage call on "holding him for the cops", . . . it's either comply or shoot, . . . and I'll have to go for the shoot based on two reasons:

First, . . . because of no mask, he is no pro, . . . he may be a junkie (need to look for those signs), . . . he may be a newbie to armed robbery, . . . or he may be so desperate that he just pulled his gun and went for it. In any case, you do not have a stable individual facing you.

Secondly, . . . he was distracted, . . . not focused, . . . therefore he probably does not have a plan, . . . he's making this up as he goes, . . . and if he suddenly realizes I'm making mental notes of his blue shirt, tattered jeans, Georgia boots, and Cleveland Browns ball cap, . . . I'm dead.

Conclusion, . . . as soon as he is distracted, . . . I'm drawing and moving. He may be able to shoot a moving target, . . . probably can't. I only have to pause long enough to put two in him, . . . move again, . . . check for need of another two. I know the store, . . . he doesn't, . . . and if I get a chance, . . . I'm out the door. Leo's can check on him when they get there.

May God bless,
Dwight

obxned
November 25, 2007, 09:20 PM
SHOOT! My mama didn't raise no fools, and she sure as heck don't want to have to bury one.

coolhandluke4
November 25, 2007, 09:22 PM
shoot him. Repeat until desired results are obtained.

My great aunt was killed during a robbery in her convenience store, she had complied with the robber. Sawed off shotgun to the chest. I'd been to her store a couple hours earlier.

ragwd
November 25, 2007, 10:13 PM
Shoot center mass twice while moving to cover (not just concealment). Reassess the situation and make sure you have stopped the deadly threat to your life. Before he made the fatal mistake of looking away, the situation seemed calm but thats no guarantee that it will stay that way. He could become agitated that you didn't have enough cash or someone else could walk in and upset him and shoot not only you but everyone else in the area. These situations can be very dynamic. Money being insured is not a variable. Some one is threatening your life, thats is the only point. Whether he is calm or not isn't a variable either. The gun will kill you no matter what his state of mind. I doubt he would have a Cleveland Browns hat on. We just beat Houston today to go to 7-4 for the season so all Browns fans a at the bar celebrating :D

Neal in GA
November 25, 2007, 10:39 PM
Shoot him. He came in with a gun. That's threat enough. Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Then take his gun away from him and call the police and paramedics for him.

XD Gunner
November 25, 2007, 11:16 PM
Exactly why would you respect a felon who has violated your business, is attempting to steal your profits, intimidate your clients and bring lethal weapons within firing distance?

He was stating "respect" as in, "I'll treat you, as you are treating me"

Seriously. The question, and ONLY question, you should ask yourself, is "Do I want to make sure I see my loved ones tonite?" If you answer yes, draw and fire.

kgpcr
November 25, 2007, 11:48 PM
What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events. i go with the flow and can think on my feet and will deal with each situation as it presents itself. My Marine Corps training taught me that. I can think under stress and can act under stress. You wont get that kind of training here or on some weekend gun camp. You can plan all you want but when the lead starts to fly the plans go right out the window and you have to be able to think under stress and make good decisions in a heartbeat.

Gamisou
November 26, 2007, 12:05 AM
I would shoot him in his crotch (hopefully taking out his pelvic bone support) so he drops to the floor. Jump the counter etc, get on top of him kicking his gun away. If he fumbles trying to fight manipulating the gun, double tap, continue till he complies. Hold him gunpoint from a safe distance, make him interlock fingers on back of his head, face down. Wait for reinforcements.

I do not want anyone thinking they could get away with doing something like that. That would be my main concern. If its done successfully once, it will happen again. Thus putting people in danger more than they already have been. As far as revenge from his family, thats why I carry every day. He was wrong, he paid the consequences. Not looking to kill the guy, but when his low life friends hear about his injury, I don't think anyone will be thinking its an attractive idea to replicate. Meat and potatoes stay intact.

kgpcr
November 26, 2007, 12:14 AM
Big problem here! NEVER shoot to wound! Shoot center mass. why wound him and **** him off?? I dont think you would ever have to worry about the scenario ever happening but unless you need a prisoner to get intel from, never try and wound, shoot to stop and take yourself out of danger for good. if shooting to wound would suffice then you should not shoot at all

Quadvet
November 26, 2007, 06:53 AM
CoolhandLuke got it right, sorry about your great aunt.
I'm not talking about protecting my money or store, I don't want that bad guy to very calmly shoot me!Agreed.

Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong.:confused: :barf:

Does anyone have access to reliable data that shows what percentage of robberies involve shots fired vs. no shots fired? I don't PLAN to be on the wrong end of those statistics (shot).

stephpd
November 26, 2007, 07:54 AM
It seems he made his intent clear when he robs you at gun point. If he didn't have intent to kill he could rob you without the gun. By using a gun he thought that it might be nessesary to kill to get what he wants.
If the opportunity to stop the threat presents itself I would take it. This is the mindset of carrying for self-protection. I can't read their minds but a gun in my face isn't something I take lightly. If they become distracted and I have a chance they will never try that on me again.:rolleyes:

Tanzer
November 26, 2007, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong.
Pretty sure he was just kidding.

I would shoot him in his crotch (hopefully taking out his pelvic bone support) so he drops to the floor. Jump the counter etc, get on top of him kicking his gun away.
Very unrealistic.
What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events.
You are 99.7% correct. In the grand scheme of things, I agree. But, and this is a BIG BUTT ()(), Whenever something major happens, we always say; "Wow, never thought that could happen". A local Jewelry store up here was "attemptedly" robbed, and the BG caught 4-5 center mass (didn't live to tell his sob-story). Everyone in town thought; "Wow, never thought it could happen".
Notice if you will; We "reasonable folk" debate this kind of thing, BG's do not. They plan, and may even debate whether they should or shouldn't do it, but I'd lay odds that less than 10% wrestle with the morality of it. THERE is the big difference. I could be wrong on that because I've never entertained the thought of robbery - armed or not, so my 10% deal is a guess (guy needs to pay for Grandma's operation etc), but I doubt I'm far off.

stephen426
November 26, 2007, 03:01 PM
What are the chances of this happening in the real world?? Does reality matter at all? Here is a fact for you all to consider. More lives would be saved by drinking skim milk than whole milk or eating one less meal of red meat a week that carrying a gun. I carry most of the time and like to carry but really some of thes scenarios are just plain silly. I dont preplan my days events. i go with the flow and can think on my feet and will deal with each situation as it presents itself. My Marine Corps training taught me that. I can think under stress and can act under stress. You wont get that kind of training here or on some weekend gun camp. You can plan all you want but when the lead starts to fly the plans go right out the window and you have to be able to think under stress and make good decisions in a heartbeat.

Not to be arguementative, but what is the point of your post? We carry so that we are prepared for the unexpected. What if we already drink skim milk and eat less red meat? You might call this scenario silly or what not. IF you don't believe in bad guys, just turn on your local news. I happen to live in a big city that has an above average crime rate (Miami, FL). I just happen to OWN a franchise (restaurant) where 6 have been hit in the last few months (maybe due to their sheeple weapons policy). Maybe I should just go and hide in a bunker and be safe. I like where I live and I like my business. The threat of robbery is a real one and one manager (of a corporate store) has been killed. With your mentality, why bother carrying at all? In that case, why bother to post other than to troll?

kgpcr
November 27, 2007, 07:07 AM
Not a troll at all but why sit around and think of things that may happen? train and be prepared! But you dont have to sit and wait for the worst to happen. many of these are so far fetched i would worry more about being hurt by falling space garbage than the scenario happening.

Sigma 40 Blaster
November 27, 2007, 07:36 AM
So it looks like you are really more concerned with the likelihood of retaliation than anything else.

Chances are unless this guy is part of a real gang with real gangsters you and yours will be safe after the fact. Just because a group of guys call themselves a gang and jump other people into it doesn't necessarily mean they are hardcore. Those are very few and far between. You (or your family) must have seen that Kevin Bacon movie Death Sentence huh? Not trying to be funny here.

