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njtrigger
October 22, 2007, 10:35 PM
Do SWAT teams or police use automatic weapons?

evan1293
October 22, 2007, 10:41 PM
Some do. Mp5s are probably the most common LE, select fire weapon.

njtrigger
October 22, 2007, 10:45 PM
I like the MP5. So reliable and you can put a small burst on target so easily.

Even though its 9mm, its hard to believe that a 3-5 round burst from this weapon will not stop the target. The best thing about it is that you can put a few bursts on the target in seconds.

You can easily pump 6-10 bullets on the target with two quick coordinated bursts. I dont think anything is going to survive with 6-10 bullets even if it is 9mm.

Ruthless4christ
October 22, 2007, 11:03 PM
After 9/11 in nyc lots of regular NYPD cops were selected to recieve training with mp5s and ar/m16 platforms.

hey njtrigger, I see you never got charged by a rhino;)

evan1293
October 22, 2007, 11:04 PM
I like the MP5. So reliable and you can put a small burst on target so easily.

Me too. I want one :(

Capt Charlie
October 24, 2007, 11:43 AM
We actually have two; 8 M16A1's, compliments of Uncle Sam, and 8 Colt 9mm SMG's, sometimes referred to as the DEA Model. The 9's are, well... picture an M16 that went through the dryer and shrank :D.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27340&d=1191374810
(Yeah, I know; he forgot to extend the stock. We had fun kidding him over that later :D.)

Shane Tuttle
October 24, 2007, 07:17 PM
Did he get a "scope-eye", Capt? I know it may be a low recoiling gun, but a little snap on the brow from a hunk of metal never feels good...

Capt Charlie
October 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
Did he get a "scope-eye", Capt?
Note the furrowed brow. It wasn't furrowed on the first burst ;) :D.

Shane Tuttle
October 24, 2007, 07:40 PM
School of hard knocks.:D

I actually would advocate most LE depts. to have easy access to full automatics in whatever caliber and ammo they desire. That way, the playing field will be in the disadvantage of criminals...

Rookgun
October 25, 2007, 11:29 PM
Swat teams of course have fully automatic weapons.

In Southern California it was a little different obviously for the average officer. Until the north Hollywood bank robbery about ten years, typical LAPD officers didn't have anything more then 9mm handguns and 12 gauge shotguns stored in the trunk.

North Hollywood bank robbery video (http://www.stupidity.com/play-9107-The_Famous_North_Hollywood_Shootout.html)

Everything on you tube seemed to be done by idiotic teenagers. This best video I could find on short notice.

I know since then HelLA issues officers AR-15s to be in the trunk. Of course, if California wasn't so anti-gun that incident would have ended much quicker. The officers actually had to go to nearby gun stores in order to get more powerful firearms.

Erik
October 27, 2007, 07:28 PM
"Do SWAT teams or police use automatic weapons?"

Its the norm for tactical teams to have access to, as in regular issue, to automatic weapons.

It is not the norm for non-patrol units.

Ruthless4christ
October 28, 2007, 09:45 PM
"I actually would advocate most LE depts. to have easy access to full automatics in whatever caliber and ammo they desire."

I actually would advocate most private Citizens to have easy access to full automatics in whatever caliber and ammo THEY desire

:cool::D

Para Bellum
October 29, 2007, 04:16 PM
I dont think anything is going to survive with 6-10 bullets even if it is 9mm.
Wake up buddy, I can take 573 brainstem hits in 9mm but would instantly drop dead whe a .45 hits my pinky.

And - to the topic: Yes the do. MP5s, Glock 18 (Glock 17 Full Auto), and many .223 select-fire rifles. Multiple hits help if you can't shoot accurately. And most LEOs can't. They proof when competing.

GATMOG
October 29, 2007, 08:59 PM
9mm out of a longer SMG barrel pick up some serious velocity :D

don't understimate them!

Capt Charlie
October 29, 2007, 09:03 PM
9mm out of a longer SMG barrel pick up some serious velocity
True. It also picks up some serious pressures. That's why (at least in the Colt SMG's) we can use only NATO ammo. No +P or +P+ stuff.

