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cue7467
November 19, 2007, 07:51 PM
Okay I have heard different stories and maybe someone here can clear this up?


If you have a semi-automatic pistol (ie: Glock, M-11, HK, ect...) can you put a grip on the front or will this make it class III???

:confused:

oldbillthundercheif
November 19, 2007, 08:01 PM
Yep, a vertical foregrip on a pistol makes it an AOW (any other weapon). Stupid, but that's the law I think.

MDman
November 19, 2007, 08:24 PM
wow thats news to me...

who is writing these laws?!!?

VUPDblue
November 19, 2007, 08:40 PM
some say that the vertical grip definition of an AOW is an archaic interpretation of the NFA laws. I personally believe that it goes against the spirit of the law. The reason that the VFG makes an ordinary pistol an AOW is that the definition of pistol reads that a pistol is designed and intended to be fired with one hand. Adding a VFG makes it 'intended' to be fired using both hands. IMHO, a VFG makes an ordinary pistol much less accurate and unwieldy.

cue7467
November 19, 2007, 09:48 PM
Ok now here is the kicker....

At least here in Indiana a mossberg 500 with a pistol grip in the rear is considered a handgun. If I put my Knoxx Sidewinder 10 round drum conversion on it there is a front pistol grip that attaches to it. Does it now become an AOW????:eek:

VUPDblue
November 19, 2007, 10:29 PM
At least here in Indiana a mossberg 500 with a pistol grip in the rear is considered a handgun. If I put my Knoxx Sidewinder 10 round drum conversion on it there is a front pistol grip that attaches to it. Does it now become an AOW????
It is not a pistol in Indiana. If the barrel is >18" and the OAL is 26" or greater,then it is still a shotgun (or long-gun), no if's and's or but's. If you add a forward grip to such a shotgun, then it is not an AOW, it is still a shotgun. Indiana does not allow short barreled shotguns, but AOW's are OK. The difference being, that AOW's started life as shotgun receivers without shoulder stocks attached. If they were born with stocks, then they can only be converted into SBS's.

As an aside, Indiana's definition (at least the on-paper definition) of what-is an SBS, technically encompases AOW's too. I could see the court ruling that certain AOW's are prohibited SBS's if it ever came up.

GLP Standard
November 20, 2007, 04:27 AM
I have to ask...why would anyone want to put a VFG on a pistol? Seems...I dont know...pointless?

And I thought I would add that I think SBR and SBS are a waste of a $200 tax stamp. For instance, my AR-15 has a 16" barrel. The guy that sold it to me had another AR-15 that he put an M4 barrel on, and registered it as a SBR. Is there really a point in shortening the barrel an inch and a half more? If there is, please tell me, or share why you think people would be interested in such a modification

VUPDblue
November 20, 2007, 09:07 AM
And I thought I would add that I think SBR and SBS are a waste of a $200 tax stamp.

To each his own I guess. I don't personally see the point in registering an SBR just to go to the 14.5" barrel, but if you want to, then it's ok with me. That being said, now that I have a few SBR's with <5" barrels, all of them being pistol calibers, if I bought another .223 upper it would be the 14.5 incher.

GLP Standard
November 20, 2007, 02:04 PM
Having less than a 5" barrel I could understand. Thats significantly shorter. I think the only weapon I would want to register as a SBR is an MP5 clone.

VUPD: Did you get my PM about your thread? You never PMed me back or updated it. If you chose not to take my suggestion, it doesnt bother me. Its your thread, and Im not trying to sound like I know a lot, because Im a newbie to NFA weapons. They were just a couple issues I thought you might like to bring up

cue7467
November 20, 2007, 06:11 PM
My folks own a gun shop here in Indiana. If they sell a mossberg 500 with a pisol grip on it then it is considered a pistol they are required to sell it as one. I don't know why but that is what they were told.

VUPDblue
November 20, 2007, 07:01 PM
That is totally not true. I don't know where somebody got into a misunderstanding down that line, but what you describe is NOT a pistol! On the 4473, it should be logged as a long gun, not a handgun. If they are selling 500's with barrels less than 18" then there is a major problem occuring!

A shotgun is, by definition, a long-arm. Shotguns with short barrels are either AOW's or SBS's. There is NO provision for any type of shotgun being defined as a pistol. Handguns with smooth bores are AOW's. I just don't understand what you may have heard or been told that leads you to believe that a shotgun, in any configuration, is a pistol:confused:

cue7467
November 20, 2007, 08:37 PM
I believe that is what they were told at a Shot Show by ATF.

They have the standard 18.5" barrel nothing shorter...

VUPDblue
November 20, 2007, 08:37 PM
They were told wrong.

Curiously, what shop do they own?

David Hineline
November 21, 2007, 04:51 AM
Pistol gripped shotguns may not be purchased by anyone under the age of 21 from a FFL dealer this is similar to buying handguns.

Similarly are other odd guns like 1919a4, it's sure not a handgun, but it's not a rifle since it's not shoulder fired, so it's up in the air as to what it is.

Hkmp5sd
November 21, 2007, 07:03 AM
The confusion of what to call the pistol grip shotgun comes from the February 1999 ATF FFL Newletter Volume 1 (http://www.atf.gov/pub/fflnews_pub/ffl0299.pdf). ATF says the regulations state that a person must be 21 to purchase "anything other than a rifle or a shotgun." They then claim by definition a shotgun is "intended to be fired from the shoulder." Using that definition, they decide a pistol grip only shotgun is not a shotgun. And using logic only ATF could come up with, they state that a shotgun sold with both a full stock and a pistol grip is considered a shotgun, even if the shoulder stock is not attached.

ATF also states that a pistol grip only shotgun can be referred to as a "Title 1" weapon instead of a shotgun in a FFL's documentation.

It is not considered a handgun. The same applies to the semi- only 1919a4. By definition, a handgun is designed to be "held and fired" by one hand. As such, the 1919a4 is also considered a "Title 1" weapon.

cue7467
November 21, 2007, 02:40 PM
thanks for the clerification that must b why they sell them as if it were a handgun. Maybe I was jumping to the handgun assumption because you must be 21 to purchuse???

shop is in Westfield, IN

SLANTNOSE1
December 11, 2007, 06:51 PM
Just to throw in some additional fodder for the fire, take a look at the Auto-Ordinance 1927-A5 Pistol. The feds hated that weapon, they are also no longer available. It had a lot of the goodies that just ****** the ATF of completely. Vertical foregrip, a very short little barrel, ability to be used with a drum, 50, 100 round etc. they were a very neat little weapon. If you were lucky to be able to acquire one, they are the $hit. Check them out. i think that you will be dumbfounded with this cool little weapon. But like I said, they are very hard to find.:cool:

Bill DeShivs
December 11, 2007, 07:06 PM
There is possibly a state ruling that PG shotguns have to be sold as pistols. Tennessee had a ruling of this nature some years ago. Makes me wonder if I could legally carry a PG shotgun in Tenn. under my handgun carry permit.

Hkmp5sd
December 11, 2007, 10:38 PM
There is possibly a state ruling that PG shotguns have to be sold as pistols.

ATF ruled that since a PG shotgun has no shoulder stock, it does not meet the definition of a shotgun and therefore cannot be sold to anyone under 21 years of age. It is classified a "Title I Weapon", not a handgun.