But I think the greatest concern is stop the immediate threat (guy with gun). The future has so many possibilities that it is worth considering but not enough to stop your gut instincts to prevent an immediate robbery and potential shooting.

If your folks are concerned about their safety in the event you have to do something like this to protect yourself I'd recommend that you make every attempt you can to get them into "this thing of ours" and help them get the hardware or training that may one day save their lives. My wife is/was ALMOST an anti but she has some training scheduled early next year to be topped off with the gun of her choice and CHL training. She realized that I cannot be with her every moment of every day and it may be on her to protect herself and my son one day and wants to be prepared to do so.

stephen426
November 27, 2007, 11:34 AM
Not a troll at all but why sit around and think of things that may happen? train and be prepared! But you dont have to sit and wait for the worst to happen. many of these are so far fetched i would worry more about being hurt by falling space garbage than the scenario happening.

Failure to be mentally prepared leads to indecisiveness and increases the chances of taking the wrong action or delayed action. Like I said earlier, I am prepared to shoot someone threatening me with deadly force and would not hesitate if I thought my life in danger.

Many members have made a highly valid point that you can never be sure of what the robber will do and that one should exploit any opportunity to "take control" of the situation. Again, claim that this scenario is far fetched. Which scenario are you talking about? Getting robbed? Over half a dozen restaurants of this particular franchise I own have been hit in the past 3 months? My restaurant is very busy and we are coming into the holiday season. What better time to hit a restaurant? If you are saying that the possibility of retaliation is low, I invite you to provide statistics. Retaliation may be physical or legal.

I don't believe that Florida prevents family members of dead scumbags from taking civil action against people who were not charged with a homocide. Furthermore, I don't plan on closing the business or changing my name or address so finding me won't be hard. Will I be 100% prepared against any attacks? Probably not. It is impossible to prevent an ambush since I do not know everymember of the scumbag's family. The same goes for my wife and parents, plus they are not as capable to defend themselves.

We do not live in a bubble and understand that there are risks involved with owning a business. Their stance is that we increase the risks or additional trouble (be it physincal or legal) by shooting and killing someone over money that is insured. I hope it never happens, but based on the responses so far, all resonses have been to take control of the situation, whether it be shooting or attempting to disarm him at gun point. Trust me... any agression will be met with equal or greater force.

Kruniac
November 29, 2007, 03:11 PM
Big problem here! NEVER shoot to wound! Shoot center mass. why wound him and **** him off?? I dont think you would ever have to worry about the scenario ever happening but unless you need a prisoner to get intel from, never try and wound, shoot to stop and take yourself out of danger for good. if shooting to wound would suffice then you should not shoot at all

I agree. If I knew I had a chance, I wouldnt have a whole lot of fear, since actually being aware of your chance to draw means that the bad guy is wide open. Wide open=Comfort for me.

Fire three to five into the center (somewhere, because we arent going to be marksmen while avoiding getting shot) while keeping an eye on his gun movement, then when hes down, hit him once more in the side of the face "because he went for his gun".

If he dies from the headshot, great. If he doesnt, he gets to be disfigured for the rest of his life, and he can do some inspirational videos for urban youths about the dangers of criminal life. Either way, I keep my money, my life, my business, and I get some extra customers once I make the news.

And theres all the angles.

dwatts47
November 29, 2007, 03:22 PM
I wish not to shoot him "just because I can", but I'm also not ignorant enought to think that If I comply he'll hurt no one.

If I did comply, and he hurt no one, I've just become his local ATM for everytime he gets low on cash...Like any bully, he'd try and bleed you dry until you had nothing to give except your life and that my friends is not an option.

Kruniac
November 29, 2007, 03:34 PM
I wish not to shoot him "just because I can"

I have to disagree with this. Not trying to sound like a mall-ninja navy s33l or anything, If I ever had a chance to legally murder a criminal (especially if that criminal was interfering with MY life), I would take it.