VUPDblue
October 29, 2007, 09:38 PM
9mm out of a longer SMG barrel pick up some serious velocity

Not necessarily. I've done quite a bit of homework on this topic and I've found that the gains in velocity and pressure are marginal most of the time. And slight at best.

shooter_john
October 29, 2007, 09:49 PM
We have 2 UMP 40's, 1 Colt Subgun, 1 MP5, 2 M14's (w/ switch:D) and somewhere there is alledgedly a closet full of Uncle Sam's M4's and 16's all decked out that our Admin won't let us get our hands on:mad:. Beyond that everyone in Patrol is issued an AR, a less lethal (aka Shotgun) and a Glock.

Capt Charlie
October 30, 2007, 05:20 PM
...I've found that the gains in velocity and pressure are marginal most of the time. And slight at best.
Forgive the temporary thread hijack, and I had to double check to be sure, but yep, it's right there on the receiver, "9mm NATO". I'm genuinely curious VU; if not because of unsafe pressures, why are these SMG's restricted to the lower pressure NATO rounds?

VUPDblue
October 31, 2007, 08:38 AM
I guess my thinking that the NATO marking was to differentiate the caliber designation, not the loading, for .mil and .gov's who were likely to buy that rifle. Kinda like the stamp on the M16 that says 5.56. You can safely shoot all sorts of loads out of that rifle, not just M855. I have never seen it in print, or in a manual, where it is recommended to use lower pressure loads in an AR type subgun. A while ago I was doing lots of testing of various loads from my 16" carbine and then I tested the same with my 5.25" SBR. My research, as well as others', showed that velocity gains in the 16" were averaging 100-250 fps across all loadings of 9mm that I could come up with. This is all with factory 9mm loads, mind you, and the general understanding we came to is that the fast burning pistol powder used in pistol cartridges is used-up before the bullet leaves the barrel. Think about it, there isn't much of a fireball when you loose some rounds from that SMG. All the powder is burnt. Heck, history has shown that subguns like that love to eat heavy ammo like 147 and even 158 gr. bullets. Take the barrel off that Colt sometime and look at the construction of the chamber. It is built like an armored car. 9mm subguns can run much higher pressures than 9mm pistols. I think that 124gr. NATO loads are a little anemic from a subgun.

9mm1033
October 31, 2007, 09:23 AM
And most LEOs can't. They proof when competing.

Well duh, their training is a little different. Most civilian shooters probably wouldn't fair well in police scenario training.

shooter_john
October 31, 2007, 04:32 PM
Quote:
And most LEOs can't. They proof when competing.

"Well duh, their training is a little different. Most civilian shooters probably wouldn't fair well in police scenario training."

I am a LEO, and I would strongly disagree with your opinion there... Most police training takes place on a static line with a target x yards away, and you shoot it. Some more progressive agencies shoot combat courses and have better programs that COULD make cops better shooters, but most don't really care to be a good shot.
On the other hand, I have shot a couple of IDPA demo's (I can't compete because of my crappy shift) and did very well, and I will be the first to say that the type scenario's encountered in IDPA are very similar to what a LEO could be faced with. (Multiple targets, moving targets, SHOT PLACEMENT, etc.) You just have to keep in mind that IDPA is a game. There is nothing wrong with shooting those scenarios with a "tactical" mindset instead of a fast, fast, fast, win the game mindset.

James K
October 31, 2007, 08:50 PM
Well, I was a deputy sheriff for a while and I will tell you right now that if some of the police and deputies I was with on the range ever get hold of an auto weapon, I want to be two states over! When they can't hit a B-29 at 7 yards with the issue handgun, I sure don't want them waving an MP5 around.

I could tell tales, but this is Halloween and scary enough.

Jim

Yellowfin
October 31, 2007, 11:33 PM
I seem to recall reading a few articles about the Glock 18 and a couple of other well known select fire guns and they said that very rigorous training and qualification was necessary before one could carry them. The 18 in particular they were saying that you'd have to shoot Expert with the 17 first before they'd let you lay a finger on it. Something with that kind of cyclic rate in that small a package = instant LIABILITY in less that perfectly capable hands.

Is that still the case?

Johnny Guest
October 31, 2007, 11:55 PM
Most civilian shooters probably wouldn't fair well in police scenario training. Including most civilian police. I don't think the original question pertained to military units, though.

Civilian police agencies seldom have budgets that allows for extensive training with full automatic weapons for the rank and file - - Even the patrol units. Tactical units, SWAT teams, perhaps a couple of other specialized units may have sufficient ammo available to PROPERLY train their personnel in use of full auto fire.

The vast majority of civilian cops who have NOT been assigned to TAC, and who are really proficient with full auto either got training elsewhere or are hobbyists who have provided a LOT of their own ammo. - - And quite often their own machine gun, as well.

smenkhare
November 27, 2007, 05:56 AM
The SPG (new south wales' version of swat) has what looks like M16's or M4's

biglabsrule
December 5, 2007, 04:47 PM
like the MP5. So reliable and you can put a small burst on target so easily.

Even though its 9mm,

There is a 10mm varient... I've fired one on full auto, think it was FBI...

ERT Trauma
December 8, 2007, 06:56 PM
The SWAT team I work with carry suppressed MP5s & 1911s. Were are picking up 2 FA M16/M4s. If I were to carry a rifle it would be a 10inch M4. Don't trust 9mm with all the armor out there. JMHO

The Man
December 8, 2007, 11:42 PM
We Have Two Colt And Two MP5.:rolleyes:

Scriz
December 12, 2007, 05:23 AM
We rotate M16/M4s throughout the department. We are trained with them on semi, never auto. They said the auto's are cheaper than the Army's version of the M4 with 3 round bursts, which is why they get auto's. Weird, you'd think auto's were more expensive. :confused:

f8lranger4x4
December 12, 2007, 09:16 AM
You bet Ours do

suppressed_shooter
December 12, 2007, 07:20 PM
The cops I have trained are all issued fully automatic weapons. Of course, I've been training Afghan cops for the last year and a half, and their standard issue is one of several AK subtypes.

I have been told, but have not confirmed, that some, if not all, of the officers in one of my neighboring suburbs (Tigard, OR) carry MP-5s in the trunks. Semi-auto only unless a SGT or above unlocks the auto setting with some sort of a key that resembles a handcuff key. This is anecdotal only, though, not sure how reliable the information is.

Tatsumi67
January 6, 2008, 12:04 PM
I've actually interviewed (long story,gunsmithing project) the Glock armorer and Emegency Response Team (the local SWAT equivelent) member, and they are actually using Single Fire Only MP5s, because keeping anything else around or in patrol cars is too much of a security risk. They did have a few psuedo M4s (modified M16s bought from the national guard) that were full auto, but honestly it seemed unnecessary.

P.S. Im in Minneapolis.

parrothead2581
January 6, 2008, 04:37 PM
You betcha. MP5.

YukonKid
January 9, 2008, 08:45 PM
not here, all regular cops carry glocks or 1911's with shottys in the cars, i did some ride alongs to see if it was something i wanted to do. Our SWAT teams probably do though.

Edmond
January 12, 2008, 08:24 AM
The Colt 635 is a great gun!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/SMG635ML2.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/SMG635-Copie.jpg

SteelCore
January 12, 2008, 10:43 PM
I have a hard time imagining how LE would ever need full-auto fire rather than rapid semi-auto, especially since those in LE who have access to such weapons almost always outnumber their opponents and have heavy body armor to boot. Under such circumstances, is it really necessary to be able to shoot at a rate of 10-15 rounds per second (even in short bursts) rather than 5-6 rounds per second on semi? (Okay, I can see how the stopping power of a 9mm MP5 is helped by the auto capability.)

I'd also think that liability from stray rounds would be an issue, although I'm not sure how often SWAT teams get punished or successfully sued for anything they do. In any case, I cringe at the thought of police using suppressive fire or "spray & pray" in populated areas.

In any case, I have no real problem with police having auto weapons as long as they're used carefully and responsibly. I do have a problem with the general citizenry not being able to buy new auto weapons. This restriction is a blatant violation of the Second Amendment, which is meant to keep ultimate power in the hands of the general population instead of the government.

I've shot full-auto weapons and don't feel that they're indispensable at all (especially rifles), but these laws are still intended to keep the population under control, and that goes against everything this country was meant to stand for.

SteelCore
January 12, 2008, 11:00 PM
We rotate M16/M4s throughout the department. We are trained with them on semi, never auto. They said the auto's are cheaper than the Army's version of the M4 with 3 round bursts, which is why they get auto's. Weird, you'd think auto's were more expensive.I didn't know 3-round burst models were more expensive than full autos, but if they are, it could be because the trigger mechanism in the burst model is a little more intricate.

There really isn't that much difference between a full-auto M16 and a semi-only AR-15, so I would expect the prices on those to be almost identical.