Im not talking about some guy throwing me a beating because I called him a douchebag in a bar. I dont mean "civil disagreements". I mean armed robbers, burglars, etc.

If I am in the frame of mind to carefully consider the situation, and in said situation I can legally murder the guy - im taking that opportunity. If their mothers and fathers cry for them, well, maybe they should have been aware that their son was a scumbag. If their children grow up without fathers, I feel very sorry for them, as they didnt have a choice in the world regarding the hand that got dealt. If their wives end up alone, they should have left the criminal a long time before it came to that.

I dont support racism, religious hatred, or any other cliche that gets put on people for who they are - but one cliche I dont roll with is the criminal type. Predators who WILL take advantage of weakness, and take other people's lives/family/money/property. I wont tolerate them, and thats just the way I feel.

zbordas
November 29, 2007, 03:47 PM
There were too many cases when the calm robber(s) did not want to leave any witnesses behind and litteraly executed the staff.

I would rather take my chances while I can and take out the attacker rather than being a victim. If I saw somebody pulling a weapon I would immediatly try to take cover / move out of the endangered zone then / while accessing my SD weapon. If you start moving you have a lot better chances.

I would not put my life on the mercy of an armed robber!

dwatts47
November 29, 2007, 03:52 PM
If I ever had a chance to legally murder a criminal (especially if that criminal was interfering with MY life), I would take it.


Self defense is not murder. By responding this way it shows an arrogance of "oh yea, well take this you dirty son of a...."

Not the kinda thing you want a jury, or a society to associate with you and your family.

Erik
December 1, 2007, 09:05 PM
"You are the owner of a business and someone comes in to rob you at gun point. So far, the bad guy has made no indication that he wants to hurt anyone."

Your conclusion does not match your scenario.

Luis Leon
December 2, 2007, 01:59 AM
I'm not fast enough to answer all those questions in the alloted time span. He put himself in harms way, when he pointed his gun at me. Shoot him to the ground. See your family again, and hopefully prevail against any assault on your integrity by the legal system.

regards,

Luis Leon

45-70
December 2, 2007, 09:01 AM
Sorry, Stephen 426. I think your scenario is loaded.

First you state that the bad guy is robbing us at gun point. Then you say he is acting in a calm manner so far without overtly threatening anyone. Stop right there.

No wonder you worry about lawsuits and retaliation, if you allow your thoughts to muddle off this way. If a guy points a gun at me and demands money, that right there is a threat to kill or do great bodily harm. If there is no threat, there is no robbery, by definition. Ask a lawyer.

You have set up a situation involving a clear threat to kill, then you add on layers of denial. The scenario doesn't work for me. The bad guy can very calmly have a negligent discharge and someone can still die. For this senario, when the BG shows the deadly weapon, he has pushed my start button. Something bad is very likely to happen to him within the next 2 seconds, if at all possible, unless he drops his weapon or runs.

Suggestion: Clarify your thinking or you may wind up providing a source of more weapons for robbers, as they take your unused firearm away from you or off your body.

rem870hunter
December 4, 2007, 06:55 PM
i know the laws in NJ are funny here but



i look at it like this. you came into my business. with a weapon. gun, knife bat. a board with or without a 6" nail sticking out the side of it. whatever telling/asking me for money. as far as i am concerned you came into my HOUSE threatning me or my customers/family. YOU are a major lowlife scumbag and don't belong in here or in society. i don't need to pull and tell/ask you to leave or put the weapon down. you came in on your own with 1 thing on your mind. to hurt or kill someone. for money etc. things that do not belong to YOU. what needs to be done is for you to take 2 .45 slugs or a round or 12 ga. buckshot to your chest. thats all and when you get to hell tell satan i said HELLO!!! and to also tell your friends and family DO NOT MESS WITH A HOME/BUSINESS OWNER.

easyG
December 6, 2007, 11:59 AM
If he's pointing his gun at me then I would give him the money.

But if he gets distracted and turns for even a second....he's a dead man.